Sociology > Depression > Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions):
| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"Roland Koch" |
| Date: |
18 Mar 2005 03:14:12 PM |
| Object: |
Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
With sincerity, and not wanting to upset
the "special exceptions"
I believe that the cause of Depression
as outlined and so many times expressed
in this NG, is caused by an excessive
degree of SELFISHNESS.
Many posters are only interested in their own sufferings,
and aside from pretty "I hope you feel better" comments
-which cost nothing to say,
there seems to be no real power to heal.
"Meaningless, everything is meaningless"
A vacuous emptiness.
Empty, useless words, instead.
And looking back at my past problems,
which I now recognise as selfishness too,
it seems that the diagnosis is not too far
from the truth. SELFISHNESS.
I repent, personally.
God forgive me.
------------------------------
For Depression to end,
Selfishness must end.
In other words,
we must "go out on a limb",
forsake our "comfort zone",
and risk inconvenience
to help someome else in trouble.
That attitude SHALL help us to forget
how much WE are suffering,
and it will please God no end!
We are all miserably selfish
and worry only about our own sufferings.
Big Deal!
We are all wimps, chicken-hearted
lily-livered slobs, who deserve
to continue living the useless and dead life
we seem to lead, day by day.
-According to so, so many posts in ASD
May God have mercy upon us!
Roland
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| User: "Rhiannon" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
23 Mar 2005 02:24:58 PM |
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"Roland Koch" <rolandq@xlab.co.za> wrote in message
news:d1fg26$pdq$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
May God have mercy upon us!
Roland
Yeah...and God helps those who help themselves...like say...seeking medical
treatment for a real illness, as opposed to sitting around doing nothing and
waiting to be delivered.
--
rhianon@sympatico.ca
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| User: "RGB" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
18 Mar 2005 04:35:34 PM |
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In article <d1fg26$pdq$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>,
"Roland Koch" <rolandq@xlab.co.za> wrote:
I believe that the cause of Depression
as outlined and so many times expressed
in this NG, is caused by an excessive
degree of SELFISHNESS.
You silly. Depression is caused by UNHAPPINESS! Here, I read this on ASD
so it must be true, and it's help me tremendously over the years:
====================================
THE SIMPLE TRUTH: BEING HAPPY IS THE CURE FOR DEPRESSION!
Good morning again, I like to address some people with objection
to my advice, and then give it all again for 'new' people.
I gave it with love, some dont like it and say bad things but I
will be patient and explain. Maybe this will help you understand
how I can help you be Happy? Listen to me and you will find out
things that I find out the hard way but now I am glad I know
them! I cannot believe the thing said, some language is very
'coarse', some of you like the 'f' word, one man tells me my
posting is a toilet, well, do you know what goes in a toilet? Is
that support to tell me that my Happy words are like what you put
in the toilet? Or to say 'f' words to me like I am not the person
giving you a little Happy for your poor sad heart?
What I am doing is SHARING. Like when Jesus was with all the
hungry people, that had no food, The 5000, but Jesus gave them
his fish and they ate it! This is my 'fish', my Happy words, and
I post them for you hear like a fish to the hungry. You can eat
my fish or you can go on and stay hungry, which makes more sense
to you?
Here is the proof that sceince gives about what I am telling you:
1- DRUGS WILL NOT HELP YOU!!!
Proof? Have they ever helped anybody? If drugs help you, wouldnt
God put them in your body without you having to pay a lot of
money for them to doctor? Drugs are an escape, they make life
feel a little better but that is just an illusion, soon or later
you will have to face life without yodur drugs and then what?
Will you just take more drugs when you dont have any more drugs
to take? And then still more? DRUGS ARE NOT THE ANSWER.
2- YOU DONT NEED EXPENSIVE DOCTOR!!!
Proof? Doctors dont care about you! They just want to make lot of
money! If they had the answer, they should give it away for free
and then who would make them rich? They have to keep you sick so
that they stay in business! This is proof that DOCTOR IS NOT THE
ANSWER.
