A depressed mindset forms a bubble around one's mind, in which all
roads lead to nowhere and all things are reflections of the same lie of
worthlessness, helplessness and self-perpetuating despair.
Like AIDS that attacks the immune system and makes it impossible for
body to fight it, depression attacks the motivational structure and
makes it hardest for people to leave its grasp. The very actions and
thoughts that would help a person come out of the depression, come
under attack and are viewed as impossible. The negative feeling feeds
into the negative action which feeds into the negative feeling. The
person keeps spiraling downwards until there is nowhere further down to
go, which appears to prove the worldview of the depression - but which
of course is achieved by depression hijacking the person's motivational
structure and leading it down that road.
As someone who's been in such bubbles - and seen other people in them -
I am of the conclusion that extricating the mind from the bubble most
often requires an effort of two. Someone has to see the bubble from
without; and the person must be able to see it themselves, and to be
determined to push their way out of it, with however much handholding
this might require.
The first part - and I've seen this necessary even for people who are
strong, intelligent and knowledgeable - is that it often requires
someone else to see from the external perspective and convey to the
person -
That the bubble does not reflect objective reality -
That there is the world outside the bubble -
That the mental skein created by the depression is not the truth - not
of the world, not of the person's character, not of who they actually
are, not of what they have to look forward to, not of humanity, not of
nature, not of God, not of the universe -
That they are not at fault for having entered the bubble, as this
happens to the best of us -
And that there is a truth outside of the bubble that does not lead
toward self-extinction, and that it is possible for the person to throw
off the bubble and then be able to live well.
And secondly, it requires the person who's in the bubble to be open to
that input and then be willing to throw off the bubble and do things
that would lead to it being undone.
The more experience a person has in that, the less effort it will take
on the part of the others later on if they are again to start spiraling
downward.
But even the most experienced may often need a positive external
perspective, as seeing bubble when one is inside it is not an easy
thing to be able to do.
http://ibshambat.blogspot.com
Ilya Shambat.
.
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| User: "Bret Cahill" |
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| Title: 3 Plug 'n Chug Ways To Fight Depression |
20 Sep 2006 07:29:28 AM |
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1. Read any Steinbeck book
2. Take a trip to Mexico or move to the desert
3. Move south every fall and north every spring for more daylight
Bret Cahill
If you are depressed remember some things are pleasant and some things
are useful and some things are both pleasant and useful, like womens'
breasts.
-- Nietzsche
.
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| User: "Ivan Marsh" |
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| Title: Re: 3 Plug 'n Chug Ways To Fight Depression |
20 Sep 2006 09:44:13 AM |
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On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 05:29:28 -0700, Bret Cahill wrote:
1. Read any Steinbeck book
Yea... East of Eden, that'll cheer anyone up.
2. Take a trip to Mexico or move to the desert
Assuming your financial situation isn't part of what's making you
depressed.
3. Move south every fall and north every spring for more daylight
See answer to number two.
Bret Cahill
Apparently you think all depressed people are swimming in liquid assets.
.
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| User: "Bret Cahill" |
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| Title: Re: 3 Plug 'n Chug Ways To Fight Depression |
20 Sep 2006 01:35:31 PM |
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1. Read any Steinbeck book
Yea... East of Eden, that'll cheer anyone up.
First, a happy book isn't necessarily what you want if you are
depressed.
Second, _East of Eden_ _was_ optimistic.
2. Take a trip to Mexico or move to the desert
Assuming your financial situation isn't part of what's making you
depressed.
It doesn't cost much to go to Mexico if you get away from the border
towns and tourist traps.
3. Move south every fall and north every spring for more daylight
See answer to number two.
.. . .
Apparently you think all depressed people are swimming in liquid assets.
Most depressed people are.
Bret Cahill
.
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| User: "Ivan Marsh" |
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| Title: Re: 3 Plug 'n Chug Ways To Fight Depression |
20 Sep 2006 01:57:16 PM |
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On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 11:35:31 -0700, Bret Cahill wrote:
1. Read any Steinbeck book
Yea... East of Eden, that'll cheer anyone up.
First, a happy book isn't necessarily what you want if you are
depressed.
Second, _East of Eden_ _was_ optimistic.
Optimism is depressing.
2. Take a trip to Mexico or move to the desert
Assuming your financial situation isn't part of what's making you
depressed.
It doesn't cost much to go to Mexico if you get away from the border
towns and tourist traps.
Hmmm... fix my car or go to Mexico?
3. Move south every fall and north every spring for more daylight
See answer to number two.
. . .
Apparently you think all depressed people are swimming in liquid assets.
Most depressed people are.
Show of hands?
.
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| User: "Bret Cahill" |
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| Title: Re: 3 Plug 'n Chug Ways To Fight Depression |
21 Sep 2006 07:17:32 PM |
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Depression ain't being worried about bills or unhappy with your life.
Bret Cahill
"Happiness? Only an Englishman wants happiness."
-- Nietzsche
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| User: "Ivan Marsh" |
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| Title: Re: 3 Plug 'n Chug Ways To Fight Depression |
22 Sep 2006 10:16:28 AM |
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On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 17:17:32 -0700, Bret Cahill wrote:
Depression ain't being worried about bills or unhappy with your life.
Duh.
Would you rather be depressed and rich, or depressed and poor?
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| User: "Bret Cahill" |
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| Title: Sleep Depravation Is ALWAYS A Cure for Depression |
22 Sep 2006 06:16:07 PM |
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Depression ain't being worried about bills or unhappy with your life.
Duh.
Would you rather be depressed and rich, or depressed and poor?
Both are happy situations.
