| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"wombn" |
| Date: |
13 Oct 2004 09:31:01 PM |
| Object: |
I call this one a draw (politics) |
AFAIC, they were both very persuasive.
I must say that I have a BIG problem with calling people over 18 y/o
"kids" as Kerry always does. If they are truly "kids", then they
should not have the right to drink alcohol, drive, marry, enlist in
the military, or be tried as adults.
Either way, Kerry should stop trying to use "kids" in an emotional
appeal to parents (especially in the military sense).
This is a black or white problem, IMO: Either 18 y/os are adults, or
they're not. If they are, Kerry must stop referring to them as
"kids". If they are not, we must stop allowing them to enlist in the
military or be tried as adults. Period.
Well even so, he came close to converting me on other topics, but not
quite close enough.
And yes, I realize this topic is an extremely minor one, compared to
others. However, it's the only I've had direct personal experience
with. So it's the only one I feel qualified in commenting on.
I'm still going to vote for Bush because he meets my values far more
often, but whoever wins, I think we'll do ok, either way.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet, somehow, I'm considered far right wing...
http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/questionnaire.pl?page=printable_graph&X=2.75&Y=0.46
This, otoh, is an extremist:
http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/questionnaire.pl?page=printable_graph&X=-8.62&Y=-7.64
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Deminimii" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
13 Oct 2004 10:17:25 PM |
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From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 7:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <70lrm0tr5klgtj2sp71t0bsfd0ul059us1@4ax.com>
Does Ron Regan's head bug you? Frankly, I find it unnerving. All those funny
little quirky movements. Creepy. And, his head is too small for his body. I
think of him as "raison head."
.
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
13 Oct 2004 11:49:45 PM |
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On 14 Oct 2004 03:17:25 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 7:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <70lrm0tr5klgtj2sp71t0bsfd0ul059us1@4ax.com>
Does Ron Regan's head bug you? Frankly, I find it unnerving. All those funny
little quirky movements. Creepy. And, his head is too small for his body. I
think of him as "raison head."
naw... He's the MC for the Eukanuba thingamabob. It's tough to hold
his head shape against him when he's so sympathetic towards dogs. :-)
wombn << easily manipulated by Bruno-the-Twit.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
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| User: "Deminimii" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 11:25:11 AM |
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Subject: Re: I call this one a draw (politics)
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 9:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <b91sm05g5h087a0oopljolmecdkbood71i@4ax.com>
On 14 Oct 2004 03:17:25 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 7:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <70lrm0tr5klgtj2sp71t0bsfd0ul059us1@4ax.com>
Does Ron Regan's head bug you? Frankly, I find it unnerving. All those funny
little quirky movements. Creepy. And, his head is too small for his body. I
think of him as "raison head."
naw... He's the MC for the Eukanuba thingamabob. It's tough to hold
his head shape against him when he's so sympathetic towards dogs. :-)
wombn << easily manipulated by Bruno-the-Twit.
But, it's creepy. It won't stop moving. And speaking of creeps:
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/us_elections/2004/10/mobilise_mo
bilise_mobilise.html
Nice to see our countrymen attack back.
.
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 02:29:06 PM |
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On 14 Oct 2004 16:25:11 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
Subject: Re: I call this one a draw (politics)
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 9:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <b91sm05g5h087a0oopljolmecdkbood71i@4ax.com>
On 14 Oct 2004 03:17:25 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 7:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <70lrm0tr5klgtj2sp71t0bsfd0ul059us1@4ax.com>
Does Ron Regan's head bug you? Frankly, I find it unnerving. All those funny
little quirky movements. Creepy. And, his head is too small for his body. I
think of him as "raison head."
naw... He's the MC for the Eukanuba thingamabob. It's tough to hold
his head shape against him when he's so sympathetic towards dogs. :-)
wombn << easily manipulated by Bruno-the-Twit.
But, it's creepy. It won't stop moving. And speaking of creeps:
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/us_elections/2004/10/mobilise_mo
bilise_mobilise.html
Nice to see our countrymen attack back.
You mean Stolen Honor?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
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| User: "Deminimii" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 04:23:32 PM |
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Subject: Re: I call this one a draw (politics)
From: wombn
Date: 10/14/2004 12:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <lrktm0t8d1sl2mk1h9c08fgv2g7kron7dm@4ax.com>
On 14 Oct 2004 16:25:11 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
Subject: Re: I call this one a draw (politics)
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 9:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <b91sm05g5h087a0oopljolmecdkbood71i@4ax.com>
On 14 Oct 2004 03:17:25 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 7:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <70lrm0tr5klgtj2sp71t0bsfd0ul059us1@4ax.com>
Does Ron Regan's head bug you? Frankly, I find it unnerving. All those
funny
little quirky movements. Creepy. And, his head is too small for his body.
