| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"Jamal Chapultapec" |
| Date: |
23 Feb 2004 07:43:26 PM |
| Object: |
Explain to me these economics ... |
So, all the jobs (engineering, accounting, and others) in America are going
to other countries (especially India) because labor is cheaper. But most of
it's being done for developing products/services to be consumed by
Americans (yeah, I'm sure Europe and some other Asian countries also get
products from this.) But if Americans keep losing jobs, then they won't be
able to afford these products, and neither will the Indians who the
companies want to keep paying as little as possible.
So then what? We just keep creating third world nations?
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| User: "Nom dePlume nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com" |
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| Title: Re: Explain to me these economics ... |
24 Feb 2004 01:06:34 AM |
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I don't want to rain on anyone's parade by bearing good news, but a
lot of engineering jobs that have gone overseas are coming back. In
the software business, at least, outsourcing to India hasn't been all
that successful.
--
Nom dePlume, Ph.D
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
"Jamal Chapultapec" <your@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9498D2DA74EB0youremailcom@68.1.17.6...
So, all the jobs (engineering, accounting, and others) in America
are going
to other countries (especially India) because labor is cheaper. But
most of
it's being done for developing products/services to be consumed by
Americans (yeah, I'm sure Europe and some other Asian countries also
get
products from this.) But if Americans keep losing jobs, then they
won't be
able to afford these products, and neither will the Indians who the
companies want to keep paying as little as possible.
So then what? We just keep creating third world nations?
.
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: Explain to me these economics ... |
24 Feb 2004 01:45:43 AM |
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On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:06:34 -0800, "Nom dePlume"
<nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade by bearing good news, but a
lot of engineering jobs that have gone overseas are coming back. In
the software business, at least, outsourcing to India hasn't been all
that successful.
my last company was doing that. I wonder if they still are. Probably
not. It was a royal PITA.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: Explain to me these economics ... |
24 Feb 2004 03:29:28 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"Nom dePlume" <nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade by bearing
good news, but a lot of engineering jobs that
have gone overseas are coming back. In the
software business, at least, outsourcing to India hasn't been all
that successful.
In Europe, not only engineering jobs are
coming back, but some low level jobs as well.
Right now, we are at a point where almost as
many jobs are coming back as are still being outsourced
to the low-wage countries.
Some of the reasons are as follows:
1.) The wages in those low-wage countries are not
staying low forever, they are rising by 20-30% each year.
Industrial areas in former low-wage countries such as Poland
and Czechya have already reached the level of Portugal, Greece,
or other countries at the lower end of the EU.
2.) When outsourcing to one of these low-wage countries,
the outsourcing itself initially costs some money, but managing
the different cultures, different languages, and different economical
systems also costs some money. And its not just
travel costs and similar expected expenses. You cannot run a
production plant in China the same way you run it
in the US or the EU. Heck, even us Germans usually
get a good laugh if we get yet another mail from one
of those US managers (first we think "Its him yet again", then
we read and laugh, then delete, then ignore, because we are not gonna
break local law, or disappoint our local customers,
just because some US manager writes some e-mail).
3.) Customer generally are alienated if they experience
language issues. For example, if you outsource a call center
to India, and your customers have a hard time understanding
your new employee's broken english, you will lose
quite a few customers.
4.) When outsourcing to foreign countries, you usually lose
benefits from local supplier networks. For example, pretty much
every major production facility in the car industry is surrounded
by hundreds of local smaller supplier which provide parts.
When outsourcing to a foreign country, you will have to
build a new supplier network, and if some of your new
suppliers are not able to deliver the same quality as your
old suppliers, you might end up in a very deep hole.
5.) When outsourcing to foreign countries, you always risk
giving away your expertise to competiting companies
from those foreign countries. They will take your knowledge
and then use your knowledge to compete against you, rather
than be satisfied with producing for you.
Thomas
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| User: "Janithor" |
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| Title: Re: Explain to me these economics ... |
24 Feb 2004 04:14:05 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Thomas Dehn wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
"Nom dePlume" <nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade by bearing
good news, but a lot of engineering jobs that
have gone overseas are coming back. In the
software business, at least, outsourcing to India hasn't been all
that successful.
In Europe, not only engineering jobs are
coming back, but some low level jobs as well.
Right now, we are at a point where almost as
many jobs are coming back as are still being outsourced
to the low-wage countries.
Some of the reasons are as follows:
1.) The wages in those low-wage countries are not
staying low forever, they are rising by 20-30% each year.
Industrial areas in former low-wage countries such as Poland
and Czechya have already reached the level of Portugal, Greece,
or other countries at the lower end of the EU.
2.) When outsourcing to one of these low-wage countries,
the outsourcing itself initially costs some money, but managing
the different cultures, different languages, and different economical
systems also costs some money. And its not just
travel costs and similar expected expenses. You cannot run a
production plant in China the same way you run it
in the US or the EU. Heck, even us Germans usually
get a good laugh if we get yet another mail from one
of those US managers (first we think "Its him yet again", then
we read and laugh, then delete, then ignore, because we are not gonna
break local law, or disappoint our local customers,
just because some US manager writes some e-mail).