If you are depressed and rich you can afford to spend DOZENS of dollars
for a trip to Mexico.
And if you are depressed and poor you can simply work 18 hour days.
Sleep depravation is always a cure for depression.
In fact, just reading my posts will make you feel like you suffer from
sleep depravation.
Bret Cahill
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| User: "eoygeo" |
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| Title: Re: 3 Plug 'n Chug Ways To Fight Depression |
22 Sep 2006 10:40:59 AM |
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Ivan Marsh wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 17:17:32 -0700, Bret Cahill wrote:
Depression ain't being worried about bills or unhappy with your life.
Duh.
Would you rather be depressed and rich, or depressed and poor?
The singer the Prince complained that he does not like being so short
said to his sister, his sister asked him if he want to be a tall and
poor or being short and rich, Prince said he is happy being short and
rich.
.
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: 3 Plug 'n Chug Ways To Fight Depression |
20 Sep 2006 11:53:13 AM |
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On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:44:13 -0500, Ivan Marsh <annoyed@you.now> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 05:29:28 -0700, Bret Cahill wrote:
1. Read any Steinbeck book
Yea... East of Eden, that'll cheer anyone up.
2. Take a trip to Mexico or move to the desert
Assuming your financial situation isn't part of what's making you
depressed.
3. Move south every fall and north every spring for more daylight
See answer to number two.
Maybe we don't need a lot of resources. We could just trust God and make a
mass exodus. The initial problems are 1: Who gets to play Moses, and 2:
Making sure we have a map and GPS system so we don't wander around the
Midwest for 40 years.
We can get water in public facilities, and semi-fresh manna from McDonalds
and KFC dumpsters.
.
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| User: "Alan Harding" |
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| Title: Re: 3 Plug 'n Chug Ways To Fight Depression |
20 Sep 2006 12:31:40 PM |
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In message <c7s2h21ttn1q7ss7h3urerhchpgcife2ut@news.easynews.com>,
CyberDroog <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> writes
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:44:13 -0500, Ivan Marsh <annoyed@you.now> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 05:29:28 -0700, Bret Cahill wrote:
1. Read any Steinbeck book
Yea... East of Eden, that'll cheer anyone up.
2. Take a trip to Mexico or move to the desert
Assuming your financial situation isn't part of what's making you
depressed.
3. Move south every fall and north every spring for more daylight
See answer to number two.
Maybe we don't need a lot of resources. We could just trust God and make a
mass exodus. The initial problems are 1: Who gets to play Moses, and 2:
Making sure we have a map and GPS system so we don't wander around the
Midwest for 40 years.
We can get water in public facilities, and semi-fresh manna from McDonalds
and KFC dumpsters.
It's good to know how little we need to cure us, isn't it? Of course,
I'd need the air-fare; I could put it onto the card, then skip the
country. Which would be the best hub to start wandering from?
--
The opinions given above may be mine. They might also
just be what I feel like saying right now, okay?
.
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| User: "Ivan Marsh" |
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| Title: Re: 3 Plug 'n Chug Ways To Fight Depression |
20 Sep 2006 01:25:46 PM |
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On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:53:13 +0000, CyberDroog wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:44:13 -0500, Ivan Marsh <annoyed@you.now> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 05:29:28 -0700, Bret Cahill wrote:
1. Read any Steinbeck book
Yea... East of Eden, that'll cheer anyone up.
2. Take a trip to Mexico or move to the desert
Assuming your financial situation isn't part of what's making you
depressed.
3. Move south every fall and north every spring for more daylight
See answer to number two.
Maybe we don't need a lot of resources. We could just trust God and make a
mass exodus. The initial problems are 1: Who gets to play Moses, and 2:
Making sure we have a map and GPS system so we don't wander around the
Midwest for 40 years.
We can get water in public facilities, and semi-fresh manna from McDonalds
and KFC dumpsters.
I don't care if it's parted or not... I ain't walkin' across the Rio
Grande.
.
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
20 Sep 2006 01:01:29 PM |
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wrote:
A depressed mindset forms a bubble around one's mind, in which all
roads lead to nowhere and all things are reflections of the same lie of
worthlessness, helplessness and self-perpetuating despair.
In a book called programes of the brain J.Z. Young talks about an
animal bowing or lowering its head to show submission to a higher up in
the dominance hierarchy. This in social species. I think he goes on to
say that this is why when we first get depressed we want to lower our
head and put the world generaly higher in out conception.
RANK THEORY from
Evolutionary Psychology
(2nd edition 2001)
by Anthony Stevens & John Price
http://www.huxley.net/rankmood/
"...rank theory proposes that depression is an adaptive response to
losing rank and conceiving of oneself as a loser. The adaptive function
of the depression, according to rank theory, is to facilitate losing
and to promote accommodation to the fact that one has lost. In other
words, the depressive state evolved to promote the acceptance of the
subordinate role and the loss of resources which can only be secured by
holding higher rank in the dominance hierarchy. The function of this
depressive adaptation is to prevent the loser in a status conflict from
suffering further injury and to preserve the stability and competitive
efficiency of the group by maintaining social homeostasis.
In circumstances of defeat and enforced subordination, an internal
inhibitory process comes into operation which causes the individual to
cease competing and reduce his level of aspiration. This inhibitory
process is involuntary and results in the loss of energy, depressed
mood, sleep disturbance, poor appetite, retarded movements, and loss of
confidence which are typical characteristics of depression.
