Fire and Water



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Topic: Sociology > Depression
User: ""
Date: 09 May 2005 12:06:37 PM
Object: Fire and Water
The fire that burns in me today
Will also burn in me tomorrow
In all derangement and all sorrow
Its shadows on the walls will play.
Outside the opening of a cave
Or out of the volcanic crater
Is seen the truth of the creator
And everything that he may save.
It is in everything that's true
And also everything apparent -
The sky, illumined and transparent,
Alit in pink and white and blue -
Reflects him as though through a prism
And into multi-colored splednor
The universal truth is rendered,
Like lava bursting through the schisms.
The fire that burns in me today -
A spark of all-consuming plasma -
Will percolate like a miasma
Into the place where shadows play -
Will burn the skin of all therein
And fill their noses full of poison
And make the place destroyed and noisome
Until in cave they can't remain;
But burst into the higher mind

From higher mind to higher senses

And as their spirit-form advances
THey see the sun, but go not blind -
But burn through stone, through barren rock
And smash and tear and rise to passion
Shaking the earth like a concussion
And time resetting like a clock.
Water in heights; in water, heights -
In heights of mind exists life's essence
And in its gentle incandescence
At truth of universe arrives
In water, heights; and as its waves
Engulf, carress the restless kernel
Etheric merges with infernal
To cleanse the confines of the cave,
And send its members through the core -
Into the ever-waiting heaven -
And then return into the cavern,
This to repeat forevermore.
Ilya Shambat.
.

User: "Dave"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 17 May 2005 04:02:19 PM
wrote:

The fire that burns in me today
Will also burn in me tomorrow
In all derangement and all sorrow
Its shadows on the walls will play.

Outside the opening of a cave
Or out of the volcanic crater
Is seen the truth of the creator
And everything that he may save.

It is in everything that's true
And also everything apparent -
The sky, illumined and transparent,
Alit in pink and white and blue -

Reflects him as though through a prism
And into multi-colored splednor
The universal truth is rendered,
Like lava bursting through the schisms.

The fire that burns in me today -
A spark of all-consuming plasma -
Will percolate like a miasma
Into the place where shadows play -

Will burn the skin of all therein
And fill their noses full of poison
And make the place destroyed and noisome
Until in cave they can't remain;

But burst into the higher mind

From higher mind to higher senses

And as their spirit-form advances
THey see the sun, but go not blind -

But burn through stone, through barren rock
And smash and tear and rise to passion
Shaking the earth like a concussion
And time resetting like a clock.

Water in heights; in water, heights -
In heights of mind exists life's essence
And in its gentle incandescence
At truth of universe arrives

In water, heights; and as its waves
Engulf, carress the restless kernel
Etheric merges with infernal
To cleanse the confines of the cave,

And send its members through the core -
Into the ever-waiting heaven -
And then return into the cavern,
This to repeat forevermore.

Ilya Shambat.

By the time I got to end, I'd forgotten the beginning, but I did think
it was worth reading again. However it seems to be lacking in humour,
irony or self-deprecation all of which avoid the reader saying "*****
it with a pin."
.

User: "Arindam Banerjee"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 11 May 2005 12:35:34 AM
The fire that burns in me today
Will also burn in me tomorrow
In all derangement and all sorrow
Its shadows on the walls will play.
Dear Ilya, I hope you do not mind if I involve myself a bit with this
your work. Your thoughts are very good, but I think you have to match
it better with sound, or the way it reads. Maybe, that will increase
the impact of the meaning, both to you, and other readers.
Begging your pardon, I will rewrite your lines keeping hopefully the
same basic meaning and then try to explain why I did so.
The fire that burns in me this day
Will burn in me tomorrow;
In all madness and full sorrow
Its shadows shall the walls display.
Line1 - today is replaced by this day, as this day sounds less like a
calendar than today and the word this also adds a sense of immediacy.
More powerful.
Line2 - also is unnecessary
Line3 - madness is simpler, and refers to a general condition more
suited to an insentient object as fire. Derangement also makes bad
reading. full I think reads better than a second all.
Line4 - the word play after all this talk of sorrow and derangement is
really out of place, and after all that fiery stuff "will play" reads
rather lamely.
Hope you do not mind my comments, and wishing you all the best,
Arindam Banerjee.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Fire and Water 14 May 2005 11:07:30 AM
Arindam Banerjee wrote:

The fire that burns in me today
Will also burn in me tomorrow
In all derangement and all sorrow
Its shadows on the walls will play.


Dear Ilya, I hope you do not mind if I involve myself a bit with this
your work. Your thoughts are very good, but I think you have to

match

it better with sound, or the way it reads. Maybe, that will increase
the impact of the meaning, both to you, and other readers.
Begging your pardon, I will rewrite your lines keeping hopefully the
same basic meaning and then try to explain why I did so.

