| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"%" |
| Date: |
02 Jan 2008 09:45:35 AM |
| Object: |
HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
that i am who i am and that i am here
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| User: "punk" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
02 Jan 2008 10:18:44 AM |
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On Jan 2, 10:45=A0am, "%" <pers...@gmail.com> wrote:
that i am who i am and that i am here
hi
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
02 Jan 2008 11:25:04 AM |
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On Jan 2, 9:18=A0am, punk <punkb...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 10:45=A0am, "%" <pers...@gmail.com> wrote:
that i am who i am and that i am here
hi
I am lucky that I am here too, that I have friends to talk to like all
of you and that I have a family that works so hard to help me through
the roughest of times. I am lucky that my husband has stuck through
all of this crap with me and that I have children who keep me going
and going...
Jennie
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| User: "punk" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
02 Jan 2008 05:34:37 PM |
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On Jan 2, 12:25=A0pm, "jennieandch...@gmail.com"
<jennieandch...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 9:18=A0am, punk <punkb...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 10:45=A0am, "%" <pers...@gmail.com> wrote:
that i am who i am and that i am here
hi
I am lucky that I am here too, that I have friends to talk to like all
of you and that I have a family that works so hard to help me through
the roughest of times. =A0I am lucky that my husband has stuck through
all of this crap with me and that I have children who keep me going
and going...
Jennie
hey jennie...what a nice post. happy new year to you and your's.
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| User: "rose" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
02 Jan 2008 12:00:02 PM |
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On Jan 2, 9:25=A0am, "jennieandch...@gmail.com"
<jennieandch...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 9:18=A0am, punk <punkb...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 10:45=A0am, "%" <pers...@gmail.com> wrote:
that i am who i am and that i am here
hi
I am lucky that I am here too, that I have friends to talk to like all
of you and that I have a family that works so hard to help me through
the roughest of times. =A0I am lucky that my husband has stuck through
all of this crap with me and that I have children who keep me going
and going...
Jennie
Hi Jennie, welcome to ASD. I can relate to your sentiments
here....all I know is that my depression is that dark, condemning,
booming voice that tells me I'm no good for my family and unworthy to
be a parent to my sweet children when I know how much they love and
care about me, and not that they just need me, they want me in their
lives.
~Rose
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| User: "cal" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
02 Jan 2008 12:13:56 PM |
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On 1/2/08 1:00 PM, in article
ea3b5177-c1f5-4a30-ac3f-6fa274655200@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com, "rose"
<smudgedrose@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 9:25 am, "jennieandch...@gmail.com"
<jennieandch...@gmail.com> wrote:
I am lucky that I am here too, that I have friends to talk to like all
of you and that I have a family that works so hard to help me through
the roughest of times. I am lucky that my husband has stuck through
all of this crap with me and that I have children who keep me going
and going...
Jennie
Hi Jennie, welcome to ASD. I can relate to your sentiments
here....all I know is that my depression is that dark, condemning,
booming voice that tells me I'm no good for my family and unworthy to
be a parent to my sweet children when I know how much they love and
care about me, and not that they just need me, they want me in their
lives.
notice how depression is so often accompanied by self-condemnation? i wonder
if one comes first and evokes the other. and if so, which?
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| User: "Alan Harding" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
03 Jan 2008 05:10:03 AM |
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In message <C3A13E94.3FCF0%cal1360@gmail.com>, cal <cal1360@gmail.com>
writes
On 1/2/08 1:00 PM, in article
ea3b5177-c1f5-4a30-ac3f-6fa274655200@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com, "rose"
<smudgedrose@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 9:25 am, "jennieandch...@gmail.com"
<jennieandch...@gmail.com> wrote:
I am lucky that I am here too, that I have friends to talk to like all
of you and that I have a family that works so hard to help me through
the roughest of times. I am lucky that my husband has stuck through
all of this crap with me and that I have children who keep me going
and going...
Jennie
Hi Jennie, welcome to ASD. I can relate to your sentiments
here....all I know is that my depression is that dark, condemning,
booming voice that tells me I'm no good for my family and unworthy to
be a parent to my sweet children when I know how much they love and
care about me, and not that they just need me, they want me in their
lives.
notice how depression is so often accompanied by self-condemnation? i wonder
if one comes first and evokes the other. and if so, which?
I suspect that the lowering of mood comes first, but it gets to be a
feedback loop, so I'm not sure it really matters. No doubt someone,
somewhere, is researching it.
--
The opinions given above may be mine. They might also
just be what I feel like saying right now, okay?
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| User: "rose" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
05 Jan 2008 12:54:41 PM |
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On Jan 2, 10:13=A0am, cal <cal1...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 1/2/08 1:00 PM, in article
ea3b5177-c1f5-4a30-ac3f-6fa274655...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com, "rose"
<smudgedr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 9:25=A0am, "jennieandch...@gmail.com"
<jennieandch...@gmail.com> wrote:
I am lucky that I am here too, that I have friends to talk to like all
of you and that I have a family that works so hard to help me through
the roughest of times. =A0I am lucky that my husband has stuck through
all of this crap with me and that I have children who keep me going
and going...
Jennie
Hi Jennie, welcome to ASD. =A0I can relate to your sentiments
here....all I know is that my depression is that dark, condemning,
booming voice that tells me I'm no good for my family and unworthy to
be a parent to my sweet children when I know how much they love and
care about me, and not that they just need me, they want me in their
lives.