The selective advantage of an evolved capacity for the recognition and
acceptance of rank difference in social groups is that it reduces
aggressiveness and establishes precedence in granting rights of access
to indispensable resources such as territory, food, and potential
mates. It follows that gaining rank is associated with elevated mood
and losing rank with depressed mood. The evolutionary advantage of
living in groups is the protection it provides from predators. For Homo
sapiens it also afforded protection from other hominid groups. Living
in a group became crucial for safety, for access to resources, for
co-operative hunting of large game, and for reproductive success. A
sense of belonging has thus become indispensable to our physical and
mental security. To be popular and hold rank within a group are
immensely desirable accomplishments; to perceive oneself as unpopular
and without rank are causes of misery and unhappiness; while to be
rejected from the group altogether is one of life's greatest disasters.
It is in terms of these factors that joy and sorrow, mania and
depression, contentment and anxiety can be most readily understood.
One important contribution of rank theory is that it has proposes a
hypothesis of how depression actually evolved: it emerged as the
yielding component of ritual agonistic conflict. This has been called
the yielding subroutine (Price and Sloman, 1987). The adaptive function
of the yielding subroutine is twofold: first, it ensures that the
yielder truly yields and does not attempt to make a comeback, and,
second, the yielder reassures the winner that yielding has truly taken
place, so that the conflict ends, with no further damage to the
yielder. Relative social harmony is then restored.
Similarly, we may offer the hypothesis that mania evolved as the
winning component of ritual agonistic behaviour: the winning
subroutine. Here again, the adaptive function is twofold: first, it
ensures that the winner truly wins and makes clear that any attempt at
a comeback by the yielder will be successfully resisted, and, second,
it ensures that should the yielder attempt to reopen the conflict, the
winner will have such resources of confidence, determination, strength,
and energy that he will force the yielder to yield for good and all.
Both yielding and winning subroutines thus ensure that social change is
accomplished relatively quickly without too much disruption of group
activities and that once it has occurred it will prove lasting. The
object of the losing strategy is damage limitation, that of the winning
strategy is status preservation. Inevitably, such subroutines carry
greater significance among group-living species than among those living
a solitary existence. A solitary animal fights for possession of a
territory. If he loses a contest for one territory, then he must be
able to withdraw and move on to fight for another. Yielding should
involve only a brief "disappointment" on the basis that he who fights
and runs away live to fight another day. Group-living individuals, on
the other hand, require more prolonged and complex winning and losing
subroutines, for a loser may have to give up a position in the
hierarchy that he has held for many years. Should he not greatly modify
his behaviour he could be expelled from the group. Chance's concept of
"reverted escape" becomes relevant here.
That the incidence of depression is higher and its course longer than
hypomania suggest that natural selection has favoured the prolonged
yielding subroutine over its winning equivalent. This could reflect the
evident fact that in any asymmetrical society there are potentially
more losers than winners..."
RANK THEORY from
Evolutionary Psychology
(2nd edition 2001)
by Anthony Stevens & John Price
http://www.huxley.net/rankmood/
The Evolution of Depression - Does it Have a Role?
Saturday 3 April 2004
Major and minor depression, even post partum depression - could they
serve an important evolutionary function? Is depression a biological
pathology or an adaptation, critical to our reproductive success and
survival as a species? This week, Natasha Mitchell is joined by two
evolutionary biologists who argue that our capacity to be depressed has
evolved over millennia to help us respond to and cope with difficult
social circumstances. It's a deeply controversial thesis that, they
argue, could have implications for how we read and treat depression in
a therapeutic setting. But critics are concerned about what these
implications might be.
Transcript
Relevant links and references at the end of the transcript
Natasha Mitchell: And hello, welcome to All in the Mind, Natasha
Mitchell joining you once again. This week a controversial discussion
that's sure to provoke - depression, could it in fact serve an
important evolutionary function? Is it an illness or a biological
adaptation critical to our reproductive success and survival as a
species?
Ed Hagen: I actually suspect that it's not an illness and so I
decided to pursue an alternative theory that depression actually serves
a useful function, or at least did serve a useful function for our
ancestors over evolutionary time. This is a very radical proposal that
goes against virtually everything that psychiatry believes and it may
well be wrong but I think it's something that's worth considering.
Paul Watson: : People who are invested in the disease model of
depression have been studying it for a long, long time. I think a lot
of them would admit that they still don't understand what depression
is. Certainly it's a state of mind that causes great misery, is very
painful.
Natasha Mitchell: And suicide in some cases.
Paul Watson: : And suicide, but that does not mean there is not a set
of adaptations working in the mind that are trying to further the
person's life at least from a biological perspective. Within the next
50 - 100 - 200 years, it doesn't really matter, the
pharmaceutical industry is going to have our neurochemistry down to the
point where they will be able to save us from having any adversive
experience whatsoever, no matter how our life is actually going. Before
we start turning off all these unpleasant experiences, we need to know
what those unpleasant experiences are for - to understand what the
potential function of depression is in human life.
Natasha Mitchell: Evolutionary biologists Drs Edward Hagen and Paul
Watson. The World Health Organisation has predicted that by the year
2020 unipolar depression will account for the second largest burden of
disease. Which is a staggering statistic and one that makes the
suggestion that depression might have an evolutionary purpose
understandably implausible. After all how could an experience that
makes us feel so bad sometimes for so long, be good for the species?
What use might our ancestral mind have had for depression?
Dr Daniel Nettle is Lecturer in Psychology at the University of
Newcastle upon Tyne and author of Strong Imagination: Madness,
Creativity and Human Nature.