So what is the answer?
This is what I say and what people dont like! But it is so
simple, it is free and it WILL WORK! The answer is in two little
words:
'DONT WORRY, BE HAPPY!'
Proof? Here is science proof:
'DONT WORRY' - How can this help???
How much of your unhappy pain is from your worry, maybe about
money, or love, or happy? 10%, 25%? Maybe 50% or more? Well if
you take away the worry, you have that much more Happy, right? If
your worry is 25% of why you are not happy, if you stop worry,
you have 25% more back, and then you can work on the rest
(without drug or doctor money).
'BE HAPPY' - How can this help???
Well, if your happy, are you depressed? I know I am not! One
person said it is not to be happy that he is here, but I think if
you are happy you are not depress! If you can find the Happy
time, and live in it ALL THE TIME, will you be unhappy? The
answer is resonding: NO!!!!
I have lots of more information on this simple advice, I am
making a 'home page' to help people understand how true I am as
far as it goes, but it may be a time. While you wait I will be
glad to answer question about this. I AM NOT ASKING FOR ANY MONEY
TO HELP YOU! I will share my 'fish' with you for free, because I
love you and you love me!
Dont worry, be Happy! :)
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| User: "Roland Koch" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
18 Mar 2005 05:27:04 PM |
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"RGB" <rrggbb@mac.com> wrote
simple, it is free and it WILL WORK! The answer is in two little
words:
'DONT WORRY, BE HAPPY!'
Proof? Here is science proof:
'DONT WORRY' - How can this help???
How much of your unhappy pain is from your worry, maybe about
money, or love, or happy? 10%, 25%? Maybe 50% or more? Well if
you take away the worry, you have that much more Happy, right? If
your worry is 25% of why you are not happy, if you stop worry,
you have 25% more back, and then you can work on the rest
(without drug or doctor money).
'BE HAPPY' - How can this help???
Well, if your happy, are you depressed? I know I am not! One
person said it is not to be happy that he is here, but I think if
you are happy you are not depress! If you can find the Happy
time, and live in it ALL THE TIME, will you be unhappy? The
answer is resonding: NO!!!!
I have lots of more information on this simple advice, I am
making a 'home page' to help people understand how true I am as
far as it goes, but it may be a time. While you wait I will be
glad to answer question about this. I AM NOT ASKING FOR ANY MONEY
TO HELP YOU! I will share my 'fish' with you for free, because I
love you and you love me!
Dont worry, be Happy! :)
Ho ho, my mentor and nemesis, RGB!
I agree with much of what you said,
yes!
But this is what I cannot agree with:
"Don't Worry- be Happy"
You can't just tell a person to "be happy".
That is pure foolishness and totally inhuman.
A parent who's child has been kidnapped or who is lost
-how can they not worry?
A person who has lost a loved one recently,
how can they be happy?
Sure, time does heal,
but grief is also real, and lasts a long time.
And such emotions have nothing
to do with depression. There's nothing
selfish about it.
Worry and unhappiness is natural,
even if undesirable.
And Jesus has the solution to them also.
I am one of those
who can attest to His deliverance.
And Jesus experienced and understood
fear, anxiety and grief.
Oh, how it hurt Him to see people suffer.
And he healed where he could,
and he fed who he could
and he forgave all of us:
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"
And He is still alive,
to do the same for us.
GBY
Roland
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| User: "RGB" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
18 Mar 2005 09:29:42 PM |
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In article <d1fnrd$h1b$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>,
"Roland Koch" <rolandq@xlab.co.za> wrote:
And Jesus has the solution to them also.
I am one of those
who can attest to His deliverance.
Can I get two large pizzas with anchovies, sausage, and green pepper?
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| User: "Segovia" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
25 Mar 2005 04:47:09 AM |
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:35:34 GMT, RGB wrote:
1- DRUGS WILL NOT HELP YOU!!!