notice how depression is so often accompanied by self-condemnation? i wond=
er
if one comes first and evokes the other. and if so, which?- Hide quoted te=
xt -
- Show quoted text -
This is an excellent point. I don't know which one comes first, but
they certainly go hand in hand, at least for me. Some people really
don't consider depression an illness, but a weakness of character,
willpower, etc, and I know that has influenced how I feel about myself
as a depressed person, especially when I'm in a bad state. I hate
myself sometimes for being depressed and the choices I sometimes make
because of how it affects me. It's difficult for me to accept my
depression because it is so intertwined with my mind and emotions,
things I ought to have control over. I know for myself that
depression is just as real an illness as a physical illness. With a
physical illness, though, such as the gallbladder problems I used to
have, even though it wasn't visible (like depression) in some ways it
seemed to be more valid because it's a physical thing confirmed by
medical tests to validate that physical pain. On the other hand,
there is testing and such for mental illness, but it seems to be more
abstract to me. In some ways there is no proof like there is in
diagnosing a physical illness. I think for me the self-condemnation
comes in part from feeling so *desperately* that I want to have
control over my depression but that I can't. True, I have the power
of choice over my actions, but even then, sometimes my emotions are so
powerful that they literally take over. It's a fine line in some
ways....I am responsible for my actions but invariably my depression,
especially when it is severe, is going to affect my actions. It's a
vicious cycle from there....hating myself, thinking my family is
better off without me, being disgusted with myself sometimes that I
can't just rid myself of my depression, no matter how much effort I
make and the many many different things I've tried....anyways, I think
I've made my point. Is there anyone who struggles with depression
that doesn't condemn themselves? Another thought I've been
pondering. Thanks for your thoughts cal.
~Rose
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| User: "cal" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
09 Jan 2008 07:18:41 AM |
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On 1/5/08 1:54 PM, in article
c2e66a09-bb84-4cd9-b0b6-2388c46be60b@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com, "rose"
<smudgedrose@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 10:13 am, cal <cal1...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 1/2/08 1:00 PM, in article
ea3b5177-c1f5-4a30-ac3f-6fa274655...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com, "rose"
<smudgedr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 9:25 am, "jennieandch...@gmail.com"
<jennieandch...@gmail.com> wrote:
I am lucky that I am here too, that I have friends to talk to like all
of you and that I have a family that works so hard to help me through
the roughest of times. I am lucky that my husband has stuck through
all of this crap with me and that I have children who keep me going
and going...
Jennie
Hi Jennie, welcome to ASD. I can relate to your sentiments
here....all I know is that my depression is that dark, condemning,
booming voice that tells me I'm no good for my family and unworthy to
be a parent to my sweet children when I know how much they love and
care about me, and not that they just need me, they want me in their
lives.
notice how depression is so often accompanied by self-condemnation? i wonder
if one comes first and evokes the other. and if so, which?- Hide quoted text
-
- Show quoted text -
This is an excellent point. I don't know which one comes first, but
they certainly go hand in hand, at least for me. Some people really
don't consider depression an illness, but a weakness of character,
willpower, etc, and I know that has influenced how I feel about myself
as a depressed person, especially when I'm in a bad state. I hate
myself sometimes for being depressed and the choices I sometimes make
because of how it affects me. It's difficult for me to accept my
depression because it is so intertwined with my mind and emotions,
things I ought to have control over. I know for myself that
depression is just as real an illness as a physical illness. With a
physical illness, though, such as the gallbladder problems I used to
have, even though it wasn't visible (like depression) in some ways it
seemed to be more valid because it's a physical thing confirmed by
medical tests to validate that physical pain. On the other hand,
there is testing and such for mental illness, but it seems to be more
abstract to me. In some ways there is no proof like there is in
diagnosing a physical illness. I think for me the self-condemnation
comes in part from feeling so *desperately* that I want to have
control over my depression but that I can't. True, I have the power
of choice over my actions, but even then, sometimes my emotions are so
powerful that they literally take over. It's a fine line in some
ways....I am responsible for my actions but invariably my depression,
especially when it is severe, is going to affect my actions. It's a
vicious cycle from there....hating myself, thinking my family is
better off without me, being disgusted with myself sometimes that I
can't just rid myself of my depression, no matter how much effort I
make and the many many different things I've tried....anyways, I think
I've made my point.
of course there are actions i regret, things i regret saying...
responsibility doesn't mean never doing anything wrong, it means recognizing
it when i do, accepting whatever the penalty might be, and committing to the
effort of not doing it again.
for me though though the problem usually isn't action but the lack of it,
and not what i say but my silences. depression imposes this passivity on me.
it's not that i'm holding things in; it's that my thoughts dissolve into
vapour before they find their way to words or actions. i lose the meaning
and reason. i don't know what to do about that, besides wait and hope it
passes soon, and trust others to understand meanwhile. i guess a few do,
most don't, and some don't but stay because they love me. and that's about
it about that. i try to control my depression as well as i can, and i'm a
lot better with that than i used to be.
Is there anyone who struggles with depression
that doesn't condemn themselves?
i certainly used to. now i try to cut myself the slack i need and treat
myself as i would if i were ill with anything else: be still & try to get
better. i've had the luxury of being able to change my life to more or less
accommodate my "condition", which has helped enormously. i remain
apprehensive of the condemnation of others though. i grew up among people
who thought sadness (never mind depression) was a weakness of character, as
you say. not allowed. shed a tear if you must, then kick yourself in the
*****, paste on a grin and get moving. if you can't make it, fake it. but i
can't blame them either. it was their way of surviving and prevailing, so
they tried to pass it on. it was harsh and harmful and did me no good, but
the intent was good. i think. ok, maybe not entirely.
.
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| User: "%" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
02 Jan 2008 12:23:38 PM |
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cal wrote:
On 1/2/08 1:00 PM, in article
ea3b5177-c1f5-4a30-ac3f-6fa274655200@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com,
"rose" <smudgedrose@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 9:25 am, "jennieandch...@gmail.com"
<jennieandch...@gmail.com> wrote:
I am lucky that I am here too, that I have friends to talk to like
all of you and that I have a family that works so hard to help me
through the roughest of times. I am lucky that my husband has stuck
through all of this crap with me and that I have children who keep
me going and going...
Jennie
Hi Jennie, welcome to ASD. I can relate to your sentiments
here....all I know is that my depression is that dark, condemning,
booming voice that tells me I'm no good for my family and unworthy to
be a parent to my sweet children when I know how much they love and
care about me, and not that they just need me, they want me in their
lives.
notice how depression is so often accompanied by self-condemnation? i
wonder if one comes first and evokes the other. and if so, which?
i think it would depend on whether or not ,
the self condemning was warranted or not
.
