| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"solidac" |
| Date: |
11 Aug 2004 11:44:19 AM |
| Object: |
bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
Thomas Edison,
invented the light
oh.
& the gramophone..
But not electricity.
Nobody invented that.
It was there already
Nicholas Tesla should be known as the man who 'discovered'
all the basic principles of generation and distribution of electrical
power (but alas, he is barely known even in today's schools).
He also built a working radio before Marconi, plus invented robotics
His brand of electrical power was alternating current (AC power)
whereas Edison used direct /steady current (DC), as produced by
a simple chemical battery. The debate as to which was the better
'brand' of electricity, was in some ways an early example of two
standards going into battle (aka Beta vs VHS)
Anyway...
Edison launched a propaganda war against alternating current. He
was saying how DC (his method of distributing electricity) was
"like a river flowing peacefully to the sea, while AC was like a
torrent rushing violently over a precipice". They even went around
talking to audiences... and electrocuting dogs and old horses right
on stage, to show how dangerous AC was
This was clearly going too far..
Meanwhile, a murderer was about to be executed in the first
electric chair at New York's Auburn State Prison. A Tesla AC
generator was purchased to demonstrate once and for all, the
extreme danger of this brand of electricity. The victim was one
William Kemmler, a convicted murderer, who died horribly on
August 6 1890 in "an awful spectacle, far worse than hanging"
Ô¿Ô¬
presumably..
to clearly demonstrate how
brand DC of electricity was safer than brand AC
yeeeesshh
Puts a whole new slant on advertising endorsements
.
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| User: "Franz Bestuchev" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
11 Aug 2004 02:23:33 PM |
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DC sucks. No good for transmission.
Screw you Edison! If I want DC I'll convert it from AC when it gets here.
Tesla was a genius, just not a marketer. Plus he designed a resonating
machine, you could blow up the planet with that.
http://www.intuitor.com/resonance/tesla.html
"solidac" <waves@spam.bot> wrote in message
news:1092242776.743383@teuthos...
Thomas Edison,
invented the light
oh.
& the gramophone..
But not electricity.
Nobody invented that.
It was there already
Nicholas Tesla should be known as the man who 'discovered'
all the basic principles of generation and distribution of electrical
power (but alas, he is barely known even in today's schools).
He also built a working radio before Marconi, plus invented robotics
His brand of electrical power was alternating current (AC power)
whereas Edison used direct /steady current (DC), as produced by
a simple chemical battery. The debate as to which was the better
'brand' of electricity, was in some ways an early example of two
standards going into battle (aka Beta vs VHS)
Anyway...
Edison launched a propaganda war against alternating current. He
was saying how DC (his method of distributing electricity) was
"like a river flowing peacefully to the sea, while AC was like a
torrent rushing violently over a precipice". They even went around
talking to audiences... and electrocuting dogs and old horses right
on stage, to show how dangerous AC was
This was clearly going too far..
Meanwhile, a murderer was about to be executed in the first
electric chair at New York's Auburn State Prison. A Tesla AC
generator was purchased to demonstrate once and for all, the
extreme danger of this brand of electricity. The victim was one
William Kemmler, a convicted murderer, who died horribly on
August 6 1890 in "an awful spectacle, far worse than hanging"
Ô¿Ô¬
presumably..
to clearly demonstrate how
brand DC of electricity was safer than brand AC
yeeeesshh
Puts a whole new slant on advertising endorsements
.
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
12 Aug 2004 06:22:31 AM |
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Franz Bestuchev wrote:
DC sucks. No good for transmission.
Screw you Edison! If I want DC I'll convert it from AC when it gets here.
Tesla was a genius, just not a marketer. Plus he designed a resonating
machine, you could blow up the planet with that.
Exactly. It's a little like the argument about true colour in
television NTSC vs PAL. NTSC simply generates the colour at a
particular balance and then hopes like hell it gets to your tv at
the same levels. Hence the "Hue" control on NTSC monitors.
PAL, which bounces it's signal between positive and negative, in a
similar principle to AC power, always arrives with the same colour
balance as broadcast. Of course digital will make a mockery of all
this eventually.
AC power travels further while maintaining it's 'useful' current
flow while DC is notoriously erratic in long distance delivery.