Proof? Have they ever helped anybody? If drugs help you, wouldnt
God put them in your body without you having to pay a lot of
money for them to doctor? Drugs are an escape, they make life
feel a little better but that is just an illusion, soon or later
you will have to face life without yodur drugs and then what?
Will you just take more drugs when you dont have any more drugs
to take? And then still more? DRUGS ARE NOT THE ANSWER.
They have helped tons of people.
Do you also think that people affected by diabetes, cancer, AIDS, etc., do
not benefit from drugs? I suppose "God" would have put antibiotics in your
body too if he didn't want you to die from the hundreds of bacterial
infections that they miraculously cure? How about childhood vaccinations
against various diseases that at one time in history killed or maimed
millions. Are they also an "escape"?
It's a *huge* problem with mental illness - that many people simply refuse
to accept that the brain is a biological organ, just like any other, and is
susceptible to malfunctioning and disease. Perpetuating this type of
thinking only increases the stigma that mentally ill people face.
--
Segovia
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| User: "RGB" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
25 Mar 2005 05:35:37 AM |
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In article <1pt36or9v3gvt.95qu6ag3xwf3$.dlg@40tude.net>,
Segovia <incorrect@malformed.invalid> wrote:
Will you just take more drugs when you dont have any more
drugs to take?
I like this part. Very zen.
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| User: "Bev Thornton" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
19 Mar 2005 12:49:59 AM |
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On 2005-03-18, Roland Koch wrote:
I believe that the cause of Depression
as outlined and so many times expressed
in this NG, is caused by an excessive
degree of SELFISHNESS.
You have existential angst confused with depression. As it is, your
statement above is wrong, depression has many different causes, but if you
replace "Depression" with "Angst", then it is correct.
Many posters are only interested in their own sufferings,
and aside from pretty "I hope you feel better" comments
-which cost nothing to say,
there seems to be no real power to heal.
That's right, this is only an online social support newsgroup,
"for people who suffer from all forms of depression as well as others who
may want to learn more about these disorders," as per the FAQ. We use it
as part of our personal networks of support. For healing, we go to
healers, which are MD, PsyD and some therapists, for care we go to nurses
and maybe social workers, MSW. Support for depression includes a lot of
things from counselling to things as tenuous as this newsgroup or a crisis
line. It's not treatment and it's not therapy, it's just help.
"Meaningless, everything is meaningless"
A vacuous emptiness.
Empty, useless words, instead.
Maybe you should talk to a physician about that. Unless you're referring
to reading tone poems or something.
And looking back at my past problems,
which I now recognise as selfishness too,
it seems that the diagnosis is not too far
from the truth. SELFISHNESS.
I repent, personally.
God forgive me.
Done deal, then. That's how it works, right? God forgives?
That attitude SHALL help us to forget
how much WE are suffering,
and it will please God no end!
Maybe so, but it won't relieve depression, clinical depression. It will
certainly relieve angst. Abandon selfishness.
-According to so, so many posts in ASD
You've been interpreting them through angst-coloured glasses. That is the
only reason they seem that way to you. There is selfishness, but there is
more than that too.
May God have mercy upon us!
That is the way it is supposed to work, isn't it? Merciful Christian God.
--
<bevthornton@despammed.com> Support: <http://www.banminesusa.org/>
The only real failure in life is
to not be true to the best one knows.
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| User: "áñti-ëVêrYtHïñG" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
18 Mar 2005 08:17:34 PM |
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:14:12 +0200, "Roland Koch" <rolandq@xlab.co.za> wrote:
"Meaningless, everything is meaningless"
A vacuous emptiness.
Are you some kind of Oreckal?
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| User: "Ivan Marsh" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
23 Mar 2005 02:18:59 PM |
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:14:12 +0200, Roland Koch wrote:
With sincerity, and not wanting to upset
the "special exceptions"
<snip religious *****>
May God have mercy upon us!
Roland
***** god Roland... you just described Buddhism.
....and if you think people are depressed because of their behavior and
not because of a disease then you have no business giving anyone advice in
this group.