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| User: "Alan Harding" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
03 Jan 2008 05:11:05 AM |
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In message <qIOdnRz31KxgS-banZ2dnUVZ_uGknZ2d@giganews.com>, %
<persent@gmail.com> writes
cal wrote:
On 1/2/08 1:00 PM, in article
ea3b5177-c1f5-4a30-ac3f-6fa274655200@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com,
"rose" <smudgedrose@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 9:25 am, "jennieandch...@gmail.com"
<jennieandch...@gmail.com> wrote:
I am lucky that I am here too, that I have friends to talk to like
all of you and that I have a family that works so hard to help me
through the roughest of times. I am lucky that my husband has stuck
through all of this crap with me and that I have children who keep
me going and going...
Jennie
Hi Jennie, welcome to ASD. I can relate to your sentiments
here....all I know is that my depression is that dark, condemning,
booming voice that tells me I'm no good for my family and unworthy to
be a parent to my sweet children when I know how much they love and
care about me, and not that they just need me, they want me in their
lives.
notice how depression is so often accompanied by self-condemnation? i
wonder if one comes first and evokes the other. and if so, which?
i think it would depend on whether or not ,
the self condemning was warranted or not
No-one is perfect, so there's always something that merits self
condemnation. Then you start imagining.
--
The opinions given above may be mine. They might also
just be what I feel like saying right now, okay?
.
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| User: "bunbun" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
03 Jan 2008 08:56:41 AM |
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"Alan Harding" <Alan@harding.demon.co.uk> wrote
No-one is perfect, so there's always something that merits self
condemnation. Then you start imagining.
That's as good a description as I've heard in a while. Don't you wish it
wasn't, though? Sigh.
I used to remember to treat those thoughts like I would intrusive thoughts
during meditation -- notice and say oh, there's that old thought again, and
then go back to what I was doing without letting it sidetrack me. Now I've
been backsliding and doing that imagining, and I'm not sure that ever leads
to anything good. Maybe it's one of the few kinds of imagining that are
bad?
I think I know why I do it, too, and it's such an ingrained habit, such an
old coping mechanism from when I didn't know how to do anything else. I
should be able to do better than that now. Habits are powerful. Once I
reconciled myself to the likelihood of a shortened life and a relatively
early death and got cheerful with that, I haven't felt like I had anything
to lose, so there wasn't anything to care enough about losing to make me
feel bad.
Now if I get something, I expect to lose it, which isn't as unreasonably
depressive as it sounds, since I really have lost almost everything I cared
about at one time or another during this lifetime. So my imagining is like
trying to be in training for when I lose again. When I find something I
care about, the things I imagine have to do with losing it, and how much it
hurts to lose that thing I've come to care about. It's like probing a
wound, how bad can it get, can I survive losing it, will this be the final
thing that just breaks my spirit and makes me give up entirely?
Almost everyone realises how foolish it is to reject happiness or love or
fill in the blank with something good, out of a fear of losing it. That's
unwise and immature. But this is only one step away from that, only one
step up, to embrace the joy of something good, and then go into little
periods of grief and mourning to try to get over losing something you
haven't lost yet, and may never lose.
It's like once that hurt feeling starts, I feel like crawling away and
curling up into a little defensive ball and shutting out everything else,
going far away from whatever it is that I feel is slipping away, and not
getting up again until I am emotionally distant from that thing and just
don't give a crap any more. And then I'm free again. It doesn't hurt any
more, and the joy of the thing I cared about is gone, but so is the hurt of
losing it. Peace and resignation and a certain kind of ease with nothing to
hope for and nothing to fear.
I'm not sure if that's an okay way to live or a terrible way to live.
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| User: "Alan Harding" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
05 Jan 2008 11:05:44 AM |
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In message <JI6fj.208161$q04.198235@fe10.news.easynews.com>, bunbun
<bunny@blarg.net> writes
"Alan Harding" <Alan@harding.demon.co.uk> wrote
No-one is perfect, so there's always something that merits self
condemnation. Then you start imagining.
That's as good a description as I've heard in a while. Don't you wish it
wasn't, though? Sigh.
I used to remember to treat those thoughts like I would intrusive thoughts
during meditation -- notice and say oh, there's that old thought again, and
then go back to what I was doing without letting it sidetrack me. Now I've
been backsliding and doing that imagining, and I'm not sure that ever leads
to anything good. Maybe it's one of the few kinds of imagining that are
bad?
Creative self-induced pain? They probably do courses on it.
--
The opinions given above may be mine. They might also
just be what I feel like saying right now, okay?
.
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| User: "Gayle" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
03 Jan 2008 11:05:28 AM |
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bunbun wrote:
I used to remember to treat those thoughts like I would intrusive thoughts
during meditation -- notice and say oh, there's that old thought again, and
then go back to what I was doing without letting it sidetrack me. Now I've
been backsliding and doing that imagining, and I'm not sure that ever leads
to anything good. Maybe it's one of the few kinds of imagining that are
bad?
It's a double-edged sword. For me. An encounter in my
imagination with a version of "the ghost of Christmas
future" can send me into a tailspin or it can motivate me
to change the things I can. But my bottom line on
indulging the visit with these kinds of thoughts is to
measure how it serves me right in that moment. Is my
current life experience richer or poorer for the
concurrent thought patterns? And it doesn't always mean
the imaginations have a negative impact if they're sad or
fearful. If I die tonight, today's lunch with my daughter
may be the very last one, ya know? The choice to go, or
not, becomes easier. The "negative" thought has an
affirmative effect. Sometimes.
I think I know why I do it, too, and it's such an ingrained habit, such an
old coping mechanism from when I didn't know how to do anything else. I
should be able to do better than that now. Habits are powerful. Once I
reconciled myself to the likelihood of a shortened life and a relatively
early death and got cheerful with that, I haven't felt like I had anything
to lose, so there wasn't anything to care enough about losing to make me
feel bad.