I
think of him as "raison head."
naw... He's the MC for the Eukanuba thingamabob. It's tough to hold
his head shape against him when he's so sympathetic towards dogs. :-)
wombn << easily manipulated by Bruno-the-Twit.
But, it's creepy. It won't stop moving. And speaking of creeps:
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/us_elections/2004/10/mobilise_mo
bilise_mobilise.html
Nice to see our countrymen attack back.
You mean Stolen Honor?
No. My link was too long. Try this:
http://tinyurl.com/3rurb
I mean the article and the letters that follow.
.
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 07:06:32 PM |
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On 14 Oct 2004 21:23:32 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
Subject: Re: I call this one a draw (politics)
From: wombn
Date: 10/14/2004 12:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <lrktm0t8d1sl2mk1h9c08fgv2g7kron7dm@4ax.com>
On 14 Oct 2004 16:25:11 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
Subject: Re: I call this one a draw (politics)
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 9:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <b91sm05g5h087a0oopljolmecdkbood71i@4ax.com>
On 14 Oct 2004 03:17:25 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 7:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <70lrm0tr5klgtj2sp71t0bsfd0ul059us1@4ax.com>
Does Ron Regan's head bug you? Frankly, I find it unnerving. All those
funny
little quirky movements. Creepy. And, his head is too small for his body.
I
think of him as "raison head."
naw... He's the MC for the Eukanuba thingamabob. It's tough to hold
his head shape against him when he's so sympathetic towards dogs. :-)
wombn << easily manipulated by Bruno-the-Twit.
But, it's creepy. It won't stop moving. And speaking of creeps:
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/us_elections/2004/10/mobilise_mo
bilise_mobilise.html
Nice to see our countrymen attack back.
You mean Stolen Honor?
No. My link was too long. Try this:
http://tinyurl.com/3rurb
I mean the article and the letters that follow.
AH. That makes more sense now.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet, somehow, I'm considered far right wing...
http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/questionnaire.pl?page=printable_graph&X=2.75&Y=0.46
This, otoh, is an extremist:
http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/questionnaire.pl?page=printable_graph&X=-8.62&Y=-7.64
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
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| User: "Deminimii" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 07:32:46 PM |
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Subject: Re: I call this one a draw (politics)
From: wombn
Date: 10/14/2004 5:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <n35um0tcafku06st598g1a7opi8m43ii25@4ax.com>
On 14 Oct 2004 21:23:32 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
Subject: Re: I call this one a draw (politics)
From: wombn
Date: 10/14/2004 12:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <lrktm0t8d1sl2mk1h9c08fgv2g7kron7dm@4ax.com>
On 14 Oct 2004 16:25:11 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
Subject: Re: I call this one a draw (politics)
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 9:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <b91sm05g5h087a0oopljolmecdkbood71i@4ax.com>
On 14 Oct 2004 03:17:25 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 7:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <70lrm0tr5klgtj2sp71t0bsfd0ul059us1@4ax.com>
Does Ron Regan's head bug you? Frankly, I find it unnerving. All those
funny
little quirky movements. Creepy. And, his head is too small for his
body.
I
think of him as "raison head."
naw... He's the MC for the Eukanuba thingamabob. It's tough to hold
his head shape against him when he's so sympathetic towards dogs. :-)
wombn << easily manipulated by Bruno-the-Twit.
But, it's creepy. It won't stop moving. And speaking of creeps:
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/us_elections/2004/10/mobilise_mo
bilise_mobilise.html
Nice to see our countrymen attack back.
You mean Stolen Honor?
No. My link was too long. Try this:
http://tinyurl.com/3rurb
I mean the article and the letters that follow.
AH. That makes more sense now.
Have you looked at those letters? And read the comments about post 9/11? Show
this to Janithor. Bastards.
.
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 08:11:28 PM |
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On 15 Oct 2004 00:32:46 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
AH. That makes more sense now.
Have you looked at those letters?
Some of them. I didn't go all the way to the bottom though. Short
attention span.
And read the comments about post 9/11? Show
this to Janithor. Bastards.
I'll go back and look again.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet, somehow, I'm considered far right wing...
http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/questionnaire.pl?page=printable_graph&X=2.75&Y=0.46
This, otoh, is an extremist:
http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/questionnaire.pl?page=printable_graph&X=-8.62&Y=-7.64
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
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| User: "Deminimii" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
13 Oct 2004 09:47:44 PM |
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Subject: I call this one a draw (politics)
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 7:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <70lrm0tr5klgtj2sp71t0bsfd0ul059us1@4ax.com>
AFAIC, they were both very persuasive.