I didn't do anything to be depressed... it's brain chemistry stupid.
--
Life is short, but wide. -KV
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
24 Mar 2005 03:25:52 AM |
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On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:18:59 -0600, Ivan Marsh <annoyed@you.now> wrote:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:14:12 +0200, Roland Koch wrote:
With sincerity, and not wanting to upset
the "special exceptions"
<snip religious *****>
May God have mercy upon us!
Roland
***** god Roland... you just described Buddhism.
...and if you think people are depressed because of their behavior and
not because of a disease then you have no business giving anyone advice in
this group.
I didn't do anything to be depressed... it's brain chemistry stupid.
I suspect it isn't anywhere near as simple as brain chemistry. They have
drugs that can boost several neurotransmitters, yet they completely fail to
make a difference for many people.
--
There are indeed a great many more things in life than money; and it is
money that gives us access to most of them.
- Terry Eagleton
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| User: "Ivan Marsh" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
24 Mar 2005 10:33:09 AM |
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On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:25:52 +0000, CyberDroog wrote:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:18:59 -0600, Ivan Marsh <annoyed@you.now> wrote:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:14:12 +0200, Roland Koch wrote:
With sincerity, and not wanting to upset the "special exceptions"
<snip religious *****>
May God have mercy upon us!
Roland
***** god Roland... you just described Buddhism.
...and if you think people are depressed because of their behavior and
not because of a disease then you have no business giving anyone advice
in this group.
I didn't do anything to be depressed... it's brain chemistry stupid.
I suspect it isn't anywhere near as simple as brain chemistry. They
have drugs that can boost several neurotransmitters, yet they completely
fail to make a difference for many people.
Simply boosting several neurotransmitters, with no real idea what the
outcome will be, can hardly be considered bringing balance back to a
faulty system.
My issues with depression started as if someone turned on a light switch
when I was in my early teens and have been constant ever since. There was
no "event". This is just how I'm wired.
--
Life is short, but wide. -KV
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
24 Mar 2005 10:56:45 AM |
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On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:33:09 -0600, Ivan Marsh <annoyed@you.now> wrote:
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:25:52 +0000, CyberDroog wrote:
I suspect it isn't anywhere near as simple as brain chemistry. They
have drugs that can boost several neurotransmitters, yet they completely
fail to make a difference for many people.
Simply boosting several neurotransmitters, with no real idea what the
outcome will be, can hardly be considered bringing balance back to a
faulty system.
My issues with depression started as if someone turned on a light switch
when I was in my early teens and have been constant ever since. There was
no "event". This is just how I'm wired.
And how you are wired depends a great deal on all the programming that
occurred from the time you were born.
I'm not saying that there can't be a purely physical reason for depression.
I'm saying that no one really knows that for certain.
--
DISCRIMINATE, v.i. To note the particulars in which one person or thing
is, if possible, more objectionable than another.
- Ambrose Bierce
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| User: "Ivan Marsh" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
24 Mar 2005 01:37:38 PM |
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On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:56:45 +0000, CyberDroog wrote:
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:33:09 -0600, Ivan Marsh <annoyed@you.now> wrote:
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:25:52 +0000, CyberDroog wrote:
I suspect it isn't anywhere near as simple as brain chemistry. They
have drugs that can boost several neurotransmitters, yet they
completely fail to make a difference for many people.
Simply boosting several neurotransmitters, with no real idea what the
outcome will be, can hardly be considered bringing balance back to a
faulty system.
My issues with depression started as if someone turned on a light switch
when I was in my early teens and have been constant ever since. There
was no "event". This is just how I'm wired.
And how you are wired depends a great deal on all the programming that
occurred from the time you were born.
I'm not saying that there can't be a purely physical reason for
depression. I'm saying that no one really knows that for certain.
Agreed, but absent any psychological cause there are few other
possibilities... and lack of faith is certainly not one of them.
