| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"CyberDroog" |
| Date: |
11 Jun 2004 01:49:53 PM |
| Object: |
16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. |
The following is from a mailing list from Advocates for Self-Government, a
Libertarian group (http://www.theadvocates.org/). BTW, if you visit that
site, be sure to take The World's Smallest Political Quiz.
Over 7 million children are in non-government schooling---
about 5.25 million conventional private and religious
schools, and 2 million in home schools.
Every parent who refuses to allow the state to school
his/her children wins a victory for quality education and
the cause of freedom from government school indoctrination.
If you're glad these parents have separated **their**
families from state schooling, you might get as excited as
I am about this development:
The largest Protestant denomination in America---Southern
Baptists, with 16 million members---will be voting next
week on a resolution calling on their members to remove
their children from government schools!
It's very consideration is already causing the beginning
of a stir: Favorable articles have shown up in the Boston
Globe, the Wall Street Journal, WorldNetDaily, the
Washington Times. And the O'Reilly Factor is trying to
schedule one of the Baptists who submitted the resolution.
And vastly more attention would undoubtedly result if the
Southern Baptists actually pass a "get the kids out"
resolution. This will be so appalling to the mainstream
news that "Mr. Dan" Rather will be whining on the 6:00 news
and "60 Minutes" is sure to do a hit piece.
Pray for a slow news week and Time and Newsweek might make
it a cover story, full of dire predictions of the demise
of America if the Baptists pull their 4 million children
from the schools.
If you're not a Southern Baptist, or a Protestant, or even
a Christian, you may think this has nothing to do with
you, but it does.
1) You probably know people who are Southern Baptists, or
2) For sure, you know people who belong to other
denominations that might be interested in passing a
similar resolution in the future in their group.
This could be an important new front in the fight for
educational choice. Religious and denominational
differences should not divide us in our common desire to
expand school choice ... ending federal interference in
local schools and taking a major step toward making all
schooling private.
I am setting up a new organization---initially as part of
the Alliance for Separation of School & State---to promote
this concept in other groups.
We call it GetTheKidsOut.org.
What can you do TODAY to help move the Baptists in the
freedom-in-schooling direction?
1) send this email to everybody on your personal email
list who is religious, or likes the freedom philosophy, or
both. Ask them to send it to their friends.
2) post this email to any online newsgroups or discussion
forums you frequent.
3) CALL any Southern Baptists you know and urge them to
advise any "Messengers" (SOBAPT lingo for delegates to
their convention in Indianapolis next week) of this
resolution.
4) visit www.GetTheKidsOut.org and sign up for the monthly
online update on Get The Kids Out.
Thank you for reading this. I get too much email, too. :-)
But this is important and URGENT.
Yours,
Marshall Fritz
Interim Director, GetTheKidsOut.org
--
Our subconscious minds have no sense of humor, play no jokes and cannot
tell the difference between reality and an imagined thought or image. What
we continually think about eventually will manifest in our lives.
- Sidney Madwed
.
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| User: "Flashfire" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
12 Jun 2004 08:17:33 PM |
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|
CyberDroog wrote:
But I can't help but admire women who choose to let fate take it's
course. Who didn't like Julia Robert's in Steel Magnolias?
Oh yeah, great move. She gets pregnant, has the baby then dies, leaving the
poor little kid to be raised without a mother. Great choice, personally I
hate Julia Roberts, but I have to admit it was the best role she ever
played, because she died in it. I think the other cast memebers were far
superior that Roberts.
--
Regards Lee
Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of
enthusiasm. ~ Sir Winston Churchill
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
13 Jun 2004 11:21:46 PM |
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|
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 11:17:33 +1000, "Flashfire" <ramblinin@yahoo.com.au>
wrote:
CyberDroog wrote:
But I can't help but admire women who choose to let fate take it's
course. Who didn't like Julia Robert's in Steel Magnolias?
Oh yeah, great move. She gets pregnant, has the baby then dies, leaving the
poor little kid to be raised without a mother. Great choice, personally I
hate Julia Roberts, but I have to admit it was the best role she ever
played, because she died in it. I think the other cast memebers were far
superior that Roberts.
Some people feel being alive trumps having a living mother...
I don't really care for most Julia Roberts films, but I like that one.
Daryl Hannah was the thing I liked least about that movie.
--
ASPERSE, v.t. Maliciously to ascribe to another vicious actions which one
has not had the temptation and opportunity to commit.
- Ambrose Bierce
.
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| User: "Flashfire" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
13 Jun 2004 11:47:51 PM |
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|
CyberDroog wrote:
I don't really care for most Julia Roberts films, but I like that one.
Daryl Hannah was the thing I liked least about that movie.
Some people may do, but then I think its very bloody stupid to sacrifice
your life to have a child you will never raise. How much more I would have
admired the character if she had of been more like your brother and adopted
children she could raise with love, rather than leave a child motherless.
And you are right, Darryl Hannah was a PITA in that film, but she was still
better than Julia Roberts.
--
Regards Lee
Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of
enthusiasm. ~ Sir Winston Churchill
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|
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
14 Jun 2004 07:03:44 PM |
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|
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:47:51 +1000, "Flashfire" <ramblinin@yahoo.com.au>
wrote:
CyberDroog wrote:
I don't really care for most Julia Roberts films, but I like that one.
Daryl Hannah was the thing I liked least about that movie.
Some people may do, but then I think its very bloody stupid to sacrifice
your life to have a child you will never raise. How much more I would have
admired the character if she had of been more like your brother and adopted
children she could raise with love, rather than leave a child motherless.
I find it impossible to judge such a thing. Many people feel they gain a
step towards eternal life by passing on their genes. It's a biological
imperative after all.
