Liberal Arts Education - major problems.


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Topic: Sociology > Depression
User: "No One"
Date: 22 Sep 2004 11:34:24 AM
Object: Liberal Arts Education - major problems.
I'm an accounting senior and i'll complete my degree requirements in
December. I plan to go into auditing or be a staff accountant, to start..
Throughout all of my years of college (2 at a community college, 1 at a 4
year school, 1 at another 2 year school, and then 2 at my current college)
I've got to say that the college system is poor. Why? General
education/liberal arts classes are required.
It should not take 4 years to have enough credits to have a bachelor's
degree, especially in business or accounting. Once I found out what i wanted
to do with my life (accounting), my accounting education can be summed up as
follows:
Principles of Accounting (2 classes)
Intermediate Accounting (2 classes)
Advanced Accounting (1 class)
Taxation (1 class)
Auditing (1 class)
Cost Accounting (1 class)
The only other classes I could rationalize being required would be a class
in public speaking, math, and possibly economics. I feel that after I
complete my degree, I will not be the best accountant I can be because so
much of my time is spent studying for other classes -- Religion & Politics,
Ethics in Computing, Spanish I & II. These things just do not matter, and a
liberal arts education system is producing people that don't know how to do
their jobs properly.
I, however, take the time to review all materials, read the book over and
over, and take accounting seriously. And I still don't feel that I know
enough, yet i'm paying $23,000 per year to go to this "name" school. I am
not as knowledgable in accounting as I could be because of liberal arts
educaton requirements.
I feel a liberal arts education is good for those people who want to go to
college for 4 years, major in something useless like art, and then go and be
a cashier somewhere. No wonder people are in huge debt.
.

User: "Paul A Thomas"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 02:42:48 PM
"No One" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote

The only other classes I could rationalize being required would be a class
in public speaking, math, and possibly economics.

A law class (or two), business and professional writing, and I'd suggest if
you are going to deal with people on a regular basis, a few classes in
psychology, sociology, marriage counseling, and the theory of relativity
would be helpful.

I feel that after I complete my degree, I will not be the
best accountant I can be because so much of my time
is spent studying for other classes

You won't be "the best" accountant for many years, so don't sweat it.

-- Religion & Politics,

In the south you need Football and Politics.

Ethics in Computing, Spanish I & II.

Spanish is a ~must~ in these parts.

These things just do not matter, and a liberal arts
education system is producing people that don't
know how to do their jobs properly.

The type of education has nothing to do with it.

I, however, take the time to review all materials, read the book over and
over, and take accounting seriously. And I still don't feel that I know
enough, yet i'm paying $23,000 per year to go to this "name" school. I am
not as knowledgable in accounting as I could be because of liberal arts
educaton requirements.

Those types of classes are required at most other school.

I feel a liberal arts education is good for those people who want to go to
college for 4 years, major in something useless like art, and then go and

be

a cashier somewhere. No wonder people are in huge debt.

With or without a college education, people have debt.
--
Paul A. Thomas, CPA
Athens, Georgia
taxman at negia.net
.

User: "Tippy"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 02:22:42 PM
"No One" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:QhmcnaCf-Lk7NMzcUSdV9g@ptd.net...

I'm an accounting senior and i'll complete my degree requirements in
December. I plan to go into auditing or be a staff accountant, to start..

Throughout all of my years of college (2 at a community college, 1 at a 4
year school, 1 at another 2 year school, and then 2 at my current college)
I've got to say that the college system is poor. Why? General
education/liberal arts classes are required.

It should not take 4 years to have enough credits to have a bachelor's
degree, especially in business or accounting. Once I found out what i

wanted

to do with my life (accounting), my accounting education can be summed up

as

follows:

Principles of Accounting (2 classes)
Intermediate Accounting (2 classes)
Advanced Accounting (1 class)
Taxation (1 class)
Auditing (1 class)
Cost Accounting (1 class)

The only other classes I could rationalize being required would be a class
in public speaking, math, and possibly economics. I feel that after I
complete my degree, I will not be the best accountant I can be because so
much of my time is spent studying for other classes -- Religion &

Politics,

Ethics in Computing, Spanish I & II. These things just do not matter, and

a

liberal arts education system is producing people that don't know how to

do

their jobs properly.

