| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"Nina" |
| Date: |
12 Jun 2004 10:42:55 AM |
| Object: |
divorce and the past and the future |
After probably eight or so years of working up to it, I finally talked
to my husband about getting a divorce, a few days ago. It's kind of
funny... I've spent so long with such a horror of this, for so many
reasons, and in the end, it was more anticlimactic and sad than
anything else. And a great relief, almost a happy thing. I feel like
my life, the future, is mine again. I feel like I can talk to people
again.
While my marriage was never what you'd call terrific... or only,
maybe, for short times when the level of fantasy was highest... it
really fell apart after my son was born. I have always felt just
loathsome and horrible for saying this, but the fact of the matter is
that the amount of attention and interaction that I received from him
prior to that time was pretty minimal, but just barely enough. But
when our child was born, all attention became focused on him. And,
what was in some ways worse... the things that I'd had a hard time
with for years... why don't you call when you'll be late, so I don't
worry? Why don't you remember birthdays and holidays? This kind of
thing... all these things that he could not or would not do for me, he
would do for my son. And, while it's good that these things happened,
it said to me, you are not important. You do not matter enough. You
never did.
I don't begrudge my son a terrific... in some ways... father. And
given a choice between a good father for him and a good husband for
myself, it's no contest. But it's not a choice that you should have
to make.
He was divorced when I met him, more than 20 years ago, and he had a
then about 4 year old child. And when we were telling our stories,
back then, he told me one that I forgot, because at the time, it had
no meaning to me. I forgot about it completely until he said
something about it on Wednesday. His first wife said to him, when
they were divorcing (in a bitter and horrible way), that he made her
jealous of her daughter, and that she hated him for that.
When he told me that to begin with, I didn't think much of it. I
loved him, and you know how it is... you write it off to the horrible
ex-wife, etc. But I should have really heard that. I should have
listened. Not that it would have made any difference at the time, or
to most of what happened after... but I've hated myself. I've thought
that there was something wrong with me. I've thought that I was so...
I don't know, needy (I loathe that word), that I couldn't deal with
the split in attention.
But it wasn't a split, and I wasn't wrong, and I wasn't pathetic. I
don't know if knowing that, of having that validation, would have
changed anything about the way that I dealt with it... probably not,
because I was too sick and too depressed and too many other things to
use that knowledge properly, and when you get right down to it, what's
there to do? But I would have hated myself a lot less, I think.
It's hard to learn to listen to things right, to hear what's
important, to hear what's real (when we screen through our own history
and interpretations).
Nina
.
|
|
| User: "bunny" |
|
| Title: Re: divorce and the past and the future |
12 Jun 2004 01:06:42 PM |
|
|
"Nina" <ninaNOSPAM@economika.net> wrote
After probably eight or so years of working up to it, I finally talked
to my husband about getting a divorce, a few days ago. It's kind of
funny... I've spent so long with such a horror of this, for so many
reasons, and in the end, it was more anticlimactic and sad than
anything else. And a great relief, almost a happy thing. I feel like
my life, the future, is mine again. I feel like I can talk to people
again.
This is incredible, Nina. My god. You did it! Wow! You champion! I
mean, it's not like there was a lot of doubt about it happening when the
time came, but this is one of those things that is just so, so hard to do.
This is just HUGE! You truly are going to have your life back again. This
is just -- tremendous. I wish I could give you the biggest hug and also
pretend I had something in my eye so you wouldn't know the real reason my
eyes are wet.
Relief and happiness, yes. And to be able to choose to talk to people with
windows open or shutters closed, because it's what *you* feel like doing,
not what you need to do because the circumstances force it on you.
I'm so happy for you.
But it wasn't a split, and I wasn't wrong, and I wasn't pathetic. I
don't know if knowing that, of having that validation, would have
changed anything about the way that I dealt with it... probably not,
because I was too sick and too depressed and too many other things to
use that knowledge properly, and when you get right down to it, what's
there to do? But I would have hated myself a lot less, I think.