--
FAMOUS, adj. Conspicuously miserable.
- Ambrose Bierce
.
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| User: "SortaLily" |
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| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
14 Jun 2004 07:12:11 PM |
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|
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
news:k3fsc050cahurgi1k55pqtup5r1d8rh49s@4ax.com...
| On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:47:51 +1000, "Flashfire" <ramblinin@yahoo.com.au>
| wrote:
|
| >|
| I find it impossible to judge such a thing. Many people feel they gain a
| step towards eternal life by passing on their genes. It's a biological
| imperative after all.
|
so i ask again .. somebody like me who can't get pregnant .. what does that
make me? less of a woman? less of a good mother.
i dote like crazy on my sister's girls .. my brothers's son and daughter ..
i would love to adopt a bunch of children if i could ..
.
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
14 Jun 2004 11:25:47 PM |
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|
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:12:11 -0400, "SortaLily" <up.down@near.far> wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
news:k3fsc050cahurgi1k55pqtup5r1d8rh49s@4ax.com...
| On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:47:51 +1000, "Flashfire" <ramblinin@yahoo.com.au>
| wrote:
|
| >|
| I find it impossible to judge such a thing. Many people feel they gain a
| step towards eternal life by passing on their genes. It's a biological
| imperative after all.
|
so i ask again .. somebody like me who can't get pregnant .. what does that
make me? less of a woman? less of a good mother.
i dote like crazy on my sister's girls .. my brothers's son and daughter ..
i would love to adopt a bunch of children if i could ..
Not being able to get pregnant doesn't negate the biological imperative.
And thank God... it would be a pity if women not able to become pregnant
(or men not able to impregnate a woman) automatically lost their sex drive.
--
ARENA, n. In politics, an imaginary rat-pit in which the statesman
wrestles with his record.
- Ambrose Bierce
.
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| User: "SortaLily" |
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| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
14 Jun 2004 07:19:35 PM |
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|
so would you do it? die so you could father a child?
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
news:k3fsc050cahurgi1k55pqtup5r1d8rh49s@4ax.com...
| On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:47:51 +1000, "Flashfire" <ramblinin@yahoo.com.au>
| wrote:
|
| >CyberDroog wrote:
| >
| >> I don't really care for most Julia Roberts films, but I like that one.
| >> Daryl Hannah was the thing I liked least about that movie.
| >
| >Some people may do, but then I think its very bloody stupid to sacrifice
| >your life to have a child you will never raise. How much more I would
have
| >admired the character if she had of been more like your brother and
adopted
| >children she could raise with love, rather than leave a child motherless.
|
| I find it impossible to judge such a thing. Many people feel they gain a
| step towards eternal life by passing on their genes. It's a biological
| imperative after all.
|
|
| --
| FAMOUS, adj. Conspicuously miserable.
|
| - Ambrose Bierce
|
.
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
14 Jun 2004 11:29:17 PM |
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|
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:19:35 -0400, "SortaLily" <up.down@near.far> wrote:
so would you do it? die so you could father a child?
Well let's see... do some past affairs with married women who had violent
husbands count?
Of course any fathering instinct is much different from the mothering
instinct...
--
The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly
teaches me to suspect that my own is also.
- Mark Twain
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
12 Jun 2004 08:15:50 PM |
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|
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:29:03 GMT, CyberDroog
<CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
But I can't help but admire women who choose to let fate take it's course.
Who didn't like Julia Robert's in Steel Magnolias?
well... she deliberately decided to get pregnant. Her doctor had
told her she shouldn't years before.
But she did anyway.... to save her marriage.
Bad reason to have kids.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
13 Jun 2004 11:20:28 PM |
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|
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 01:15:50 GMT, wombn <wombnhearmeroar@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:29:03 GMT, CyberDroog
<CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
But I can't help but admire women who choose to let fate take it's course.
Who didn't like Julia Robert's in Steel Magnolias?
well... she deliberately decided to get pregnant. Her doctor had
told her she shouldn't years before.
But she did anyway.... to save her marriage.
Bad reason to have kids.
I got the impression she just wanted a child of her own, not adopted.
--
BIGOT, n. One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion
that you do not entertain.
- Ambrose Bierce
.
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| User: "SortaLily" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
12 Jun 2004 08:55:41 PM |
|
|
really? you are a doctor and know this? you have the stats?
you admire women who leave it up to fate? would you put your life on the
line like that? would you put your wife's life on the line?
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
news:ff0nc0tem1sb9qba12ukaejm6bqanhmqk4@4ax.com...
| On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 16:07:26 -0400, "SortaLily" <up.down@near.far> wrote:
|
| >it is not 'convenience' if the mother will die if she carries to term.
|
| That is pretty rare. A minute portion of the millions of abortions. But
I
| agree that in such a case, it is not a matter of convenience. When it's a
| matter of either the mother's life or the child's, that should be left up
| to the mother to decide.
|
| But I can't help but admire women who choose to let fate take it's course.
| Who didn't like Julia Robert's in Steel Magnolias?
|
| >what i want to know is do the pro-life people support adoption ....
| >adoption creats famlies. yes the birth mother must give up her child ..
| >but she is creating a family ... pain and joy at the same time
|
| My brother is pro-life and he has adopted six children.
|
|
| --
| POLITICS, n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of
| principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage.
|
| - Ambrose Bierce
|
.
|
|
|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
13 Jun 2004 11:25:19 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 21:55:41 -0400, "SortaLily" <up.down@near.far> wrote:
really? you are a doctor and know this? you have the stats?
you admire women who leave it up to fate? would you put your life on the
line like that? would you put your wife's life on the line?
The stats are widely available. Abortions in America are performed
primarily for convenience, not medical necessity.
--
I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the
answer.