I must say that I have a BIG problem with calling people over 18 y/o
"kids" as Kerry always does. If they are truly "kids", then they
should not have the right to drink alcohol, drive, marry, enlist in
the military, or be tried as adults.
Then you wd have been aghast when his wife referred to our servicemen and women
as as "boys and girls" the other day.
.
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| User: "Alan Harding" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 07:15:17 AM |
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In message <20041013224744.04585.00001967@mb-m02.aol.com>, Deminimii
<deminimii@aol.com> writes
Subject: I call this one a draw (politics)
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 7:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <70lrm0tr5klgtj2sp71t0bsfd0ul059us1@4ax.com>
AFAIC, they were both very persuasive.
I must say that I have a BIG problem with calling people over 18 y/o
"kids" as Kerry always does. If they are truly "kids", then they
should not have the right to drink alcohol, drive, marry, enlist in
the military, or be tried as adults.
Then you wd have been aghast when his wife referred to our servicemen and women
as as "boys and girls" the other day.
It probably seems that way from her age. We have some police officers
who I'd swear should still be at school.
--
The opinions given above may be mine. They might also
just be what I feel like saying right now, okay?
.
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
13 Oct 2004 09:55:38 PM |
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On 14 Oct 2004 02:47:44 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
Subject: I call this one a draw (politics)
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 7:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <70lrm0tr5klgtj2sp71t0bsfd0ul059us1@4ax.com>
AFAIC, they were both very persuasive.
I must say that I have a BIG problem with calling people over 18 y/o
"kids" as Kerry always does. If they are truly "kids", then they
should not have the right to drink alcohol, drive, marry, enlist in
the military, or be tried as adults.
Then you wd have been aghast when his wife referred to our servicemen and women
as as "boys and girls" the other day.
most likely. I squirm every time I hear Kerry do that. Frankly, I
can't imagine anyone less suited for First Lady than Teresa Heinz.
But..... <gallic shrug> If she'll give up her 12% tax rate and not
take every deduction allowed to her (because of course she believes
she whould be paying more in taxes anyway), then I'll give her more of
my ear.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
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| User: "Deminimii" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
13 Oct 2004 10:13:05 PM |
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Subject: Re: I call this one a draw (politics)
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 7:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <3hqrm0lapgu5353ohansh2sg4997tn7t5v@4ax.com>
On 14 Oct 2004 02:47:44 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
Subject: I call this one a draw (politics)
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 7:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <70lrm0tr5klgtj2sp71t0bsfd0ul059us1@4ax.com>
AFAIC, they were both very persuasive.
I must say that I have a BIG problem with calling people over 18 y/o
"kids" as Kerry always does. If they are truly "kids", then they
should not have the right to drink alcohol, drive, marry, enlist in
the military, or be tried as adults.
Then you wd have been aghast when his wife referred to our servicemen and
women
as as "boys and girls" the other day.
most likely. I squirm every time I hear Kerry do that. Frankly, I
can't imagine anyone less suited for First Lady than Teresa Heinz.
But..... <gallic shrug> If she'll give up her 12% tax rate and not
take every deduction allowed to her (because of course she believes
she whould be paying more in taxes anyway), then I'll give her more of
my ear.
There's nothing like a billionairess lecturing you on greed.
.
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
13 Oct 2004 10:17:54 PM |
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On 14 Oct 2004 03:13:05 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
Subject: Re: I call this one a draw (politics)
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 7:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <3hqrm0lapgu5353ohansh2sg4997tn7t5v@4ax.com>
On 14 Oct 2004 02:47:44 GMT, (Deminimii) wrote:
Subject: I call this one a draw (politics)
From: wombn
Date: 10/13/2004 7:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <70lrm0tr5klgtj2sp71t0bsfd0ul059us1@4ax.com>
AFAIC, they were both very persuasive.
I must say that I have a BIG problem with calling people over 18 y/o
"kids" as Kerry always does. If they are truly "kids", then they
should not have the right to drink alcohol, drive, marry, enlist in
the military, or be tried as adults.
Then you wd have been aghast when his wife referred to our servicemen and
women
as as "boys and girls" the other day.
most likely. I squirm every time I hear Kerry do that. Frankly, I
can't imagine anyone less suited for First Lady than Teresa Heinz.
But..... <gallic shrug> If she'll give up her 12% tax rate and not
take every deduction allowed to her (because of course she believes
she whould be paying more in taxes anyway), then I'll give her more of
my ear.