Now if I get something, I expect to lose it, which isn't as unreasonably
depressive as it sounds, since I really have lost almost everything I cared
about at one time or another during this lifetime. So my imagining is like
trying to be in training for when I lose again. When I find something I
care about, the things I imagine have to do with losing it, and how much it
hurts to lose that thing I've come to care about. It's like probing a
wound, how bad can it get, can I survive losing it, will this be the final
thing that just breaks my spirit and makes me give up entirely?
My son and I had a long talk last night about this
"training" for loss thing you mention. All in relationship
to football, of course, but that's one reason I love
football. Playoff football is sudden death and my boy and
I are at the point, emotionally, where all the chips are
in (to mix a metaphor) and, because it's been sooooo good,
the spirit-breaking stakes are frighteningly high. And,
even if there is a reward for this level of investment,
then it'll be over, never to be experienced ever again.
And that sucks, too. Is now the time to dis-invest in
caring about something to reduce the inevitable sense of
loss? Will the perspective that it's foolish to care this
much and risk emotional well-being about something that
doesn't really matter, and is transitory anyway, soften a
hard landing? Our conclusion: hell, no.
Almost everyone realises how foolish it is to reject happiness or love or
fill in the blank with something good, out of a fear of losing it. That's
unwise and immature. But this is only one step away from that, only one
step up, to embrace the joy of something good, and then go into little
periods of grief and mourning to try to get over losing something you
haven't lost yet, and may never lose.
It's like once that hurt feeling starts, I feel like crawling away and
curling up into a little defensive ball and shutting out everything else,
going far away from whatever it is that I feel is slipping away, and not
getting up again until I am emotionally distant from that thing and just
don't give a crap any more. And then I'm free again. It doesn't hurt any
more, and the joy of the thing I cared about is gone, but so is the hurt of
losing it. Peace and resignation and a certain kind of ease with nothing to
hope for and nothing to fear.
I'm not sure if that's an okay way to live or a terrible way to live.
It's a yin-yang thang, imo. Buddha said that desire is the
cause of all suffering so the not caring/not fearing
posture does offer peace. But death may offer a kind of
peace and that's soon enough coming. For me anyways. In
the meantime, I'll ride the wheel of desire and suffering.
Play Janis Joplin's "Get It While You Can". Loud. That's
what I'm talkin' about. Oh, and -- go Pats!
Gayle
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| User: "bunbun" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
03 Jan 2008 03:05:53 PM |
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"Gayle" <gayleco@rcn.com> wrote
It's a double-edged sword. For me. An encounter in my
imagination with a version of "the ghost of Christmas
future" can send me into a tailspin or it can motivate me
to change the things I can. But my bottom line on
indulging the visit with these kinds of thoughts is to
measure how it serves me right in that moment. Is my
current life experience richer or poorer for the
concurrent thought patterns? And it doesn't always mean
the imaginations have a negative impact if they're sad or
fearful. If I die tonight, today's lunch with my daughter
may be the very last one, ya know? The choice to go, or
not, becomes easier. The "negative" thought has an
affirmative effect. Sometimes.
That makes complete sense to me; thank you, Gayle. That pragmatic way of
judging the efficacy of giving myself permission to go there works for me
too. I need to remember to actually apply it instead of running on some
sort of atavistic emotion that feels like a hangover from some previous life
or something.
My son and I had a long talk last night about this
"training" for loss thing you mention. All in relationship
to football, of course, but that's one reason I love
football. Playoff football is sudden death and my boy and
I are at the point, emotionally, where all the chips are
in (to mix a metaphor) and, because it's been sooooo good,
the spirit-breaking stakes are frighteningly high. And,
even if there is a reward for this level of investment,
then it'll be over, never to be experienced ever again.
And that sucks, too. Is now the time to dis-invest in
caring about something to reduce the inevitable sense of
loss? Will the perspective that it's foolish to care this
much and risk emotional well-being about something that
doesn't really matter, and is transitory anyway, soften a
hard landing? Our conclusion: hell, no.
That's really an excellent analogy! Again, thank you, Gayle!
It's a yin-yang thang, imo. Buddha said that desire is the
cause of all suffering so the not caring/not fearing
posture does offer peace. But death may offer a kind of
peace and that's soon enough coming. For me anyways. In
the meantime, I'll ride the wheel of desire and suffering.
Play Janis Joplin's "Get It While You Can". Loud. That's
what I'm talkin' about. Oh, and -- go Pats!
Go Pats! I told Fred sorry, I'm rooting for Gayle to win everything,
gurrls rule and boys drool, and he assured me that you've pretty much got it
in the bag. GO PATS! Totally exciting! Gayle, you always know the right
things to say. I was even thinking about that exact same thing with the
Buddha, the lack of desire, and how I could pretend that that's what I'm
doing, when what I'm really doing is just trying to protect myself from
feeling a kind of pain I haven't felt in a long time. Hell, maybe that's
what the Buddha was talking about too. It's a way to resolve it within
myself without having to ask for anything from someone else, without having
to get someone else to help me, without having to admit vulnerability or
becoming even more vulnerable to someone else when I already feel too naked.
It's chickenshit. Riding the Mandala is harder but it's genuine. And since
I'm one of those freaks who believes in reincarnation, what am I doing
trying to escape an opportunity to learn better and do better and get closer
to where I want to go, anyway?
Scary. But...ride. Thanks, Gayle. Just another reminder of why I love
you.
.
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| User: "Gayle" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
04 Jan 2008 01:20:46 PM |
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bunbun wrote:
he assured me that you've pretty much got it
in the bag.
Ahem. It's okay for Fred to say that -- but not for me to
hear it. Statistically, he's right. Barring injuries, they
might possibly be able to beat any of the playoff teams,
let's say 2 out of 3 times. On paper. Realistically, the
reason they actually play the games is cuz one never
knows, do one? Another reason I love football is because
when the game is on, all hell breaks loose and anything
can happen. It keeps me open to how reality really works.
One of the players put out a shirt (proceeds for charity)
that sez: Be humble or be humbled.