- Douglas Adams
.
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| User: "Flashfire" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
12 Jun 2004 08:14:17 PM |
|
|
SortaLily wrote:
it is not 'convenience' if the mother will die if she carries to term.
what i want to know is do the pro-life people support adoption ....
adoption creats famlies. yes the birth mother must give up her
child .. but she is creating a family ... pain and joy at the same
time
I dont think its about convenience at all, I think its about responsibility,
the realisation that the woman is not CAPABLE of caring for a child, neither
emotionally, financially or physically. Then there is the question of rape
induced pregnancy. Why should a woman have to go through the trauma of
carrying and giving birth to a child, conceived in violence. Every child
should be a wanted child, every child should be allowed the opportunity to
grow and be loved and cherished. Personally I would rather see more
effective contraception being made available so that the pregnancy is
prevented rather than aborted. But I have no qualms about abortion for the
right reasons.
--
Regards Lee
Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of
enthusiasm. ~ Sir Winston Churchill
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|
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|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
13 Jun 2004 11:18:41 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 11:14:17 +1000, "Flashfire" <ramblinin@yahoo.com.au>
wrote:
SortaLily wrote:
it is not 'convenience' if the mother will die if she carries to term.
what i want to know is do the pro-life people support adoption ....
adoption creats famlies. yes the birth mother must give up her
child .. but she is creating a family ... pain and joy at the same
time
I dont think its about convenience at all, I think its about responsibility,
the realisation that the woman is not CAPABLE of caring for a child, neither
emotionally, financially or physically. Then there is the question of rape
induced pregnancy. Why should a woman have to go through the trauma of
carrying and giving birth to a child, conceived in violence. Every child
should be a wanted child, every child should be allowed the opportunity to
grow and be loved and cherished. Personally I would rather see more
effective contraception being made available so that the pregnancy is
prevented rather than aborted. But I have no qualms about abortion for the
right reasons.
Adoption is the answer to a woman not being able to care for a child. As
for rape, what violence did the baby engage in?
--
People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's safer to
harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
.
|
|
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| User: "Flashfire" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
13 Jun 2004 11:58:32 PM |
|
|
CyberDroog wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 11:14:17 +1000, "Flashfire"
<ramblinin@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
SortaLily wrote:
it is not 'convenience' if the mother will die if she carries to
term. what i want to know is do the pro-life people support
adoption .... adoption creats famlies. yes the birth mother must
give up her
child .. but she is creating a family ... pain and joy at the same
time
I dont think its about convenience at all, I think its about
responsibility, the realisation that the woman is not CAPABLE of
caring for a child, neither emotionally, financially or physically.
Then there is the question of rape induced pregnancy. Why should a
woman have to go through the trauma of carrying and giving birth to
a child, conceived in violence. Every child should be a wanted
child, every child should be allowed the opportunity to grow and be
loved and cherished. Personally I would rather see more effective
contraception being made available so that the pregnancy is
prevented rather than aborted. But I have no qualms about abortion
for the right reasons.
Adoption is the answer to a woman not being able to care for a child.
As for rape, what violence did the baby engage in?
Oh yeah lets have thousands more unwanted, unloved, neglected abused
children, not all kids are adopted. Lots of children are raised in
institutions, lots of them are raised by their uncaring parents, how many
people here are the products of neglected homes, you say the child doesnt
get a choice to be aborted, who gave us the choice to get born? Huh? I never
asked for this life, it was thrust upon me by the rutting of two animals in
heat who gave absolutely no consideration for the life they were
creating.....
And as far as your rape scenario the "baby" was forcibliby impregnated into
an unwilling woman's womb, thats an act of violence and the "baby" is
nothing more than an opportunistic parasite so to speak and if any other
parasite infested living tissue it would be cut out...
--
Regards Lee
Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of
enthusiasm. ~ Sir Winston Churchill
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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|
|
|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
14 Jun 2004 07:09:23 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:58:32 +1000, "Flashfire" <ramblinin@yahoo.com.au>
wrote:
Oh yeah lets have thousands more unwanted, unloved, neglected abused
children, not all kids are adopted. Lots of children are raised in
institutions, lots of them are raised by their uncaring parents, how many
people here are the products of neglected homes, you say the child doesnt
get a choice to be aborted, who gave us the choice to get born? Huh? I never
asked for this life, it was thrust upon me by the rutting of two animals in
heat who gave absolutely no consideration for the life they were
creating.....
It's unfortunate that you feel that way. I have felt the same way at
times. But it's a hell of a decision to make for someone else.
And as far as your rape scenario the "baby" was forcibliby impregnated into
an unwilling woman's womb, thats an act of violence and the "baby" is
nothing more than an opportunistic parasite so to speak and if any other
parasite infested living tissue it would be cut out...
Children as parasites. That's the great gift of modern thinking.
--
DISCRIMINATE, v.i. To note the particulars in which one person or thing
is, if possible, more objectionable than another.
- Ambrose Bierce
.
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|
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| User: "Flashfire" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
14 Jun 2004 10:27:41 PM |
|
|
CyberDroog wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:58:32 +1000, "Flashfire"
<ramblinin@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
Oh yeah lets have thousands more unwanted, unloved, neglected abused
children, not all kids are adopted. Lots of children are raised in
institutions, lots of them are raised by their uncaring parents, how
many people here are the products of neglected homes, you say the
child doesnt get a choice to be aborted, who gave us the choice to
get born? Huh? I never asked for this life, it was thrust upon me by
the rutting of two animals in heat who gave absolutely no
consideration for the life they were creating.....
It's unfortunate that you feel that way. I have felt the same way at
times. But it's a hell of a decision to make for someone else.