There's nothing like a billionairess lecturing you on greed.
*snort!*
hear hear.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
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| User: "Alan Harding" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 01:32:39 AM |
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In message <70lrm0tr5klgtj2sp71t0bsfd0ul059us1@4ax.com>, wombn
<wombnhearmeroar@comcast.net> writes
I must say that I have a BIG problem with calling people over 18 y/o
"kids" as Kerry always does. If they are truly "kids", then they
should not have the right to drink alcohol, drive, marry, enlist in
the military, or be tried as adults.
Either way, Kerry should stop trying to use "kids" in an emotional
appeal to parents (especially in the military sense).
This is a black or white problem, IMO: Either 18 y/os are adults, or
they're not. If they are, Kerry must stop referring to them as
"kids". If they are not, we must stop allowing them to enlist in the
military or be tried as adults. Period.
To a parent, one's offspring are always children (=US kids). If he was
talking to the parents, it sounds like a reasonable word to use, doesn't
it?
My father's sisters were 'the girls' into their eighties.
--
The opinions given above may be mine. They might also
just be what I feel like saying right now, okay?
.
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| User: "Laura" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
13 Oct 2004 10:32:31 PM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 02:31:01 GMT, wombn <wombnhearmeroar@comcast.net>
wrote:
AFAIC, they were both very persuasive.
I must say that I have a BIG problem with calling people over 18 y/o
"kids" as Kerry always does. If they are truly "kids", then they
should not have the right to drink alcohol, drive, marry, enlist in
the military, or be tried as adults.
Either way, Kerry should stop trying to use "kids" in an emotional
appeal to parents (especially in the military sense).
This is a black or white problem, IMO: Either 18 y/os are adults, or
they're not. If they are, Kerry must stop referring to them as
"kids". If they are not, we must stop allowing them to enlist in the
military or be tried as adults. Period.
Thank you for this observation.
As the mother of a recently graduated Air*MAN*, I appreciate this.
My son made an informed decision on how to devote the next six years,
and possibly twenty or more years of his life.
He worked hard and jumped through a few hoops to get into the Air
Force. Contrary to what might be common belief, the young men and
women serving in the Armed Forces are not ignorant grunts who are
grasping at a last chance to find an occupation. That breed of
military member was systematically released from the service in the
early 1980's. In the 1970's the Army in particular was used as a
carrot by the courts. My brother was one of those men. A little
trouble with dwi and off he goes to do a two year stint with Uncle
Sam. During that time he was able to obtain his GED. Can't do *that*
anymore. In the early 80's the Army started weeding out the
under-educated.
These are not children getting into the military. These are people
who want to be there -- for whatever reason. You don't just go to the
recruiter, raise your right hand and hop on a bus anymore.
Particularly the Air Force and Navy. These are services that I have
the most knowledge of. *If* you pass the initial written exams, then
you get to try and make it through medical, physical and psychological
exams. *If* you make it through those and the back ground checks,
then you get to go through at least six weeks of Basic Training. If
they don't weed out the weak willed, weak bodied, or weak minded
there, they then go on to technical training in their particular
specialties. In my son's recent flight I think it was a five out of
twenty wash out rate. And his flight had a LOW wash out rate. And
that is the Air Force, which the Army & Marines will refer to as
"summer camp" compared to their training. My son's technical training
will take more than a year to complete.
Sorry. Didn't mean to pontificate. But refering to those men and
women -- many of whom ARE young as, boys & girls, kids, children, does
chafe some. Yes, they are our sons & daughters. Some are even
mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers. So are the people killed
every year here on American soil by crime, drunk drivers, crumbling
buildings, house hold toxins. How many young people were killed on
campuses over the past few years by meningitis, car accidents,
shootings, jealous lovers? I could go on and on. But I've probably
already put a few of you to sleep.
Thanks for letting me rant a little.
Laura
whose son just called a little while ago
.
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
13 Oct 2004 11:57:15 PM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 03:32:31 GMT, (Laura) wrote:
Thanks for letting me rant a little.
No problem.
I had my dad take me to talk to an Air Force recruiter 'waaaay back in
1980. I wanted to be a pilot-preferably a fighter pilot, but I'd do
cargo if women still weren't allowed to fight.
The recruiter said they were only taking about 16 women into their
fighter pilot program that year and I knew I couldn't compete in the
area of math, and I didn't want to do anything *but* be a pilot, so I
didn't join up.
I took my dad along because he'd been in the Army during the Korean
war and he would know better than me if there was any double-speak
going on.