The fire that burns in me this day
Will burn in me tomorrow;
In all madness and full sorrow
Its shadows shall the walls display.

Line1 - today is replaced by this day, as this day sounds less like a
calendar than today and the word this also adds a sense of immediacy.
More powerful.
Line2 - also is unnecessary
Line3 - madness is simpler, and refers to a general condition more
suited to an insentient object as fire. Derangement also makes bad
reading. full I think reads better than a second all.
Line4 - the word play after all this talk of sorrow and derangement

is

really out of place, and after all that fiery stuff "will play" reads
rather lamely.

Hope you do not mind my comments, and wishing you all the best,

Arindam Banerjee.

Thank you for the wishes.
Your ideas about improving my work are interesting. The last line in
your version is indeed quite good.
Did you take poetry classes?
.
User: "Bret Cahill"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 15 May 2005 10:54:50 AM
"There is no need to traverse earth and sky to find a wondrous object
full of contrasts of infinite greatness and littleness, of deep gloom
and amazing brightness, capable at the same time of arousing piety,
wonder, scorn and terror. I have only to contemplate myself; man comes
from nothing, passes through time, and disappears forever in the bosom
of God. He is seen but for a moment wandering on the verge of two
abysses, and then is lost."
-- DeTocqueville "Some Sources of Poetic Inspiration"
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Fire and Water 15 May 2005 12:33:56 PM
Bret Cahill wrote:

"There is no need to traverse earth and sky to find a wondrous object
full of contrasts of infinite greatness and littleness, of deep gloom
and amazing brightness, capable at the same time of arousing piety,
wonder, scorn and terror. I have only to contemplate myself; man

comes

from nothing, passes through time, and disappears forever in the

bosom

of God. He is seen but for a moment wandering on the verge of two
abysses, and then is lost."

-- DeTocqueville "Some Sources of Poetic Inspiration"

Gonna have to read him.
.

User: ""

Title: Re: Fire and Water 16 May 2005 01:19:02 AM
That is the single most narcissistic poetics I have ever read.
--
Jonathan Penton
http://www.unlikelystories.org
.
User: "Bret Cahill"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 16 May 2005 07:42:39 AM
< That is the single most narcissistic poetics
< I have ever read.
When people complain about me quoting myself in my sig I always cave in
and say, "ok, ok, I'll change it to a REAL authority."
Bret Cahill
"Only nobodies are ever modest."
-- Goethe
.
User: "shrikeback"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 16 May 2005 09:11:04 AM
"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1116247359.379310.83240@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

< That is the single most narcissistic poetics

< I have ever read.

When people complain about me quoting myself in my sig I always cave in
and say, "ok, ok, I'll change it to a REAL authority."


Bret Cahill


"Only nobodies are ever modest."

-- Goethe

Goethe is just rationalizing a character defect he would have
even if he were a nobody. It's a German thing.
"Genes and culture have their way with me."
-Sir Frederick
.




User: "Arindam Banerjee"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 15 May 2005 05:25:31 PM
wrote:

Arindam Banerjee wrote:

The fire that burns in me today
Will also burn in me tomorrow
In all derangement and all sorrow
Its shadows on the walls will play.


Dear Ilya, I hope you do not mind if I involve myself a bit with

this

your work. Your thoughts are very good, but I think you have to

match

it better with sound, or the way it reads. Maybe, that will

increase

the impact of the meaning, both to you, and other readers.
Begging your pardon, I will rewrite your lines keeping hopefully

the

same basic meaning and then try to explain why I did so.

The fire that burns in me this day
Will burn in me tomorrow;
In all madness and full sorrow
Its shadows shall the walls display.

Line1 - today is replaced by this day, as this day sounds less like

a

calendar than today and the word this also adds a sense of

immediacy.

More powerful.
Line2 - also is unnecessary
Line3 - madness is simpler, and refers to a general condition more
suited to an insentient object as fire. Derangement also makes bad
reading. full I think reads better than a second all.
Line4 - the word play after all this talk of sorrow and derangement

is

really out of place, and after all that fiery stuff "will play"

reads

rather lamely.

Hope you do not mind my comments, and wishing you all the best,

Arindam Banerjee.


Thank you for the wishes.

Your ideas about improving my work are interesting. The last line in
your version is indeed quite good.

Did you take poetry classes?

No.
.