I, however, take the time to review all materials, read the book over and
over, and take accounting seriously. And I still don't feel that I know
enough, yet i'm paying $23,000 per year to go to this "name" school. I am
not as knowledgable in accounting as I could be because of liberal arts
educaton requirements.

I feel a liberal arts education is good for those people who want to go to
college for 4 years, major in something useless like art, and then go and

be

a cashier somewhere. No wonder people are in huge debt.

I noticed one poster said LA was helpful and the other said it wasn't. If
you want to go to a college and not a university, I'm sure you can get your
degree sooner. I once thought the way you do. I looked at the classes for
a LA school in Southern MD and shook my head thinking, "How will these
students succeed," or maybe "These kids must come from families so rich they
don't need to study professions."
I now run into some LA majors who are quite successful in the positions they
choose. I admit thinking that some are not the best qualified or able for
the position but others are outstanding performers.
Back to accountants/auditors.... Over time, those non business classes
will likely provide a return on your investment in work or at least in the
enjoyment of life. Nothing you listed would be on my don't take list.
Languages can become very important even if you don't become proficient. My
brother went to Thunderbird in AZ, a highly respected business school that
offers post grad degrees. Like in High School, he had difficulties with
Spanish. Ironically, Citibank, then the largest bank in the world, hired
him as an overseas auditor for South America. My brother was never sorry,
he just wished he had the talent for languages.
The ethics of computing may in fact be so closely related to your field that
I would be surprised if it didn't help you in passing the CPA ethics (open
book) or at least lead you to consider internal controls more thoroughly in
IT.
Religion and politics-- you never know where you might eventually aspire to
be. Maybe you will become a Mayor or other politician or just deal with
budgets and city councils or Congress. You might be a CFO for a
municipality that must take into account the politics and related religious
power bases.
Maybe your outlook needs to be broadened so you don't think of yourself as
just an aspiring junior accountant.
BTW, don't end your liberal arts education after graduation. You probably
"must" take qualifying CPE, but the LA broadens you as a person. Take
advantage! Wouldn't you hate to look back after a long career and not have
had the opportunity to appreciate the arts and humanities areas. Some
people never retire because they wouldn't know what to do with their time as
they never took the time to "smell the roses."
Tippy
.
User: "No One"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 02:38:17 PM
A liberal arts education is worthless. 2 semesters of spanish won't help
anybody be an auditor in south america.
Religion and Politics is another worthless class. We read terrible,
christian-slanted books and talk about them in a "circle." What's worse is
that many of these kids are Religion/Art majors. Upon graduation, they'll be
qualified to be cashiers and serve coffee. Luckily, i'm older, 27, and went
back to college to become an accountant, a real profession. So much time is
wasted in a liberal education that real skills don't develop properly. All
you basically have, or, all you're paying for, is the "name" of the college.
The place that I temp for (unrelated to my major) while I finish school has
three "art major" graduates as employees.
I am completely against a liberal arts education and simply went to this
particular college because of the "name," and vocational schools are frown
upon in society. If you want to master the game, you've got to play it.
However, the system is still terrible.
"Tippy" <ask.meingroup@coxnot.net> wrote in message
news:Sfk4d.72039$mu.652@okepread07...

"No One" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:QhmcnaCf-Lk7NMzcUSdV9g@ptd.net...

I'm an accounting senior and i'll complete my degree requirements in
December. I plan to go into auditing or be a staff accountant, to

start..


Throughout all of my years of college (2 at a community college, 1 at a

4

year school, 1 at another 2 year school, and then 2 at my current

college)

I've got to say that the college system is poor. Why? General
education/liberal arts classes are required.