What gave my parents the right to bring me into a world that I want no part
of. You pro life people are all the same, life at any cost. You force your
opinions and make decisions for everyone else don't you? You would force a
teenager to give birth to a baby that was the product of incestrous rape,
you would force a woman to die in labour rather than abort the foetus that
was killing her. You force your decisions on everyone else and deny women
the right to choose for thier own bodies....and condemn them for choosing
thier own life over that of the unborn. You murder doctors and bomb clinics
to stop what you call murder, what hypocrites you are. You would rather see
a children living in misery and abuse, just so you can pat yourselves on the
back and say how wonderful you are you stopped an abortion. Well I guess I
am a bit more realistic. QUALITY OF LIFE is far more important to me, than
life for the sake of it. And I advocate that a person's quality of life is
far more important than that of an unborn embroyonic celluar structure. And
that living children have the right to be wanted, loved, nurtured and cared
for, not neglected, mistreated and abused.
And as far as your rape scenario the "baby" was forcibliby
impregnated into an unwilling woman's womb, thats an act of violence
and the "baby" is nothing more than an opportunistic parasite so to
speak and if any other parasite infested living tissue it would be
cut out...
Children as parasites. That's the great gift of modern thinking.
Well depends on definition doesnt it, and you have managed to advance your
definitions with each post, we go from pregnancy to baby to child. How well
you twist things to suit your ends. But my dear little manipulative friend,
in my opinion a three week embroyoic growth is neither baby nor child. Its a
cellular growth clinging to the walls of the uterus. Not yet a baby nor a
child. And that my friend, is a more realistic definition than what you are
on about. Oh and while you are at it, read your history, in Ancient Rome
which was considered the centre of the modern world a child under the age of
one year was not considered human, and if you killed it, you could not be
charged with murder. Abortions thrived then. Many other civilisations had
similar laws, governing when a child was considered viable as a human being,
even today, not all civilisations believe that conception is the begining of
viable life. So aborting embryonic parasites is not a great gift of modern
thinking
You and I have had the abortion debate before, you will not change my
opinion, I will not change yours. Lets agree to disagree and let it go at
that.
--
Regards Lee
Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of
enthusiasm. ~ Sir Winston Churchill
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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|
|
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
14 Jun 2004 11:41:21 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:27:41 +1000, "Flashfire" <ramblinin@yahoo.com.au>
wrote:
CyberDroog wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:58:32 +1000, "Flashfire"
<ramblinin@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
Oh yeah lets have thousands more unwanted, unloved, neglected abused
children, not all kids are adopted. Lots of children are raised in
institutions, lots of them are raised by their uncaring parents, how
many people here are the products of neglected homes, you say the
child doesnt get a choice to be aborted, who gave us the choice to
get born? Huh? I never asked for this life, it was thrust upon me by
the rutting of two animals in heat who gave absolutely no
consideration for the life they were creating.....
It's unfortunate that you feel that way. I have felt the same way at
times. But it's a hell of a decision to make for someone else.
What gave my parents the right to bring me into a world that I want no part
of.
Did you tell them you wanted no part of it before they conceived you? Of
course not. Suicide statistics indicate that most people seem to choose
life. But you do have a choice.
You pro life people are all the same, life at any cost. You force your
opinions and make decisions for everyone else don't you? You would force a
teenager to give birth to a baby that was the product of incestrous rape,
you would force a woman to die in labour rather than abort the foetus that
was killing her.
I specifically stated that in cases of dire medical need the decision
should be left up to the woman. But then pro-death people are all the
same... in their minds *every* pregnancy is a dire risk to the woman's
life.
You force your decisions on everyone else and deny women
the right to choose for thier own bodies....and condemn them for choosing
thier own life over that of the unborn. You murder doctors and bomb clinics
to stop what you call murder, what hypocrites you are. You would rather see
a children living in misery and abuse, just so you can pat yourselves on the
back and say how wonderful you are you stopped an abortion. Well I guess I
am a bit more realistic. QUALITY OF LIFE is far more important to me, than
life for the sake of it. And I advocate that a person's quality of life is
far more important than that of an unborn embroyonic celluar structure. And
that living children have the right to be wanted, loved, nurtured and cared
for, not neglected, mistreated and abused.
I already know your opinion on quality of life. Would you also be in favor
of killing children with disabilities? How about aiding in the suicide of
every teenager after their first breakup?
The answer to your concerns is very simple. Women who don't want children
give them up for adoption. Infants are the easiest to find homes for.
And as far as your rape scenario the "baby" was forcibliby
impregnated into an unwilling woman's womb, thats an act of violence
and the "baby" is nothing more than an opportunistic parasite so to
speak and if any other parasite infested living tissue it would be
cut out...
Children as parasites. That's the great gift of modern thinking.
Well depends on definition doesnt it, and you have managed to advance your
definitions with each post, we go from pregnancy to baby to child. How well
you twist things to suit your ends. But my dear little manipulative friend,
in my opinion a three week embroyoic growth is neither baby nor child. Its a
cellular growth clinging to the walls of the uterus. Not yet a baby nor a
child. And that my friend, is a more realistic definition than what you are
on about. Oh and while you are at it, read your history, in Ancient Rome
We had this discussion some time ago about the murder of the elderly in
Holland. Knowing that your opinion of the elderly as used up, worn out,
and ready to be put out of everyone else's misery leaves me rather content
with my definitions.
--
OBSERVATORY, n. A place where astronomers conjecture away the guesses of
their predecessors.