Laura
whose son just called a little while ago
Tell him I appreciate what he's doing for me.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet, somehow, I'm considered far right wing...
http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/questionnaire.pl?page=printable_graph&X=2.75&Y=0.46
This, otoh, is an extremist:
http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/questionnaire.pl?page=printable_graph&X=-8.62&Y=-7.64
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
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| User: "John" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
13 Oct 2004 11:46:44 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"Laura" <lkd@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:416fecbf.21212675@news.verizon.net...
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 02:31:01 GMT, wombn <wombnhearmeroar@comcast.net>
wrote:
AFAIC, they were both very persuasive.
I must say that I have a BIG problem with calling people over 18 y/o
"kids" as Kerry always does. If they are truly "kids", then they
should not have the right to drink alcohol, drive, marry, enlist in
the military, or be tried as adults.
Either way, Kerry should stop trying to use "kids" in an emotional
appeal to parents (especially in the military sense).
This is a black or white problem, IMO: Either 18 y/os are adults, or
they're not. If they are, Kerry must stop referring to them as
"kids". If they are not, we must stop allowing them to enlist in the
military or be tried as adults. Period.
Thank you for this observation.
As the mother of a recently graduated Air*MAN*, I appreciate this.
My son made an informed decision on how to devote the next six years,
and possibly twenty or more years of his life.
He worked hard and jumped through a few hoops to get into the Air
Force. Contrary to what might be common belief, the young men and
women serving in the Armed Forces are not ignorant grunts who are
grasping at a last chance to find an occupation. That breed of
military member was systematically released from the service in the
early 1980's. In the 1970's the Army in particular was used as a
carrot by the courts. My brother was one of those men. A little
trouble with dwi and off he goes to do a two year stint with Uncle
Sam. During that time he was able to obtain his GED. Can't do *that*
anymore. In the early 80's the Army started weeding out the
under-educated.
These are not children getting into the military. These are people
who want to be there -- for whatever reason. You don't just go to the
recruiter, raise your right hand and hop on a bus anymore.
Particularly the Air Force and Navy. These are services that I have
the most knowledge of. *If* you pass the initial written exams, then
you get to try and make it through medical, physical and psychological
exams. *If* you make it through those and the back ground checks,
then you get to go through at least six weeks of Basic Training. If
they don't weed out the weak willed, weak bodied, or weak minded
there, they then go on to technical training in their particular
specialties. In my son's recent flight I think it was a five out of
twenty wash out rate. And his flight had a LOW wash out rate. And
that is the Air Force, which the Army & Marines will refer to as
"summer camp" compared to their training. My son's technical training
will take more than a year to complete.
Sorry. Didn't mean to pontificate. But refering to those men and
women -- many of whom ARE young as, boys & girls, kids, children, does
chafe some. Yes, they are our sons & daughters. Some are even
mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers. So are the people killed
every year here on American soil by crime, drunk drivers, crumbling
buildings, house hold toxins. How many young people were killed on
campuses over the past few years by meningitis, car accidents,
shootings, jealous lovers? I could go on and on. But I've probably
already put a few of you to sleep.
Thanks for letting me rant a little.
Laura
whose son just called a little while ago
I was still 19 when I joined the Army, several lifetimes ago, but in broadly
similar circumstances.
My best to you and your son.
.
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| User: "Flashfire" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 01:09:17 AM |
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John wrote:
I was still 19 when I joined the Army, several lifetimes ago, but in
broadly similar circumstances.
My best to you and your son.
Your reply reminded me of this Australian band Redgum. The song is called A
Walk in the Light Green or I was only 19
Mum and Dad and Denny saw the passing out parade at Puckapunyal
(It was long march from cadets).
The sixth battalion was the next to tour and it was me who drew the card.
We did Canungra, Shoalwater before we left.
And Townsville lined the footpath as we marched down to the quay.
This clipping from the paper shows us young and strong and clean.
And there's me in my slouch hat with my SLR and greens.
God help me, I was only nineteen.
From Vung Tau, riding Chinooks, to the dust at Nui Dat,
I'd been in and out of choppers now for months.
But we made our tents a home, V.B. and pinups on the lockers,
and an Asian orange sunset through the scrub.
And can you tell me, doctor, why I still can't get to sleep?
And night time's just a jungle dark and a barking M16?
And what's this rash that comes and goes, can you tell me what it means?
God help me, I was only nineteen.
A four week operation, when each step can mean your last one
on two legs, it was a war within yourself.
But you wouldn't let your mates down 'till they had you dusted off,
so you closed your eyes and thought about something else.
Then someone yelled out "Contact"', and the bloke behind me swore.