GlennT
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
11 Aug 2004 03:36:42 PM |
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On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:23:33 -0600, "Franz Bestuchev"
<fbestuchev@hotmail.com> wrote:
DC sucks. No good for transmission.
Screw you Edison! If I want DC I'll convert it from AC when it gets here.
Tesla was a genius, just not a marketer. Plus he designed a resonating
machine, you could blow up the planet with that.
http://www.intuitor.com/resonance/tesla.html
There you go giving the Islamic nuts ideas, Franz...
--
LABOR, n. One of the processes by which A acquires property for B.
- Ambrose Bierce
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| User: "JayDee" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
11 Aug 2004 11:54:47 PM |
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On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 20:36:42 GMT, CyberDroog
<CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:23:33 -0600, "Franz Bestuchev"
<fbestuchev@hotmail.com> wrote:
DC sucks. No good for transmission.
Screw you Edison! If I want DC I'll convert it from AC when it gets =
here.
Tesla was a genius, just not a marketer. Plus he designed a resonating
machine, you could blow up the planet with that.
http://www.intuitor.com/resonance/tesla.html
There you go giving the Islamic nuts ideas, Franz...
I gotta subsonic frequency generator that shakes the building
izza a small bike wheel driven by a variable-speed DC motor
it is unbalanced with lead solder, not on false drugs
resonant frequency is 8 CPS, and it amps on it...
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| User: "solidac" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
12 Aug 2004 12:17:02 AM |
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I gotta subsonic frequency generator that shakes the building
izza a small bike wheel driven by a variable-speed DC motor
it is unbalanced with lead solder, not on false drugs
resonant frequency is 8 CPS, and it amps on it...
careful there ..
the resonant frequency of the human body is around 7 Hz
... and you know what that means..
remember the ol' opera singer cracking the crystal glass routine
bit of a folky yarn goes on about the bloke who first discovered that fact.
Supposedly, he was found somewhat all shook up
oh.. And buildings resonate too. Probably a lot slower than at 8 shakes per
second tho
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| User: "=^.^=" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
12 Aug 2004 01:37:25 AM |
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On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:47:02 +0930, "solidac" <waves@spam.bot>
wrote:
I gotta subsonic frequency generator that shakes the building
izza a small bike wheel driven by a variable-speed DC motor
it is unbalanced with lead solder, not on false drugs
resonant frequency is 8 CPS, and it amps on it...
careful there ..
the resonant frequency of the human body is around 7 Hz
.. and you know what that means..
uh-huh. but I can do up to 8WPS, which is good
enough to elicit a hmmMMmm from That Jenn
remember the ol' opera singer cracking the crystal glass routine
I've heard the story
bit of a folky yarn goes on about the bloke who first discovered that =
fact.
Supposedly, he was found somewhat all shook up
and maybe a bit pooped-out, too?
oh.. And buildings resonate too. Probably a lot slower than at 8 shakes =
per
second tho
larger buildings than this one. I use a lengthwise method since
it's more intense. heard stuff falling in an upstairs closet, too
that also happened when the nifty earthquake hit here, too...
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| User: "neoholistic" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
11 Aug 2004 04:15:22 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
CyberDroog wrote:
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:23:33 -0600, "Franz Bestuchev"
<fbestuchev@hotmail.com> wrote:
DC sucks. No good for transmission.
Screw you Edison! If I want DC I'll convert it from AC when it gets here.
Tesla was a genius, just not a marketer. Plus he designed a resonating
machine, you could blow up the planet with that.
http://www.intuitor.com/resonance/tesla.html
There you go giving the Islamic nuts ideas, Franz...
I wouldn't worry for that. This, on the other hand, I find strange (from
the article above):
"Today, Tesla would be far more famous and the subject of resonance
would probably receive far more attention in science textbooks.
Resonance was certainly one of Tesla's greatest passions and, like
Tesla, seems almost too mysterious to be real."
I'm confused here. AFAIK, resonance is absolutely FUNDAMENTAL in
science, and gets a LOT of attention in science and engineering books...
at least the ones I've seen (just HTF do you study the harmonic
oscillator without studying resonance, and how do you study mechanics
and electromangnetism without studying the harmonic oscillator)? That
subject is studied even in secondary school.
--
Please keep the 'x-no-archive: yes' header.
To reach me by email: transform my account name like IBM -> HAL.