I was even thinking about that exact same thing with the
Buddha, the lack of desire, and how I could pretend that that's what I'm
doing, when what I'm really doing is just trying to protect myself from
feeling a kind of pain I haven't felt in a long time. Hell, maybe that's
what the Buddha was talking about too. It's a way to resolve it within
myself without having to ask for anything from someone else, without having
to get someone else to help me, without having to admit vulnerability or
becoming even more vulnerable to someone else when I already feel too naked.
It's chickenshit.
But very courageous of you to be willing to examine, imo.
And a big "me, too". Here's what "be humble or be humbled"
means to me: I'm fiercely proud of how little help I ask
for. My greatest fear invokes visions of dependency. The
second tier of fears include that I will attract the
lessons I fear most. So I've been venturing into my
particular vulnerability zones, asking for help and being
more communicative about my fears. Which is humbling, but
of the volitional variety. And I don't have to shovel any
damn snow, bonus.
Riding the Mandala is harder but it's genuine. And since
I'm one of those freaks who believes in reincarnation, what am I doing
trying to escape an opportunity to learn better and do better and get closer
to where I want to go, anyway?
I've been reading a lot of the "living with intention"
stuff that's popular right now and spent a lot of time
thinking about the words intent, intention, intense, et
al. To me, it means 'to reach for' and, if I'm willing to
dream, to hope, to name the desire, it serves me better
than a general yearning for some kinda something. There's
a 3-foot sign in my home-office that sez: "IMAGINE" in big
block letters. I do a 30-minute exercise every day.
Because I tend towards OCD, heh, and also because I think
it's a muscle. Use it or lose it and the status quo rules.
It's just my version of farting around which is what
Vonnegut said is what we're here to do. And I believe him.
Scary. But...ride. Thanks, Gayle. Just another reminder of why I love
you.
Scary, indeed, but we're not taking this trip alone. Which
is another reason why I love you. Because you're "here".
Gayle
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| User: "cal" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
09 Jan 2008 06:33:36 AM |
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On 1/3/08 6:11 AM, in article EaQ0FGSJLMfHFw$Y@harding.demon.co.uk, "Alan
Harding" <Alan@harding.demon.co.uk> wrote:
In message <qIOdnRz31KxgS-banZ2dnUVZ_uGknZ2d@giganews.com>, %
<persent@gmail.com> writes
cal wrote:
On 1/2/08 1:00 PM, in article
ea3b5177-c1f5-4a30-ac3f-6fa274655200@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com,
"rose" <smudgedrose@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 9:25 am, "jennieandch...@gmail.com"
<jennieandch...@gmail.com> wrote:
I am lucky that I am here too, that I have friends to talk to like
all of you and that I have a family that works so hard to help me
through the roughest of times. I am lucky that my husband has stuck
through all of this crap with me and that I have children who keep
me going and going...
Jennie
Hi Jennie, welcome to ASD. I can relate to your sentiments
here....all I know is that my depression is that dark, condemning,
booming voice that tells me I'm no good for my family and unworthy to
be a parent to my sweet children when I know how much they love and
care about me, and not that they just need me, they want me in their
lives.
notice how depression is so often accompanied by self-condemnation? i
wonder if one comes first and evokes the other. and if so, which?
i think it would depend on whether or not ,
the self condemning was warranted or not
No-one is perfect, so there's always something that merits self
condemnation. Then you start imagining.
there are definitely times when self-examination and thinking about ways i
might benefit from changing are warranted, but i don't think
self-condemnation is ever warranted. see with the first, i'm my friend; with
the second, i'm my enemy.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
02 Jan 2008 04:10:05 PM |
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On Jan 2, 11:00=A0am, rose <smudgedr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 9:25=A0am, "jennieandch...@gmail.com"
<jennieandch...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 9:18=A0am, punk <punkb...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 10:45=A0am, "%" <pers...@gmail.com> wrote:
that i am who i am and that i am here
hi
I am lucky that I am here too, that I have friends to talk to like all
of you and that I have a family that works so hard to help me through
the roughest of times. =A0I am lucky that my husband has stuck through
all of this crap with me and that I have children who keep me going
and going...
Jennie
Hi Jennie, welcome to ASD. =A0I can relate to your sentiments
here....all I know is that my depression is that dark, condemning,
booming voice that tells me I'm no good for my family and unworthy to
be a parent to my sweet children when I know how much they love and
care about me, and not that they just need me, they want me in their
lives.
~Rose
Rose,
I have the same problem. I just spent 2 weeks in the hospital for
exactly that reason. I have never tried anything but the thoughts
that they would be better off without me, that thier lives would be
less of a problem without all of my crap going on. I thought that my
husband was ready to leave and I knew that I couldn't take care of the
kids without him or his help so I kept thinking that I would loose
them all. I fear that my inability to take care of everything that I
am supposed to will cost me them all. I still have that fear even
though during the hospital stay we had a meeting with Chris and I. We
talked about what was going on. I have to explain to him how bad the
pain is, what each of my conditions feel like and he cried. Then I
told him that I was scared that I was going to loose him and that he
was going to walk away. He promised me that he wasn't.
When I explained to him how I felt I had to break it down by condition
and what each one does to me on a daily basis. I have polycystic
ovaries which causes me to grow at least one cyst about once a week.
They feel like knives being shoved into my lower abdomen. I have
Interstitial Cystitis which feels like I have a bladder infection or a
UTI. I have sciatica which makes my legs go out from under me and
causes sharp pains that run from my lower back down my legs. I have
IBS which causes cramping and the fun alternating bowels. UG! I have
Fibromyalgia which on a good day I wake up feeling like I have the flu
with the muscle aches. On a flair day I wake up with swollen joints
and I have to lay in bed until I have worked my way up my body slowly
moving each muscle to get it looser. I walk on pins and needles and
all my muscles feel like they are on fire. I have chronic migraines
which always end up affecting my left eye. A few years ago I got
shingles in that eye and now when I get a migraine it hits that nerve
and there are sharp pains running through my eye, tearing it up and
going up my head and down my neck. That on top of the light
sensitivity and sound issues. By the time I was done telling him all
of this he was crying. The doctor then told him that his fears of my
becoming an addict are unfounded because the rate of addiction in
people with chronic pain is very low. She also told him that with all
of these things I needed to be on pain medication and that he and I
can hope that the doses go down as we deal with some of the fixable
issues but to expect me to be on them for life. It felt so good to be
able to tell him how I felt and to make him understand why I am on the
meds and why there are days when I can barely move or want to.