Yeah. You never deserved to feel that way. The way you felt was natural
and normal. He created a destructive situation. You got the burn, and you
didn't deserve it. You weren't wrong, you weren't pathetic at all. Those
days of self-loathing for being a normal woman are over now, baybee! Yay
for you!
It's hard to learn to listen to things right, to hear what's
important, to hear what's real (when we screen through our own history
and interpretations).
That is so true. It's especially true when we want to believe the best of
someone. Oprah said that one of the most valuable things that Maya Angelou
taught her was "when someone tells you who they are, believe them." She
said, believe them the first time. If you don't, they'll tell you a second
time, and a third time, and keep telling you till you finally believe them,
and then you had to go through all those extra times. She was talking about
just exactly the kind of thing you're saying.
It's not exactly controversial to say you're a charter member of the Wise
Words From Wise Women club; you've been demonstrating that for years around
here. I think this particular insight is a major one, and you're right, it
can sure take work. I don't think I've ever been able to do this with
someone close to me without having to become consciously aware of what it is
about me that wants them to be different from the way they really are, and
what that says about my current state of being. Is that why it's so hard?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Nina" |
|
| Title: Re: divorce and the past and the future |
12 Jun 2004 01:32:30 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 18:06:42 GMT, "bunny" <bunny@nospam-blarg.net>
wrote:
"Nina" <ninaNOSPAM@economika.net> wrote
After probably eight or so years of working up to it, I finally talked
to my husband about getting a divorce, a few days ago. It's kind of
funny... I've spent so long with such a horror of this, for so many
reasons, and in the end, it was more anticlimactic and sad than
anything else. And a great relief, almost a happy thing. I feel like
my life, the future, is mine again. I feel like I can talk to people
again.
This is incredible, Nina. My god. You did it! Wow! You champion! I
mean, it's not like there was a lot of doubt about it happening when the
time came, but this is one of those things that is just so, so hard to do.
This is just HUGE! You truly are going to have your life back again. This
is just -- tremendous. I wish I could give you the biggest hug and also
pretend I had something in my eye so you wouldn't know the real reason my
eyes are wet.
Relief and happiness, yes. And to be able to choose to talk to people with
windows open or shutters closed, because it's what *you* feel like doing,
not what you need to do because the circumstances force it on you.
I'm so happy for you.
Thank you. :-) It's funny; the very few people I've told have all
congratulated me, and then most of them have apologized for
congratulating me over something, well, bad in some sense. But I am
happy. Really happy, even with everything else that's going on. It's
the weirdest thing, to be so sad and so profoundly happy at the same
time.
It's hard to learn to listen to things right, to hear what's
important, to hear what's real (when we screen through our own history
and interpretations).
That is so true. It's especially true when we want to believe the best of
someone. Oprah said that one of the most valuable things that Maya Angelou
taught her was "when someone tells you who they are, believe them." She
said, believe them the first time. If you don't, they'll tell you a second
time, and a third time, and keep telling you till you finally believe them,
and then you had to go through all those extra times. She was talking about
just exactly the kind of thing you're saying.
Yes, that's exactly it.
It's not exactly controversial to say you're a charter member of the Wise
Words From Wise Women club; you've been demonstrating that for years around
here. I think this particular insight is a major one, and you're right, it
can sure take work. I don't think I've ever been able to do this with
someone close to me without having to become consciously aware of what it is
about me that wants them to be different from the way they really are, and
what that says about my current state of being. Is that why it's so hard?
I have thought so long and hard about this over the last few days, and
I keep trying to make the insight into something that I can hang onto
and really figure out. But it's hard, and part of that is because not
hearing these things happens for a lot of reasons. So much of it has
to do with exactly what you said above, that it has to do with us and
our current state and what we want to be true. And when we love
people... especially in that young love, when it's new (I don't mean
so much chronological age as new relationship)... we want to believe
the best and that everything, everyone is perfect, even when we know
on some level that it isn't the reality.
Another version of this... my two sisters and I all married men who
are, in some ways, exactly like my father... profoundly emotionally
unavailable on some fundamental level, and, worse than that, unwilling
to see anything wrong with that or attempt to change it. Each one of
us would have sworn that this person was not like that. Each of us
was wrong. We see what we want to, and sometimes we confuse what is
familiar with what is right, if that makes any sense.
