| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"the good Doctor" |
| Date: |
27 Aug 2005 03:10:01 PM |
| Object: |
Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
Our society can be very cruel for the aesthetically-challenged. The answer
is not only a need for self-esteem but the courage to tell detractors that
you ARE a beautiful person, no matter what they think. Remember; people who
matter don't judge, people who judge don't matter.
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/106/108218.htm
Three in four people who are preoccupied with an imagined or slight defect
in their appearance have thought about committing suicide. What's more,
about one in four have actually attempted to take their lives, a new study
shows.
The researchers surveyed people with body dysmorphic disorder, or BDD, a
serious illness that causes a person to be preoccupied with minor or
imagined flaws.
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| User: "Luna" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
28 Aug 2005 10:07:30 AM |
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"the good Doctor" <apartment3l57@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ZJednZ2dnZ0ecHXqnZ2dnUJVjd6dnZ2dRVn-052dnZ0@giganews.com...
Our society can be very cruel for the aesthetically-challenged. The answer
is not only a need for self-esteem but the courage to tell detractors that
you ARE a beautiful person, no matter what they think. Remember; people who
matter don't judge, people who judge don't matter.
You are clearly stupid. Everybody judges including you - as evidenced by your
'aesthetically challenged' blunder. Good looking people have it easier than
ugly people, and that's just reality. Then again, the Elephant Man has a pretty
good reputation.
What kind of doctor lives in apartment 3157?
Jean
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/106/108218.htm
Three in four people who are preoccupied with an imagined or slight defect
in their appearance have thought about committing suicide. What's more,
about one in four have actually attempted to take their lives, a new study
shows.
The researchers surveyed people with body dysmorphic disorder, or BDD, a
serious illness that causes a person to be preoccupied with minor or
imagined flaws.
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
29 Aug 2005 12:50:25 AM |
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Luna wrote:
"the good Doctor" <apartment3l57@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ZJednZ2dnZ0ecHXqnZ2dnUJVjd6dnZ2dRVn-052dnZ0@giganews.com...
Our society can be very cruel for the aesthetically-challenged. The answer
is not only a need for self-esteem but the courage to tell detractors that
you ARE a beautiful person, no matter what they think. Remember; people who
matter don't judge, people who judge don't matter.
You are clearly stupid. Everybody judges including you - as evidenced by your
'aesthetically challenged' blunder. Good looking people have it easier than
ugly people, and that's just reality. Then again, the Elephant Man has a pretty
good reputation.
What kind of doctor lives in apartment 3157?
Jean
It's the cliché's that made me mention Gestalt. Reality versus
idealism. He doesn't seem to have realized that Nirvana is a myth
yet it can still be imagined.
There are plenty of people who don't live their lives by the
rules of physical aesthetics. It's just that they are in the vast
minority.
I disagree that good people necessarily have it better than
ugly... but then again I don't believe anybody has it "better" if
they don't allow themselves to.
I got snubbed today because one of my tv clients saw me behind a
coffee cart. I think it is hilarious and have been smiling about
it ever since it happened.
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
29 Aug 2005 12:52:07 AM |
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GlennT wrote:
I disagree that good people necessarily have it better than ugly... but
Oops, Freudian slip? I meant good looking people.
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| User: "Luna" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
29 Aug 2005 07:55:18 AM |
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"GlennT" <askme@noname.com> wrote in message
news:foxQe.6773$iM2.674038@news.xtra.co.nz...
GlennT wrote:
I disagree that good people necessarily have it better than ugly... but
Oops, Freudian slip? I meant good looking people.
When I saw you'd posted right after as I was reading your previous one, I knew
why as soon as I'd read that. :)
Good looking people are generally more positively responded to. They have more
self confidence. I think life is better for good looking people
(generalization) - I'm not saying that's a good thing, it just is. I'd even go
so far as saying that extreme ugliness is a valid disability inasmuch as it
impedes the progress of one's life in society.
Jean
..
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| User: "jill" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
29 Aug 2005 06:07:19 PM |
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I absloutly agree luna,,,, There was this woman I use to see after
church on sunday, Piedmont ave in oakland is very trendy, little
antique stores and coffee shops.. she would stand there as everyone
went past. She had some sort of congenital birth defect , very rare
condition. Where when you are born half your face is grossly deformed.
It was as though someone had drawn a line down the middle of her face
and on one side the features were fine , the other side was like
melted wax. I swear even jesus himself would have been stopped by this
face, It was heartbreaking really. What she must have gone through,
I can't believe how cruel it was. jill
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| User: "jill" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
29 Aug 2005 06:10:25 PM |
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I don't go to church much anymore, I miss the music ,,,,,,
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| User: "%" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
29 Aug 2005 07:05:47 PM |
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"jill" <janeohara50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1125357025.845537.177470@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I don't go to church much anymore, I miss the music ,,,,,,
i can play , " I Shall Not Be Moved " on my banjo
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| User: "jill" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
30 Aug 2005 10:18:24 AM |
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music we both like, that sounds great. I once went to a black church
in Oakland with a friend. I heard a solo of the old rugged cross.
awesome . jill
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
30 Aug 2005 12:22:43 AM |
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Luna wrote:
"GlennT" <askme@noname.com> wrote in message
news:foxQe.6773$iM2.674038@news.xtra.co.nz...
GlennT wrote:
I disagree that good people necessarily have it better than ugly... but
Oops, Freudian slip? I meant good looking people.