--
Life is short, but wide. -KV
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
25 Mar 2005 04:07:41 AM |
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On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:37:38 -0600, Ivan Marsh <annoyed@you.now> wrote:
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:56:45 +0000, CyberDroog wrote:
I'm not saying that there can't be a purely physical reason for
depression. I'm saying that no one really knows that for certain.
Agreed, but absent any psychological cause there are few other
possibilities... and lack of faith is certainly not one of them.
Certainly not lack of faith. For that to be true would mean that all
atheists would be depressed, and that just isn't the case.
The problem is that psychological causes can't really be defined, let alone
ruled out. We just don't know exactly how the brain works. But we do know
that a whole lot of programming takes place before a person is even capable
of conceptualizing anything.
--
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover.
- Mark Twain
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| User: "Noon Cat Nick" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special |
25 Mar 2005 05:17:48 AM |
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CyberDroog wrote:
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:37:38 -0600, Ivan Marsh <annoyed@you.now> wrote:
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:56:45 +0000, CyberDroog wrote:
I'm not saying that there can't be a purely physical reason for
depression. I'm saying that no one really knows that for certain.
Agreed, but absent any psychological cause there are few other
possibilities... and lack of faith is certainly not one of them.
Certainly not lack of faith. For that to be true would mean that all
atheists would be depressed, and that just isn't the case.
More and more I think atheists take God much more seriously than many
believers. Their convictions about God have much more influence on their
behavior and words, while too many of us professed worshipers and
followers of God act and speak as if we're hardly even convinced that
God's out there watching us.
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
25 Mar 2005 05:31:19 AM |
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On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:17:48 GMT, Noon Cat Nick
<chatdemidiSPAMBEGONE@catlover.com> wrote:
CyberDroog wrote:
Certainly not lack of faith. For that to be true would mean that all
atheists would be depressed, and that just isn't the case.
More and more I think atheists take God much more seriously than many
believers. Their convictions about God have much more influence on their
behavior and words, while too many of us professed worshipers and
followers of God act and speak as if we're hardly even convinced that
God's out there watching us.
I think I know what you mean. I tend to have a problem with people who
seem to identify a little too strongly as being atheist. Where is the
passion in stating what you are not? Douglas Adams referred to himself as
an Evangelical Atheist, so at least he saw the humor in it.
--
DISOBEDIENCE, n. The silver lining to the cloud of servitude.
- Ambrose Bierce
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| User: "Whiskers" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
25 Mar 2005 08:56:36 AM |
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On 2005-03-25, CyberDroog <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:17:48 GMT, Noon Cat Nick
<chatdemidiSPAMBEGONE@catlover.com> wrote:
CyberDroog wrote:
Certainly not lack of faith. For that to be true would mean that all
atheists would be depressed, and that just isn't the case.
More and more I think atheists take God much more seriously than many
believers. Their convictions about God have much more influence on their
behavior and words, while too many of us professed worshipers and
followers of God act and speak as if we're hardly even convinced that
God's out there watching us.
I think I know what you mean. I tend to have a problem with people who
seem to identify a little too strongly as being atheist. Where is the
passion in stating what you are not? Douglas Adams referred to himself as
an Evangelical Atheist, so at least he saw the humor in it.
Atheism requires just as much faith as any sort of belief in a higher power
or deity or deities. Just not faith in the same concepts - essentially, it
is faith in the mutual opposite of all theistic faiths. Another way to
look at it, is to say that theist faith answers unanswerable questions by
resorting to unproveable answers, whereas atheist faith ignores the
questions. Either way requires a step of faith.
I do not believe that intelligent life is possible without faith - defining
faith as an acceptance that some things are the way they appear to be, and
that some things are beyond ones own knowledge or understanding. That does
not mean that one should not try to extend ones knowledge and understanding,
by research and observation and debate and thought.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
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| User: "RGB" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
25 Mar 2005 11:52:45 AM |
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In article <4eldh2-hta.ln1@ID-107770.user.individual.net>,
Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote:
Atheism requires just as much faith as any sort of belief in a higher
power or deity or deities. Just not faith in the same concepts -
essentially, it is faith in the mutual opposite of all theistic
faiths. Another way to look at it, is to say that theist faith
answers unanswerable questions by resorting to unproveable answers,
whereas atheist faith ignores the questions. Either way requires a
step of faith.