We hooked in there for hours, then a God almighty roar.
Frankie kicked a mine the day that mankind kicked the moon.
God help me, he was going home in June.
I can still see Frankie, drinking tinnies in the Grand Hotel
On a thirty-six hour rec. leave in Vung Tau.
And I can still hear Frankie, lying screaming in the jungle.
'Till the morphine came and killed the bloody row
And the Anzac legends didn't mention mud and blood and tears.
And stories that my father told me never seemed quite real
I caught some pieces in my back that I didn't even feel.
God help me, I was only nineteen.
And can you tell me, doctor, why I still can't get to sleep?
And why the Channel Seven chopper chills me to my feet?
And what's this rash that comes and goes, can you tell me what it means?
God help me, I was only nineteen.
--
Regards Lee
LIFE: A sexually transmitted disease with a 100% mortality rate.
.
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 01:29:42 AM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 16:09:17 +1000, "Flashfire"
<rambinin@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
And can you tell me, doctor, why I still can't get to sleep?
And why the Channel Seven chopper chills me to my feet?
And what's this rash that comes and goes, can you tell me what it means?
God help me, I was only nineteen.
:~~-(
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 12:00:19 AM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 04:46:44 GMT, "John" <jjdamato@hawaii.rr.com>
wrote:
I was still 19 when I joined the Army, several lifetimes ago, but in broadly
similar circumstances.
My best to you and your son.
and I appreciate what you did for me, too.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
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| User: "John" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 01:17:19 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"wombn" <wombnhearmeroar@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:pu1sm0hlpj3kae9voc16qgsgi5529us391@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 04:46:44 GMT, "John" <jjdamato@hawaii.rr.com>
wrote:
I was still 19 when I joined the Army, several lifetimes ago, but in
broadly
similar circumstances.
My best to you and your son.
and I appreciate what you did for me, too.
Thank you. And I appreciate you, kiddo.
.
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 01:34:20 AM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:17:19 GMT, "John" <jjdamato@hawaii.rr.com>
wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
"wombn" <wombnhearmeroar@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:pu1sm0hlpj3kae9voc16qgsgi5529us391@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 04:46:44 GMT, "John" <jjdamato@hawaii.rr.com>
wrote:
I was still 19 when I joined the Army, several lifetimes ago, but in
broadly
similar circumstances.
My best to you and your son.
and I appreciate what you did for me, too.
Thank you. And I appreciate you, kiddo.
feh. What have I done?? nothing.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
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| User: "Janithor" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 12:14:53 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
John wrote:
Thank you for this observation.
As the mother of a recently graduated Air*MAN*, I appreciate this.
My son made an informed decision on how to devote the next six years,
and possibly twenty or more years of his life.
He worked hard and jumped through a few hoops to get into the Air
Force. Contrary to what might be common belief, the young men and
women serving in the Armed Forces are not ignorant grunts who are
grasping at a last chance to find an occupation. That breed of
military member was systematically released from the service in the
early 1980's. In the 1970's the Army in particular was used as a
carrot by the courts. My brother was one of those men. A little
trouble with dwi and off he goes to do a two year stint with Uncle
Sam. During that time he was able to obtain his GED. Can't do *that*
anymore. In the early 80's the Army started weeding out the
under-educated.
These are not children getting into the military. These are people
who want to be there -- for whatever reason. You don't just go to the
recruiter, raise your right hand and hop on a bus anymore.
Particularly the Air Force and Navy. These are services that I have
the most knowledge of. *If* you pass the initial written exams, then
you get to try and make it through medical, physical and psychological
exams. *If* you make it through those and the back ground checks,
then you get to go through at least six weeks of Basic Training. If
they don't weed out the weak willed, weak bodied, or weak minded
there, they then go on to technical training in their particular
specialties. In my son's recent flight I think it was a five out of
twenty wash out rate. And his flight had a LOW wash out rate. And
that is the Air Force, which the Army & Marines will refer to as
"summer camp" compared to their training. My son's technical training
will take more than a year to complete.
Sorry. Didn't mean to pontificate. But refering to those men and
women -- many of whom ARE young as, boys & girls, kids, children, does
chafe some. Yes, they are our sons & daughters. Some are even
mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers. So are the people killed
every year here on American soil by crime, drunk drivers, crumbling
buildings, house hold toxins. How many young people were killed on
campuses over the past few years by meningitis, car accidents,
shootings, jealous lovers? I could go on and on. But I've probably
already put a few of you to sleep.
Thanks for letting me rant a little.