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| User: "Franz Bestuchev" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
11 Aug 2004 05:16:42 PM |
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"neoholistic" <ekqbwpo@terra.es> wrote in message
news:2nvg9lF59le1U1@uni-berlin.de...
x-no-archive: yes
CyberDroog wrote:
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:23:33 -0600, "Franz Bestuchev"
<fbestuchev@hotmail.com> wrote:
DC sucks. No good for transmission.
Screw you Edison! If I want DC I'll convert it from AC when it gets
here.
Tesla was a genius, just not a marketer. Plus he designed a resonating
machine, you could blow up the planet with that.
http://www.intuitor.com/resonance/tesla.html
There you go giving the Islamic nuts ideas, Franz...
I wouldn't worry for that. This, on the other hand, I find strange (from
the article above):
"Today, Tesla would be far more famous and the subject of resonance
would probably receive far more attention in science textbooks.
Resonance was certainly one of Tesla's greatest passions and, like
Tesla, seems almost too mysterious to be real."
From what I've read of Tesla it seems as though nobody has come close to the
understanding that Tesla had. Of course some of this is from the David Icke
side of "science" ;)
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| User: "Kirby Cook" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
14 Aug 2004 12:55:05 AM |
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Someone who wishes to remain anonymous wrote:
I'm confused here. AFAIK, resonance is absolutely FUNDAMENTAL in
science, and gets a LOT of attention in science and engineering books...
at least the ones I've seen (just HTF do you study the harmonic
oscillator without studying resonance, and how do you study mechanics
and electromangnetism without studying the harmonic oscillator)? That
subject is studied even in secondary school.
I disagree. That is, it seems to me it is pigeonholed and dismissed:
Resonance? Oh yeah, we know all about that. It makes oscillators work.
Next. On the other hand,<Twilight Zone music comes up> when you
contemplate the principle, and have your eyes opened to implications of
its application in all facets of creation (physics, biology, psychology,
philosophy, art, music, pleasure, pain) you might get the feeling that
to really understand it would be to grasp many of the nuts and bolts of
building and ordering a creation such as ours. From scratch. I had
such an experience once, only for me it was the elements of Euclidean
geometry that seemed to hold the promise of an understanding of the
"how-to" of the creation of space-time. It was a long time ago, the
summer after the 9th grade (that is, I was 14), but I can recall the
feeling vividly to this day.
Kirby
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
11 Aug 2004 03:32:02 PM |
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On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 02:14:19 +0930, "solidac" <waves@spam.bot> wrote:
Thomas Edison,
invented the light
oh.
& the gramophone..
But not electricity.
Nobody invented that.
It was there already
Nicholas Tesla should be known as the man who 'discovered'
all the basic principles of generation and distribution of electrical
power (but alas, he is barely known even in today's schools).
He also built a working radio before Marconi, plus invented robotics
I always like to mention that Marconi was in second place to any Italian
who gives me *****... But just to be nice, I'll still mention that they
have Da Vinci, Galileo, and Michelangelo.
Edison launched a propaganda war against alternating current. He
was saying how DC (his method of distributing electricity) was
"like a river flowing peacefully to the sea, while AC was like a
torrent rushing violently over a precipice". They even went around
talking to audiences... and electrocuting dogs and old horses right
on stage, to show how dangerous AC was
James Burke talks about that in one of his books. That was some seriously
damaged behavior on Edison's part. In the last episode of From the Earth
to the Moon, they told the story of Edison stealing the first commercially
successful movie from the French director. Edison was definitely bright,
but kind of a *****. Actually some would say that his main genius was
delegating research tasks and letting others invent things for him. In
that way he is more comparable to Henry Ford than Albert Einstein.
The AC/DC controversy is interesting because they each lead to very
different possibilities. Whenever you crawl behind your computer desk and
get tangled in the wires you can thank Edison. Tesla's idea was for a
wireless world. Massive AC generators would have automatically powered any
electrical device within their range.
--
DISCUSSION, n. A method of confirming others in their errors.
- Ambrose Bierce
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| User: "JayDee" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
11 Aug 2004 11:50:53 PM |
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On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 20:32:02 GMT, CyberDroog
<CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
The AC/DC controversy is interesting because they each lead to very
different possibilities. Whenever you crawl behind your computer desk =
and
get tangled in the wires you can thank Edison. Tesla's idea was for a
wireless world. Massive AC generators would have automatically powered =
any
electrical device within their range.