When I saw you'd posted right after as I was reading your previous one, I knew
why as soon as I'd read that. :)
Good looking people are generally more positively responded to. They have more
self confidence. I think life is better for good looking people
(generalization) - I'm not saying that's a good thing, it just is. I'd even go
so far as saying that extreme ugliness is a valid disability inasmuch as it
impedes the progress of one's life in society.
Jean
.
I'm not going to reply to Janithor in this thread because I think
he is the sort of person I am referring to when I said about
people not *letting* themselves be better because he is convinced
he is ugly. He actually isn't, but he is convinced he is.
Instead I am going to reply to you and if he reads this and wants
to talk to me then that's fine but we have had this conversation
before and it wasn't very sensible.
I had the joy of thinking I was the ugliest thing alive for the
first fifteen years of my life. I know what that is like and I
never want to go there again. I'm not far from there now but I am
far enough away to function and that is good.
Of course good looking people have it easier and of course
ugliness, particularly in the extreme is a setback or, as
Cyberdroog said, a disability. I am obsessed with talking to or
befriending the ugly. Be it physical or emotional I am drawn to
them like a moth to a flame. That is a sort of obsession with me.
It is because I feel I belong with them. They are my true peers.
They are people who understand my feelings about being ugly and
they are the ones that have forgiven me for it.
I know I am not physically ugly. Yet I know I am completely
crippled by a lack of confidence in my place on this planet. I am
convinced that people hate me or despise me or even worse, don't
even acknowledge my existence, I don't even rate a blip on their
radar.
Depression is an ugliness of the worst kind. I know a lot of
strong physically ugly people. I enjoy being with them. I draw
strength from their resolve. I love them for being around. I love
the fact that they are ugly and have accepted that 'fact' and
moved on with their lives.
I see things very differently than most others and I am aware of
that but my opinion is just as valid as anybody else's. I have
also met some physically beautiful people who share my feelings
and their opinion is valid too.
In summary, what I am trying to say is that life is not the 2
dimensional black and white reality that is being discussed in
this thread. The fact is that many people are cut adrift from
mainstream thinking of beauty and ugliness and yet still react to
the currents of that perception reality because they are forced
to. It is complicated and it is real.
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| User: "Janithor" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
30 Aug 2005 12:41:17 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
GlennT wrote:
I'm not going to reply to Janithor in this thread because I think he is
the sort of person I am referring to when I said about people not
*letting* themselves be better because he is convinced he is ugly. He
actually isn't, but he is convinced he is.
This thread isn't about me, and I wasn't talking about me. Let's say
I'm a good looking guy. OK, fine. That doesn't change anything that I
said. Because this thread isn't about me, it's not about any one person
in particular. It's about a generalized concept.
Instead I am going to reply to you and if he reads this and wants to
talk to me then that's fine but we have had this conversation before and
it wasn't very sensible.
I had the joy of thinking I was the ugliest thing alive for the first
fifteen years of my life. I know what that is like and I never want to
go there again. I'm not far from there now but I am far enough away to
function and that is good.
Of course good looking people have it easier and of course ugliness,
particularly in the extreme is a setback or, as Cyberdroog said, a
disability.
Well, great, that's exactly the point. Done. Simple!
I am obsessed with talking to or befriending the ugly. Be it
physical or emotional I am drawn to them like a moth to a flame. That is
a sort of obsession with me.
It is because I feel I belong with them. They are my true peers. They
are people who understand my feelings about being ugly and they are the
ones that have forgiven me for it.
I know I am not physically ugly. Yet I know I am completely crippled by
a lack of confidence in my place on this planet. I am convinced that
people hate me or despise me or even worse, don't even acknowledge my
existence, I don't even rate a blip on their radar.
Depression is an ugliness of the worst kind. I know a lot of strong
physically ugly people. I enjoy being with them. I draw strength from
their resolve. I love them for being around. I love the fact that they
are ugly and have accepted that 'fact' and moved on with their lives.
I see things very differently than most others and I am aware of that
but my opinion is just as valid as anybody else's.
Yes, that is part of the game. Invalidate the other peron's
experiences, the other person's feelings. Obfuscate, deny, confuse.
Get the other person to start doubting themself, and then let them
defeat themself. I've seen people do this overtly, such as when I was
caught with an evil friend by his girlfriend, we were urinating outside
their apt after a night of drunken revelry. He turned it around and
started yelling at her. She was the one who ended up getting in
trouble! It was amazing.
You definitely have a unique way of talking about things, and for myself
personally, I have a hard time relating to a lot of what you say. Not a
slam, just saying we're very different people, which makes communication
difficult. I have no doubt about the genuineness of what you post here,
though, even if I don't understand or agree with everything you say.
I have also met some
physically beautiful people who share my feelings and their opinion is
valid too.
My best friend is a pretty boy who has women literally throw their phone
numbers at him. After he met my 85 yr old grandmother, she went ape and
started pointing to a picture of Tom Cruise and talking about how good
looking my friend was. But he gets it too. Because appearance is just
appearance. Has nothing to do with a person's character.
In summary, what I am trying to say is that life is not the 2
dimensional black and white reality that is being discussed in this
thread. The fact is that many people are cut adrift from mainstream
thinking of beauty and ugliness and yet still react to the currents of
that perception reality because they are forced to. It is complicated
and it is real.
I don't think anyone is saying it's black/white. Luna said very clearly
that she was speaking generally. "Generally" by definition means that
there are exceptions, ie. not black/white.