Laura
whose son just called a little while ago
I was still 19 when I joined the Army, several lifetimes ago, but in broadly
similar circumstances.
My best to you and your son.
Did you enlist? Weren't you in the infantry? What's the story, if you
don't mind talking about it?
.
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| User: "John" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 01:15:43 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"Janithor" <Janithor@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:416E0B4C.7020601@comcast.net...
x-no-archive: yes
John wrote:
Thank you for this observation.
As the mother of a recently graduated Air*MAN*, I appreciate this.
My son made an informed decision on how to devote the next six years,
and possibly twenty or more years of his life.
He worked hard and jumped through a few hoops to get into the Air
Force. Contrary to what might be common belief, the young men and
women serving in the Armed Forces are not ignorant grunts who are
grasping at a last chance to find an occupation. That breed of
military member was systematically released from the service in the
early 1980's. In the 1970's the Army in particular was used as a
carrot by the courts. My brother was one of those men. A little
trouble with dwi and off he goes to do a two year stint with Uncle
Sam. During that time he was able to obtain his GED. Can't do *that*
anymore. In the early 80's the Army started weeding out the
under-educated.
These are not children getting into the military. These are people
who want to be there -- for whatever reason. You don't just go to the
recruiter, raise your right hand and hop on a bus anymore.
Particularly the Air Force and Navy. These are services that I have
the most knowledge of. *If* you pass the initial written exams, then
you get to try and make it through medical, physical and psychological
exams. *If* you make it through those and the back ground checks,
then you get to go through at least six weeks of Basic Training. If
they don't weed out the weak willed, weak bodied, or weak minded
there, they then go on to technical training in their particular
specialties. In my son's recent flight I think it was a five out of
twenty wash out rate. And his flight had a LOW wash out rate. And
that is the Air Force, which the Army & Marines will refer to as
"summer camp" compared to their training. My son's technical training
will take more than a year to complete.
Sorry. Didn't mean to pontificate. But refering to those men and
women -- many of whom ARE young as, boys & girls, kids, children, does
chafe some. Yes, they are our sons & daughters. Some are even
mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers. So are the people killed
every year here on American soil by crime, drunk drivers, crumbling
buildings, house hold toxins. How many young people were killed on
campuses over the past few years by meningitis, car accidents,
shootings, jealous lovers? I could go on and on. But I've probably
already put a few of you to sleep.
Thanks for letting me rant a little.
Laura
whose son just called a little while ago
I was still 19 when I joined the Army, several lifetimes ago, but in
broadly
similar circumstances.
My best to you and your son.
Did you enlist? Weren't you in the infantry? What's the story, if you
don't mind talking about it?
Not much to it, Thor.
Parents divorced the summer before my senior year in high school. Father
took off to parts unknown for about ten years, mother remarried, and I was
on my own.
Couldn't get any help for college because my stepfather decided to claim me
as a dependent without my knowledge or permission. Got through the first
two years of college on a patchwork of loans and odd jobs, but then I ran
out of money and patience with the situation and joined the Army.
Always tested well, so when I had the opportunity to go to OCS, I took it.
It suited me, so I stayed in the infantry even though my placement in my OCS
class gave me a chance to do something else.
One thing led to another and I found myself leading an infantry platoon in
the Central Highlands just shy of my 22nd birthday.
The night before I landed in the field, I slept in a bunkbed in some housing
for junior officers at a large base camp. As I was going in, a black
officer was coming out. A first lieutenant. I had just made first
lieutenant, too. He asked me where I was going. I told him the unit, and
he started to laugh. I waited for him to stop, but he just kept laughing
and laughing. Finally, he got enough breath to tell me that that was where
he was coming from.
My men called me el tee. I was younger than many of them, and the unit--the
battalion, really--had a history of officers and NCOs being fragged. The
1st SGTs (each company had one, five companies to the battalion, plus a SGT
Major) were generally older, not suited to the heat and difficulties of
tramping through the jungle, and stayed in the rear. Most of them had
sandbags built up around their hooches. To protect them from their men, not
the VC.
It was a different war.
I liked the field and liked to stay there. I didn't like being on firebases
or the base camps. Too dangerous. The field reminded me of my boyhood
hiking the jebels and exploring the wadis of Amman, Jordan. Different
climate and terrain, but same general idea. Figure out where you are and
where you're going; make sure you have enough water and supplies to get
there; make sure you have security out. Don't do anything stupid.
It served us well. We saw some action, and always came out on top. We got
to be close, and learned things about each other that we'd never shared with
anyone else. It was gritty group. Nobody in my platoon died, until I was
relieved. Then, within a matter of days, two had died. I don't really
blame my replacement. It was my fault. I should have kept an eye on
things.