Daniel Nettle: Darwin of course is best remembered for the Origin of
Species in which he said that things that animal species have are there
because they've helped them to survive and reproduce. But he also
wrote another wonderful book called the Expressions of the Emotions in
Man and Animals in which he said that maybe some of the patterns of
behaviour we have represent sort of solutions to the problem of how to
survive and reproduce under a particular circumstance, just like having
gills or having swim fins does on a fish. So for example he thinks of
things like cats arching their back and sticking their hair on end when
they're frightened. And he says, well this is to maybe to make them
look bigger and so on. And in that sense there are adaptations.
They're ways of getting us through a particular situation so that we
can continue to survive and reproduce...
More here;
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/mind/stories/s1077027.htm
An Evolutionary Adaptationist Theory of Unipolar Depression:
Depression as an adaptation for social navigation, especially for
overcoming costly contractual constraints of the individual's social
niche
Dr. Paul J. Watson
http://biology.unm.edu/Biology/pwatson/public_html/dp1.htm
Like AIDS that attacks the immune system and makes it impossible for
body to fight it, depression attacks the motivational structure and
makes it hardest for people to leave its grasp. The very actions and
thoughts that would help a person come out of the depression, come
under attack and are viewed as impossible. The negative feeling feeds
into the negative action which feeds into the negative feeling. The
person keeps spiraling downwards until there is nowhere further down to
go, which appears to prove the worldview of the depression - but which
of course is achieved by depression hijacking the person's motivational
structure and leading it down that road.
As someone who's been in such bubbles - and seen other people in them -
I am of the conclusion that extricating the mind from the bubble most
often requires an effort of two. Someone has to see the bubble from
without; and the person must be able to see it themselves, and to be
determined to push their way out of it, with however much handholding
this might require.
The first part - and I've seen this necessary even for people who are
strong, intelligent and knowledgeable - is that it often requires
someone else to see from the external perspective and convey to the
person -
That the bubble does not reflect objective reality -
That there is the world outside the bubble -
That the mental skein created by the depression is not the truth - not
of the world, not of the person's character, not of who they actually
are, not of what they have to look forward to, not of humanity, not of
nature, not of God, not of the universe -
That they are not at fault for having entered the bubble, as this
happens to the best of us -
And that there is a truth outside of the bubble that does not lead
toward self-extinction, and that it is possible for the person to throw
off the bubble and then be able to live well.
And secondly, it requires the person who's in the bubble to be open to
that input and then be willing to throw off the bubble and do things
that would lead to it being undone.
The more experience a person has in that, the less effort it will take
on the part of the others later on if they are again to start spiraling
downward.
But even the most experienced may often need a positive external
perspective, as seeing bubble when one is inside it is not an easy
thing to be able to do.
http://ibshambat.blogspot.com
Ilya Shambat.
.
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| User: "Buzzard" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
20 Sep 2006 09:25:07 PM |
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Immortalist wrote:
In a book called programes of the brain J.Z. Young talks about an
animal bowing or lowering its head to show submission to a higher up in
the dominance hierarchy. This in social species. I think he goes on to
say that this is why when we first get depressed we want to lower our
head and put the world generaly higher in out conception.
RANK THEORY from
Evolutionary Psychology
(2nd edition 2001)
by Anthony Stevens & John Price
http://www.huxley.net/rankmood/
"...rank theory proposes that depression is an adaptive response to
losing rank and conceiving of oneself as a loser. The adaptive function
of the depression, according to rank theory, is to facilitate losing
and to promote accommodation to the fact that one has lost. In other
words, the depressive state evolved to promote the acceptance of the
subordinate role and the loss of resources which can only be secured by
holding higher rank in the dominance hierarchy. The function of this
depressive adaptation is to prevent the loser in a status conflict from
suffering further injury and to preserve the stability and competitive
efficiency of the group by maintaining social homeostasis.
(snip for brevity)
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGHhhhhhhhh......
If this turns out to be true,
then that explains a *lot* of things.
A lot of very *infuriating* things.
--
Vulture of the Damned
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| User: "Rosepetal" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
20 Sep 2006 06:40:14 AM |
|
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wrote:
A depressed mindset forms a bubble around one's mind, in which all
roads lead to nowhere and all things are reflections of the same lie of
worthlessness, helplessness and self-perpetuating despair.
Like AIDS that attacks the immune system and makes it impossible for
body to fight it, depression attacks the motivational structure and
makes it hardest for people to leave its grasp. The very actions and
thoughts that would help a person come out of the depression, come
under attack and are viewed as impossible. The negative feeling feeds
into the negative action which feeds into the negative feeling. The
person keeps spiraling downwards until there is nowhere further down to
go, which appears to prove the worldview of the depression - but which
of course is achieved by depression hijacking the person's motivational
structure and leading it down that road.
As someone who's been in such bubbles - and seen other people in them -
I am of the conclusion that extricating the mind from the bubble most
often requires an effort of two. Someone has to see the bubble from
without; and the person must be able to see it themselves, and to be
determined to push their way out of it, with however much handholding
this might require.
The first part - and I've seen this necessary even for people who are
strong, intelligent and knowledgeable - is that it often requires
someone else to see from the external perspective and convey to the
person -
That the bubble does not reflect objective reality -
That there is the world outside the bubble -
That the mental skein created by the depression is not the truth - not
of the world, not of the person's character, not of who they actually
are, not of what they have to look forward to, not of humanity, not of
nature, not of God, not of the universe -
That they are not at fault for having entered the bubble, as this
happens to the best of us -
And that there is a truth outside of the bubble that does not lead
toward self-extinction, and that it is possible for the person to throw
off the bubble and then be able to live well.
And secondly, it requires the person who's in the bubble to be open to
that input and then be willing to throw off the bubble and do things
that would lead to it being undone.
The more experience a person has in that, the less effort it will take
on the part of the others later on if they are again to start spiraling
downward.