- Ambrose Bierce
.
|
|
|
| User: "SortaLily" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
14 Jun 2004 11:46:33 PM |
|
|
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
news:ususc0phi92o2jej3ibq7rrgtdhku3da0a@4ax.com...
| On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:27:41 +1000, "Flashfire" <ramblinin@yahoo.com.au>
| wrote:
|
| >CyberDroog wrote:
| >> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:58:32 +1000, "Flashfire"
| >> <ramblinin@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
| >>
|| >>
| >> It's unfortunate that you feel that way. I have felt the same way at
| |
| The answer to your concerns is very simple. Women who don't want children
| give them up for adoption. Infants are the easiest to find homes for.
|
yes just about everybody who is looking at adoption wants a baby .. but
then there the children who are odler .. taken away from their parents
because of neglect or abuse .. who wants them? not very many people ..
.
|
|
|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
15 Jun 2004 03:59:18 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 00:46:33 -0400, "SortaLily" <up.down@near.far> wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
news:ususc0phi92o2jej3ibq7rrgtdhku3da0a@4ax.com...
| On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:27:41 +1000, "Flashfire" <ramblinin@yahoo.com.au>
| wrote:
|
| >CyberDroog wrote:
| >> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:58:32 +1000, "Flashfire"
| >> <ramblinin@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
| >>
|| >>
| >> It's unfortunate that you feel that way. I have felt the same way at
| |
| The answer to your concerns is very simple. Women who don't want children
| give them up for adoption. Infants are the easiest to find homes for.
|
yes just about everybody who is looking at adoption wants a baby .. but
then there the children who are odler .. taken away from their parents
because of neglect or abuse .. who wants them? not very many people ..
Well, my brother took six of them. Only one was an infant - the rest were
eight or older. There are many others who will take such children also.
--
LANGUAGE, n. The music with which we charm the serpents guarding
another's treasure.
- Ambrose Bierce
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Flashfire" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
15 Jun 2004 12:18:53 AM |
|
|
CyberDroog wrote:
Did you tell them you wanted no part of it before they conceived you?
Of course not. Suicide statistics indicate that most people seem to
choose life. But you do have a choice.
What choice? You would deny me my choices, if I wanted to commit suicide for
whatever reason, you would do all in your power to deprive me of the choice.
if I was sick with a terminal illness you would force me to live in pain
with no quality of life to justify your life at all costs belief system. You
would deny me the dignity of being allowed to make a choice.
I specifically stated that in cases of dire medical need the decision
should be left up to the woman. But then pro-death people are all the
same... in their minds *every* pregnancy is a dire risk to the woman's
life.
Not to me they are not, every pregnancy should be a wanted pregnancy with
the ultimate outcome a successful delivery of a living child, who is wanted
by the parent or willing to be placed with parents who do want it.
I already know your opinion on quality of life. Would you also be in
favor of killing children with disabilities? How about aiding in the
suicide of every teenager after their first breakup?
Most certainly I am in favor or the end of suffering for children with
severe disabilities, if that is the choice of the primary carer. As far as
youth suicide. Thats a whole different concept. Who is to deny anyone the
right of choice. You? Me? I choose to give a choice, you force your view
regardless of the quality of life of the individual, life at all costs is
not quality of life.
The answer to your concerns is very simple. Women who don't want
children give them up for adoption. Infants are the easiest to find
homes for.
Round and round we go, a woman should not be forced into being an incubator
for others. What about her feelings, what about her mental health? and what
about the children who are not given up as infants, what about the children
who are abused, neglected, traumatised and then taken from thier unfit
parents to be raised in foster homes where there is the possibility of
further abuses, not all infants are adopted. Not all children are wanted by
anyone at any stage of thier lives.
We had this discussion some time ago about the murder of the elderly
in Holland. Knowing that your opinion of the elderly as used up,
worn out,
and ready to be put out of everyone else's misery leaves me rather
content with my definitions.
You dont know my opinion at all, you continue to put your emphasis on what
you think I believe. So I will state it once more. CHOICE by the person
involved, not you, not me. If an elderly person considers thier quality of
life to be diminished to the point where they no longer wish to live, then
they and only they should have the CHOICE to end thier suffering. You would
deny thier choice, I do not.
--
Regards Lee
Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of
enthusiasm. ~ Sir Winston Churchill
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
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|
|
|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
15 Jun 2004 04:12:45 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:18:53 +1000, "Flashfire" <ramblinin@yahoo.com.au>
wrote:
CyberDroog wrote:
Did you tell them you wanted no part of it before they conceived you?
Of course not. Suicide statistics indicate that most people seem to
choose life. But you do have a choice.
What choice? You would deny me my choices, if I wanted to commit suicide for
whatever reason, you would do all in your power to deprive me of the choice.
No I wouldn't. I would deprive a doctor of his license to practice if he
helped you. But you are free to do as you wish. And as much as you claim
to hate life, you are still here. That speaks volumes.
if I was sick with a terminal illness you would force me to live in pain
with no quality of life to justify your life at all costs belief system. You
would deny me the dignity of being allowed to make a choice.
Again, I would do no such thing.
I specifically stated that in cases of dire medical need the decision
should be left up to the woman. But then pro-death people are all the
same... in their minds *every* pregnancy is a dire risk to the woman's
life.
Not to me they are not, every pregnancy should be a wanted pregnancy with
the ultimate outcome a successful delivery of a living child, who is wanted
by the parent or willing to be placed with parents who do want it.
Do you have any age limit for the disposal of an unwanted child?
I already know your opinion on quality of life. Would you also be in
favor of killing children with disabilities? How about aiding in the
suicide of every teenager after their first breakup?
Most certainly I am in favor or the end of suffering for children with
severe disabilities, if that is the choice of the primary carer.
The choice of the caregiver? Not the choice of the child?!
That is flat out genocide.
--
MONDAY, n. In Christian countries, the day after the baseball game.