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
30 Aug 2005 05:12:38 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Janithor wrote:
GlennT wrote:
I'm not going to reply to Janithor in this thread because I think he
is the sort of person I am referring to when I said about people not
*letting* themselves be better because he is convinced he is ugly. He
actually isn't, but he is convinced he is.
This thread isn't about me, and I wasn't talking about me. Let's say
I'm a good looking guy. OK, fine. That doesn't change anything that I
said. Because this thread isn't about me, it's not about any one person
in particular. It's about a generalized concept.
It wasn't about you till you came busting in with your emotions
in high gear. It was about a generalized concept till you you
personalized it with. "Finally. Geez louise."
Instead I am going to reply to you and if he reads this and wants to
talk to me then that's fine but we have had this conversation before
and it wasn't very sensible.
I had the joy of thinking I was the ugliest thing alive for the first
fifteen years of my life. I know what that is like and I never want to
go there again. I'm not far from there now but I am far enough away to
function and that is good.
Of course good looking people have it easier and of course ugliness,
particularly in the extreme is a setback or, as Cyberdroog said, a
disability.
Well, great, that's exactly the point. Done. Simple!
Ya think so? I don't. That is the cliché not the reality. We are
what we are not what other people say we are. Not what other
people think we are.
You are one ugly mofo because you think you are.
I am obsessed with talking to or befriending the ugly. Be it physical
or emotional I am drawn to them like a moth to a flame. That is a sort
of obsession with me.
It is because I feel I belong with them. They are my true peers. They
are people who understand my feelings about being ugly and they are
the ones that have forgiven me for it.
I know I am not physically ugly. Yet I know I am completely crippled
by a lack of confidence in my place on this planet. I am convinced
that people hate me or despise me or even worse, don't even
acknowledge my existence, I don't even rate a blip on their radar.
Depression is an ugliness of the worst kind. I know a lot of strong
physically ugly people. I enjoy being with them. I draw strength from
their resolve. I love them for being around. I love the fact that they
are ugly and have accepted that 'fact' and moved on with their lives.
I see things very differently than most others and I am aware of that
but my opinion is just as valid as anybody else's.
Yes, that is part of the game. Invalidate the other peron's
experiences, the other person's feelings. Obfuscate, deny, confuse. Get
the other person to start doubting themself, and then let them defeat
themself. I've seen people do this overtly, such as when I was caught
with an evil friend by his girlfriend, we were urinating outside their
apt after a night of drunken revelry. He turned it around and started
yelling at her. She was the one who ended up getting in trouble! It
was amazing.
Power is a perception. Just like looks are.
You definitely have a unique way of talking about things, and for myself
personally, I have a hard time relating to a lot of what you say. Not a
slam, just saying we're very different people, which makes communication
difficult. I have no doubt about the genuineness of what you post here,
though, even if I don't understand or agree with everything you say.
No slam taken. I have no doubt about your sincerity either but
that has nothing to do with the discussion. You confuse the issue
because you yourself are confused about the issue. I just happen
to be crystal clear about this particular one so as Dave would
say, I win.
I have also met some physically beautiful people who share my feelings
and their opinion is valid too.
My best friend is a pretty boy who has women literally throw their phone
numbers at him. After he met my 85 yr old grandmother, she went ape and
started pointing to a picture of Tom Cruise and talking about how good
looking my friend was. But he gets it too. Because appearance is just
appearance. Has nothing to do with a person's character.
You can talk the talk but can't walk the walk. What if you were
that pretty boy? What then?
In summary, what I am trying to say is that life is not the 2
dimensional black and white reality that is being discussed in this
thread. The fact is that many people are cut adrift from mainstream
thinking of beauty and ugliness and yet still react to the currents of
that perception reality because they are forced to. It is complicated
and it is real.
I don't think anyone is saying it's black/white. Luna said very clearly
that she was speaking generally. "Generally" by definition means that
there are exceptions, ie. not black/white.
Generally *is* black/white. It's when it gets personal that the
different grays kick in. You have a pet obsession and I have a
pet obsession. The difference is that I am aware of that fact.
Not happy, but definitely aware.
.
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| User: "Janithor" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
30 Aug 2005 06:10:15 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
GlennT wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
=20
Janithor wrote:
=20
GlennT wrote:
I'm not going to reply to Janithor in this thread because I think he =
is the sort of person I am referring to when I said about people not =
*letting* themselves be better because he is convinced he is ugly. He=
=20
actually isn't, but he is convinced he is.
This thread isn't about me, and I wasn't talking about me. Let's say =
I'm a good looking guy. OK, fine. That doesn't change anything that =
I said. Because this thread isn't about me, it's not about any one=20
person in particular. It's about a generalized concept.
=20
=20
It wasn't about you till you came busting in with your emotions in high=
=20
gear. It was about a generalized concept till you you personalized it=20
with. "Finally. Geez louise."
Wrong. I wasn't talking about me, I was talking about how others=20
approach this topic.
The part about me was incidental to the point. Take it out, fine. That =
doesn't take away that fact that some people have a lot of trouble=20
acknowledging that looks count and influence how people react to other=20
people. That's it.
Well, great, that's exactly the point. Done. Simple!
=20
=20
Ya think so? I don't.=20
Yes, that was my point. Yes, it's a simple point.
That is the clich=E9 not the reality. We are what we=20
are not what other people say we are. Not what other people think we ar=
e.
OK, you disagree with the point. Fine. But the point was still what it =
is. And it's not a very complex one at that.