It should not take 4 years to have enough credits to have a bachelor's
degree, especially in business or accounting. Once I found out what i

wanted

to do with my life (accounting), my accounting education can be summed

up

as

follows:

Principles of Accounting (2 classes)
Intermediate Accounting (2 classes)
Advanced Accounting (1 class)
Taxation (1 class)
Auditing (1 class)
Cost Accounting (1 class)

The only other classes I could rationalize being required would be a

class

in public speaking, math, and possibly economics. I feel that after I
complete my degree, I will not be the best accountant I can be because

so

much of my time is spent studying for other classes -- Religion &

Politics,

Ethics in Computing, Spanish I & II. These things just do not matter,

and

a

liberal arts education system is producing people that don't know how to

do

their jobs properly.

I, however, take the time to review all materials, read the book over

and

over, and take accounting seriously. And I still don't feel that I know
enough, yet i'm paying $23,000 per year to go to this "name" school. I

am

not as knowledgable in accounting as I could be because of liberal arts
educaton requirements.

I feel a liberal arts education is good for those people who want to go

to

college for 4 years, major in something useless like art, and then go

and

be

a cashier somewhere. No wonder people are in huge debt.



I noticed one poster said LA was helpful and the other said it wasn't. If
you want to go to a college and not a university, I'm sure you can get

your

degree sooner. I once thought the way you do. I looked at the classes

for

a LA school in Southern MD and shook my head thinking, "How will these
students succeed," or maybe "These kids must come from families so rich

they

don't need to study professions."

I now run into some LA majors who are quite successful in the positions

they

choose. I admit thinking that some are not the best qualified or able for
the position but others are outstanding performers.

Back to accountants/auditors.... Over time, those non business classes
will likely provide a return on your investment in work or at least in the
enjoyment of life. Nothing you listed would be on my don't take list.
Languages can become very important even if you don't become proficient.

My

brother went to Thunderbird in AZ, a highly respected business school that
offers post grad degrees. Like in High School, he had difficulties with
Spanish. Ironically, Citibank, then the largest bank in the world, hired
him as an overseas auditor for South America. My brother was never sorry,
he just wished he had the talent for languages.

The ethics of computing may in fact be so closely related to your field

that

I would be surprised if it didn't help you in passing the CPA ethics (open
book) or at least lead you to consider internal controls more thoroughly

in

IT.

Religion and politics-- you never know where you might eventually aspire

to

be. Maybe you will become a Mayor or other politician or just deal with
budgets and city councils or Congress. You might be a CFO for a
municipality that must take into account the politics and related

religious

power bases.

Maybe your outlook needs to be broadened so you don't think of yourself as
just an aspiring junior accountant.

BTW, don't end your liberal arts education after graduation. You probably
"must" take qualifying CPE, but the LA broadens you as a person. Take
advantage! Wouldn't you hate to look back after a long career and not

have

had the opportunity to appreciate the arts and humanities areas. Some
people never retire because they wouldn't know what to do with their time

as

they never took the time to "smell the roses."

Tippy


.
User: "Paul A Thomas"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 02:56:28 PM
"No One" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote

A liberal arts education is worthless. 2 semesters of spanish won't help
anybody be an auditor in south america.

And someone with a PhD in Spanish wouldn't make a good auditor either.

What's worse is that many of these kids are Religion/Art majors.
Upon graduation, they'll be qualified to be cashiers and serve coffee.

Probably after they get trained to be a cashier and serve coffee.

So much time is wasted in a liberal education that real skills don't

develop properly.
There are no real skills that you can develop in school. Everyone coming
out of school is "clunky" in whatever job they get, even if they got all
"A"'s in every class. Most everything you'll really use you'll get through
experiences and learning on the job. The real nut of this thing is, can you
learn? By that I mean, employers don't really expect you to know how their
firm does things. They'll teach you, if you can be taught, and you have
proven you can be taught from the grades you earned in school.

However, the system is still terrible.