Tesla also had a wireless power transmission methodology
yes, it worked, but it had side-effects...
those affected talked to his backer (JP Morgan) and got him
to get Tesla to quit running the thing. leeetle grey men I hear
heh...
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| User: "harakiri" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
11 Aug 2004 05:39:07 PM |
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or make for a one very elusive weapon
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
news:ctvkh0t6bhrrtatttejmnkp61buv70fim0@4ax.com...
Tesla's idea was for a wireless world. Massive AC generators would have
automatically powered any electrical device within their range.
.
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| User: "harakiri" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
11 Aug 2004 05:43:00 PM |
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i thought that was Westinghouse
"solidac" <waves@spam.bot> wrote in message
news:1092242776.743383@teuthos...
Edison launched a propaganda war against alternating current. He was saying
how DC (his method of distributing electricity) was "like a river flowing
peacefully to the sea, while AC was like a torrent rushing violently over a
precipice". They even went around talking to audiences... and electrocuting
dogs and old horses right on stage, to show how dangerous AC was
This was clearly going too far..
Meanwhile, a murderer was about to be executed in the first
electric chair at New York's Auburn State Prison. A Tesla AC
generator was purchased to demonstrate once and for all, the
extreme danger of this brand of electricity. The victim was one
William Kemmler, a convicted murderer, who died horribly on
August 6 1890 in "an awful spectacle, far worse than hanging"
Ô¿Ô¬
presumably..
to clearly demonstrate how
brand DC of electricity was safer than brand AC
yeeeesshh
Puts a whole new slant on advertising endorsements
.
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| User: "Noon Cat Nick" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
12 Aug 2004 01:10:59 AM |
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solidac wrote:
Edison launched a propaganda war against alternating current. He
was saying how DC (his method of distributing electricity) was
"like a river flowing peacefully to the sea, while AC was like a
torrent rushing violently over a precipice". They even went around
talking to audiences... and electrocuting dogs and old horses right
on stage, to show how dangerous AC was
Edison also made motion pictures of such staged atrocities, to further
his argument. Errol Morris included one of them in his 1999 documentary
_Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred A. Leuchter, Jr._, in which Edison
filmed a circus elephant being killed by deliberate electrocution.
This was clearly going too far..
I agree. See Morris's movie and you'll understand why I do.
Meanwhile, a murderer was about to be executed in the first
electric chair at New York's Auburn State Prison. A Tesla AC
generator was purchased to demonstrate once and for all, the
extreme danger of this brand of electricity. The victim was one
William Kemmler, a convicted murderer, who died horribly on
August 6 1890 in "an awful spectacle, far worse than hanging"
Referring again to Morris's film, Leuchter, an expert on electric
chairs, explained to the director that the proper voltage is key to the
"humane" electrocution of a convict receiving capital punishment
("humane" in this case meaning an execution as painless and speedy as
can be performed). Too low and the heart will start beating again,
meaning that the prisoner, now brain-dead and with a destroyed nervous
system, has to be put back into the chair and re-electrocuted. Too high
and the prisoner will literally cook to death, the flesh falling off the
bones like the meat of a roasted chicken.
Also check out the 1982 documentary _The Atomic Cafe_ by Jayne Loader,
Kevin Rafferty and Pierce Rafferty. In one segment, a news reporter who
witnessed the electrocutions of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg describes the
event. Ethel Rosenberg's execution was botched, because the chair was
designed for a man, and she was a rather petite woman. The result was
that they had to shock her three times in order to electrocute her to
death; at one point, the current galloping through her body caused her
hair to catch fire.
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| User: "neoholistic" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
11 Aug 2004 03:07:23 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
solidac wrote:
Thomas Edison,
invented the light
oh.
& the gramophone..
But not electricity.
Nobody invented that.
It was there already
Nicholas Tesla should be known as the man who 'discovered'
all the basic principles of generation and distribution of electrical
power (but alas, he is barely known even in today's schools).
He also built a working radio before Marconi, plus invented robotics
His brand of electrical power was alternating current (AC power)
whereas Edison used direct /steady current (DC), as produced by
a simple chemical battery. The debate as to which was the better
'brand' of electricity, was in some ways an early example of two
standards going into battle (aka Beta vs VHS)
Anyway...