You are one ugly mofo because you think you are.
I'm confused. Which is it - I'm an ugly mofo because you say I am, or=20
I'm not, because you say I am?
No slam taken. I have no doubt about your sincerity either but that has=
=20
nothing to do with the discussion. You confuse the issue because you=20
yourself are confused about the issue. I just happen to be crystal clea=
r=20
about this particular one so as Dave would say, I win.
I have no idea what you're talking about here, can you clarify?
My best friend is a pretty boy who has women literally throw their=20
phone numbers at him. After he met my 85 yr old grandmother, she went=
=20
ape and started pointing to a picture of Tom Cruise and talking about =
how good looking my friend was. But he gets it too. Because=20
appearance is just appearance. Has nothing to do with a person's=20
character.
=20
You can talk the talk but can't walk the walk. What if you were that=20
pretty boy? What then?
Again, I don't get what you're talking about. What's the question? If=20
I were the pretty, what what then? I don't get it.
Generally *is* black/white.
Well, we disagree on this. Don't know what to say. To me, black/white=20
means you take a single example and conclude that all other instances=20
will match that example. Generally to me means "on average". Which by=20
definition acknowledges that not everything fits the average. Average=20
is a mathematical construct that sums up the individuals, divides by the =
number of individuals, and you get an average. Black/white thinking=20
would be to take that average number and think that it applies to all=20
the individuals in question, rather than seeing it for the mathematical=20
construction that it is.
It's when it gets personal that the=20
different grays kick in. You have a pet obsession and I have a pet=20
obsession. The difference is that I am aware of that fact. Not happy,=20
but definitely aware.
I don't know what you mean here.
.
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
30 Aug 2005 11:56:02 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Janithor wrote:
Generally *is* black/white.
Well, we disagree on this. Don't know what to say. To me, black/white
means you take a single example and conclude that all other instances
will match that example. Generally to me means "on average". Which by
definition acknowledges that not everything fits the average. Average
is a mathematical construct that sums up the individuals, divides by the
number of individuals, and you get an average. Black/white thinking
would be to take that average number and think that it applies to all
the individuals in question, rather than seeing it for the mathematical
construction that it is.
A discussion that is described as general is avoiding nuance of
the personal and the all important emotional values that
highlight those nuances. It has nothing to do with "on average"
which is mathematical and therefore about numbers not perception.
It's when it gets personal that the different grays kick in. You have
a pet obsession and I have a pet obsession. The difference is that I
am aware of that fact. Not happy, but definitely aware.
I don't know what you mean here.
Well let's keep it as simple as possible.
You were just clarifying Jean's original point *or* you read
something that agrees with an obsession and jumped in to say so.
One or the other. You say the former, fine, who am I to tell you
what you think? You don't want this to be personal but rather
part of a 'general' discussion? Okay, I can respect that wish and
can cope with being dictated to on how I may address the subject.
However it still comes back to the fact that looks and self
perception are not defining characteristics unless we ourselves
make them so. It is a crime committed against oneself rather than
one perpetrated by the media or popular opinion.
It is once again people bleating that the world is cruel to them
for some reason and taking no responsibility for that situation.
It is victim mentality and the only place to deal with it is from
within.
The yin and yang of existence seems to be lost on most people.
The balance of nature etc. If you are rich you have problems if
you are poor you have problems. If you have good looks or look
like a troll the responsibility to self remains the same. I have
met plenty of attractive people who have huge problems with their
looks. I have met plenty of physically ugly people who have no
problem with it whatsoever. I don't try and say that looks don't
matter because they obviously do. What I say is that it is one of
the few areas in life that can be readily, if not easily, fixed
with a change in self perception.
.
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| User: "%" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
31 Aug 2005 12:09:51 AM |
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"GlennT" <askme@noname.com> wrote in message
news:JLaRe.7363$iM2.739885@news.xtra.co.nz...
x-no-archive: yes
Janithor wrote:
Generally *is* black/white.
Well, we disagree on this. Don't know what to say. To me, black/white
means you take a single example and conclude that all other instances
will match that example. Generally to me means "on average". Which by
definition acknowledges that not everything fits the average. Average
is a mathematical construct that sums up the individuals, divides by the
number of individuals, and you get an average. Black/white thinking
would be to take that average number and think that it applies to all
the individuals in question, rather than seeing it for the mathematical
construction that it is.
A discussion that is described as general is avoiding nuance of
the personal and the all important emotional values that
highlight those nuances. It has nothing to do with "on average"
which is mathematical and therefore about numbers not perception.
It's when it gets personal that the different grays kick in. You have
a pet obsession and I have a pet obsession. The difference is that I
am aware of that fact. Not happy, but definitely aware.
I don't know what you mean here.
Well let's keep it as simple as possible.
You were just clarifying Jean's original point *or* you read
something that agrees with an obsession and jumped in to say so.
One or the other. You say the former, fine, who am I to tell you
what you think? You don't want this to be personal but rather
part of a 'general' discussion? Okay, I can respect that wish and
can cope with being dictated to on how I may address the subject.
However it still comes back to the fact that looks and self
perception are not defining characteristics unless we ourselves
make them so. It is a crime committed against oneself rather than
one perpetrated by the media or popular opinion.
It is once again people bleating that the world is cruel to them
for some reason and taking no responsibility for that situation.
It is victim mentality and the only place to deal with it is from
within.
The yin and yang of existence seems to be lost on most people.
