| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
20 Mar 2005 11:01:12 AM |
| Object: |
Boethius, Nietzsche and civilization |
Boethius believed that reason is highest manifestation of human nature,
and that pursuit of understanding, based on the order of nature, is the
highest pleasure. He says that other pleasures are crass in comparison.
There is something I want to ask him retroactively. Isn't human nature
supposed to be, like, fallen, and isn't whatever is appropriate to
human nature not right by, like, God or something?
The societies that believe similar things - societies that suppress
emotions - result in cruelty, heartlessness and coldness. As Nietzsce,
consummating the WASP character, said, "Man is that which must be
overcome" - resulting of course in a society that, as he himself
ordained it, must be always at war, finding more and more merely-men to
feed on.
People with emotions are needed to feed the society; but of course
these people are despised and treated like garbage. Thus, class
develops of scapegoeats - of people who are used to feed everyone
emotionally but get treated like dirt. This, in and of itself,
completely demolishes the pretense of such societies toward morality,
and the only honest response is: REMOVE THE SCAPEGOAT AND MAKE THE
PLACE COLLAPSE ON ITSELF.
AS IT SHOULD.
When I was in Tucson, I ran into a man named Scott, the publisher of
Tucson Poet. He said that the poetic imagery for the civilization is
eros being extracted from people through advertisement to financially
power the civilization ("Man sees naked woman, says want to breed with
naked woman, buys refrigerator.") Question: WHAT LEGACY - WHAT
CONSUMMATION OF EFFORT OF MAN - DO YOU SEEK? Refrigerators? The
consummation of human endeavor, that? OR something that lasts?
Is man tool of machine or is machine tool of something perhaps better?
Is consummation of human project society - an arrangement of fulfilling
of wants, a machine? Or is there perhaps better destiny: Creation of
civilization: A blossoming of the inspired and the wise and the
principled: A legacy comparable to that of Renaissance, with
masterpieces in every area of human endeavor, that future generations
will be proud of?
MAKE SOCIETY TOOL OF CIVILIZATION.
To elaborate on Scott's idea. THe utilitarian society uses every
emotion as tool of machinery. Solution to make this produce something
higher:
Consummate the social enterprise with brilliant effort in every
endeavor.
And thus put society in its place - as a tool of a higher purpose and a
means to a legacy that will make all proud. Now and for centuries to
come.
Society in service of civilization.
Ilya Shambat.
http://www.geocities.com/ilya_shambat2005/poems.htm
http://www.geocities.com/ilya_shambat2005
.
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| User: "$2 Strawberry Salesman Spotter" |
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| Title: "This town ain't big enough for the Boethius" (Was: Boethius, Nietzsche and civilization) |
23 Mar 2005 03:40:10 PM |
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Boethius
Do you use Big Chief tablets? (Sorry)
ilya_shambat2004@yahoo.com wrote:
Boethius believed that reason is highest manifestation of human
nature,
and that pursuit of understanding, based on the order of nature, is
the
highest pleasure. He says that other pleasures are crass in
comparison.
There is something I want to ask him retroactively. Isn't human
nature
supposed to be, like, fallen, and isn't whatever is appropriate to
human nature not right by, like, God or something?
"Just In - God Disapproves of Breathing."
( - David Koresh?)
The societies that believe similar things - societies that suppress
emotions - result in cruelty, heartlessness and coldness. As
Nietzsce,
consummating the WASP character, said, "Man is that which must be
overcome" - resulting of course in a society that, as he himself
ordained it, must be always at war, finding more and more merely-men
to
feed on.
So you would prefer a society that did not suppress emotions.
Hmm. Difficult. How about, say (assuming this were possible) a society
where "love" was glorified in popular music, where the plot of TV soap
operas revolved around the emotional dilemmas of "ordinary people",
where TV discussion programs routinely featured angry or distraught
"guests" who are frequently shown coming to blows and requiring
physical restraint, where the Press and other media celebrate the
emotional outbursts and entanglements of "celebrities" whose only claim
to fame is often that of having had some sort of a "feeling" about
something at some time, where educational programs are in full retreat
in the face of the philosophy of "it's not what you know, but how you
feel", where being a Victim (or feeling oneself to be so) is an instant
guarantor of credibility and social status and an endless source of
absurd litigation, where an elaborate language of euphemism has been
developed to protect the "feelings" of alleged "victims" or
"minorities", where aggression is freely indulged and channelled
through rationally indefensible televised wars and a whole industry
devoted to collective catharsis in cinemas and on TV screens...