Edison launched a propaganda war against alternating current. He
was saying how DC (his method of distributing electricity) was
"like a river flowing peacefully to the sea, while AC was like a
torrent rushing violently over a precipice". They even went around
talking to audiences... and electrocuting dogs and old horses right
on stage, to show how dangerous AC was
This was clearly going too far..
Meanwhile, a murderer was about to be executed in the first
electric chair at New York's Auburn State Prison. A Tesla AC
generator was purchased to demonstrate once and for all, the
extreme danger of this brand of electricity. The victim was one
William Kemmler, a convicted murderer, who died horribly on
August 6 1890 in "an awful spectacle, far worse than hanging"
Ô¿Ô¬
presumably..
to clearly demonstrate how
brand DC of electricity was safer than brand AC
yeeeesshh
Puts a whole new slant on advertising endorsements
Automatons have been known for centuries, but person who pioneered
"robotics" (actually cybernetics) wasn't Tesla, but a Spaniard
called Leonardo Torres Quevedo, in the late 1800s. Due to the
Black Legend you won't have heard of him in any French or English
speaking country.
Tesla was mad, but he was right about AC. It's much, much better for
power transmission lines: it has massively less dissipation and allows
veeeeery simple ways to raise or lower the voltage, among other
advantages.
--
Please keep the 'x-no-archive: yes' header.
To reach me by email: transform my account name like IBM -> HAL.
.
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| User: "solidac" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
11 Aug 2004 05:31:36 PM |
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"neoholistic" <ekqbwpo@terra.es> wrote in message
news:2nvca4F558vjU1@uni-berlin.de...
x-no-archive: yes
Automatons have been known for centuries, but person who pioneered
"robotics" (actually cybernetics) wasn't Tesla, but a Spaniard
called Leonardo Torres Quevedo, in the late 1800s. Due to the
Black Legend you won't have heard of him in any French or English
speaking country.
probably the wrong phrasing then. Tesla made the first radio controlled
anything. It was a boat. The idea was so bizarre that the onlookers said it
must have it's own brain. They just couldn't their head around the idea.
Amazing how we are stumped at any new concept..
who, or what is the the Black Legend?
Tesla was mad, but he was right about AC. It's much, much better for
power transmission lines: it has massively less dissipation and allows
veeeeery simple ways to raise or lower the voltage, among other
advantages.
yep - he became quite obsessed by this idea of free power for everyone. If
he had gotten his way, we would be absolutely drenched in emf even more than
we already are (what with all the various forms of radio transmitters around
the place plus ac mains power transmission lines). Actually it couldn't work
anyway, because he hadn't quite worked out that each dampened tuned circuit
within a field takes energy away from it
for such a simple thing to construct, the mains transformer has huge
advantages. The early demonstrations of power transmission did not have the
advantage of step up /step down transformers however. The Tesla coil
(resonant tuned circuit) come shortly afterwards, which in turn indirectly
led to the transformer. AC is more efficient to transmit than DC even
without the additional advantage of being able to step up to decrease
current /lower the amount of wire required. Offcourse this is offset by the
increased need for insulators and the greater safety concerns of higher
voltages
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| User: "Noon Cat Nick" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
12 Aug 2004 12:51:41 AM |
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solidac wrote:
who, or what is the the Black Legend?
The Black Legend is the folklore of Spaniards being singularly and
excessively bloodthirsty, sadistic, rapacious and concupiscent. Examples include:
• Spanish explorers being held responsible for the near-decimation of
the indigenous population of Hispaniola; also Spanish colonization in general
• The sport of bullfighting, as well as the annual running of the bulls
in Pamplona
• The Spanish Inquisition, overseen by Torquemada
• The Borgias, most notably Lucrezia Borgia, allegedly an expert in
poisoning any of her husbands the Borgia family had no more political
use for; her despotic brother Cesare Borgia; and her Machiavilian
father, Cardinal Rodrigo Borgia, who became Pope Alexander VI
• The tyrannical empiricist King Philip II, whose "invincible" Armada
helped feed his gluttony for Spanish colonization throughout Europe and
the "New World"
• The introduction of the slave trade in North and South America
By contrast, there is also the White Legend (also called the Rosy
Legend), which casts Spaniards as noble and benevolent conquerors in
reference to that country's colonization efforts during the Renaissance.