Plus we relate to things in the ways that we know, in the ways that we
are ourselves. It has taken me a decade to reconcile this at all...
how can it be that someone who I know loves me does not treat me in
the way that I would treat someone I love? (Awfully convoluted
sentence there....) But what I see as love and what he sees as love
are two different things; the mistake that I made was in imposing my
own idea of love on him.
And, of course, when we're young, we think we can change people.
People can and do change, but it's from within, not because you want
them to. Not unless that coincides with what they want for
themselves.
But on the other hand, I think there's another problem, and that's
that people are infinitely complex, some more so than others, and send
messages that can be incredibly mixed, and sometimes (as in this case)
the relevance of what you hear isn't clear. Sometimes we see the
potential rather than the reality, and sometimes what people say they
are, what they think they are, is something different from the
truth... but they may not even know that. Certainly I see that in
myself; I don't even recognize the person I was ten or twenty years
ago. You have to listen very hard, with your heart and your head and
your intuition, and even then, a lot of the time you'll get it wrong,
because we're hearing everything through our own distorting filters.
Nina
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Waxwing" |
|
| Title: Re: divorce and the past and the future |
14 Jun 2004 03:32:21 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:42:55 -0400, Nina
<ninaNOSPAM@economika.net> wrote:
After probably eight or so years of working up to it, I finally talked
to my husband about getting a divorce, a few days ago.
I hope it works out well for everyone.
Brian
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "wombn" |
|
| Title: Re: divorce and the past and the future |
12 Jun 2004 08:15:50 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:42:55 -0400, Nina <ninaNOSPAM@economika.net>
wrote:
When he told me that to begin with, I didn't think much of it. I
loved him, and you know how it is... you write it off to the horrible
ex-wife, etc. But I should have really heard that. I should have
listened.
how can any of us hear the full ramifications of these kinds of
anecdotes? until we've been through it.
So how did the discussion go? Will it be a slam dunk?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Nina" |
|
| Title: Re: divorce and the past and the future |
12 Jun 2004 08:26:45 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 01:15:50 GMT, wombn <wombnhearmeroar@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:42:55 -0400, Nina <ninaNOSPAM@economika.net>
wrote:
When he told me that to begin with, I didn't think much of it. I
loved him, and you know how it is... you write it off to the horrible
ex-wife, etc. But I should have really heard that. I should have
listened.
how can any of us hear the full ramifications of these kinds of
anecdotes? until we've been through it.
So how did the discussion go? Will it be a slam dunk?
It actually went ok. Surprisingly well, all things considered.
There's a sad inevitability about it all, and the thing is that
neither of us wants something horrible that's going to tear both of us
and our son apart.
I've been working up to this for so long that mostly I've lost the
anger and blame and all of that kind of thing that, I think, usually
overflows... though I suppose that it may yet. But I see so much of
this as no one's fault.
It's not his fault that he's not the person I need him to be, that he
can't give me what I need... communication and interaction, some sense
that I matter and am valued. He's a very good person in his way. And
it's not my fault that I can't be what he wants... or, that I can't
ask little enough to be happy with him. I don't want to change who I
am; I've worked too damn hard to get here. And he would probably say
the same thing. We've raised an absolutely splendid child, even with
our own totally dysfunctional relationship. And so if we can crown
this by ending this with some kind of grace, that will be a good
thing.
But it's sad. And stressful. And it's going to be for a good long
time yet, I'm afraid. There is no doubt in my mind that I'm doing the
right thing, and on some level, I'm incredibly at peace with this. I
don't think it's possible for it to be easy, though.
Nina
.
|
|
|
| User: "wombn" |
|
| Title: Re: divorce and the past and the future |
12 Jun 2004 09:21:21 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 21:26:45 -0400, Nina <ninaNOSPAM@economika.net>
wrote:
So how did the discussion go? Will it be a slam dunk?
It actually went ok. Surprisingly well, all things considered.
There's a sad inevitability about it all, and the thing is that
neither of us wants something horrible that's going to tear both of us
and our son apart.