That's your Utopia? If so, don't look now, but you're a lucky man...
People with emotions are needed to feed the society; but of course
these people are despised and treated like garbage.
Huh? Last I looked, they were fed and feted on Oprah.
People with emotions, and precious little else: the perfect capitalist
consumer, surely? Watch more MTV (with the sound down) to get this:
they are not despised, on the contrary, they are our role models,
perhaps the only ones we are still allowed or expected to cherish.
"HE TRIED TO KILL MY PAW."
Thus, class
develops of scapegoeats - of people who are used to feed everyone
emotionally but get treated like dirt. This, in and of itself,
completely demolishes the pretense of such societies toward morality,
and the only honest response is: REMOVE THE SCAPEGOAT AND MAKE THE
PLACE COLLAPSE ON ITSELF.
AS IT SHOULD.
??
When I was in Tucson, I ran into a man named Scott, the publisher of
Tucson Poet. He said that the poetic imagery for the civilization is
eros being extracted from people through advertisement to financially
power the civilization ("Man sees naked woman, says want to breed
with
naked woman, buys refrigerator.") Question: WHAT LEGACY - WHAT
CONSUMMATION OF EFFORT OF MAN - DO YOU SEEK? Refrigerators? The
consummation of human endeavor, that? OR something that lasts?
That's a different question. Fridge advertisements are part and parcel
of an economic system which you can either celebrate, meekly accept or
work to change or replace, your choice. If you think that there is
something wrong with trying to sell fridges via naked women (not that
I've ever seen this happening, exactly as such) then by all means rail
against it, and either propose a better way to sell fridges or explain
why the sale of fridges isn't necessary in the first place. (Fr:
"Frigidaire, c'est pas necessaire". Inuit: "I knew it".)
You want a society organised towards the achievement of "something that
lasts"? Some folks back in your homeland had the same idea once: you
know what happened. Utopias look good (and are fairly easy to dream up)
until you see the fine print and check out the the behind-the-scenes
machinery.
You haven't said anything new yet.
.
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| User: "Rosena" |
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| Title: Re: Boethius, Nietzsche and civilization |
20 Mar 2005 11:35:08 AM |
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Ilya,
I like you. You seek meaning and that is unusual in this day and age.
But you need to sit down, calm down, gather texts, and study one
thinker for a long long time, one tradition of thought, and then digest
it as fully as possible. You are all over the map and thus the thought
of the thinkers you reference are distorted.
BTW, Nietzsche thought utilitarians were the scourge of the earth and
the destroyers of the sacred and the beautiful. Read -- SLOW -- all
the work in toto -- Digest -- then only then speak slowly to the ideas.
Best
Rosena
ilya_shambat2004@yahoo.com wrote:
Boethius believed that reason is highest manifestation of human
nature,
and that pursuit of understanding, based on the order of nature, is
the
highest pleasure. He says that other pleasures are crass in
comparison.
There is something I want to ask him retroactively. Isn't human
nature
supposed to be, like, fallen, and isn't whatever is appropriate to
human nature not right by, like, God or something?
The societies that believe similar things - societies that suppress
emotions - result in cruelty, heartlessness and coldness. As
Nietzsce,
consummating the WASP character, said, "Man is that which must be
overcome" - resulting of course in a society that, as he himself
ordained it, must be always at war, finding more and more merely-men
to
feed on.
People with emotions are needed to feed the society; but of course
these people are despised and treated like garbage. Thus, class
develops of scapegoeats - of people who are used to feed everyone
emotionally but get treated like dirt. This, in and of itself,
completely demolishes the pretense of such societies toward morality,
and the only honest response is: REMOVE THE SCAPEGOAT AND MAKE THE
PLACE COLLAPSE ON ITSELF.
AS IT SHOULD.