But even the most experienced may often need a positive external
perspective, as seeing bubble when one is inside it is not an easy
thing to be able to do.
http://ibshambat.blogspot.com
Ilya Shambat.
Its interesting that the brain actually changes to accomadate the lack
of stimulation. If it is posible for this to occur then it is also
possible for therapies to act as well as medication.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
21 Sep 2006 06:46:31 AM |
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Rosepetal wrote:
Its interesting that the brain actually changes to accomadate the lack
of stimulation. If it is posible for this to occur then it is also
possible for therapies to act as well as medication.
That's correct. Never thought about it this way.
.
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| User: "chazwin" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
20 Sep 2006 02:29:16 AM |
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wrote:
A depressed mindset forms a bubble around one's mind, in which all
roads lead to nowhere and all things are reflections of the same lie of
worthlessness, helplessness and self-perpetuating despair.
Like AIDS that attacks the immune system and makes it impossible for
body to fight it, depression attacks the motivational structure and
makes it hardest for people to leave its grasp. The very actions and
thoughts that would help a person come out of the depression, come
under attack and are viewed as impossible. The negative feeling feeds
into the negative action which feeds into the negative feeling. The
person keeps spiraling downwards until there is nowhere further down to
go, which appears to prove the worldview of the depression - but which
of course is achieved by depression hijacking the person's motivational
structure and leading it down that road.
As someone who's been in such bubbles - and seen other people in them -
I am of the conclusion that extricating the mind from the bubble most
often requires an effort of two. Someone has to see the bubble from
without; and the person must be able to see it themselves, and to be
determined to push their way out of it, with however much handholding
this might require.
The first part - and I've seen this necessary even for people who are
strong, intelligent and knowledgeable - is that it often requires
someone else to see from the external perspective and convey to the
person -
That the bubble does not reflect objective reality -
That there is the world outside the bubble -
That the mental skein created by the depression is not the truth - not
of the world, not of the person's character, not of who they actually
are, not of what they have to look forward to, not of humanity, not of
nature, not of God, not of the universe -
That they are not at fault for having entered the bubble, as this
happens to the best of us -
And that there is a truth outside of the bubble that does not lead
toward self-extinction, and that it is possible for the person to throw
off the bubble and then be able to live well.
And secondly, it requires the person who's in the bubble to be open to
that input and then be willing to throw off the bubble and do things
that would lead to it being undone.
The more experience a person has in that, the less effort it will take
on the part of the others later on if they are again to start spiraling
downward.
But even the most experienced may often need a positive external
perspective, as seeing bubble when one is inside it is not an easy
thing to be able to do.
http://ibshambat.blogspot.com
Ilya Shambat.
Sadly depression is an undeniable part of ones experience. There is on
the one hand the manic, on the other the depressive, both can exist in
the same person. It brings into stark reality which version of their
experience can they trust for the what we all insist on: a clearly
defined version of reality.? For whilst those that are "bipolar" are
in the depression they are able to rationalise why they are uselss and
sad: whilst they are manic they can similarly rationalise why they are
great, creative, amusing, good, and interesting. Most people suffer
from "manic/depression" to some small degree. This can manifest in
silliness and despair. There is no simple pure natural and balanced
reaction to the experience of one life. There is no equivalence in
phenomenological reality.
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| User: "John Jones" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
21 Sep 2006 04:19:00 AM |
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wrote:
A depressed mindset forms a bubble around one's mind, in which all
roads lead to nowhere and all things are reflections of the same lie of
worthlessness, helplessness and self-perpetuating despair.
Like AIDS that attacks the immune system and makes it impossible for
body to fight it, depression attacks the motivational structure and
makes it hardest for people to leave its grasp. The very actions and
thoughts that would help a person come out of the depression, come
under attack and are viewed as impossible. The negative feeling feeds
into the negative action which feeds into the negative feeling. The
person keeps spiraling downwards until there is nowhere further down to
go, which appears to prove the worldview of the depression - but which
of course is achieved by depression hijacking the person's motivational
structure and leading it down that road.
As someone who's been in such bubbles - and seen other people in them -
I am of the conclusion that extricating the mind from the bubble most
often requires an effort of two. Someone has to see the bubble from
without; and the person must be able to see it themselves, and to be
determined to push their way out of it, with however much handholding
this might require.
The first part - and I've seen this necessary even for people who are
strong, intelligent and knowledgeable - is that it often requires
someone else to see from the external perspective and convey to the
person -
That the bubble does not reflect objective reality -
That there is the world outside the bubble -
That the mental skein created by the depression is not the truth - not
of the world, not of the person's character, not of who they actually
are, not of what they have to look forward to, not of humanity, not of
nature, not of God, not of the universe -
That they are not at fault for having entered the bubble, as this
happens to the best of us -
And that there is a truth outside of the bubble that does not lead
toward self-extinction, and that it is possible for the person to throw
off the bubble and then be able to live well.
And secondly, it requires the person who's in the bubble to be open to
that input and then be willing to throw off the bubble and do things
that would lead to it being undone.
The more experience a person has in that, the less effort it will take
on the part of the others later on if they are again to start spiraling
downward.
But even the most experienced may often need a positive external
perspective, as seeing bubble when one is inside it is not an easy
thing to be able to do.
http://ibshambat.blogspot.com
Ilya Shambat.
depression attacks the motivational structure
What attacks the motivational structure?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
21 Sep 2006 12:02:38 PM |
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John wrote:
depression attacks the motivational structure
What attacks the motivational structure?
Depression.
