| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"Office xx" |
| Date: |
20 Feb 2005 08:48:38 AM |
| Object: |
Bipolar and a relationship intimacy problem |
Hello sufferers and advisers,
I have a question for you all - here is the history first.
Present age 50
I am a male
Diagnosed with Bipolar depression (finally as this diagnosis took a long
time)
Estimated duration of the illness is 30 years - substantially increasing in
effect with each year - regardless of the medication.
Tried many SSRI's etc but current medication is
Trifinol 200mg per day
Lithium 1500mg per day
These medications are being 'fiddled' with to try and establish a suitable
level - commonly, new medication levels work for a short time (sometimes
months sometimes days) before reverting back to the pre-adjustment
behaviour.
Many of my symptoms are Narcissistic like - self centred, taken on the job
of being responsible for everyone elses bad moods etc etc ........
The Bipolar disease has caused a great deal of stress in my marriage, I see
problems where none existed - in fact I can end up creating the very problem
I originally imagined - a self destruct of sorts.
We have just had a very difficult week and today sat down and set
up/discussed a set of rules I guess you could call it. Things like, no
swearing at my wife, controlling anger/frustration (this is tied in with the
swearing bit) and on it goes.
Now the difficult part - I am not to initiate any intimate behaviour as my
partner does not 'trust' me - until she trusts me(which I must earn by
showing care for her)- meaning I havent treated her like a wife or
girlfriend so until I 'earn' my points so to speak - intimacy is out.
Now in marriage, being intimate is the physical part of love - lovemaking -
physical bond between two lovers.
Because of this new development in our relationship, does this mean:
a) She no longer loves me
b) Is it fair for her to expect me to 'earn' her intimacy?
c) Is our marriage doomed with this type of rule to live together by?
Dont confuse the word trust with infidelity - trust is to indicate that she
wants to trust that I will do the right thing by her.
Now I have a high sex drive (even with all the drugs) but morality stops me
from seeking my sexsual gratification elsewhere - so no casuals/paid sex etc
I guess its will have to been 'grin and bear it' until she decides she feels
like it. I have warned her that at that time I may not be able to perform
because of the mental link that is being created WIFE - I HAVE AN EPISODE -
NO SEX - SOME TIME LATER - SEX
If I walk away from the marriage (being unworkable using a set of rules that
werent jointly worked out - its a case of take it or leave it) then I am
afraid of the future for my wife and myself quite frankly.
I have read many cases of couples in a relationship, one of whom has
depression and they are sexless - is this my future? I dont want to be
coarse but that would be like having no mouth to talk with or no legs to run
with, intimacy to me is very important.
I'm not sure about my partners sex drive, it certainly has seemed lower than
mine - maybe she is experiencing lower sex drive due to her menopause and I
should not be so self-centred (but thats the nature of this Bipolar beast)
I will be discussing this situation with my therapist but your opinions
would be considered most valuable
Russell
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| User: "Tom Muhler" |
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| Title: Re: Bipolar and a relationship intimacy problem |
20 Feb 2005 07:36:00 PM |
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a) She no longer loves me
b) Is it fair for her to expect me to 'earn' her intimacy?
c) Is our marriage doomed with this type of rule to live together by?
Russel, I can't answer most of your questions but one thing that
appears obvious to me is that you must mean a lot to your wife! If
she has been putting up with the bipolar mood swings for a long time
she must have been carrying a heavy load in your relationship. Now, I
don't mean that you should have a guilty conscience of any kind
because you probalbly have a lot to give to her as well. Most bipolar
people have a very caring and intelligent side to them.
I just think you shouldn't interpret her behavior as not loving you
because she is at your side even though hard times have come over your
relationship. From my experience the emotional and sexual perception
are heavily linked. Much more, than it is with men.
Also, a strong sexual drive could mean the desperate search for
emotional closeness. Now, sex can generate a temporary feeling of
gratification but it will come back shortly. But maybe there are
other ways to exchange feelings of emotional closeness to bridge the
current situation. When was the last time you went to the movies
together or a live band playing at a club? Such mutual experiences
might help you feel more connected to her, too. And if push comes to
shove masturbation before the event might help, but don't tell her to
give her a guilty conscience in this scenario? I'm just rambling here
because bridging the gap doesn't seem easy from what you were writing.