3.) Customer generally are alienated if they experience
language issues. For example, if you outsource a call center
to India, and your customers have a hard time understanding
your new employee's broken english, you will lose
quite a few customers.
4.) When outsourcing to foreign countries, you usually lose
benefits from local supplier networks. For example, pretty much
every major production facility in the car industry is surrounded
by hundreds of local smaller supplier which provide parts.
When outsourcing to a foreign country, you will have to
build a new supplier network, and if some of your new
suppliers are not able to deliver the same quality as your
old suppliers, you might end up in a very deep hole.
5.) When outsourcing to foreign countries, you always risk
giving away your expertise to competiting companies
from those foreign countries. They will take your knowledge
and then use your knowledge to compete against you, rather
than be satisfied with producing for you.
Thomas
Yup, well said. The easiest way to think of this is to look at the fact
that we've had relatively lower wage countries around forever. If wages
were the only part of the equation, then all nations would have equal
wages. As soon as one countries wages got too high, business would
leave, increasing unemployment, pushing wages back down in line with
everyone else.
Even internally within a country. Costs are much lower in the middle of
the US than in San Francisco. Yet you don't see too many tech companies
setting up shop in Green Bay relative to the San Francisco Bay. Why
not? Esp. since wages and prices of everything are lower in Green Bay
than in SF. But if you were going to start a tech company, were would
be a better place to start - in a huge metropolitan area filled with
other tech companies to get information from, steal workers from, do
business with, etc...or set up shop in the middle of nowhere, far from
quality employees, helpful suppliers, helpful competitors, and customers?
Another point is that trade is still a relatively small part of the US
economy. It's becoming increasingly important, but the bulk of our
economy is still domestic. And of the trade that does take place, a big
chunk is with other advanced, high wage countries. 1/3 of our imports
in 2002 were from Canada, Japan, and Germany, not exactly low wage
nations. According to the low wage theory, we shouldn't be importing
anything from these nations, since the low wage countries can make these
goods more cheaply.
What this argument ignores is productivity. Canada/Japan/Germany have
high levels of investment already. That means they have lots of stuff
like phones, computer networks, precision machinery, a well educated and
healthy populace, good government, etc...if you have a big population
but your people only have shovels, or you have a smaller population but
you have lots of CAT earth movers, which country's ditch diggers will
have higher wages? The people who clean for me all have cell phones, I
do their payroll cheaply on my PC, etc...so I don't have to spend a lot
of time or money per person for each hour they work. With cell phones,
I can take care of many problems without having to get in my car, drive
up and look at deal with the situation in person. I can answer the
phone and be done with the problem in a minute. A nation without a good
cell phone network can't do this, so it's cleaners will have higher
burdens, which means that they can't clean as much ***** per labor hour
as my people can. More cleaned per hour = more $ per hour.
.
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| User: "old coyote" |
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| Title: Re: Explain to me these economics ... |
24 Feb 2004 11:04:35 AM |
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Jamal Chapultapec <your@email.com> wrote in
news:Xns9498D2DA74EB0youremailcom@68.1.17.6:
So, all the jobs (engineering, accounting, and others) in America are
going to other countries (especially India) because labor is cheaper.
But most of it's being done for developing products/services to be
consumed by Americans (yeah, I'm sure Europe and some other Asian
countries also get products from this.) But if Americans keep losing
jobs, then they won't be able to afford these products, and neither
will the Indians who the companies want to keep paying as little as
possible.
So then what? We just keep creating third world nations?
This was Joe User's point all along.
--
_
-=oc=-
"you do not need to bargain your well being" - %
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| User: "judith" |
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| Title: Re: Explain to me these economics ... |
24 Feb 2004 11:15:46 AM |
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On 24 Feb 2004 17:04:35 GMT, old coyote <the_oldcoyote@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Jamal Chapultapec <your@email.com> wrote in
news:Xns9498D2DA74EB0youremailcom@68.1.17.6:
So, all the jobs (engineering, accounting, and others) in America are
going to other countries (especially India) because labor is cheaper.
But most of it's being done for developing products/services to be
consumed by Americans (yeah, I'm sure Europe and some other Asian
countries also get products from this.) But if Americans keep losing
jobs, then they won't be able to afford these products, and neither
will the Indians who the companies want to keep paying as little as
possible.
So then what? We just keep creating third world nations?
This was Joe User's point all along.
Well, Joe embellished alot with phrases like "turd world" and a
variety of colorful racial slurs. I take that back -- his slurs were
not just racial, he was an equal opportunity slurrer.
judith
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| User: "old coyote" |
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| Title: Re: Explain to me these economics ... |
24 Feb 2004 11:20:14 AM |
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judith <j_stillwater@excite.com> wrote in
news:ei1n30d8vomuvjf14jqgg46flcsg5s1fuh@4ax.com:
On 24 Feb 2004 17:04:35 GMT, old coyote <the_oldcoyote@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Jamal Chapultapec <your@email.com> wrote in
news:Xns9498D2DA74EB0youremailcom@68.1.17.6:
So, all the jobs (engineering, accounting, and others) in America are
going to other countries (especially India) because labor is cheaper.