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| User: "John Jones" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
21 Sep 2006 12:51:20 PM |
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wrote:
John wrote:
depression attacks the motivational structure
What attacks the motivational structure?
Depression.
HaHa! nobody knows do they!
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
21 Sep 2006 01:30:12 PM |
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John Jones wrote:
ilya_shambat2004@yahoo.com wrote:
John wrote:
depression attacks the motivational structure
What attacks the motivational structure?
If the motivatioanl structure is identical to the activities of some
parts of the brain then it must be necessarily attacked by the activity
patterns of other parts of the brain?
Depression.
HaHa! nobody knows do they!
Nope, probably not, so I guess we'll have to just use the best theories
which explain the most and then revise them when we get better data and
ways to manipulate it.
.
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| User: "John Jones" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
22 Sep 2006 03:03:01 AM |
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Immortalist wrote:
John Jones wrote:
ilya_shambat2004@yahoo.com wrote:
John wrote:
depression attacks the motivational structure
What attacks the motivational structure?
If the motivatioanl structure is identical to the activities of some
parts of the brain then it must be necessarily attacked by the activity
patterns of other parts of the brain?
Depression.
HaHa! nobody knows do they!
Nope, probably not, so I guess we'll have to just use the best theories
which explain the most and then revise them when we get better data and
ways to manipulate it.
"must be necessarily 'attacked' by"
ways to manipulate it.
Manipulate 'what'?
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
22 Sep 2006 12:48:06 PM |
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John Jones wrote:
Immortalist wrote:
John Jones wrote:
ilya_shambat2004@yahoo.com wrote:
John wrote:
depression attacks the motivational structure
What attacks the motivational structure?
If the motivatioanl structure is identical to the activities of some
parts of the brain then it must be necessarily attacked by the activity
patterns of other parts of the brain?
Depression.
HaHa! nobody knows do they!
Nope, probably not, so I guess we'll have to just use the best theories
which explain the most and then revise them when we get better data and
ways to manipulate it.
"must be necessarily 'attacked' by"
ways to manipulate it.
Manipulate 'what'?
The theory with the most evidence makes the claim that motivation is
the activities of particular nerve cells and this theory claims that
your feeling of being a self or subjectivity is merely the activity of
nerve cells. The necessary part comes in under the assumption that only
other nerve cells can interfere with and adjust the patterns of
activity that are motivation except that particular sensory cells can
stimulate these nerve cells.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurophysiology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiology
You see this is not some deductive argument you can contradict and
eliminate. Your unstated assumption that motivation is not the
activities of nerve cells has no supporting evidence from you yet. You
merely try to make inductive theories appear deductive.
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| User: "John Jones" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
22 Sep 2006 02:01:30 PM |
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Immortalist wrote:
John Jones wrote:
Immortalist wrote:
John Jones wrote:
ilya_shambat2004@yahoo.com wrote:
John wrote:
depression attacks the motivational structure
What attacks the motivational structure?
If the motivatioanl structure is identical to the activities of some
parts of the brain then it must be necessarily attacked by the activity
patterns of other parts of the brain?
Depression.
HaHa! nobody knows do they!
Nope, probably not, so I guess we'll have to just use the best theories
which explain the most and then revise them when we get better data and
ways to manipulate it.
"must be necessarily 'attacked' by"
ways to manipulate it.
Manipulate 'what'?
The theory with the most evidence makes the claim that motivation is
the activities of particular nerve cells and this theory claims that
your feeling of being a self or subjectivity is merely the activity of
nerve cells. The necessary part comes in under the assumption that only
other nerve cells can interfere with and adjust the patterns of
activity that are motivation except that particular sensory cells can
stimulate these nerve cells.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurophysiology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiology
You see this is not some deductive argument you can contradict and
eliminate. Your unstated assumption that motivation is not the
activities of nerve cells has no supporting evidence from you yet. You
merely try to make inductive theories appear deductive.
One part manipulating the motivational part? Sounds like both parts are
motivational parts.
I still need to know what 'it' is, if 'it' is depression.
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| User: "Suzana" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
21 Sep 2006 07:38:36 AM |
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wrote:
A depressed mindset forms a bubble around one's mind, in which all
roads lead to nowhere and all things are reflections of the same lie of
worthlessness, helplessness and self-perpetuating despair.
Like AIDS that attacks the immune system and makes it impossible for
body to fight it, depression attacks the motivational structure and
makes it hardest for people to leave its grasp. The very actions and
thoughts that would help a person come out of the depression, come
under attack and are viewed as impossible. The negative feeling feeds
into the negative action which feeds into the negative feeling. The
person keeps spiraling downwards until there is nowhere further down to
go, which appears to prove the worldview of the depression - but which
of course is achieved by depression hijacking the person's motivational
structure and leading it down that road.
As someone who's been in such bubbles - and seen other people in them -
I am of the conclusion that extricating the mind from the bubble most
often requires an effort of two. Someone has to see the bubble from
without; and the person must be able to see it themselves, and to be
determined to push their way out of it, with however much handholding
this might require.
The first part - and I've seen this necessary even for people who are
strong, intelligent and knowledgeable - is that it often requires
someone else to see from the external perspective and convey to the
person -
That the bubble does not reflect objective reality -
That there is the world outside the bubble -
That the mental skein created by the depression is not the truth - not
of the world, not of the person's character, not of who they actually
are, not of what they have to look forward to, not of humanity, not of
nature, not of God, not of the universe -
That they are not at fault for having entered the bubble, as this
happens to the best of us -
And that there is a truth outside of the bubble that does not lead
toward self-extinction, and that it is possible for the person to throw
off the bubble and then be able to live well.