Much of the White Legend is concerned with debunking the above-noted
examples which form the basis of the Black Legend.
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| User: "Alan Harding" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
12 Aug 2004 03:28:50 AM |
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In message <411B056C.4A3066ED@catlover.com>, Noon Cat Nick
<chatdemidiSPAMBEGONE@catlover.com> writes
solidac wrote:
who, or what is the the Black Legend?
The Black Legend is the folklore of Spaniards being singularly and
excessively bloodthirsty, sadistic, rapacious and concupiscent.
Examples include:
<Snip>
• The Borgias, most notably Lucrezia Borgia, allegedly an expert in
poisoning any of her husbands the Borgia family had no more political
use for; her despotic brother Cesare Borgia; and her Machiavilian
father, Cardinal Rodrigo Borgia, who became Pope Alexander VI
The Borgias were Spanish? I thought they were Italian. Spaniards in
Italy? My Mediterranean history isn't very good, but I know the Spanish
were in parts of Italy for some of the time. They also owned the
Netherlands (so we had them just over the water while they were trying
to invade us) which was a bit tricky for the Dutch, who didn't like
being burned at the stake for not being Catholic.
--
The opinions given above may be mine. They might also
just be what I feel like saying right now, okay?
.
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
12 Aug 2004 06:32:25 AM |
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Alan Harding wrote:
<snip>
The Borgias were Spanish? I thought they were Italian. Spaniards in
Italy? My Mediterranean history isn't very good, but I know the Spanish
were in parts of Italy for some of the time. They also owned the
Netherlands (so we had them just over the water while they were trying
to invade us) which was a bit tricky for the Dutch, who didn't like
being burned at the stake for not being Catholic.
Must have been effective, there are a lot of Catholics there now...
although there was not much influence in the gene pool by the look
of things.
GlennT
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| User: "neoholistic" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
12 Aug 2004 12:45:54 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Noon Cat Nick wrote:
solidac wrote:
who, or what is the the Black Legend?
The Black Legend is the folklore of Spaniards being singularly and
excessively bloodthirsty, sadistic, rapacious and concupiscent. Examples include:
• Spanish explorers being held responsible for the near-decimation of
the indigenous population of Hispaniola; also Spanish colonization in general
<Ahem> Whenever this issue is raised by USAnians, I always answer the
same:
look around you. What do most people look like? Ignore for a moment the
ethnic minorities like Asians, Africans, etc. What do people around you
resemble more, people native to America or people native to Europe?
Now look at (the majority of) the Spanish-speaking population. What
do they resemble more, people native to Europe or people native to
America? So, who were the real colonisers, then?
• The sport of bullfighting, as well as the annual running of the bulls
in Pamplona
• The Spanish Inquisition, overseen by Torquemada
• The Borgias, most notably Lucrezia Borgia, allegedly an expert in
poisoning any of her husbands the Borgia family had no more political
use for; her despotic brother Cesare Borgia; and her Machiavilian
father, Cardinal Rodrigo Borgia, who became Pope Alexander VI
• The tyrannical empiricist King Philip II, whose "invincible" Armada
helped feed his gluttony for Spanish colonization throughout Europe and
the "New World"
• The introduction of the slave trade in North and South America
By contrast, there is also the White Legend (also called the Rosy
Legend), which casts Spaniards as noble and benevolent conquerors in
reference to that country's colonization efforts during the Renaissance.
Much of the White Legend is concerned with debunking the above-noted
examples which form the basis of the Black Legend.
That is /part/ of the Black Legend, but not exactly the one I was
referring
to. I haven't got the time right now to explain it, though.
.
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
12 Aug 2004 02:20:53 AM |
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On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 06:45:54 +0100, neoholistic <ekqbwpo@neoholistic.org>
wrote:
Noon Cat Nick wrote:
• Spanish explorers being held responsible for the near-decimation of
the indigenous population of Hispaniola; also Spanish colonization in general
<Ahem> Whenever this issue is raised by USAnians, I always answer the
same:
look around you. What do most people look like? Ignore for a moment the
ethnic minorities like Asians, Africans, etc. What do people around you
resemble more, people native to America or people native to Europe?
Now look at (the majority of) the Spanish-speaking population. What
do they resemble more, people native to Europe or people native to
America? So, who were the real colonisers, then?