User: "Arindam Banerjee"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 16 May 2005 10:15:42 PM
Your ideas about improving my work are interesting. The last line in
your version is indeed quite good.
AB: Ilya, I thought about this a bit, and it seems to me that you are
thinking in Russian and writing in English. While that could lead to
many interesting turns of phrase, it also has a potential for disaster.
In Bengali, the phrase "aagun niyay khala" or "play with fire" does
not detract from the grimness of the situation - it only heightens it.
I fancy you were thinking on those lines when you composed the last
line of your first verse. In my experience, to write effectively in
English, you have to think in English as well. Which is not easy, but
facilitated by reading genuine English writers, yes, even those who
post to Usenet. Not for what they write, but how they write.
.
User: "Bret Cahill"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 16 May 2005 11:16:34 PM
How come Russians are such good story tellers?
Bret Cahill
.
User: "Wordsmith"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 16 May 2005 11:32:58 PM
What else is there to do over those long winters but sit 'round the
fire and spin yarns?
W : )
.
User: "Bret Cahill"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 17 May 2005 01:22:38 PM
< What else is there to do over those long
< winters but sit 'round the fire and spin
< yarns?
and play chess . . .
Sometimes censorship makes stories more interesting.
Bret Cahill
.






User: "Alice After"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 09 May 2005 10:05:07 PM
What if all of the poems titled Fire and Water were to cancel each
other out? What then? I ask you Ilya, what-the-hell then? I'll tell
you. Chaos. Absolute chaos. You cannot let this happen Ilya. Can...not.
Fucking sickmind will tell you. Seriously. And he's right.
.
User: "Bret Cahill"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 10 May 2005 09:17:13 PM
How About "Fire Without Water; How to get over 56% Efficiency From
Aircraft Engines"
? ? ?
Just kidding. I thought it was a pretty good poem. And I haven't
heard of any other poems named "Fire and Water" either.
Bret Cahill
"Poets lie too much."
-- Nietzsche
.
User: "Arindam Banerjee"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 10 May 2005 11:59:12 PM
"Poets lie too much."
-- Nietzsche
A poet or kavi in the Indian context is a seer of truth. By
definition. N is porobably talking about propagandists using the
technical skills of the poet.
.
User: "Shrikeback"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 11 May 2005 09:51:47 PM
The tao that can be expressed in words is not
the true tao.
-Lao Tzu
.
User: "Arindam Banerjee"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 12 May 2005 12:16:46 AM
Shrikeback wrote:

The tao that can be expressed in words is not
the true tao.

-Lao Tzu

Is tao the same as truth?
.
User: "Shrikeback"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 13 May 2005 12:32:17 AM
The truth about the way things are. Anyway, of course it is
true about Truth. The description of the Truth is not itself
Truth. They are separate things.
.
User: "Bret Cahill"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 13 May 2005 07:27:34 AM
< The truth about the way things are.
And conservatism is about censoring the truth.
Bret Cahill
.
User: "shrikeback"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 13 May 2005 08:55:33 AM
"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1115987254.027660.172500@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

< The truth about the way things are.

And conservatism is about censoring the truth.

And leftism is about making up arbitrary psuedo-truths
(such as "poster y is a conservative") and then making
the great leap of faith.
.
User: "Bret Cahill"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 13 May 2005 02:19:02 PM
<>< The truth about the way things are.
<> And conservatism is about censoring the truth.
< And leftism is about making up arbitrary psuedo-truths
What makes you think I'm a leftist? I'm not only a free marketeer, I'm
the only reputable free marketeer because I support the the
precondition of free markets: free speech.
< (such as "poster y is a conservative")
You oppose free speech for working people? Then you are a
conservative, IRRESPECTIVE if you claim to be a Democrat, liberal,
Libertarian, Green, commie or anything else.
Bret Cahill
.


User: "Shrikeback"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 15 May 2005 05:48:03 PM
And leftism is about making up a truth
and sticking to it, like Lysenkoism.
.


User: "Arindam Banerjee"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 14 May 2005 04:05:52 AM
"Shrikeback" <hewpiedawg@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115962337.947162.223000@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

The truth about the way things are. Anyway, of course it is
true about Truth. The description of the Truth is not itself
Truth. They are separate things.

Maybe, but what happened to the important word tao that you introduced?


.
User: "Shrikeback"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 15 May 2005 05:48:18 PM
Tell me, what is tao?
.
User: "Arindam Banerjee"

Title: Re: Fire and Water 16 May 2005 12:02:21 AM
Tao in Bengali/Hindi means to warm gently, as the hen warms her eggs.
I do not know the Chinese meaning for this word.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Fire and Water 16 May 2005 01:16:50 AM
I am inadequate to answer your questions, but no one else is trying,
so. There is no literal English translation, but when it is translated
directly, the word "way," as in a path, is used. When a Westerner uses
the word, they are generally referring to the Chinese school of
philosophy founded on the text, Tao Te Ching. Translations into English
and German can be found at
http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/taoism/ttc-list.htm .
--
Jonathan Penton
http://www.unlikelystories.org
.











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