And secondly, it requires the person who's in the bubble to be open to
that input and then be willing to throw off the bubble and do things
that would lead to it being undone.
The more experience a person has in that, the less effort it will take
on the part of the others later on if they are again to start spiraling
downward.
But even the most experienced may often need a positive external
perspective, as seeing bubble when one is inside it is not an easy
thing to be able to do.
Depression is disease of doubt.
Depressed person doubts his/her worth, doubts her/his capability which
often leads to helplessness, sadness and worthlessness.
Drugs are very limited. In sense that hey often take too long to take
effect (6-8 weeks) and even when they do the effect is only in
stabilising mood not curing underlining causes.This is important
because most people recognise depression when it already peaked and
more time is not something they can afford.
Cognitive therapy yields good results, but it isn't enough. Peer
support is substantial and likely the best way to ensure depression is
recognised before it peaks and give the person enough time to prevent
it from taking more serious debilitating course.
.
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| User: "Roger Johansson" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
22 Sep 2006 05:10:50 AM |
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Suzana wrote:
Depression is disease of doubt.
Depressed person doubts his/her worth, doubts her/his capability which
often leads to helplessness, sadness and worthlessness.
You can turn that saying around, and say that:
Depression is a disease of other people's strong convictions.
If we live in a society where you need a strong ego, a lot of
determination, a lot of selfconfidence, the people who lack these
qualities will feel depressed or victimized.
Which is most sick, our western culture, or the weak and untrained
people who have not been hardened and do not have a strong ego?
I know a nice girl who is socially strong. But she told me once that
for 5 years in her youth she was very angry all the time.
People who are socially strong have been charged up somehow, with
anger, strong convictions like love, or have been trained to be
constantly speeded.
In the scientific field and where you need to think clearly, doubts are
better than strong convictions. But in social life strong convictions
are better than doubts, in this culture.
Maybe there is something wrong with this culture, based on thousands of
years of religious traditions, gender roles and social domination?
--
Roger J.
.
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| User: "cal" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
22 Sep 2006 08:15:38 AM |
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"Roger Johansson" <roger4911@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158919850.029675.273240@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Suzana wrote:
Depression is disease of doubt.
Depressed person doubts his/her worth, doubts her/his capability which
often leads to helplessness, sadness and worthlessness.
You can turn that saying around, and say that:
Depression is a disease of other people's strong convictions.
yet oddly enough, they're not the ones who suffer from it.
If we live in a society where you need a strong ego, a lot of
determination, a lot of selfconfidence, the people who lack these
qualities will feel depressed or victimized.
determination and self-confidence are two different things. you can have one
without the other. a self-confident person doesn't need to be egotistical or
"driven" to be well. people whose self-esteem has been battered need time,
and often help, to heal. too many people get neither the time nor the help.
this is where i see a social problem, not in the ability of the strong to
forge ahead. the illness is self-destructive and can be fatal.
Which is most sick, our western culture, or the weak and untrained
people who have not been hardened and do not have a strong ego?
I know a nice girl who is socially strong. But she told me once that
for 5 years in her youth she was very angry all the time.
People who are socially strong have been charged up somehow, with
anger, strong convictions like love, or have been trained to be
constantly speeded.
In the scientific field and where you need to think clearly, doubts are
better than strong convictions.
but self-confidence and the will to succeed are where the great results
come from.
But in social life strong convictions
are better than doubts, in this culture.
Maybe there is something wrong with this culture, based on thousands of
years of religious traditions, gender roles and social domination?
maybe, but i wouldn't want to fix it by denying people of strong convictions
their freedom to press on.
.
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| User: "Azure" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
26 Sep 2006 10:44:34 PM |
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cal wrote:
"Roger Johansson" <roger4911@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158919850.029675.273240@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Suzana wrote:
Depression is disease of doubt.
Depressed person doubts his/her worth, doubts her/his capability which
often leads to helplessness, sadness and worthlessness.
You can turn that saying around, and say that:
Depression is a disease of other people's strong convictions.
yet oddly enough, they're not the ones who suffer from it.
If we live in a society where you need a strong ego, a lot of
determination, a lot of selfconfidence, the people who lack these
qualities will feel depressed or victimized.
Those who possess such are usually called Megalomaniacs.
determination and self-confidence are two different things. you can have one
without the other. a self-confident person doesn't need to be egotistical or
"driven" to be well. people whose self-esteem has been battered need time,
and often help, to heal. too many people get neither the time nor the help.
Right an according to legends under certain circumstances, one can induce a
Nemesis reaction, :Karma or Justice, where in the person becomes as the churches
claim Possessed.
Yes, there is a "Covenant of God, the Statutory Covenant".
When it is violated the "Will of God, is the Great Equalizer of We the People".
this is where i see a social problem, not in the ability of the strong to
forge ahead. the illness is self-destructive and can be fatal.
So is the apathy of depression, I am worthless is far worse than "I Am".
Which is most sick, our western culture, or the weak and untrained
people who have not been hardened and do not have a strong ego?
What a "Romanesque" statement.
I know a nice girl who is socially strong. But she told me once that
for 5 years in her youth she was very angry all the time.
People who are socially strong have been charged up somehow, with
anger, strong convictions like love, or have been trained to be
constantly speeded.
What happens when you mix "Both", then induce a form of organic electric effect
into the picture?
In the scientific field and where you need to think clearly, doubts are
better than strong convictions.
Yes, the Argument is the force which creates the answers.
but self-confidence and the will to succeed are where the great results
come from.
But in social life strong convictions
are better than doubts, in this culture.
No, I once read America was originally populated by the "First Borns" those
expected to go to the new world get rich and support the rest of the family,
therefore the families sent their best.