I've been working up to this for so long that mostly I've lost the
anger and blame and all of that kind of thing that, I think, usually
overflows... though I suppose that it may yet. But I see so much of
this as no one's fault.
It's not his fault that he's not the person I need him to be, that he
can't give me what I need... communication and interaction, some sense
that I matter and am valued. He's a very good person in his way. And
it's not my fault that I can't be what he wants... or, that I can't
ask little enough to be happy with him. I don't want to change who I
am; I've worked too damn hard to get here. And he would probably say
the same thing. We've raised an absolutely splendid child, even with
our own totally dysfunctional relationship. And so if we can crown
this by ending this with some kind of grace, that will be a good
thing.
absolutely.
But it's sad. And stressful. And it's going to be for a good long
yes.
time yet, I'm afraid. There is no doubt in my mind that I'm doing the
right thing, and on some level, I'm incredibly at peace with this. I
don't think it's possible for it to be easy, though.
I did all the paperwork for my divorce, using Nolo press stuff. Of
course, we had no kids, so no custody or child-support issues to deal
with. We worked it out ourselves. When we asked for input from our
friends, we ended up fighting horribly with each other. Then we
realized that we disagreed with our friends, and so were able to come
up with an agreeable division of property.
We were only married for less than 2 years, so it was much much much
less complicated than your situation is likely to be.
I'm glad we didn't go for lawyers. Cuz the influence of our friends
was enough to want to rip each other's throats out. With lawyers it
would have been unbearably adversarial
Of course, your situation isn't the same as mine was, but I hope it
will be nearly as simple.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Nina" |
|
| Title: Re: divorce and the past and the future |
12 Jun 2004 09:38:32 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 02:21:21 GMT, wombn <wombnhearmeroar@comcast.net>
wrote:
I did all the paperwork for my divorce, using Nolo press stuff. Of
course, we had no kids, so no custody or child-support issues to deal
with. We worked it out ourselves. When we asked for input from our
friends, we ended up fighting horribly with each other. Then we
realized that we disagreed with our friends, and so were able to come
up with an agreeable division of property.
We were only married for less than 2 years, so it was much much much
less complicated than your situation is likely to be.
I'm glad we didn't go for lawyers. Cuz the influence of our friends
was enough to want to rip each other's throats out. With lawyers it
would have been unbearably adversarial
Of course, your situation isn't the same as mine was, but I hope it
will be nearly as simple.
I hope so, too. This should be relatively simple, and I'm hoping to
keep the lawyers out of it, because their job, in many cases, seems to
be to make you adversaries. We have no real disagreements or issues,
I think. We agree about custody, and I don't think that there will be
any real issues with property. We both have overdeveloped senses of
fairness. Unfortunately, NY has annoying divorce laws... unless you
want to claim grounds, you have to sign a separation agreement and
wait for a year. And neither of us wants to pull my son out of his
current school... so we may sign the papers, as soon as we work out
the insurance implications, and just live here for a year. Oddly
enough, the idea doesn't bother me at all. I'm just so relieved to
have it all in the open that it doesn't matter. We've essentially
lived like not-very-friendly roommates for years, anyway. Now at
least we can possibly be civil to each other.
Nina
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Patricia" |
|
| Title: Re: divorce and the past and the future |
12 Jun 2004 05:10:10 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:42:55 -0400, Nina <ninaNOSPAM@economika.net>
wrote:
This kind of
thing... all these things that he could not or would not do for me, he
would do for my son. And, while it's good that these things happened,
it said to me, you are not important. You do not matter enough. You
never did.
My ex never EVER used the word "love" unless it was connected with
sex.
And then his son was born. And he told the kid that he loved him
several times a day..
Yes, I know what you are saying here.
Patricia
.
|
|
|
| User: "Nina" |
|
| Title: Re: divorce and the past and the future |
12 Jun 2004 05:51:26 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 18:10:10 -0400, Patricia
<treeotter@vermont.usa.net> wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:42:55 -0400, Nina <ninaNOSPAM@economika.net>
wrote:
This kind of
thing... all these things that he could not or would not do for me, he
would do for my son. And, while it's good that these things happened,
it said to me, you are not important. You do not matter enough. You
never did.