I am sorry, I went off on a tangent. As I was trying to say, I
totally understand what you mean by feeling that way about your
family. I think that this is the toughest part of depression to deal
with and get around.
You hit it on the nail Rose,
Jennie
.
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| User: "rose" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
05 Jan 2008 01:07:52 PM |
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On Jan 2, 2:10=A0pm, "jennieandch...@gmail.com"
<jennieandch...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 11:00=A0am, rose <smudgedr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 9:25=A0am, "jennieandch...@gmail.com"
<jennieandch...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 9:18=A0am, punk <punkb...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 10:45=A0am, "%" <pers...@gmail.com> wrote:
that i am who i am and that i am here
hi
I am lucky that I am here too, that I have friends to talk to like all=
of you and that I have a family that works so hard to help me through
the roughest of times. =A0I am lucky that my husband has stuck through=
all of this crap with me and that I have children who keep me going
and going...
Jennie
Hi Jennie, welcome to ASD. =A0I can relate to your sentiments
here....all I know is that my depression is that dark, condemning,
booming voice that tells me I'm no good for my family and unworthy to
be a parent to my sweet children when I know how much they love and
care about me, and not that they just need me, they want me in their
lives.
~Rose
Rose,
I have the same problem. =A0I just spent 2 weeks in the hospital for
exactly that reason. =A0I have never tried anything but the thoughts
that they would be better off without me, that thier lives would be
less of a problem without all of my crap going on. =A0I thought that my
husband was ready to leave and I knew that I couldn't take care of the
kids without him or his help so I kept thinking that I would loose
them all. =A0I fear that my inability to take care of everything that I
am supposed to will cost me them all. =A0I still have that fear even
though during the hospital stay we had a meeting with Chris and I. =A0We
talked about what was going on. =A0I have to explain to him how bad the
pain is, what each of my conditions feel like and he cried. =A0Then I
told him that I was scared that I was going to loose him and that he
was going to walk away. =A0He promised me that he wasn't.
When I explained to him how I felt I had to break it down by condition
and what each one does to me on a daily basis. =A0I have polycystic
ovaries which causes me to grow at least one cyst about once a week.
They feel like knives being shoved into my lower abdomen. =A0I have
Interstitial Cystitis which feels like I have a bladder infection or a
UTI. =A0I have sciatica which makes my legs go out from under me and
causes sharp pains that run from my lower back down my legs. =A0I have
IBS which causes cramping and the fun alternating bowels. =A0UG! =A0I have=
Fibromyalgia which on a good day I wake up feeling like I have the flu
with the muscle aches. =A0On a flair day I wake up with swollen joints
and I have to lay in bed until I have worked my way up my body slowly
moving each muscle to get it looser. =A0I walk on pins and needles and
all my muscles feel like they are on fire. =A0I have chronic migraines
which always end up affecting my left eye. =A0A few years ago I got
shingles in that eye and now when I get a migraine it hits that nerve
and there are sharp pains running through my eye, tearing it up and
going up my head and down my neck. =A0That on top of the light
sensitivity and sound issues. =A0By the time I was done telling him all
of this he was crying. =A0The doctor then told him that his fears of my
becoming an addict are unfounded because the rate of addiction in
people with chronic pain is very low. =A0She also told him that with all
of these things I needed to be on pain medication and that he and I
can hope that the doses go down as we deal with some of the fixable
issues but to expect me to be on them for life. =A0It felt so good to be
able to tell him how I felt and to make him understand why I am on the
meds and why there are days when I can barely move or want to.
I am sorry, I went off on a tangent. =A0As I was trying to say, I
totally understand what you mean by feeling that way about your
family. =A0I think that this is the toughest part of depression to deal
with and get around.
You hit it on the nail Rose,
Jennie- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Dear Jennie....
I can't tell you how sorry I am for all you have been through. It
sounds so awful, more than I can imagine. I have had my own road of
many health issues and other physically painful things in my life, and
I do think I can understand in some way just how much it exacerbates
depression. In some ways your thoughts sound so similar to some of my
own. In my darkest times I am absolutely convinced that I am not just
a burden to my family but that I'm causing them very real damage and
that their lives would go on in a healthier direction without me. I
worry so much, sometimes obssessively, about how my depression, about
how I as a depressed mother affect my children, and it hurts deeply.
However, I know that they love me. And not just because I'm the only
mother they've known but because I do offer them some valuable things
as their mother. I'm not just some terrible mother who offers them
nothing. I do many things for them that are good, and most of the
time I take good care of them.
The times when I despair on behalf of my familiy and factor in those
thoughts and feelings of how much better their lives would be without
me, those are the times I *have* to remember that that's the ugly,
vile, dark voice of my depression talking to me, telling me how rotten
I am, how I don't deserve them, how they deserve so much more, how I
even physically hurt that they don't have, in my mind, a mother who is
'whole', if that makes any sense. Yes, my depression is very real and
it affects my family, and unfortunately it's something they have to
live with and deal with. Is that any different though than children
who have a parent confined to a wheelchair, or a parent who is
physically ill much of the time, or a parent who cannot speak or
hear? I mean that most families have things that are challenges and
difficulties that the entire family have to learn to live with and
cope with. I'm not a terrible person for 'subjecting' my family to my
depression, it's something that is part of me. God knows I would do
just about anything to rid myself of my mental illness, but I can't,
and so we live with it and deal with it.
I don't know if any of this makes any sense, but I hope that you know
that you aren't your depression, and you also aren't your physical
illnesses. Those are a part of you, a big part of you, but that's not
all that you are. Please take care of yourself and I hope to see you
posting more on asd if it helps you. Hugs....