This is nonsense. The idea that there are "unanswerable questions" AND
THAT ONE CAN KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE is the height of intellectual
arrogance masquerading as humility, and is not at all characteristic of
any reasonable form of atheism. Atheism is the belief that there are no
supernatural beings running the Universe, period. There is no "atheist
creed" beyond this, and the idea that any atheist as such has a fixed
set of questions that they willfully ignore is just fabrication.
I do not believe that intelligent life is possible without faith -
defining faith as an acceptance that some things are the way they
appear to be, and that some things are beyond ones own knowledge or
understanding. That does not mean that one should not try to extend
ones knowledge and understanding, by research and observation and
debate and thought.
It's fine and more than reasonable to accept that there may be things
"beyond understanding". It's presumptuous and dogmatic to presume to
know what they are in advance. Once upon a time, the nature of something
like gravity would have been regarded as an impenetrable divine mystery,
today it's just a part of the ongoing scientific enterprise. Claiming
dibs on specific questions as "unanswerable" and then going on to
profess to know the answers is exactly the kind of theistic smugness
that frosts the shorts of many atheists.
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| User: "Whiskers" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
25 Mar 2005 03:12:20 PM |
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On 2005-03-25, RGB <rrggbb@mac.com> wrote:
In article <4eldh2-hta.ln1@ID-107770.user.individual.net>,
Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote:
Atheism requires just as much faith as any sort of belief in a higher
power or deity or deities. Just not faith in the same concepts -
essentially, it is faith in the mutual opposite of all theistic
faiths. Another way to look at it, is to say that theist faith
answers unanswerable questions by resorting to unproveable answers,
whereas atheist faith ignores the questions. Either way requires a
step of faith.
This is nonsense. The idea that there are "unanswerable questions" AND
THAT ONE CAN KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE
So you can confidently answer all imaginable questions? As for the part
you are shouting about, I don't know where you found that in what I said.
is the height of intellectual
arrogance masquerading as humility, and is not at all characteristic of
any reasonable form of atheism. Atheism is the belief that there are no
supernatural beings running the Universe, period. There is no "atheist
creed" beyond this,
So you agree that Atheism is indeed a matter of faith. "I believe there is
no God". That looks and sounds to me like a statement of belief, a faith,
just as confident as "I believe in God" and just as unresponsive to
argument.
and the idea that any atheist as such has a fixed
set of questions that they willfully ignore is just fabrication.
An Atheist would say that.
I do not believe that intelligent life is possible without faith -
defining faith as an acceptance that some things are the way they
appear to be, and that some things are beyond ones own knowledge or
understanding. That does not mean that one should not try to extend
ones knowledge and understanding, by research and observation and
debate and thought.
It's fine and more than reasonable to accept that there may be things
"beyond understanding". It's presumptuous and dogmatic to presume to
know what they are in advance. Once upon a time, the nature of something
like gravity would have been regarded as an impenetrable divine mystery,
today it's just a part of the ongoing scientific enterprise. Claiming
dibs on specific questions as "unanswerable" and then going on to
profess to know the answers is exactly the kind of theistic smugness
that frosts the shorts of many atheists.
What did I say about research and observation and debate and thought? I can
support my own position, but I'm not going to try to justify the position you
seem to have invented for me.
As for gravity, that is currently not understood. It has not yet been
detected, only predicted by current theories. There are phenomena that
have been ascribed to the effects of gravity, and some of those phenomena
can be measured. Likewise the strong force and the weak force, and
electro-magnetic forces. Describing and measuring and predicting the
effects of a thing are not the same as understanding or explaining it.
Try 'why are we here'? 'what is life?' 'do we survive death in some way?'