- Ambrose Bierce
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Janithor" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
14 Jun 2004 10:37:58 PM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
Flashfire wrote:
CyberDroog wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:58:32 +1000, "Flashfire"
<ramblinin@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
Oh yeah lets have thousands more unwanted, unloved, neglected abused
children, not all kids are adopted. Lots of children are raised in
institutions, lots of them are raised by their uncaring parents, how
many people here are the products of neglected homes, you say the
child doesnt get a choice to be aborted, who gave us the choice to
get born? Huh? I never asked for this life, it was thrust upon me by
the rutting of two animals in heat who gave absolutely no
consideration for the life they were creating.....
It's unfortunate that you feel that way. I have felt the same way at
times. But it's a hell of a decision to make for someone else.
What gave my parents the right to bring me into a world that I want no part
of. You pro life people are all the same, life at any cost. You force your
opinions and make decisions for everyone else don't you? You would force a
teenager to give birth to a baby that was the product of incestrous rape,
you would force a woman to die in labour rather than abort the foetus that
was killing her. You force your decisions on everyone else and deny women
the right to choose for thier own bodies....and condemn them for choosing
thier own life over that of the unborn. You murder doctors and bomb clinics
to stop what you call murder, what hypocrites you are. You would rather see
a children living in misery and abuse,
I'm Anti-Choice, and this doesn't describe me, so please don't say we're
all the same.
just so you can pat yourselves on the
back and say how wonderful you are you stopped an abortion. Well I guess I
am a bit more realistic. QUALITY OF LIFE is far more important to me, than
life for the sake of it. And I advocate that a person's quality of life is
far more important than that of an unborn embroyonic celluar structure. And
that living children have the right to be wanted, loved, nurtured and cared
for, not neglected, mistreated and abused.
The problem is that this is all predicated on the idea that the fetus is
not innocent human life. What if the fetus is delivered? At birth +10
minutes, it's human life, and at birth -10 minutes, it's not? If you
take these arguments, then 5 month infants living in these conditions
should be killed, since quality of life is more important. Most people
would say this is ludicrous (although some extreme Pro-Choicers advocate
the right to kill at birth + 1 month).
So, once again, Pro-Choice is predicated on the fetus not being human.
If you allow that it's innocent human life, then all the other arguments
fall apart.
This is a debate where neither side will convince the other. I don't
understand how anyone can intuitively accept abortion as something
acceptable. Completely baffles me.
And my original question remainds unanswered: how can people advocate
the right to destroy your own fetus, but you can't decide where it goes
to school once it's born? That baffles me too. I thought Pro-Choice
was about...choice?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Flashfire" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
14 Jun 2004 11:38:23 PM |
|
|
Janithor wrote:
I'm Anti-Choice, and this doesn't describe me, so please don't say
we're
all the same.
I was under the impression that I was talking to cyber droog, not you
Janithor, but I note you identify as anti choice not pro life. And quite
frankly I do believe that all pro lifers are the same, they have no regard
for the individual, neither the mother nor the unborn.
The problem is that this is all predicated on the idea that the fetus
is
not innocent human life. What if the fetus is delivered? At birth
+10 minutes, it's human life, and at birth -10 minutes, it's not? If
you
take these arguments, then 5 month infants living in these conditions
should be killed, since quality of life is more important. Most
people would say this is ludicrous (although some extreme
Pro-Choicers advocate
the right to kill at birth + 1 month).
Ahhh read my posts, I think you will see I am talking about embryo's not
foetuses. However if you want to argue that way as far as I am concerned it
is the mother's/father's choice. If the mother is in danger of dying in
labour and its a case of destroy the mother or destroy the child, how can
you tell me that letting an adult woman die, who is already a viable member
of the community, is more advantageous than letting an unborn foetus or a
newborn die. And as I am also a believer in eugenics and euthanasia, I think
the whole argument is moot. Because I pretty well believe that a child born
severly retarded or with a terminal illness that has no hope of quality of
life, should be destroyed, or more to the point, made comfortable without
drugs to prolong life/suffering regardless of age. I have a living will,
that states that if I am brain damaged and in a vegetative state then I am
to be denied all medical treatment which may prolong my life. So yeah I am
pro choice to the extreme. But its my choices about me and my life, I don't
want to choose for anyone else. But I want the laws to reflect people's
right to choose what they want for themselves and their children, born and
unborn. I get fed up with pro lifer's who deny me my right to choose what I
want to do with my body. These same people, who do nothing about the
millions of embryos that are destroyed in laboratories every year as part of
failed medical experiments. But abuse me, for wanting the right to abortion
on demand. Once again, they are hypocrites.
So, once again, Pro-Choice is predicated on the fetus not being human.
If you allow that it's innocent human life, then all the other
arguments fall apart.
I am not arguing innocence or not, I personally think its a stupid argument,
what the hell has innocence got to do with whether a woman who is incapable
of caring for a child has an abortion or not? Innocence suggests to me a
level of religious belief, the whole concept of original sin. I don't
believe in it. So there is no innocence or guilt attached to the unborn,
scientifically its an embryonic cellular structure in the process of
development, not an innocent baby, thats giving it an identity/personality
trait that has not yet been established.
This is a debate where neither side will convince the other. I don't
understand how anyone can intuitively accept abortion as something
acceptable. Completely baffles me.
Easy, you are a man, you have never been in the position of having a being
growing inside of you, living off you, knowing that you have to spend at
minimum 9 months nurturing it, at maximum the rest of your life somehow
being responsible for it. Then give birth to it in agony and then decide
whether or not you have the strength to keep it and raise it, or give it up
to someone who can. I have had an abortion, I have also had 2 miscarriages.
Which upset me the most? The miscarriages, because I wanted those children.