And from past experiences, that "name" school will land you a cushy job one
day. *You'll be expected to talk politics and religion to the company's
biggest Spanish speaking client*. Hey, it's not all accounting you know.
--
Paul A. Thomas, CPA
Athens, Georgia
taxman at negia.net
.

User: "Velvet Elvis"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 02:53:50 PM

I am completely against a liberal arts education and simply went to this
particular college because of the "name," and vocational schools are frown
upon in society. If you want to master the game, you've got to play it.
However, the system is still terrible.

I was really ***** to find out that I couldn't study Plato in the
original ancient Greek at the university I attended. 100 years ago Greek
and Latin were a standard part of any higher education. IMHO, the idea of
education equating to career training is ruining higher education as an
institution. Keep the vocational training in the two year schools and quit
dumbing down the requirements for 4 year degrees.
I come from a family of liberal arts professors and will probably end up
being one myself if I ever get my head working right. I'm accordingly
biased.
--
MYTHOLOGY, n. The body of a primitive people's beliefs concerning its
origin, early history, heroes, deities and so forth, as distinguished from
the true accounts which it invents later.
-Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary.
.



User: "Mike"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 23 Sep 2004 09:38:34 PM
"No One" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message news:<QhmcnaCf-Lk7NMzcUSdV9g@ptd.net>...

I'm an accounting senior and i'll complete my degree requirements in
December. I plan to go into auditing or be a staff accountant, to start..

Throughout all of my years of college (2 at a community college, 1 at a 4
year school, 1 at another 2 year school, and then 2 at my current college)
I've got to say that the college system is poor. Why? General
education/liberal arts classes are required.

It should not take 4 years to have enough credits to have a bachelor's
degree, especially in business or accounting. Once I found out what i wanted
to do with my life (accounting), my accounting education can be summed up as
follows:

Principles of Accounting (2 classes)
Intermediate Accounting (2 classes)
Advanced Accounting (1 class)
Taxation (1 class)
Auditing (1 class)
Cost Accounting (1 class)

The only other classes I could rationalize being required would be a class
in public speaking, math, and possibly economics. I feel that after I
complete my degree, I will not be the best accountant I can be because so
much of my time is spent studying for other classes -- Religion & Politics,
Ethics in Computing, Spanish I & II. These things just do not matter, and a
liberal arts education system is producing people that don't know how to do
their jobs properly.

I, however, take the time to review all materials, read the book over and
over, and take accounting seriously. And I still don't feel that I know
enough, yet i'm paying $23,000 per year to go to this "name" school. I am
not as knowledgable in accounting as I could be because of liberal arts
educaton requirements.

I feel a liberal arts education is good for those people who want to go to
college for 4 years, major in something useless like art, and then go and be
a cashier somewhere. No wonder people are in huge debt.

College is a business. College programs are designed with the college
and the professors in mind, not the students. It doesn't matter that
many liberal arts courses are useless in the real world. The colleges
make the rules, and they have professors sitting around who need
something to do. So they tack on all these extra liberal arts courses
to all majors.
It would be fairly easy to put together a program to fully educate
someone to be an accountant in 18 months to 2 years maximum. Just look
at all the accounting certificate programs that have popped up that do
just that. The only catch is that you already have to have a 4 year
degree to get accepted into one of these programs.
Not all of these liberal arts courses are useless. Some of them you
should take seriously because they will help you. Take a couple
courses in writing. and take a course or two in public speaking. By
developing your writing and speaking skills you will stand out over
the many one-dimensional and boring accountants you will meet once you
get fully into the field.
Introductory psychology and sociology are also good courses to take.
.
User: "Contrarian"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 23 Sep 2004 11:47:11 PM
In alt.support.depression Mike <MrStrong65@hotmail.com> wrote:

"No One" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message news:<QhmcnaCf-Lk7NMzcUSdV9g@ptd.net>...

I'm an accounting senior and i'll complete my degree requirements in
December. I plan to go into auditing or be a staff accountant, to start..

College is a business.