'have I got a soul'? 'do rocks have souls'? 'why so some people do evil
things?' 'why do some people not do evil?' 'what is evil?' 'what is the
purpose of suffering?'
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
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| User: "RGB" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
25 Mar 2005 04:29:41 PM |
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In article <kebeh2-3fg.ln1@ID-107770.user.individual.net>,
Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote:
This is nonsense. The idea that there are "unanswerable questions" AND
THAT ONE CAN KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE
So you can confidently answer all imaginable questions?
Of course I never said that or anything like that, so let's just keep
moving, shall we?
So you agree that Atheism is indeed a matter of faith. "I believe
there is no God". That looks and sounds to me like a statement of
belief, a faith, just as confident as "I believe in God" and just as
unresponsive to argument.
"I believe there is no god" is quite obviously a statement of belief. It
is not a statement of "faith". If you're going to contend that any
expression of belief is de facto an expression of "faith", you're just
playing Humpty Dumpty and redefining words to suit your argument.
As for "unresponsiveness to argument", I'm not at the moment defending
atheism as a position. I'm just defining what atheism *is*, in response
to your very distorted characterization.
As for gravity, that is currently not understood.
This is all beside the point. It's accepted as an area of scientific
investigation, that's all I'm saying.
OK, now, as for the "unanswerable questions" that you presumably think
you have the answers to and that you claim atheists ignore:
Try 'why are we here'?
The question is inappropriate. It presumes a "reason" for everything.
We're here because we're here. Unless there *is* a "god", there's no
"why" about it.
'what is life?'
Too hard for me at the moment, though I'm sure any biologist could offer
a reasonable first pass at an answer.
'do we survive death in some way?'
Only metaphorically and in terms of raw materials.
'have I got a soul'?
No. There are no such things.
'do rocks have souls'?
See previous answer.
'why so some people do evil things?'
Because they're angry, or frightened, or ill, or (etc., etc., etc.)
There are a lot of reasons why people do evil things.
'why do some people not do evil?'
There are a lot of reasons why people do evil things. Sometimes, these
reasons are not in effect.
'what is evil?'
I guess you could define it as malice in action, something like that.
'what is the purpose of suffering?'
There is no purpose of suffering.
See? No reason an atheist can't respond to these questions, either by
directly answering them or by rejecting them due to invalid
presuppositions.
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| User: "Whiskers" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
26 Mar 2005 05:03:27 PM |
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On 2005-03-25, RGB <rrggbb@mac.com> wrote:
snip
See? No reason an atheist can't respond to these questions, either by
directly answering them or by rejecting them due to invalid
presuppositions.
As I said, ignore the question or apply your own faith to the answer.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
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| User: "RGB" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
26 Mar 2005 06:06:59 PM |
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In article <va6hh2-4pg.ln1@ID-107770.user.individual.net>,
Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote:
See? No reason an atheist can't respond to these questions, either
by directly answering them or by rejecting them due to invalid
presuppositions.
As I said, ignore the question or apply your own faith to the answer.
Have you stopped molesting little children yet, "Whiskers"?
Come on, now, I expect an answer, don't "ignore the question".
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| User: "Rhiannon" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
26 Mar 2005 11:11:32 PM |
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"RGB" <rrggbb@mac.com> wrote in message
news:DOm1e.6336593$f47.1169794@news.easynews.com...
In article <va6hh2-4pg.ln1@ID-107770.user.individual.net>,
Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote:
See? No reason an atheist can't respond to these questions, either
by directly answering them or by rejecting them due to invalid
presuppositions.
As I said, ignore the question or apply your own faith to the answer.
Have you stopped molesting little children yet, "Whiskers"?
Come on, now, I expect an answer, don't "ignore the question".
That was low.
--
rhianon@sympatico.ca
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| User: "RGB" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
26 Mar 2005 10:30:02 PM |
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In article <kqq1e.12437$JK1.1098319@news20.bellglobal.com>,
"Rhiannon" <rhianon@sympatico.ca> wrote:
See? No reason an atheist can't respond to these questions, either
by directly answering them or by rejecting them due to invalid
presuppositions.