The balance of nature etc. If you are rich you have problems if
you are poor you have problems. If you have good looks or look
like a troll the responsibility to self remains the same. I have
met plenty of attractive people who have huge problems with their
looks. I have met plenty of physically ugly people who have no
problem with it whatsoever. I don't try and say that looks don't
matter because they obviously do. What I say is that it is one of
the few areas in life that can be readily, if not easily, fixed
with a change in self perception.
sorry , too too much for my add to allow me to read
.
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
31 Aug 2005 01:28:45 AM |
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% wrote:
"GlennT" <askme@noname.com> wrote in message
news:JLaRe.7363$iM2.739885@news.xtra.co.nz...
x-no-archive: yes
Janithor wrote:
Generally *is* black/white.
Well, we disagree on this. Don't know what to say. To me, black/white
means you take a single example and conclude that all other instances
will match that example. Generally to me means "on average". Which by
definition acknowledges that not everything fits the average. Average
is a mathematical construct that sums up the individuals, divides by the
number of individuals, and you get an average. Black/white thinking
would be to take that average number and think that it applies to all
the individuals in question, rather than seeing it for the mathematical
construction that it is.
A discussion that is described as general is avoiding nuance of
the personal and the all important emotional values that
highlight those nuances. It has nothing to do with "on average"
which is mathematical and therefore about numbers not perception.
It's when it gets personal that the different grays kick in. You have
a pet obsession and I have a pet obsession. The difference is that I
am aware of that fact. Not happy, but definitely aware.
I don't know what you mean here.
Well let's keep it as simple as possible.
You were just clarifying Jean's original point *or* you read
something that agrees with an obsession and jumped in to say so.
One or the other. You say the former, fine, who am I to tell you
what you think? You don't want this to be personal but rather
part of a 'general' discussion? Okay, I can respect that wish and
can cope with being dictated to on how I may address the subject.
However it still comes back to the fact that looks and self
perception are not defining characteristics unless we ourselves
make them so. It is a crime committed against oneself rather than
one perpetrated by the media or popular opinion.
It is once again people bleating that the world is cruel to them
for some reason and taking no responsibility for that situation.
It is victim mentality and the only place to deal with it is from
within.
The yin and yang of existence seems to be lost on most people.
The balance of nature etc. If you are rich you have problems if
you are poor you have problems. If you have good looks or look
like a troll the responsibility to self remains the same. I have
met plenty of attractive people who have huge problems with their
looks. I have met plenty of physically ugly people who have no
problem with it whatsoever. I don't try and say that looks don't
matter because they obviously do. What I say is that it is one of
the few areas in life that can be readily, if not easily, fixed
with a change in self perception.
sorry , too too much for my add to allow me to read
You're excused!
BTW I had this long discussion about fishing today. It was with a
Canadian. He convinced me that it is better there. You think that
is so? Or at least, do you fish and if so, how does it go?
.
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| User: "%" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
31 Aug 2005 01:39:49 AM |
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"GlennT" <askme@noname.com> wrote in message
news:E6cRe.7377$iM2.740749@news.xtra.co.nz...
% wrote:
"GlennT" <askme@noname.com> wrote in message
news:JLaRe.7363$iM2.739885@news.xtra.co.nz...
x-no-archive: yes
Janithor wrote:
Generally *is* black/white.
Well, we disagree on this. Don't know what to say. To me, black/white
means you take a single example and conclude that all other instances
will match that example. Generally to me means "on average". Which by
definition acknowledges that not everything fits the average. Average
is a mathematical construct that sums up the individuals, divides by
the
number of individuals, and you get an average. Black/white thinking
would be to take that average number and think that it applies to all
the individuals in question, rather than seeing it for the mathematical
construction that it is.
A discussion that is described as general is avoiding nuance of
the personal and the all important emotional values that
highlight those nuances. It has nothing to do with "on average"
which is mathematical and therefore about numbers not perception.
It's when it gets personal that the different grays kick in. You have
a pet obsession and I have a pet obsession. The difference is that I
am aware of that fact. Not happy, but definitely aware.
I don't know what you mean here.
Well let's keep it as simple as possible.
You were just clarifying Jean's original point *or* you read
something that agrees with an obsession and jumped in to say so.
One or the other. You say the former, fine, who am I to tell you
what you think? You don't want this to be personal but rather
part of a 'general' discussion? Okay, I can respect that wish and
can cope with being dictated to on how I may address the subject.
However it still comes back to the fact that looks and self
perception are not defining characteristics unless we ourselves
make them so. It is a crime committed against oneself rather than
one perpetrated by the media or popular opinion.
It is once again people bleating that the world is cruel to them
for some reason and taking no responsibility for that situation.
It is victim mentality and the only place to deal with it is from
within.
The yin and yang of existence seems to be lost on most people.
The balance of nature etc. If you are rich you have problems if
you are poor you have problems. If you have good looks or look
like a troll the responsibility to self remains the same. I have
met plenty of attractive people who have huge problems with their
looks. I have met plenty of physically ugly people who have no
problem with it whatsoever. I don't try and say that looks don't
matter because they obviously do. What I say is that it is one of
the few areas in life that can be readily, if not easily, fixed
with a change in self perception.
sorry , too too much for my add to allow me to read
You're excused!