~Rose
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
05 Jan 2008 03:01:11 PM |
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Nii and Rose,
Nii, thanks for the support. This is why I come here to make friends
and find people who can relate to me. I have some supposed friends
who get so angry at me because the more I hurt the more I talk about
it. I try so hard to talk about other things but when you feel like
your whole body is on fire and when nothing you do, even medication
helps enough to help you move it is hard to think about anything
else. I have tried to tell them that if they are going to be my
friend that they are going to have to take me as I am. As a friend I
need them to believe in what I have, believe that I am in pain and not
imagining it or lazy or looking for attention. As friends I need them
to help me stay positive and at times remind me when I am focused and
talking about nothing but the pain.
Rose, that is exactly how I feel. The pain makes the depression
harder to deal with and makes it harder to get around some days so
therefore I feel more pain the more depressed I get. I can't keep up
but I feel the way you do about your family, being a mother and wife.
I can't make love to my husband without feeling at its nicest like it
is my first time and in flair times like, well I can't even describe
how painful it is. I want to badly to be with him and love him often
like a man needs but I can't and it makes me angry and more depressed
when I have to turn him down.
I get so angry that I can't do things for my kids that they want me to
do. My oldest son is 10 and he is beginning to show symptoms of Fibro
and chronic migraines. This makes me even more angry because I
wouldn't wish this pain on my worst enemy and here my son has it and
my other sons may get it as well. They will also inherit my history
of depression. I feel like I am doing more harm then good at times.
Then I remember what my husband tells me all the time. I am here for
them which is more then my mother could be. I can hug them, kiss
their wounds and help them with their homework. Michiel is the first
one to get me a cup of water and tell me to sit down when he sees that
I am shaking from the pain. Then he gently rubs my neck (feels like
he is tearing my muscles off my neck) but I know that he is only
trying to help me so I grin and bear it. Even my youngest is
beginning to know when I hurt. He will climb into my lap and give me
lots of kisses to make it better and will sit in my lap until I need
to get up. My husband does everything that he can to help me out. He
keeps a lower paying job then ones he has been offered because this
one allows him to come home a few times a day to check on me or take
off work when I need more help. I can't ask for more and they all
just want me to be happy. Unfortunatley they are used to me being in
the hospital quite often and don't even worry any more because I have
to go to ER or stay for a week or so at least once every 3 months. I
have a lot to be thankful for. I try to think about this as often as
I can. My new years resolution is to wake up in the morning and write
down an affirmation to think about during the day. I also resolved to
walk at the very least a block 3 times a week and then increase this
distance every few weeks. Right now that far will make it harder for
me to move the next day.
I appreciate your kind words, hopefully friendships and listening
ears. Maybe we can support each other and know that we can vent to
someone without feeling like we are being judged, not believed or
lonely in this world and condition. The depression is something that
no one can see and some have no idea how hard it is to live with.
Everyone knows about depression but many feel that it can be overcome
if we were just stronger and just commited to getting better. For me
the Fibro is just as difficult because the pain isn't visible. The
problem with Fibro is that there are many who feel that it is a mental
disease even though there is enough evidence to prove it is real.
They look at me and think that I am faking for the meds or that I am
lazy and just don't want to work a job or around the house. Doctors
like my GE think that it is psychological as well which makes
treatment even harder for me. Insurance companies don't want to
accept that it is real so that they can turn down treatments.
I have gone off on another tangent...I do that often. Sorry. I just
get to talk to grown ups so little and have so few friends that when I
do get to talk I talk a LOT and about everything.
Thanks again,
Keep Moving Forward,
Jennie
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| User: "used2be" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
03 Jan 2008 08:02:52 PM |
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you've had a tough load, jennie...i'm so very sorry that you've had to
endure so much physical (and emotional) pain.
*hugs*
~cindy
<jennieandchris@gmail.com> wrote
Rose,
I have the same problem. I just spent 2 weeks in the hospital for
exactly that reason. I have never tried anything but the thoughts
that they would be better off without me, that thier lives would be
less of a problem without all of my crap going on. I thought that my
husband was ready to leave and I knew that I couldn't take care of the
kids without him or his help so I kept thinking that I would loose
them all. I fear that my inability to take care of everything that I
am supposed to will cost me them all. I still have that fear even
though during the hospital stay we had a meeting with Chris and I. We
talked about what was going on. I have to explain to him how bad the
pain is, what each of my conditions feel like and he cried. Then I
told him that I was scared that I was going to loose him and that he
was going to walk away. He promised me that he wasn't.
When I explained to him how I felt I had to break it down by condition
and what each one does to me on a daily basis. I have polycystic
ovaries which causes me to grow at least one cyst about once a week.
They feel like knives being shoved into my lower abdomen. I have
Interstitial Cystitis which feels like I have a bladder infection or a
UTI. I have sciatica which makes my legs go out from under me and
causes sharp pains that run from my lower back down my legs. I have
IBS which causes cramping and the fun alternating bowels. UG! I have
Fibromyalgia which on a good day I wake up feeling like I have the flu
with the muscle aches. On a flair day I wake up with swollen joints
and I have to lay in bed until I have worked my way up my body slowly
moving each muscle to get it looser. I walk on pins and needles and
all my muscles feel like they are on fire. I have chronic migraines
which always end up affecting my left eye. A few years ago I got
shingles in that eye and now when I get a migraine it hits that nerve
and there are sharp pains running through my eye, tearing it up and
going up my head and down my neck. That on top of the light
sensitivity and sound issues. By the time I was done telling him all
of this he was crying. The doctor then told him that his fears of my
becoming an addict are unfounded because the rate of addiction in
people with chronic pain is very low. She also told him that with all
of these things I needed to be on pain medication and that he and I
can hope that the doses go down as we deal with some of the fixable
issues but to expect me to be on them for life. It felt so good to be
able to tell him how I felt and to make him understand why I am on the
meds and why there are days when I can barely move or want to.
I am sorry, I went off on a tangent. As I was trying to say, I
totally understand what you mean by feeling that way about your
family. I think that this is the toughest part of depression to deal
with and get around.
You hit it on the nail Rose,
Jennie
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
04 Jan 2008 12:01:54 AM |
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|
On Jan 3, 7:02=A0pm, "used2be" <used...@nowhere.com> wrote:
you've had a tough load, jennie...i'm so very sorry that you've had to
endure so much physical (and emotional) pain.