I'm keeping my thumbs pressed and I think it's very courageous of you
to communicate your situation. None of us is free from similar
experiences and we tend to fall back, too.
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| User: "Office" |
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| Title: Re: Bipolar and a relationship intimacy problem |
20 Feb 2005 05:15:03 PM |
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Further thoughts as I work through this relatively new development regarding
intimacy.
The trust of my partner depends upon my being 'trustworthy' ** defined
"trustworthy" is the ability to understand her side of things, emotional in
particular.She wakes and doesnt know who will be with her, nice me or bad
me. Bad me means I am sullen and unresponsive, if it develops then I become
totally withdrawn - a dark cupboard for a day or so seems to help. Although
I always thought I was a caring person who could understand others emotional
problems (yes, people would come to ME for advice - that seems so funny now)
I have lost my ability to empathise with my partner - in fact she has become
my emotional 'punching bag' - emotional, never physical.
Now here is my latest idea - is it flawed?
My partners trust is required before any physical intimacy can occur. I
think this means that she needs to know I am there emotionally before we go
any further in re-establishing some sort of normal relationship.
While I understand her needs now and why she needs to make this stand (she
is also turning into an emotional wreck, I assume I have caused this) - am I
not doomed? Her stance almost assumes that I can suddenly turn on "Mister
Niceguy" - that it is somehow under my control. As the Bipolar is not
controlled by me, I cannot promise to be a "Mister Niceguy" with any
certainty. This morning I am at work crying in secret because the doom and
gloom of the situation is hitting me a bit.
Would it be responsible of me to quietly depart the relationship to save the
hurt that my partner will feel in the future when she realises I will never
be totally under control? Or would this action just hurt her more or is this
likely to be good in the long run?
Actually while on this - has anyone else had a limited relationship problem
like I am noticing?
By this I mean - say you have 30 friends. You get sick with depression of
some form. This causes you to isolate from those friends until you only have
say 2 or 3 friends. Now if a couple of other friends try to re-establish the
friendship, you cant maintain the increased number of friends and those
original friends get isolated, leaving you with 2 friends again. This
happens to me in my relationships, I have recently re-established contact
with my parents and now I seem to be hell bent on destroying my marriage to
compensate.
I just need to know if this is a common problem in depression? I think I've
mentioned it to my therapist but he didnt seem to feel it was important -
any ideas how I can tackle this?
Russell
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| User: "Tom Muhler" |
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| Title: Re: Bipolar and a relationship intimacy problem |
20 Feb 2005 07:47:11 PM |
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Would it be responsible of me to quietly depart the relationship to save the
hurt that my partner will feel in the future when she realises I will never
be totally under control? Or would this action just hurt her more or is this
likely to be good in the long run?
Now, this is obvious. Of course you shouldn't leave her. That would
be mighty stupid! Bipolar disorders can be treated, continue with
this and you should definately try to get her involved. Also, tell
her how much you appreachiate her presence in these hard times. Then
again, are they hard? After 30 years you finally found out what is
causing this horrible scenario that - unidentified - has caused so
much trouble in other families?
Also, leaving her wouldn't be a favor for her. It would be action you
would take for your own sake. To continue without the obviously hard
track of treatment. But it will be worthwhile. Don't despair now and
you'll walk the streets whisteling again.
Relax and realize that it is a disease that is very much treatable.
Just take a look around and tell me who (with 50) does not have their
illness to cope with? It will be allright. Now, please do me a
favor, get off the computer and talk to her. She has been waiting
long enough. Good luck!!!
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| User: "Nina" |
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| Title: Re: Bipolar and a relationship intimacy problem |
20 Feb 2005 06:30:28 PM |
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On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:15:03 +1100, "Office"
<sales@diskemporium.com.au> wrote:
Now here is my latest idea - is it flawed?
My partners trust is required before any physical intimacy can occur. I
think this means that she needs to know I am there emotionally before we go
any further in re-establishing some sort of normal relationship.