BTW I had this long discussion about fishing today. It was with a
Canadian. He convinced me that it is better there. You think that
is so? Or at least, do you fish and if so, how does it go?
i've never fished any place else , i'm not a good advisory
i do pretty good when i do go i guess , but again ,
i have nothing too compare it to , maybe it sucks
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| User: "Janithor" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
01 Sep 2005 02:53:39 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
GlennT wrote:
A discussion that is described as general is avoiding nuance of the
personal and the all important emotional values that highlight those
nuances.
No it's not. That's your assumption. A general statement is just what
it is - a general statement. What the heck do you think statistics is
all about? Not everyone who smokes gets lung cancer - so, what, it's OK
to smoke?
You're assuming the other person is not seeing or is avoiding the
nuances. Just because you assume they don't know about the nuances
doesn't mean that this is so. It may be that they are in fact making a
simple generalized statement at that point in time, such as, "smoking is
bad for you".
It's when it gets personal that the different grays kick in. You have
a pet obsession and I have a pet obsession. The difference is that I
am aware of that fact. Not happy, but definitely aware.
I don't know what you mean here.
Well let's keep it as simple as possible.
You were just clarifying Jean's original point *or* you read something
that agrees with an obsession and jumped in to say so. One or the other.
That's sounds rather black/white. Could there be some more, oh what's
the word...nuance...to this situation than the 2 stark choices you are
offering?
You say the former, fine, who am I to tell you what you think? You don't
want this to be personal but rather part of a 'general' discussion?
Okay, I can respect that wish and can cope with being dictated to on how
I may address the subject.
Please Glenn, nobody is dictating anything. You're free to say whatever
you like; so am I.
However it still comes back to the fact that looks and self perception
are not defining characteristics unless we ourselves make them so. It is
a crime committed against oneself rather than one perpetrated by the
media or popular opinion.
It is once again people bleating that the world is cruel to them for
some reason and taking no responsibility for that situation. It is
victim mentality and the only place to deal with it is from within.
ah, I figured this is where you were going. Gee, I'm sorry if I get
upset when people dump on other people unjustly. I'm weird like that.
So, when I saw my friend in 5th grade getting the crap beat out of her
by another boy who was yelling at her "You're fat, you're fat" as he was
punching her, she should have just stuck her chin out and started
whistling "put on a happy face"?
The yin and yang of existence seems to be lost on most people. The
balance of nature etc. If you are rich you have problems if you are poor
you have problems. If you have good looks or look like a troll the
responsibility to self remains the same. I have met plenty of attractive
people who have huge problems with their looks. I have met plenty of
physically ugly people who have no problem with it whatsoever. I don't
try and say that looks don't matter because they obviously do. What I
say is that it is one of the few areas in life that can be readily, if
not easily, fixed with a change in self perception.
So what are you talking about - you say looks matter, but then you say
it can be easily changed through a change in self-perception. So, which
is it?
And just what is it that I'm doing that's playing "poor me I'm a
victim"? You don't see me defending the misogynistic schmucks like No
One and the other boys from alt.support.shyness. You don't see me
griping that my income is low because I'm short. No, I made that
decision long ago - I was going to take what assets I have and do the
most with it. I have a lot going for me, which is why I remain
fundamentally optimistic about my life, inspite of my many setbacks. No
victim here, Glenn. But if you are going tell me I'm out of line by
feeling upset when someone starts openly mocking me out of the blue
without any reason whatsoever, well, let's just say I disagree. I think
it's pretty fucking normal to feel like crap when someone treats you
like crap. Read that last statement carefully.
.
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| User: "Charlie Pride" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
01 Sep 2005 04:06:42 AM |
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"Janithor" <> And just what is it that I'm doing that's playing "poor me I'm
a
victim"? >>
You don't admit that in fact you are ugly, it is not imagined. Get over it.
Grow up.
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
01 Sep 2005 06:41:00 AM |
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Charlie Pride wrote:
"Janithor" <> And just what is it that I'm doing that's playing "poor me I'm
a
victim"? >>
You don't admit that in fact you are ugly, it is not imagined. Get over it.
Grow up.
Crazy thing is that he isn't ugly at all, I've seen a photo.
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
01 Sep 2005 04:36:38 PM |
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On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 23:41:00 +1200, GlennT <askme@noname.com> wrote:
Crazy thing is that he isn't ugly at all, I've seen a photo.
It isn't even crazy. Well, maybe crazy, but not uncommon. All in all I
think I have met far more average looking people who thought they were
hideously ugly, than I have met ugly people who thought they were ugly.
Depressed people often feel ugly, and no one can tell them any different.
Objective measures just aren't possible, and wouldn't be accepted if they
were.
I think most people are aware of how many beautiful celebrities actually
feel they are ugly. Many feel they are closet trolls just waiting to be
found out.
And it should go without saying that even people who are not ugly, by
objective standards, will still report that they are treated by society as
if they were ugly.
--
LAWYER, n. One skilled in circumvention of the law.
- Ambrose Bierce
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
01 Sep 2005 04:28:49 PM |
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On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 05:06:42 -0400, "Charlie Pride" <charliepride73@aol.com>
wrote:
"Janithor" <> And just what is it that I'm doing that's playing "poor me I'm
a
victim"? >>
You don't admit that in fact you are ugly, it is not imagined. Get over it.
Grow up.
Actually Janithor says he is ugly quite a bit.
I think we need a referee here. Okay, Wombn, is Janithor ugly?