When I was in Tucson, I ran into a man named Scott, the publisher of
Tucson Poet. He said that the poetic imagery for the civilization is
eros being extracted from people through advertisement to financially
power the civilization ("Man sees naked woman, says want to breed
with
naked woman, buys refrigerator.") Question: WHAT LEGACY - WHAT
CONSUMMATION OF EFFORT OF MAN - DO YOU SEEK? Refrigerators? The
consummation of human endeavor, that? OR something that lasts?
Is man tool of machine or is machine tool of something perhaps
better?
Is consummation of human project society - an arrangement of
fulfilling
of wants, a machine? Or is there perhaps better destiny: Creation of
civilization: A blossoming of the inspired and the wise and the
principled: A legacy comparable to that of Renaissance, with
masterpieces in every area of human endeavor, that future generations
will be proud of?
MAKE SOCIETY TOOL OF CIVILIZATION.
To elaborate on Scott's idea. THe utilitarian society uses every
emotion as tool of machinery. Solution to make this produce something
higher:
Consummate the social enterprise with brilliant effort in every
endeavor.
And thus put society in its place - as a tool of a higher purpose and
a
means to a legacy that will make all proud. Now and for centuries to
come.
Society in service of civilization.
Ilya Shambat.
http://www.geocities.com/ilya_shambat2005/poems.htm
http://www.geocities.com/ilya_shambat2005
.
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| User: "F®ank" |
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| Title: Re: Boethius, Nietzsche and civilization |
20 Mar 2005 11:44:10 AM |
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In news:1111340108.257649.294990@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com,
Rosena <filpriros@aol.com> wrote :
Ilya,
I like you. You seek meaning and that is unusual in this day and age.
But you need to sit down, calm down, gather texts, and study one
thinker for a long long time, one tradition of thought, and then
digest it as fully as possible. You are all over the map and thus the
thought of the thinkers you reference are distorted.
BTW, Nietzsche thought utilitarians were the scourge of the earth and
the destroyers of the sacred and the beautiful. Read -- SLOW -- all
the work in toto -- Digest -- then only then speak slowly to the
ideas.
Yeah.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Boethius, Nietzsche and civilization |
21 Mar 2005 12:42:47 PM |
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Rosena wrote:
Ilya,
I like you. You seek meaning and that is unusual in this day and
age.
But you need to sit down, calm down, gather texts, and study one
thinker for a long long time, one tradition of thought, and then
digest
it as fully as possible. You are all over the map and thus the
thought
of the thinkers you reference are distorted.
BTW, Nietzsche thought utilitarians were the scourge of the earth and
the destroyers of the sacred and the beautiful. Read -- SLOW -- all
the work in toto -- Digest -- then only then speak slowly to the
ideas.
I hear you.
What I was coming up with was something to the order of: Civilization
is organized on the basis of what it does with emotional motives in
human psyche. Thus, there's utilitarian civilization that harnesses it
in service of self-perpetuation; fascist that harnesses it in service
of state; religious-spiritual that puts it in service of spiritual
goals; tribal that uses it for self-reproduction; etc.
My belief as to the current time in history: That utilitarian is a
stage; a creation of infrastructure that is then to be employed to
create a global renaissance, with masterpieces in every area of human
endeavor creating legacy that will make future generations proud of
living here. I do not believe that it is necessary to change systems
for that, but rather to change values. If people value beauty then they
will use demand side of economic equation to tap into endless supply of
human genius, and procure & commission works in every area of human
endeavor that are the greatest in history.
What do you think of that?
Ilya Shambat.
.
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| User: "mWarrior" |
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| Title: Re: Boethius, Nietzsche and civilization |
20 Mar 2005 11:42:09 PM |
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Why don't you just post this crap to revelant newsgroups. Do you think
that post this ***** to every single newgroup that gets traffic
increases your fame? you are at the level of spam (which if you are
keeping count in lower then the level of troll)
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: Boethius, Nietzsche and civilization |
20 Mar 2005 01:33:52 PM |
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who are you, can you help?
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| User: "Rosena" |
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| Title: Re: Boethius, Nietzsche and civilization |
20 Mar 2005 01:56:31 PM |
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David wrote:
who are you, can you help?
David,
Ilya is just a nice man, but he can't help. Stick with regular ASDers,
and do the best you can to explain how you are feeling and your
background so they can know how to help.
Stay ON YOUR MEDS -- and follow directions on WHEN to take. :)
Hang in.
Rosena
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