While I understand her needs now and why she needs to make this stand (she
is also turning into an emotional wreck, I assume I have caused this) - am I
not doomed? Her stance almost assumes that I can suddenly turn on "Mister
Niceguy" - that it is somehow under my control. As the Bipolar is not
controlled by me, I cannot promise to be a "Mister Niceguy" with any
certainty. This morning I am at work crying in secret because the doom and
gloom of the situation is hitting me a bit.
Would it be responsible of me to quietly depart the relationship to save the
hurt that my partner will feel in the future when she realises I will never
be totally under control? Or would this action just hurt her more or is this
likely to be good in the long run?
You know, there are two parts of the problem here... you, and the way
that your partner reacts to you. Part of that is HER problem and not
yours.
I understand very, very well how you can become an emotional wreck
when someone you love is unstable, unpredictable. You can know
perfectly well that the other person can't control it... or has only
limited control over it... but it still rips your heart out. It's
taken me a lot of years to recognize that part of the problem there is
me.
I don't understand enough about either her or you to know this, but it
seems to me that if she loves you and wants to stay with you, while
understanding the difficulties, and you want to stay with her, etc.,
then she has to have some ability to separate and get some space so
that she can cope. The sex thing seems kind of healthy to me, from
that point of view. And your obligation, if you care about her and
want the relationship, is to not feel hurt by that, to try to
understand it and let her have some of what she needs. You can't
completely control your behavior... and she can't completely control
hers, either. You're asking her to deal with a lot, and you have to
give her something in return.
I also don't know if it's really true that you'll never be completely
(or mostly) under control. I hope it's something you're working
toward.
At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself how much you want this
relationship, and what you want it for. And you're very low and
frustrated about this at the moment... it also seems to me that trying
to back up a little and giving both of you a bit of space and time
couldn't hurt anything.
Nina
_____________
"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me lay an invincible summer."
-Albert Camus
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| User: "Office" |
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| Title: Re: Bipolar and a relationship intimacy problem |
20 Feb 2005 09:32:11 PM |
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Thank you to the people who have taken the time to reply, give me their
opinions and some experiences in relation to depression.
You will probably never know how important this contact is to me and my
relationship with my wife.
I need to read your answers again and digest what I am being told - I truly
want to have the greatest possible chance of keeping our relationship alive.
It is true that my partner has always been totally committed to our
relationship - lately I think it has just been overwhelming.
Yes, in fact I or my partner do organise different 'outings' and -most- of
the time these work fine however lately even these have been a source of
some misunderstandings e.g last week we had the chance to see Suzi Quatro
live - for us this was so exciting! Well the concert was great but then I
seemed to put my foot in my mouth saying how great Suzi looked (remarkable
for the age) and perhaps this upset my partner a bit. She became quiet on
the 45 minute trip back home and I (in my stupid depressed way of looking at
the world) felt she was unhappy with the outing and it was my fault. For the
next few hours and all the next day I beat myself up over this until I was
in another full blown depressed state. The rest is history....its always the
same........give it a day or two and the depression disipates.
I am of course strictly taking my Tifranol and Lithium (currently the Li is
being increased under supervision/blood tests) but perhaps another drug is
needed. I am seeing my pysch. doctor next week and I will give him a
printout of this discussion thread and see what he thinks my treatment
should be - unchanged, increased levels or change of drug or drug group.
I can tell you one thing - 5 months ago (thats how long I've been on my
current medication) I was having extremely black moods, total and complete
isolation (I existed without acknowledging the existance of any of person,
including my partner and our son) - the worst thing was suicide - every
second of every day was consumed with the thought of ending my pathetic
life. I had it down to working out the most desirable method of death and
ensuring total success - I didnt want to fail and end up being totally
disabled or whatever - what a waste that would be.
Anyway, ALL those thoughts are gone - I dont get black holes and certainly
no suicide thoughts so in my opinion these drugs have been a great success
for me......its just this emotional merry-go-round that I'm putting loved
ones through that is challenging me at the moment.
Finally, being open on this forum/newsgroup or in person has never been my
problem. If I have a genuine desire to 'get better' then how can I possibly
ask for help and yet not tell the whole story - sure it will be slanted to
my view, I'm not sure I can help that but with my thoughts, and the advice I
get from places like this and also my doctor, I will beat this thing - I
hope (I'm not really convinced that I can beat this because I'm not totally
sure that I or my doctor know exactly what we are fighting.