--
Why isn't the word "gullible" in the dictionary?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
01 Sep 2005 07:36:01 PM |
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On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 21:28:49 GMT, CyberDroog
<CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
<(((*> On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 05:06:42 -0400, "Charlie Pride" <charliepride73@aol.com>
<(((*> wrote:
<(((*>
<(((*> >"Janithor" <> And just what is it that I'm doing that's playing "poor me I'm
<(((*> >a
<(((*> >> victim"? >>
<(((*> >
<(((*> >You don't admit that in fact you are ugly, it is not imagined. Get over it.
<(((*> >Grow up.
<(((*>
<(((*> Actually Janithor says he is ugly quite a bit.
<(((*>
<(((*> I think we need a referee here. Okay, Wombn, is Janithor ugly?
IMHO wombn, as his wife, could be considered a bit biased.
However ***I*** had the privilege of meeting Janithor & wombn IRL
a few years ago. As an unbiased (well, okay, I'm Canadian and I
think GW Bush is a disaster, so I'm really not THAT unbiased)
observer, I can say this:
I thought Janithor was very attractive. He has lovely blue eyes
and a sweet smile. He's also got a very inviting (at least to me)
personality.
I think most of the women here, if they had the opportunity to
meet him, would agree with me that Janithor is the opposite of
ugly.
Tara J. Ballance
Montreal, Canada
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
01 Sep 2005 11:51:28 PM |
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waitingforgodot@samuel.beckett wrote:
On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 21:28:49 GMT, CyberDroog
<CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
<(((*> On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 05:06:42 -0400, "Charlie Pride" <charliepride73@aol.com>
<(((*> wrote:
<(((*>
<(((*> >"Janithor" <> And just what is it that I'm doing that's playing "poor me I'm
<(((*> >a
<(((*> >> victim"? >>
<(((*> >
<(((*> >You don't admit that in fact you are ugly, it is not imagined. Get over it.
<(((*> >Grow up.
<(((*>
<(((*> Actually Janithor says he is ugly quite a bit.
<(((*>
<(((*> I think we need a referee here. Okay, Wombn, is Janithor ugly?
IMHO wombn, as his wife, could be considered a bit biased.
However ***I*** had the privilege of meeting Janithor & wombn IRL
a few years ago. As an unbiased (well, okay, I'm Canadian and I
think GW Bush is a disaster, so I'm really not THAT unbiased)
observer, I can say this:
I thought Janithor was very attractive. He has lovely blue eyes
and a sweet smile. He's also got a very inviting (at least to me)
personality.
I think most of the women here, if they had the opportunity to
meet him, would agree with me that Janithor is the opposite of
ugly.
Tara J. Ballance
Montreal, Canada
His looks would be typical of a lot of the Northern Europeans I
have met. But I haven't met him in real life.
I feel a bit dumb getting into a scrap with him over this. I
*knew* this was going to happen. Oh well...
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
02 Sep 2005 03:06:17 AM |
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On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:51:28 +1200, GlennT <askme@noname.com> wrote:
I feel a bit dumb getting into a scrap with him over this. I
*knew* this was going to happen. Oh well...
the thing is, all of us are more likely to advocate for positions we
have personal experience (and struggles) with.
It's not necessarily *always* the case that we have a ton of
unresolved issues. And I think extremely few people can ever
completely work through the leftover baggage. Nevertheless, that
doesn't mean that whenever we fight for a position it's *always*
because of unresolved stuff. It can even vary from day to day based
on daily experiences or stressed-out-ness or whatever.
I will probably always put far more heat into arguments about "not
allowing everyone to cram their particular brand of sexuality down my
throat" than I would about topics of being short (I'm 5'8"--which I
think is ~2" over the average for women in the US). But that doesn't
mean my arguments are always wrapped up in my leftover neuroses. See
what I mean?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Crap is the next great evolution after art" - Cyberdroog
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
02 Sep 2005 05:13:17 AM |
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wombn wrote:
On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:51:28 +1200, GlennT <askme@noname.com> wrote:
I feel a bit dumb getting into a scrap with him over this. I
*knew* this was going to happen. Oh well...
the thing is, all of us are more likely to advocate for positions we
have personal experience (and struggles) with.
Yep. And when certain members of this group refuse to listen to
others people get frustrated and sometimes even downright nasty.
It's not necessarily *always* the case that we have a ton of
unresolved issues. And I think extremely few people can ever
completely work through the leftover baggage. Nevertheless, that
doesn't mean that whenever we fight for a position it's *always*
because of unresolved stuff. It can even vary from day to day based
on daily experiences or stressed-out-ness or whatever.
True. Yet the feelings remain the same. I mean, if I'm grumpy I
may say something whereas when I am not I may let it slide. I
still haven't decided which is better because the truth is still
the same, expressed or not.
I will probably always put far more heat into arguments about "not
allowing everyone to cram their particular brand of sexuality down my
throat" than I would about topics of being short (I'm 5'8"--which I
think is ~2" over the average for women in the US). But that doesn't
mean my arguments are always wrapped up in my leftover neuroses. See
what I mean?
I'm not sure I follow the logic here. I mean I see you are making
a comparison but I'm not quite sure what the comparison is between.
If I say Thor is not ugly and get annoyed with him when he
insists he is... who is being neurotic?
.
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
02 Sep 2005 06:31:33 AM |
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GlennT wrote:
wombn wrote:
On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:51:28 +1200, GlennT <askme@noname.com> wrote:
I feel a bit dumb getting into a scrap with him over this. I *knew*
this was going to happen. Oh well...
the thing is, all of us are more likely to advocate for positions we
have personal experience (and struggles) with.
Yep. And when certain members of this group refuse to listen to others
people get frustrated and sometimes even downright nasty.