Maybe there is something wrong with this culture, based on thousands of
years of religious traditions, gender roles and social domination?
YES, to much Roman ideology.
maybe, but i wouldn't want to fix it by denying people of strong convictions
their freedom to press on.
Tain's can be dangerous to try to stand in front of.
.
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| User: "%" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
26 Sep 2006 10:53:18 PM |
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"Azure" <tain@pharae.org> wrote in message
news:4519F3A2.81D76EAF@pharae.org...
cal wrote:
"Roger Johansson" <roger4911@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158919850.029675.273240@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Suzana wrote:
Depression is disease of doubt.
Depressed person doubts his/her worth, doubts her/his capability
which
often leads to helplessness, sadness and worthlessness.
You can turn that saying around, and say that:
Depression is a disease of other people's strong convictions.
yet oddly enough, they're not the ones who suffer from it.
If we live in a society where you need a strong ego, a lot of
determination, a lot of selfconfidence, the people who lack these
qualities will feel depressed or victimized.
Those who possess such are usually called Megalomaniacs.
determination and self-confidence are two different things. you can have
one
without the other. a self-confident person doesn't need to be
egotistical or
"driven" to be well. people whose self-esteem has been battered need
time,
and often help, to heal. too many people get neither the time nor the
help.
Right an according to legends under certain circumstances, one can induce
a
Nemesis reaction, :Karma or Justice, where in the person becomes as the
churches
claim Possessed.
Yes, there is a "Covenant of God, the Statutory Covenant".
When it is violated the "Will of God, is the Great Equalizer of We the
People".
this is where i see a social problem, not in the ability of the strong
to
forge ahead. the illness is self-destructive and can be fatal.
So is the apathy of depression, I am worthless is far worse than "I Am".
Which is most sick, our western culture, or the weak and untrained
people who have not been hardened and do not have a strong ego?
What a "Romanesque" statement.
I know a nice girl who is socially strong. But she told me once that
for 5 years in her youth she was very angry all the time.
People who are socially strong have been charged up somehow, with
anger, strong convictions like love, or have been trained to be
constantly speeded.
What happens when you mix "Both", then induce a form of organic electric
effect
into the picture?
In the scientific field and where you need to think clearly, doubts
are
better than strong convictions.
Yes, the Argument is the force which creates the answers.
but self-confidence and the will to succeed are where the great results
come from.
But in social life strong convictions
are better than doubts, in this culture.
No, I once read America was originally populated by the "First Borns"
those
expected to go to the new world get rich and support the rest of the
family,
therefore the families sent their best.
Maybe there is something wrong with this culture, based on thousands
of
years of religious traditions, gender roles and social domination?
YES, to much Roman ideology.
maybe, but i wouldn't want to fix it by denying people of strong
convictions
their freedom to press on.
Tain's can be dangerous to try to stand in front of.
hi
.
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| User: "Suzana" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
22 Sep 2006 01:40:49 PM |
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Roger Johansson wrote:
Suzana wrote:
Depression is disease of doubt.
Depressed person doubts his/her worth, doubts her/his capability which
often leads to helplessness, sadness and worthlessness.
You can turn that saying around, and say that:
Depression is a disease of other people's strong convictions.
You could, but it may be misleading.
Ultimately it is person who is depressed that sufferes. The decrease or
'doubt' in self value is symptom not a cause.....though it is kind of
self perpetuating.
The convictions in question may or may not be strong. The occurrence of
disease causes doubt of 'self-value' but conviction in those values can
be already weak.
If we live in a society where you need a strong ego, a lot of
determination, a lot of selfconfidence, the people who lack these
qualities will feel depressed or victimized.
It's in coping mechanism. Environment can cause depression is coping
mechanism is not good. If it is good, then even weak ego can 'swim out'
Which is most sick, our western culture, or the weak and untrained
people who have not been hardened and do not have a strong ego?
I know a nice girl who is socially strong. But she told me once that
for 5 years in her youth she was very angry all the time.
People who are socially strong have been charged up somehow, with
anger, strong convictions like love, or have been trained to be
constantly speeded.
In the scientific field and where you need to think clearly, doubts are
better than strong convictions. But in social life strong convictions
are better than doubts, in this culture.
Maybe there is something wrong with this culture, based on thousands of
years of religious traditions, gender roles and social domination?
First thing that comes to mind is: Eric Fromm. His critique of modern
society is brilliant _and_ applies even today.
--
Roger J.
.
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| User: "Roger Johansson" |
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| Title: Re: Depressed mindset |
22 Sep 2006 04:44:36 PM |
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Suzana wrote:
Depression is disease of doubt.
Depression is a disease of other people's strong convictions.
You could, but it may be misleading.
Maybe, but it could be a more fruitful and more correct way to see it
too.
Ultimately it is person who is depressed that sufferes.
In 1938 in Germany it was the jews, the socialists, the democrats who
suffered, the nazis were healty, felt good and got all the beautiful
girls. Does success really determine what is right and what is wrong?
In a school yard dominated by a bully gang the bullies are the
successful ones, and their victims are suffering, does that mean that
being a bully is right and being a victim is an illness?
If we live in a society where you need a strong ego, a lot of
determination, a lot of selfconfidence, the people who lack these
qualities will feel depressed or victimized.
Which is most sick, our western culture, or the weak and untrained
people who have not been hardened and do not have a strong ego?
Maybe there is something wrong with this culture, based on thousands of
years of religious traditions, gender roles and social domination?
First thing that comes to mind is: Eric Fromm. His critique of modern
society is brilliant _and_ applies even today.
Yes.
--
Roger J.
.
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