Oh dear another great long post ....sorry
Russell
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| User: "Triv" |
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| Title: Re: Bipolar and a relationship intimacy problem |
04 Mar 2005 12:24:16 AM |
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What can I say Russell, Are you me ?
I think I can identify exactly with how you feel.
The best advice I can see in these posts is get off the computer and back to
your wife / life.
I left my wife after being in the same state as you for a couple of years.
There's no going back from that. It will only hurt both of you.
Try to catch yourself from talking at her, its much better to talk to her.
Until she has suffered herself don't expect her to fully understand.
She seems to care accept that.
Good luck fella, I really do empathise
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| User: "Nina" |
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| Title: Re: Bipolar and a relationship intimacy problem |
20 Feb 2005 09:04:48 AM |
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On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 01:48:38 +1100, "Office" <xx> wrote:
Because of this new development in our relationship, does this mean:
a) She no longer loves me
b) Is it fair for her to expect me to 'earn' her intimacy?
c) Is our marriage doomed with this type of rule to live together by?
I think it's probably more of a sign that you really scared the hell
out of her in some way or that doing things like swearing at her,
etc., have had such an effect on her ability to be intimate with you
that she just can't deal with it at the moment. I mean, the LAST
thing that I would want to do is have sex with someone who was angry
with me, who I didn't trust, who swore at me, etc. That's not to say
that you couldn't win my trust back... but it wouldn't be easy or
quick.
It's difficult to judge from what you've said... and of course, it's
one side of the equation... but she hasn't said, "I will never sleep
with you again," or "I want a divorce." She's set some rules about
what would work for her, and, while perhaps, as you say, it's
one-sided, it's not intrinsically unreasonable, particularly as a
short run thing.
I'm not trying to give you a hard time, and maybe I'm really missing
something here, but if you have a problem with narcissism anyway, I
think you may need to try like hell to put yourself in your wife's
shoes for a minute rather than worrying about your high sex drive
(that's what hands are for, if it's a real issue that had to do with
taking care of a need, rather than imposing your will on someone
else). You can't get what you want here by saying, this is the nature
of the illness, I just AM self-centered.
I've been depressed in one way or another for ages, and my partner has
similar issues, and none of those things mean no sex, and actually, in
years of reading this group, no sex has not been a big thing (except
in discussions of the anorgasmic properties of most antidepressants).
Nina
_____________
"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me lay an invincible summer."
-Albert Camus
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| User: "Office xx" |
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| Title: Re: Bipolar and a relationship intimacy problem |
20 Feb 2005 09:28:22 AM |
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Thank you so much for your thoughts Nina
For the most part - spot one in your observations
Yes I am afraid the depression makes me very self centred - I am a nice
person most of the time but when the depression has taken control everything
becomes 'me', like changing to another personality.
I am not pushing the sex thing, I am just trying to understand it for what
it means - I will be a patient, caring husband (I hope, thats my aim)
I have met couples where both were inflicted with depression - I cant even
start to image what such households would be like
Russell
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| User: "Nina" |
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| Title: Re: Bipolar and a relationship intimacy problem |
20 Feb 2005 09:56:22 AM |
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On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 02:28:22 +1100, "Office" <xx> wrote:
Thank you so much for your thoughts Nina
For the most part - spot one in your observations
Yes I am afraid the depression makes me very self centred - I am a nice
person most of the time but when the depression has taken control everything
becomes 'me', like changing to another personality.
I do understand... and thanks for taking some fairly harsh words
graciously. The trouble is... and we all know this... that depression
DOES take over, and when that mind set is going, it's hard... though
not impossible... to see anything else.
I am not pushing the sex thing, I am just trying to understand it for what
it means - I will be a patient, caring husband (I hope, thats my aim)
I have met couples where both were inflicted with depression - I cant even
start to image what such households would be like
I think that our rule of thumb is, depression is not an excuse for bad
behavior. We have illnesses, but it's our responsibility not to
inflict that on the people we love. (Of course, the plus side is that
no one understand people with depression like people with
depression...)
Nina
_____________
"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me lay an invincible summer."
-Albert Camus
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