It's not necessarily *always* the case that we have a ton of
unresolved issues. And I think extremely few people can ever
completely work through the leftover baggage. Nevertheless, that
doesn't mean that whenever we fight for a position it's *always*
because of unresolved stuff. It can even vary from day to day based
on daily experiences or stressed-out-ness or whatever.
True. Yet the feelings remain the same. I mean, if I'm grumpy I may say
something whereas when I am not I may let it slide. I still haven't
decided which is better because the truth is still the same, expressed
or not.
I will probably always put far more heat into arguments about "not
allowing everyone to cram their particular brand of sexuality down my
throat" than I would about topics of being short (I'm 5'8"--which I
think is ~2" over the average for women in the US). But that doesn't
mean my arguments are always wrapped up in my leftover neuroses. See
what I mean?
I'm not sure I follow the logic here. I mean I see you are making a
comparison but I'm not quite sure what the comparison is between.
If I say Thor is not ugly and get annoyed with him when he insists he
is... who is being neurotic?
p.s. I think, after thinking about this for a while I may have
read your post too quickly.
I'll try to explain. As I said somewhere earlier I too have some
obsessions or at least one that has been with me for a long time.
Every time I read Thor's comments about his looks it was like a
red flag to a bull. When he talks about people condemning him
because of his features when there doesn't appear to be any basis
in fact I have had to bite my tongue to not get angry, or at
least to not express that anger.
It is hard to explain this reaction so I know that part of it is
steeped in my own misprogramming. I want to stress here, only
part of it is illogical. Part of it is very logical and that part
I do understand.
I think we all have a responsibility to question ourselves and to
apply that questioning to a course of action. Depression, IMO is
a real disease as is PTSD and all the other things that bring us
together in ASD.
Looks are not a disease (I mean looks that are not a deformity at
least). Looks are a superficial fact of life. Although society
and the media play the looks card it is easily ignored. It is
nothing unless we make it so. If Thor wanted to talk about his
obsession he would find nobody more sympathetic than I. But he
doesn't and that frustrates the hell out of me. Maybe it
shouldn't, but it does. All he wants to do is to keep saying he
is ugly and that people pick on him for it. That to me is giving
up without a fight and nobody should do that.
.
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
02 Sep 2005 01:32:21 PM |
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On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:31:33 +1200, GlennT <askme@noname.com> wrote:
That to me is giving
up without a fight and nobody should do that.
in which case, it's appropriate to be angy on his behalf, which is how
I've been interpreting your annoyance here.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Crap is the next great evolution after art" - Cyberdroog
.
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
03 Sep 2005 08:10:38 AM |
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wombn wrote:
On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:31:33 +1200, GlennT <askme@noname.com> wrote:
That to me is giving
up without a fight and nobody should do that.
in which case, it's appropriate to be angy on his behalf, which is how
I've been interpreting your annoyance here.
Thanks, I appreciate you saying that. FWIW I only get upset when
I think people are worth the effort.
.
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| User: "AlvinTChase" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
03 Sep 2005 06:47:46 PM |
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GlennT wrote:
wombn wrote:
On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:31:33 +1200, GlennT <askme@noname.com> wrote:
That to me is giving
up without a fight and nobody should do that.
in which case, it's appropriate to be angy on his behalf, which is how
I've been interpreting your annoyance here.
Thanks, I appreciate you saying that. FWIW I only get upset when
I think people are worth the effort.
I've noticed that I've changed my views in regard to that
topic... years ago I was talking on ASD about how everyone should
always say warm,polite,sugary things to people at all times... but now
I realize that sometimes tough words can be supportive, it can help a
person... I don't mean when people get into vicious fights and insult
each other just to wound the peron, that doesn't help, but sometimes
being very blunt is helpful... I know I've found it helpful, as long as
if it's well intentioned...
-"Alvintchase"
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Disorder of Imagined Ugliness Has High Toll |
03 Sep 2005 07:15:14 PM |
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AlvinTChase wrote:
GlennT wrote:
wombn wrote:
On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:31:33 +1200, GlennT <askme@noname.com> wrote:
That to me is giving
up without a fight and nobody should do that.
in which case, it's appropriate to be angy on his behalf, which is how
I've been interpreting your annoyance here.
Thanks, I appreciate you saying that. FWIW I only get upset when
I think people are worth the effort.
I've noticed that I've changed my views in regard to that
topic... years ago I was talking on ASD about how everyone should
always say warm,polite,sugary things to people at all times... but now
I realize that sometimes tough words can be supportive, it can help a
person... I don't mean when people get into vicious fights and insult
each other just to wound the peron, that doesn't help, but sometimes
being very blunt is helpful... I know I've found it helpful, as long as
if it's well intentioned...
-"Alvintchase"
IRL I am pretty good at being sensitive in my suggestions to
people. Online I am pretty hopeless at it. Without the face to
face body language reading and the ability to intone warmth and
sympathy, I get frustrated easily.
I don't think anything I say to Thor is going to change anything.
I certainly don't expect it too. I identify with his stubbornness
on some issues as I am very similar.
Therefore my bluntness is more about me than about him. My
irritation and even my anger is largely redirected issues of my
own on this subject. I have at least tried to be honest about
that which is an improvement on the way I used to handle my
discussions online. His anger towards me was like water off a
ducks back which is also an improvement.
Therefore I agree with you, I have personally found other
people's bluntness towards me (Luna in particular) very useful.
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