As I said, ignore the question or apply your own faith to the answer.
Have you stopped molesting little children yet, "Whiskers"?
Come on, now, I expect an answer, don't "ignore the question".
That was low.
It was, I admit, but I was angry. I get really sick of these tactics,
this game of pretending I've agreed with him when I clearly have not.
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| User: "RGB" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
26 Mar 2005 06:40:21 PM |
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In article <DOm1e.6336593$f47.1169794@news.easynews.com>,
RGB <rrggbb@mac.com> wrote:
See? No reason an atheist can't respond to these questions, either
by directly answering them or by rejecting them due to invalid
presuppositions.
As I said, ignore the question or apply your own faith to the answer.
Have you stopped molesting little children yet, "Whiskers"?
Come on, now, I expect an answer, don't "ignore the question".
Interesting... no response! I seem to have "touched a nerve", here.
OK, I'll just take that as a "no". Thanks.
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| User: "ponette" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
26 Mar 2005 06:57:20 PM |
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On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:40:21 GMT, RGB <rrggbb@mac.com> wrote:
Interesting... no response! I seem to have "touched a nerve", here.
OK, I'll just take that as a "no". Thanks.
Play fair. Some people actually *do* take breaks from their computers,
as hard as it is for you and I to acknowledge. ;)
p
--
x-no-archive: yes is in the headers
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| User: "Catybu" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
26 Mar 2005 06:59:12 PM |
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"ponette" <ponette0000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:u51c41hf3oec9n81rc47484nmh24pfldql@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:40:21 GMT, RGB <rrggbb@mac.com> wrote:
Interesting... no response! I seem to have "touched a nerve", here.
OK, I'll just take that as a "no". Thanks.
Play fair. Some people actually *do* take breaks from their computers,
as hard as it is for you and I to acknowledge. ;)
p
Are you serious?
--
x-no-archive: yes is in the headers
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| User: "ponette" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
26 Mar 2005 07:01:24 PM |
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On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:59:12 GMT, "Catybu" <catybu_2005@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"ponette" <ponette0000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:u51c41hf3oec9n81rc47484nmh24pfldql@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:40:21 GMT, RGB <rrggbb@mac.com> wrote:
Interesting... no response! I seem to have "touched a nerve", here.
OK, I'll just take that as a "no". Thanks.
Play fair. Some people actually *do* take breaks from their computers,
as hard as it is for you and I to acknowledge. ;)
p
Are you serious?
Well, I've heard as much....
p
--
x-no-archive: yes is in the headers
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| User: "RGB" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
26 Mar 2005 07:54:51 PM |
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In article <u51c41hf3oec9n81rc47484nmh24pfldql@4ax.com>,
ponette <ponette0000@yahoo.com> wrote:
Interesting... no response! I seem to have "touched a nerve", here.
OK, I'll just take that as a "no". Thanks.
Play fair. Some people actually *do* take breaks from their
computers, as hard as it is for you and I to acknowledge. ;)
I actually took a break immediately after spewing that nonsense. Coming
up against his "thank you for admitting I'm right" routine again was
really angering me, and regardless of the reasonableness of that anger,
it's not a good thing to give in to or embrace.
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| User: "ponette" |
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| Title: Re: Final and Accurate Definition of Depression, (with special exceptions): |
26 Mar 2005 07:58:32 PM |
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On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 01:54:51 GMT, RGB <rrggbb@mac.com> wrote:
I actually took a break immediately after spewing that nonsense. Coming
up against his "thank you for admitting I'm right" routine again was
really angering me, and regardless of the reasonableness of that anger,
it's not a good thing to give in to or embrace.
I get mad when people try to tell me that they know more about me and
how I feel than I do. I think I understand.
I once had someone in my family express pity for me because I'd
labeled myself as an atheist. "Can't you at least say you are an
agnostic??!!" he entreated.
No, I can't.
p
--
x-no-archive: yes is in the headers
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