Well, it is one divorced from the incentives typically associated
with true businesses. Thomas Sowell writes a lot on this, critiquing
the inflation of tuition, etc.
Once upon a time, before most of you were born, academia held
itself to _higher_ standards that businesses. Strange but true.
Not that there weren't scandals, waste and incompetents, but
the notion of applying business standards to schools would have
seemed nonsensical.

College programs are designed with the college
and the professors in mind, not the students.

This is too true.

It doesn't matter that
many liberal arts courses are useless in the real world. The colleges
make the rules, and they have professors sitting around who need
something to do. So they tack on all these extra liberal arts courses
to all majors.

While I am greatly devoted to _some_ liberal arts disciplines many
departments and programs (note I am not calling these disciplines)
are at best useless, sometimes openly fraudulent.
Once upon a time, before most of us were born, people really
appreciated the opportunity offered by "liberal arts" but
the _content_ was quite a bit different.

It would be fairly easy to put together a program to fully educate
someone to be an accountant in 18 months to 2 years maximum. Just look
at all the accounting certificate programs that have popped up that do
just that. The only catch is that you already have to have a 4 year
degree to get accepted into one of these programs.

Which is a disgrace, that these other places are doing a large
chunk of the 4 year degree school's job.

Not all of these liberal arts courses are useless. Some of them you
should take seriously because they will help you. Take a couple
courses in writing.

If you can find them. I'm not saying it is impossible. Good ones do exist,
I know someone who reported very favorably on a required writing course,
a returning older student in a science program with extensive (graduate
level) experience in a demanding liberal arts field who had no time
or patience for nonsense.

Introductory psychology and sociology are also good courses to take.

If you have good instructors. It's too easy for even decent
psych and soc profs to be focused more on their research. I
was unbelievably fortunate in both.
.


User: "Mike"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 23 Sep 2004 09:46:25 PM
"No One" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message news:<QhmcnaCf-Lk7NMzcUSdV9g@ptd.net>...

I'm an accounting senior and i'll complete my degree requirements in
December. I plan to go into auditing or be a staff accountant, to start..

Throughout all of my years of college (2 at a community college, 1 at a 4
year school, 1 at another 2 year school, and then 2 at my current college)
I've got to say that the college system is poor. Why? General
education/liberal arts classes are required.

It should not take 4 years to have enough credits to have a bachelor's
degree, especially in business or accounting. Once I found out what i wanted
to do with my life (accounting), my accounting education can be summed up as
follows:

Principles of Accounting (2 classes)
Intermediate Accounting (2 classes)
Advanced Accounting (1 class)
Taxation (1 class)
Auditing (1 class)
Cost Accounting (1 class)

The only other classes I could rationalize being required would be a class
in public speaking, math, and possibly economics. I feel that after I
complete my degree, I will not be the best accountant I can be because so
much of my time is spent studying for other classes -- Religion & Politics,
Ethics in Computing, Spanish I & II. These things just do not matter, and a
liberal arts education system is producing people that don't know how to do
their jobs properly.

I, however, take the time to review all materials, read the book over and
over, and take accounting seriously. And I still don't feel that I know
enough, yet i'm paying $23,000 per year to go to this "name" school. I am
not as knowledgable in accounting as I could be because of liberal arts
educaton requirements.

I feel a liberal arts education is good for those people who want to go to
college for 4 years, major in something useless like art, and then go and be
a cashier somewhere. No wonder people are in huge debt.

I found the thread but couldn't bring it to the front of the page.
Just do a search for "Weaknesses in my college accounting program" and
you will see it.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 24 Sep 2004 08:01:49 AM

I found the thread but couldn't bring it to the front of the page.
Just do a search for "Weaknesses in my college accounting program" and
you will see it.

I Googled your thread and here it is
http://tinyurl.com/6h3c6
Wow! That was one long discussion!
.

User: "Contrarian"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 23 Sep 2004 11:58:25 PM
In alt.support.depression Mike <MrStrong65@hotmail.com> wrote:

"No One" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message news:<QhmcnaCf-Lk7NMzcUSdV9g@ptd.net>...