But most of it's being done for developing products/services to be
consumed by Americans (yeah, I'm sure Europe and some other Asian
countries also get products from this.) But if Americans keep losing
jobs, then they won't be able to afford these products, and neither
will the Indians who the companies want to keep paying as little as
possible.
So then what? We just keep creating third world nations?
This was Joe User's point all along.
Well, Joe embellished alot with phrases like "turd world" and a
variety of colorful racial slurs. I take that back -- his slurs were
not just racial, he was an equal opportunity slurrer.
judith
Amen
--
_
-=oc=-
"you do not need to bargain your well being" - %
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| User: "Janithor" |
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| Title: Re: Explain to me these economics ... |
23 Feb 2004 08:00:37 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Jamal Chapultapec wrote:
So, all the jobs (engineering, accounting, and others) in America are going
to other countries (especially India) because labor is cheaper. But most of
it's being done for developing products/services to be consumed by
Americans (yeah, I'm sure Europe and some other Asian countries also get
products from this.) But if Americans keep losing jobs, then they won't be
able to afford these products, and neither will the Indians who the
companies want to keep paying as little as possible.
So then what? We just keep creating third world nations?
A very good question.
.
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| User: "Jamal Chapultapec" |
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| Title: Re: Explain to me these economics ... |
26 Feb 2004 06:26:54 PM |
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Janithor <Janithor@comcast.net> wrote in
news:403AB045.3000204@comcast.net:
x-no-archive: yes
Jamal Chapultapec wrote:
So, all the jobs (engineering, accounting, and others) in America are
going to other countries (especially India) because labor is cheaper.
But most of it's being done for developing products/services to be
consumed by Americans (yeah, I'm sure Europe and some other Asian
countries also get products from this.) But if Americans keep losing
jobs, then they won't be able to afford these products, and neither
will the Indians who the companies want to keep paying as little as
possible.
So then what? We just keep creating third world nations?
A very good question.
And like my question in ASDF, one you'll never answer, I'm sure.
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Explain to me these economics ... |
24 Feb 2004 12:42:01 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Janithor wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Jamal Chapultapec wrote:
So, all the jobs (engineering, accounting, and others) in America are
going to other countries (especially India) because labor is cheaper.
But most of it's being done for developing products/services to be
consumed by Americans (yeah, I'm sure Europe and some other Asian
countries also get products from this.) But if Americans keep losing
jobs, then they won't be able to afford these products, and neither
will the Indians who the companies want to keep paying as little as
possible.
So then what? We just keep creating third world nations?
A very good question.
Except that in advanced countries these jobs now have a third world
status. Low pay, no respect and easily fired. Thank goodness things
like coffee and cleaning can't be so easily farmed out eh Thor?
GlennT
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| User: "Janithor" |
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| Title: Re: Explain to me these economics ... |
24 Feb 2004 01:25:31 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
GlennT wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Janithor wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Jamal Chapultapec wrote:
So, all the jobs (engineering, accounting, and others) in America are
going to other countries (especially India) because labor is cheaper.
But most of it's being done for developing products/services to be
consumed by Americans (yeah, I'm sure Europe and some other Asian
countries also get products from this.) But if Americans keep losing
jobs, then they won't be able to afford these products, and neither
will the Indians who the companies want to keep paying as little as
possible.
So then what? We just keep creating third world nations?
A very good question.
Except that in advanced countries these jobs now have a third world
status. Low pay, no respect and easily fired. Thank goodness things like
coffee and cleaning can't be so easily farmed out eh Thor?
GlennT
I definitely have job security. I couldn't do retail like you, I have a
much more stable base. About 20 customers, might lose one or 2 a year.
Easy to pick up new ones to replace them. Retail would make me really
nervous, I would think you're much more tied into the economy. Although
maybe coffee is one of those small luxuries people aren't going to give
up as easily.
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Explain to me these economics ... |
24 Feb 2004 03:08:35 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Janithor wrote:
Except that in advanced countries these jobs now have a third world
status. Low pay, no respect and easily fired. Thank goodness things
like coffee and cleaning can't be so easily farmed out eh Thor?
GlennT
I definitely have job security. I couldn't do retail like you, I have a
much more stable base. About 20 customers, might lose one or 2 a year.
Easy to pick up new ones to replace them. Retail would make me really
nervous, I would think you're much more tied into the economy. Although
maybe coffee is one of those small luxuries people aren't going to give
up as easily.
Like Cinema in the Great Depression. I made my choice carefully.
Sell something to people that is inexpensive and gives comfort.
Something with wide appeal. But I just see that as Capitalism
working. Providing the real need rather than a projected one.
And yes, personality is the major factor. I love to be on show... I
am a performer. Retail is natural for me. My first job after school
was retail and I loved it. I did well at it.
I don't understand how you perceive my base to be unstable... 1600
university students trapped within my halls... closest competition
600 meters away. It's a gold mine.
At the moment I am haemorrhaging money... that I don't have.
GlennT
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