My ex never EVER used the word "love" unless it was connected with
sex.
And then his son was born. And he told the kid that he loved him
several times a day..
Yes, I know what you are saying here.
I have thought about this so much, and I think that part of the
dilemma is that when you come from a family in which you're not
exactly valued, you don't know what a reasonable level of respect and
caring actually is. So, when someone doesn't do things that matter to
you, you're inclined to dismiss it, on some level (while perhaps still
holding that hurt in your heart), because you think that you're just
being overly... whatever. But when it's clearly displayed that
different standards apply (actually, just as they did when I was a
child), it's pretty hard not to take it badly.
I know rationally that the interaction between child and parent is
different from the interaction between adults. It's far simpler, or
it should be. And my soon to be ex was very damaged long before I was
ever on the scene, and never showed the slightest inclination to try
to change that. There are good reasons why he finds children easier
than adults, I suppose. But that doesn't change how much it hurt me
at the time, and, of course, nothing is different now.
Nina
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "SortaLily" |
|
| Title: Re: divorce and the past and the future |
12 Jun 2004 10:47:39 PM |
|
|
don't know what to say because i don't know your story .. but seems like you
should be proud of yourself for the strength you just showed .. good luck
and more power to you
sl
"Nina" <ninaNOSPAM@economika.net> wrote in message
news:2v7mc01itisurs49np2fva96avfiqadbfj@4ax.com...
| After probably eight or so years of working up to it, I finally talked
| to my husband about getting a divorce, a few days ago. It's kind of
| funny... I've spent so long with such a horror of this, for so many
| reasons, and in the end, it was more anticlimactic and sad than
| anything else. And a great relief, almost a happy thing. I feel like
| my life, the future, is mine again. I feel like I can talk to people
| again.
|
| While my marriage was never what you'd call terrific... or only,
| maybe, for short times when the level of fantasy was highest... it
| really fell apart after my son was born. I have always felt just
| loathsome and horrible for saying this, but the fact of the matter is
| that the amount of attention and interaction that I received from him
| prior to that time was pretty minimal, but just barely enough. But
| when our child was born, all attention became focused on him. And,
| what was in some ways worse... the things that I'd had a hard time
| with for years... why don't you call when you'll be late, so I don't
| worry? Why don't you remember birthdays and holidays? This kind of
| thing... all these things that he could not or would not do for me, he
| would do for my son. And, while it's good that these things happened,
| it said to me, you are not important. You do not matter enough. You
| never did.
|
| I don't begrudge my son a terrific... in some ways... father. And
| given a choice between a good father for him and a good husband for
| myself, it's no contest. But it's not a choice that you should have
| to make.
|
| He was divorced when I met him, more than 20 years ago, and he had a
| then about 4 year old child. And when we were telling our stories,
| back then, he told me one that I forgot, because at the time, it had
| no meaning to me. I forgot about it completely until he said
| something about it on Wednesday. His first wife said to him, when
| they were divorcing (in a bitter and horrible way), that he made her
| jealous of her daughter, and that she hated him for that.
|
| When he told me that to begin with, I didn't think much of it. I
| loved him, and you know how it is... you write it off to the horrible
| ex-wife, etc. But I should have really heard that. I should have
| listened. Not that it would have made any difference at the time, or
| to most of what happened after... but I've hated myself. I've thought
| that there was something wrong with me. I've thought that I was so...
| I don't know, needy (I loathe that word), that I couldn't deal with
| the split in attention.
|
| But it wasn't a split, and I wasn't wrong, and I wasn't pathetic. I
| don't know if knowing that, of having that validation, would have
| changed anything about the way that I dealt with it... probably not,
| because I was too sick and too depressed and too many other things to
| use that knowledge properly, and when you get right down to it, what's
| there to do? But I would have hated myself a lot less, I think.
|
| It's hard to learn to listen to things right, to hear what's
| important, to hear what's real (when we screen through our own history
| and interpretations).
|
| Nina
|
|
|
.
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