I'm an accounting senior and i'll complete my degree requirements in
December. I plan to go into auditing or be a staff accountant, to start..

Mike:

I found the thread but couldn't bring it to the front of the page.
Just do a search for "Weaknesses in my college accounting program" and
you will see it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the front of the page." If you can
get the lead article in its "Original Format" you can cite it by
its article number. But the info you gave was quite adequate.
An excellent thread. Thank you. Can you give any examples
of the emphasis on theory versus practice?
Very interesting that accounting professors don't have to
practice. It seems to be a disaster when professors needn't
practice in the profession they teach, certainly it is
in the law (although many do).
One of the posters remarked that if the FTC had any supervision
over schools, there would be big changes. I also have thought
that programs such as accounting, nursing, etc. should be
required to provide stats on the placement of their graduates.
In NYS people who want to sell franchises (e.g. Fast Food Chains,
Exercise Centers, whatever) are (or were, I think they still are)
required to file a prospectus with the state, with financials
and some other info. It's not a majorly onerous requirement,
but it does tend to keep the fraudsters out.
Anyone here have any thoughts on what kind of disclosure
requirement one might impose on a university, or rather on
its departments?
.


User: "Mike"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 23 Sep 2004 09:42:20 PM
"No One" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message news:<QhmcnaCf-Lk7NMzcUSdV9g@ptd.net>...

I'm an accounting senior and i'll complete my degree requirements in
December. I plan to go into auditing or be a staff accountant, to start..

Throughout all of my years of college (2 at a community college, 1 at a 4
year school, 1 at another 2 year school, and then 2 at my current college)
I've got to say that the college system is poor. Why? General
education/liberal arts classes are required.

It should not take 4 years to have enough credits to have a bachelor's
degree, especially in business or accounting. Once I found out what i wanted
to do with my life (accounting), my accounting education can be summed up as
follows:

Principles of Accounting (2 classes)
Intermediate Accounting (2 classes)
Advanced Accounting (1 class)
Taxation (1 class)
Auditing (1 class)
Cost Accounting (1 class)

The only other classes I could rationalize being required would be a class
in public speaking, math, and possibly economics. I feel that after I
complete my degree, I will not be the best accountant I can be because so
much of my time is spent studying for other classes -- Religion & Politics,
Ethics in Computing, Spanish I & II. These things just do not matter, and a
liberal arts education system is producing people that don't know how to do
their jobs properly.

I, however, take the time to review all materials, read the book over and
over, and take accounting seriously. And I still don't feel that I know
enough, yet i'm paying $23,000 per year to go to this "name" school. I am
not as knowledgable in accounting as I could be because of liberal arts
educaton requirements.

I feel a liberal arts education is good for those people who want to go to
college for 4 years, major in something useless like art, and then go and be
a cashier somewhere. No wonder people are in huge debt.

I think you may find interesting a thread I did two years ago where I
talked about the weaknesses in my own college accounting program. I'll
find the thread, and bring it to the front page so you can see it.
.

User: "Preston Singleton"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 09:10:39 PM
I used to have similar views about college and wished that I could
take only the courses in accounting. Today, while I still don't
understand why anyone would major in LA, I can see the benefit in
taking courses outside of accounting. Believe it or not, they make
you a more well rounded, interesting person.
The accounting profession, as you will soon find out, is not the most
glamorous of professions. While I do enjoy my work, I also realize
that nobody likes to sit around and talk accounting all day. When I
go to lunch with the professionals that I work with, we don't sit
there and talk about accounting. We tend to talk about the more
interesting things in life.
You may interview with a public accounting firm soon. Not only will
they be interested in your accounting GPA, but they will also be
interested in your ability to communicate and relate to other people.
This is because within accounting firms, or really any type of
business, the accountants or auditors that communicate and relate to
others well are the ones that advance the quickest, not necessarily
the 4.0 in accounting types.
So make your LA classes an opportunity to develop the other side of
yourself. You may end up auditing a not-for-profit organization ran
by one of those LA types one day and you'll have to know how to relate
to them.
Preston Singleton, CPA
Austin, Texas
.