A Spaniard talking like that could get his throat cut in the American
Southwest. Chicanos take the raping of their peoples very personally.
I suppose indigenous Americans might feel the same way, but at least they
have casinos... Actually for the most part they don't feel the same. At
least not as far as inter-breeding. But Chicanos, and many Mexicans are
very touchy about it.
--
To hell with circumstances; I create opportunities.
- Bruce Lee
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| User: "Alan Harding" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
12 Aug 2004 03:41:22 AM |
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In message <t86mh0hnc9uv9n418pbltbsbkirr66g7pm@4ax.com>, CyberDroog
<CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> writes
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 06:45:54 +0100, neoholistic <ekqbwpo@neoholistic.org>
wrote:
Noon Cat Nick wrote:
• Spanish explorers being held responsible for the near-decimation of
the indigenous population of Hispaniola; also Spanish colonization
in general
<Ahem> Whenever this issue is raised by USAnians, I always answer the
same:
look around you. What do most people look like? Ignore for a moment the
ethnic minorities like Asians, Africans, etc. What do people around you
resemble more, people native to America or people native to Europe?
Now look at (the majority of) the Spanish-speaking population. What
do they resemble more, people native to Europe or people native to
America? So, who were the real colonisers, then?
A Spaniard talking like that could get his throat cut in the American
Southwest. Chicanos take the raping of their peoples very personally.
I suppose indigenous Americans might feel the same way, but at least they
have casinos... Actually for the most part they don't feel the same. At
least not as far as inter-breeding. But Chicanos, and many Mexicans are
very touchy about it.
You need a lot of colonists to outbreed the locals, or some very nasty
colonists to wipe massacre them, or some new diseases to wipe them out.
Maybe most colonists were absorbed, eventually, by the native
population.
They did DNA tests on a skeleton from pre-Celtic Britain, and compared
it to the local population. They found a match. This was in England,
which has been colonised at least three times since then, but the native
DNA is still here.
--
The opinions given above may be mine. They might also
just be what I feel like saying right now, okay?
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| User: "neoholistic" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
12 Aug 2004 02:55:23 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Alan Harding wrote:
snip
They did DNA tests on a skeleton from pre-Celtic Britain, and compared
it to the local population. They found a match. This was in England,
which has been colonised at least three times since then, but the native
DNA is still here.
You can consider yourselves "well established" then...
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| User: "neoholistic" |
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| Title: Re: bizzare history (sp: gets slightly gory) |
12 Aug 2004 02:08:24 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
CyberDroog wrote:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 06:45:54 +0100, neoholistic <ekqbwpo@neoholistic.org>
wrote:
Noon Cat Nick wrote:
• Spanish explorers being held responsible for the near-decimation of
the indigenous population of Hispaniola; also Spanish colonization in general
<Ahem> Whenever this issue is raised by USAnians, I always answer the
same:
look around you. What do most people look like? Ignore for a moment the
ethnic minorities like Asians, Africans, etc. What do people around you
resemble more, people native to America or people native to Europe?
Now look at (the majority of) the Spanish-speaking population. What
do they resemble more, people native to Europe or people native to
America? So, who were the real colonisers, then?
A Spaniard talking like that could get his throat cut in the American
Southwest. Chicanos take the raping of their peoples very personally.
I suppose indigenous Americans might feel the same way, but at least they
have casinos... Actually for the most part they don't feel the same. At
least not as far as inter-breeding. But Chicanos, and many Mexicans are
very touchy about it.
I know, and I respect them. I would feel the same if I were in their
situation. AFAIK the Aztec past is revered in Mexico (maybe also a bit
idealised?), and that's absolutely great IMO. But still, as bad as the
Spanish atrocities were - and it's a fact that they were indeed
atrocious
- they destroyed more culture and civilisation than actual genes. Of
course
millions of people blame the Spanish for tainting their previous "purity
of
blood" (but whose blood is "pure" anyway?), but the fact that there are
many areas where people have retained their "purity" untouched
notwithstanding, at least they are still living in their ancestral
lands.
The Indians in the USA, casinos or not, were also decimated, and then
put
into reservations. Doesn't look that much more humane to me.
My point here is that all of us have something to be ashamed of -
speaking
of the low morals of the "cruel, evil conquistadors" while ignoring the
equally cruel ways of the colonisers in what are now the USA is
unethical.
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