*hugs*
~cindy
<jennieandch...@gmail.com> wrote
Rose,
I have the same problem. =A0I just spent 2 weeks in the hospital for
exactly that reason. =A0I have never tried anything but the thoughts
that they would be better off without me, that thier lives would be
less of a problem without all of my crap going on. =A0I thought that my
husband was ready to leave and I knew that I couldn't take care of the
kids without him or his help so I kept thinking that I would loose
them all. =A0I fear that my inability to take care of everything that I
am supposed to will cost me them all. =A0I still have that fear even
though during the hospital stay we had a meeting with Chris and I. =A0We
talked about what was going on. =A0I have to explain to him how bad the
pain is, what each of my conditions feel like and he cried. =A0Then I
told him that I was scared that I was going to loose him and that he
was going to walk away. =A0He promised me that he wasn't.
When I explained to him how I felt I had to break it down by condition
and what each one does to me on a daily basis. =A0I have polycystic
ovaries which causes me to grow at least one cyst about once a week.
They feel like knives being shoved into my lower abdomen. =A0I have
Interstitial Cystitis which feels like I have a bladder infection or a
UTI. =A0I have sciatica which makes my legs go out from under me and
causes sharp pains that run from my lower back down my legs. =A0I have
IBS which causes cramping and the fun alternating bowels. =A0UG! =A0I have=
Fibromyalgia which on a good day I wake up feeling like I have the flu
with the muscle aches. =A0On a flair day I wake up with swollen joints
and I have to lay in bed until I have worked my way up my body slowly
moving each muscle to get it looser. =A0I walk on pins and needles and
all my muscles feel like they are on fire. =A0I have chronic migraines
which always end up affecting my left eye. =A0A few years ago I got
shingles in that eye and now when I get a migraine it hits that nerve
and there are sharp pains running through my eye, tearing it up and
going up my head and down my neck. =A0That on top of the light
sensitivity and sound issues. =A0By the time I was done telling him all
of this he was crying. =A0The doctor then told him that his fears of my
becoming an addict are unfounded because the rate of addiction in
people with chronic pain is very low. =A0She also told him that with all
of these things I needed to be on pain medication and that he and I
can hope that the doses go down as we deal with some of the fixable
issues but to expect me to be on them for life. =A0It felt so good to be
able to tell him how I felt and to make him understand why I am on the
meds and why there are days when I can barely move or want to.
I am sorry, I went off on a tangent. =A0As I was trying to say, I
totally understand what you mean by feeling that way about your
family. =A0I think that this is the toughest part of depression to deal
with and get around.
You hit it on the nail Rose,
Jennie
Thanks, but even with the tough load I have to find ways to keep going
and focus on the good in my life. It isn't very easy but I try my
best. It is meeting people like the ones here and the support that I
get that makes me feel better too.
Jennie
.
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| User: "Nil" |
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| Title: Re: HOW LUCKY WE ALL ARE |
04 Jan 2008 01:40:51 AM |
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|
On Jan 3, 10:01 pm, "jennieandch...@gmail.com"
<jennieandch...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 3, 7:02 pm, "used2be" <used...@nowhere.com> wrote:
you've had a tough load, jennie...i'm so very sorry that you've had to
endure so much physical (and emotional) pain.
*hugs*
~cindy
<jennieandch...@gmail.com> wrote
Rose,
I have the same problem. I just spent 2 weeks in the hospital for
exactly that reason. I have never tried anything but the thoughts
that they would be better off without me, that thier lives would be
less of a problem without all of my crap going on. I thought that my
husband was ready to leave and I knew that I couldn't take care of the
kids without him or his help so I kept thinking that I would loose
them all. I fear that my inability to take care of everything that I
am supposed to will cost me them all. I still have that fear even
though during the hospital stay we had a meeting with Chris and I. We
talked about what was going on. I have to explain to him how bad the
pain is, what each of my conditions feel like and he cried. Then I
told him that I was scared that I was going to loose him and that he
was going to walk away. He promised me that he wasn't.
When I explained to him how I felt I had to break it down by condition
and what each one does to me on a daily basis. I have polycystic
ovaries which causes me to grow at least one cyst about once a week.
They feel like knives being shoved into my lower abdomen. I have
Interstitial Cystitis which feels like I have a bladder infection or a
UTI. I have sciatica which makes my legs go out from under me and
causes sharp pains that run from my lower back down my legs. I have
IBS which causes cramping and the fun alternating bowels. UG! I have
Fibromyalgia which on a good day I wake up feeling like I have the flu
with the muscle aches. On a flair day I wake up with swollen joints
and I have to lay in bed until I have worked my way up my body slowly
moving each muscle to get it looser. I walk on pins and needles and
all my muscles feel like they are on fire. I have chronic migraines
which always end up affecting my left eye. A few years ago I got
shingles in that eye and now when I get a migraine it hits that nerve
and there are sharp pains running through my eye, tearing it up and
going up my head and down my neck. That on top of the light
sensitivity and sound issues. By the time I was done telling him all
of this he was crying. The doctor then told him that his fears of my
becoming an addict are unfounded because the rate of addiction in
people with chronic pain is very low. She also told him that with all
of these things I needed to be on pain medication and that he and I
can hope that the doses go down as we deal with some of the fixable
issues but to expect me to be on them for life. It felt so good to be
able to tell him how I felt and to make him understand why I am on the
meds and why there are days when I can barely move or want to.
I am sorry, I went off on a tangent. As I was trying to say, I
totally understand what you mean by feeling that way about your
family. I think that this is the toughest part of depression to deal
with and get around.
You hit it on the nail Rose,
Jennie
Thanks, but even with the tough load I have to find ways to keep going
and focus on the good in my life. It isn't very easy but I try my
best. It is meeting people like the ones here and the support that I
get that makes me feel better too.
Jennie
Your a great woman! Although i am so lonely to hear about your
real situation. I am praying that you can make your life worth.
Trust him so much, be strong...don't lost your faith.
Nil
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