The choice to not have them was not mine, it was natures. The abortion didnt
upset me in the slightest, because I did not want that child, because I knew
I was not in a fit mental or emotional state to carry it to term and birth
it. I knew that I was not capable at that time in my life of giving that
child the best I could offer it, I had already (in my opinion) proved that I
was incapable of caring for a child. So why bring another one into the world
that I was not capable of caring for. But I also knew I could not carry it
and birth it and give it up either. It was better for me to abort and I have
never regretted that choice.
And my original question remainds unanswered: how can people advocate
the right to destroy your own fetus, but you can't decide where it
goes
to school once it's born? That baffles me too. I thought Pro-Choice
was about...choice?
I never saw the original question, I was responding to Cyberdroog's life at
all cost pro life argument. Personally I think all kids should be schooled
in communal schools with open plan learning stystems in place. I think
parents should have a stronger role in the actual education of thier
children and that schools should not be breeding grounds of discontent. But
thats just a dream I have.
--
Regards Lee
Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of
enthusiasm. ~ Sir Winston Churchill
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
.
|
|
|
| User: "SortaLily" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
14 Jun 2004 11:42:36 PM |
|
|
okay i'll toss another log on the flame fire ..
what about an ectopic (spelling?) pregency .. the tiny bucnh of cells from
spirm and egg start to grow in the woman's tupes and not
her uterus .. there is no way that can be taken to term. mother will die
... growing baby will die.. what happens then?
"Flashfire" <ramblinin@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:40ce7d45$1_2@127.0.0.1...
| Janithor wrote:
|
| > I'm Anti-Choice, and this doesn't describe me, so please don't say
| > we're
| > all the same.
|
| I was under the impression that I was talking to cyber droog, not you
| Janithor, but I note you identify as anti choice not pro life. And quite
| frankly I do believe that all pro lifers are the same, they have no regard
| for the individual, neither the mother nor the unborn.
|
| > The problem is that this is all predicated on the idea that the fetus
| > is
| > not innocent human life. What if the fetus is delivered? At birth
| > +10 minutes, it's human life, and at birth -10 minutes, it's not? If
| > you
| > take these arguments, then 5 month infants living in these conditions
| > should be killed, since quality of life is more important. Most
| > people would say this is ludicrous (although some extreme
| > Pro-Choicers advocate
| > the right to kill at birth + 1 month).
|
| Ahhh read my posts, I think you will see I am talking about embryo's not
| foetuses. However if you want to argue that way as far as I am concerned
it
| is the mother's/father's choice. If the mother is in danger of dying in
| labour and its a case of destroy the mother or destroy the child, how can
| you tell me that letting an adult woman die, who is already a viable
member
| of the community, is more advantageous than letting an unborn foetus or a
| newborn die. And as I am also a believer in eugenics and euthanasia, I
think
| the whole argument is moot. Because I pretty well believe that a child
born
| severly retarded or with a terminal illness that has no hope of quality of
| life, should be destroyed, or more to the point, made comfortable without
| drugs to prolong life/suffering regardless of age. I have a living will,
| that states that if I am brain damaged and in a vegetative state then I am
| to be denied all medical treatment which may prolong my life. So yeah I am
| pro choice to the extreme. But its my choices about me and my life, I
don't
| want to choose for anyone else. But I want the laws to reflect people's
| right to choose what they want for themselves and their children, born and
| unborn. I get fed up with pro lifer's who deny me my right to choose what
I
| want to do with my body. These same people, who do nothing about the
| millions of embryos that are destroyed in laboratories every year as part
of
| failed medical experiments. But abuse me, for wanting the right to
abortion
| on demand. Once again, they are hypocrites.
|
| > So, once again, Pro-Choice is predicated on the fetus not being human.
| > If you allow that it's innocent human life, then all the other
| > arguments fall apart.
|
| I am not arguing innocence or not, I personally think its a stupid
argument,
| what the hell has innocence got to do with whether a woman who is
incapable
| of caring for a child has an abortion or not? Innocence suggests to me a
| level of religious belief, the whole concept of original sin. I don't
| believe in it. So there is no innocence or guilt attached to the unborn,
| scientifically its an embryonic cellular structure in the process of
| development, not an innocent baby, thats giving it an identity/personality
| trait that has not yet been established.
|
| > This is a debate where neither side will convince the other. I don't
| > understand how anyone can intuitively accept abortion as something
| > acceptable. Completely baffles me.
|
| Easy, you are a man, you have never been in the position of having a being
| growing inside of you, living off you, knowing that you have to spend at
| minimum 9 months nurturing it, at maximum the rest of your life somehow
| being responsible for it. Then give birth to it in agony and then decide
| whether or not you have the strength to keep it and raise it, or give it
up
| to someone who can. I have had an abortion, I have also had 2
miscarriages.
| Which upset me the most? The miscarriages, because I wanted those
children.
| The choice to not have them was not mine, it was natures. The abortion
didnt
| upset me in the slightest, because I did not want that child, because I
knew
| I was not in a fit mental or emotional state to carry it to term and birth
| it. I knew that I was not capable at that time in my life of giving that
| child the best I could offer it, I had already (in my opinion) proved that
I
| was incapable of caring for a child. So why bring another one into the
world
| that I was not capable of caring for. But I also knew I could not carry it
| and birth it and give it up either. It was better for me to abort and I
have
| never regretted that choice.
|
|
| > And my original question remainds unanswered: how can people advocate
| > the right to destroy your own fetus, but you can't decide where it
| > goes
| > to school once it's born? That baffles me too. I thought Pro-Choice
| > was about...choice?
|
| I never saw the original question, I was responding to Cyberdroog's life
at
| all cost pro life argument. Personally I think all kids should be schooled
| in communal schools with open plan learning stystems in place. I think
| parents should have a stronger role in the actual education of thier
| children and that schools should not be breeding grounds of discontent.