The next thing that stands out in my mind is the transition. There wasn't
one. One moment, I was in the field. The next, I was in an airport in
Atlanta, jet lagged and wondering what the ***** had just happened, with
these three other military guys in fresh uniforms giving me a look that made
me wonder whether they were poising themselves to say hello or to restrain
me.
They did neither. I got that reaction a lot after that. People would find
out that fact about me and get this agitated look that usually wouldn't lead
anywhere but to increased distance between themselves and me.
There ensued a number of years of bitterness. That's why I can relate to
Jamal.
Then there was anthropology, which taught me how to think about things, and
a group of second grade children, who gave me a reason to do it.
I had some success in that field, enough that I could have made a life out
of it, but I had this entrepreneurial thing happening with me.. I rode that
into law school and my business.
The most important three years of my life, though, were the ones that I
spent in the Army. That was the experience that made me who I am.
.
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 01:31:15 AM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:15:43 GMT, "John" <jjdamato@hawaii.rr.com>
wrote:
One thing led to another and I found myself leading an infantry platoon in
the Central Highlands just shy of my 22nd birthday.
omigod. 22.
I can't even imagine.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
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| User: "Alan Harding" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 07:49:21 AM |
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In message <997sm012o4jtitkmff6a156ppvim4hlr3n@4ax.com>, wombn
<wombnhearmeroar@comcast.net> writes
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:15:43 GMT, "John" <jjdamato@hawaii.rr.com>
wrote:
One thing led to another and I found myself leading an infantry platoon in
the Central Highlands just shy of my 22nd birthday.
omigod. 22.
I can't even imagine.
Most British subalterns in the First World War were about 18, some were
younger. They joined up from school, or left school to join up earlier,
lying about their age. If they survived (officer casualties were higher
than for 'other ranks' - they were the first target for the Germans)
they got promoted quickly. It was possible to become a major by 20 -
still a minor.
Luckily, no other war has got near to WW1. In spring 1918, they started
fighting in WW2 style, and Europe at least has never seen static killing
grounds like the Western Front ever since. Over a million men were
killed in the Battle of the Somme in 1916.
It's from another world, where men would complain, but still climbed out
of trenches and walked slowly into barbed wire and machine-gun fire.
People aren't brought up to do what they're told like that nowadays,
thankfully. They didn't even drop grenades into the officer's dugouts.
--
The opinions given above may be mine. They might also
just be what I feel like saying right now, okay?
.
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 01:34:02 AM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:15:43 GMT, "John" <jjdamato@hawaii.rr.com>
wrote:
The most important three years of my life, though, were the ones that I
spent in the Army. That was the experience that made me who I am.
so was that good, bad, indifferent, mixed?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
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| User: "John" |
|
| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 01:36:11 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"wombn" <wombnhearmeroar@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ae7sm05ee9una336l4noh31tn7qedl5pr0@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:15:43 GMT, "John" <jjdamato@hawaii.rr.com>
wrote:
The most important three years of my life, though, were the ones that I
spent in the Army. That was the experience that made me who I am.
so was that good, bad, indifferent, mixed?
I wouldn't trade it for the world.
.
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| User: "wombn" |
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| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 01:37:47 AM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:36:11 GMT, "John" <jjdamato@hawaii.rr.com>
wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
"wombn" <wombnhearmeroar@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ae7sm05ee9una336l4noh31tn7qedl5pr0@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:15:43 GMT, "John" <jjdamato@hawaii.rr.com>
wrote:
The most important three years of my life, though, were the ones that I
spent in the Army. That was the experience that made me who I am.
so was that good, bad, indifferent, mixed?
I wouldn't trade it for the world.
hm
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
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| User: "John" |
|
| Title: Re: I call this one a draw (politics) |
14 Oct 2004 01:39:40 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"wombn" <wombnhearmeroar@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hl7sm0lht1dkfl0lfep7hhq9nkugvadv5j@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:36:11 GMT, "John" <jjdamato@hawaii.rr.com>
wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
"wombn" <wombnhearmeroar@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ae7sm05ee9una336l4noh31tn7qedl5pr0@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:15:43 GMT, "John" <jjdamato@hawaii.rr.com>
wrote:
The most important three years of my life, though, were the ones that
I
spent in the Army. That was the experience that made me who I am.
so was that good, bad, indifferent, mixed?
I wouldn't trade it for the world.
hm
Once, somebody asked me how I thought of myself. I think they expected me
to choose between anthropologist and lawyer. At least, when I said that I
think of myself as a soldier, they were surprised.
.
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