But
| thats just a dream I have.
|
|
|
| --
| Regards Lee
|
| Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of
| enthusiasm. ~ Sir Winston Churchill
|
|
|
| Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
| ----------------------------------------------------------
| ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
| ----------------------------------------------------------
| http://www.usenet.com
|
|
| ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
| http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000
Newsgroups
| ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption
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|
|
|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
15 Jun 2004 03:57:43 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 00:42:36 -0400, "SortaLily" <up.down@near.far> wrote:
okay i'll toss another log on the flame fire ..
what about an ectopic (spelling?) pregency .. the tiny bucnh of cells from
spirm and egg start to grow in the woman's tupes and not
her uterus .. there is no way that can be taken to term. mother will die
.. growing baby will die.. what happens then?
That is one of those situations that medical science can truly judge to be
a failure of nature. There is no chance for either life to survive.
That is a situation where even a pro-life doctor will perform an abortion.
--
"He will place a tax on the air you breathe and on the bread you eat; he
will give you a legislation which is as legitimate as it is unjust and
instead of reasons, he'll give you laws. These will grow in the course of
time, until you no longer exist for yourselves but for others."
- Franz Grillparzer (1791-1872), Austrian author, from his play "Libussa"
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Janithor" |
|
| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
15 Jun 2004 04:48:28 AM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
I identify myself as anti-choice because that's what the Pro-Choicers
use to refer to Pro-Life people. Presumably it's supposed to be
pejorative. But since I'm against abortion in a general sense (without
getting into all the specific cases that people love to argue), I have
no problem being called anti-choice.
You do realize the futility of arguing this one on usenet, don't you?
I'm not even to respond to your follow-up, not because I don't respect
you, but because I know we'll go nowhere, other than getting each
other's panties all bunched up.
My mom works at Planned Parenthood and is very pro-choice. She's also
one of the warmest, most loving people you could ever hope to meet,
she's very much a Mom type. Until the Pro-life crowd can figure out
someone like my mom, which I myself can't, they are wasting their breath
and their efforts.
It's an argument that goes around in circles, same stuff said over and
over, neither side doing a very good job of convincing the other.
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
14 Jun 2004 11:46:20 PM |
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On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 03:37:58 GMT, Janithor <Janithor@comcast.net> wrote:
The problem is that this is all predicated on the idea that the fetus is
not innocent human life. What if the fetus is delivered? At birth +10
minutes, it's human life, and at birth -10 minutes, it's not? If you
take these arguments, then 5 month infants living in these conditions
should be killed, since quality of life is more important. Most people
would say this is ludicrous (although some extreme Pro-Choicers advocate
the right to kill at birth + 1 month).
I read something about that college professor who suggested a 30 day trial
period. Somehow I knew it would go to that extreme.
It seems to me to be much easier to forbid all killing than it is to decide
when to stop it.
And my original question remainds unanswered: how can people advocate
the right to destroy your own fetus, but you can't decide where it goes
to school once it's born? That baffles me too. I thought Pro-Choice
was about...choice?
What about my choice when it comes to paying taxes? I didn't sign up for
all these taxes before I was born...
--
DISCRIMINATE, v.i. To note the particulars in which one person or thing
is, if possible, more objectionable than another.
- Ambrose Bierce
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| User: "SortaLily" |
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| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
14 Jun 2004 11:51:38 PM |
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"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
news:uivsc096d4vapa51mhc5l6k9cuf2s2d278@4ax.com...
| On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 03:37:58 GMT, Janithor <Janithor@comcast.net> wrote:
|
| >|
| What about my choice when it comes to paying taxes? I didn't sign up for
| all these taxes before I was born...
so you are willing to give up the local, city and state services you get
for your taxes?
police, emts, a good library .. good roads .. or a daycare center where a
single mother who is trying to provide for her child hold a job and stay
off wellfare?
or your federal dollars which go to help veterans ... inspect our food to
make sure it is safe .. who guard our airports (post 9/11)
who enforce the laws of our land? keep our national parks beautiful for
all to enjoy .. who sit in the control towers ..
who keep our country safe (well as much as we can) ..
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: 16 Million Considering the Seperation of SCHOOL and State. (politics) |
15 Jun 2004 04:08:24 PM |
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On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 00:51:38 -0400, "SortaLily" <up.down@near.far> wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
news:uivsc096d4vapa51mhc5l6k9cuf2s2d278@4ax.com...
| On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 03:37:58 GMT, Janithor <Janithor@comcast.net> wrote:
|
| >|
| What about my choice when it comes to paying taxes? I didn't sign up for
| all these taxes before I was born...
so you are willing to give up the local, city and state services you get
for your taxes?
police, emts, a good library .. good roads .. or a daycare center where a
single mother who is trying to provide for her child hold a job and stay
off wellfare?
Yes. The free market can supply all of those needs.
I forget the name of the town, but I read a story years back about a town
where the fire department is paid for through voluntary contributions. The
catch is that if you don't contribute, they'll let your house burn down.
They'll show up only to ensure that the fire doesn't spread to a neighbor
who may be current on their dues.
or your federal dollars which go to help veterans ... inspect our food to
make sure it is safe .. who guard our airports (post 9/11)
who enforce the laws of our land? keep our national parks beautiful for
all to enjoy .. who sit in the control towers ..
who keep our country safe (well as much as we can) ..
The first step is to roll back government to it's original intention and
foundation. Excise taxes, as opposed to income taxes, and only enough to
pay for the actual constitutional powers granted to the federal government.
The trick is to give up pet projects and attempts at economic
micro-management that lead only to more attempts and an endless shell game.
--
REASON, v.i. To weight probabilities in the scales of desire.
- Ambrose Bierce
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