User: "OB"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 11:57:44 AM
I used to say the same thing when I was at school.
You will notice the benefits of those classes when you are out in the
business world.
When you see an article on wall street journal regarding some
political/religious issue in a specific country that has no evident direct
relationship with economy, accounting or finance and able to see that
issue's possible effects to the said country's economy and their
trade/economic relations with your country, then you will appreciate the
necessity of these basic courses.
Another example; you might have a Spanish speaking prospective client, which
you communicate only in English. A few flattering words in Spanish that you
may utter might have an effect on the first impression.
You probably can do all these without all the schooling you got but, many
people will not.
The school is trying to prepare you for day to day life. The rest is up to
you.
As for the education system; it could be argued for hours on different
issues.
"No One" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:QhmcnaCf-Lk7NMzcUSdV9g@ptd.net...

I'm an accounting senior and i'll complete my degree requirements in
December. I plan to go into auditing or be a staff accountant, to start..

Throughout all of my years of college (2 at a community college, 1 at a 4
year school, 1 at another 2 year school, and then 2 at my current college)
I've got to say that the college system is poor. Why? General
education/liberal arts classes are required.

It should not take 4 years to have enough credits to have a bachelor's
degree, especially in business or accounting. Once I found out what i

wanted

to do with my life (accounting), my accounting education can be summed up

as

follows:

Principles of Accounting (2 classes)
Intermediate Accounting (2 classes)
Advanced Accounting (1 class)
Taxation (1 class)
Auditing (1 class)
Cost Accounting (1 class)

The only other classes I could rationalize being required would be a class
in public speaking, math, and possibly economics. I feel that after I
complete my degree, I will not be the best accountant I can be because so
much of my time is spent studying for other classes -- Religion &

Politics,

Ethics in Computing, Spanish I & II. These things just do not matter, and

a

liberal arts education system is producing people that don't know how to

do

their jobs properly.

I, however, take the time to review all materials, read the book over and
over, and take accounting seriously. And I still don't feel that I know
enough, yet i'm paying $23,000 per year to go to this "name" school. I am
not as knowledgable in accounting as I could be because of liberal arts
educaton requirements.

I feel a liberal arts education is good for those people who want to go to
college for 4 years, major in something useless like art, and then go and

be

a cashier somewhere. No wonder people are in huge debt.





.
User: "DaKitty"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 02:24:04 PM
"OB" <nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cai4d.729$6X1.2048300@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...

I used to say the same thing when I was at school.

You will notice the benefits of those classes when you are out in the
business world.

When you see an article on wall street journal regarding some
political/religious issue in a specific country that has no evident direct
relationship with economy, accounting or finance and able to see that
issue's possible effects to the said country's economy and their
trade/economic relations with your country, then you will appreciate the
necessity of these basic courses.

Another example; you might have a Spanish speaking prospective client,

which

you communicate only in English. A few flattering words in Spanish that

you

may utter might have an effect on the first impression.

You probably can do all these without all the schooling you got but, many
people will not.
The school is trying to prepare you for day to day life. The rest is up

to

you.

so very true!
.

User: "No One"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 01:21:00 PM
I disagree. Two semesters of spanish and I don't know anything. I only
remember being terrified to sit in a circle and talk to people in a language
I had, and still have, no clue about.
I'd trade these two classes for two additional accounting classes anyday.
Accounting majors come out of college not fully understanding the basic
principles or how to compose financial statements. Diluted earnings per
share, accounting for pensions and leases, or the statement of cash flows?
Forget about it...
Liberal education is worthless.
"OB" <nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cai4d.729$6X1.2048300@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...

I used to say the same thing when I was at school.

You will notice the benefits of those classes when you are out in the
business world.

When you see an article on wall street journal regarding some
political/religious issue in a specific country that has no evident direct
relationship with economy, accounting or finance and able to see that
issue's possible effects to the said country's economy and their
trade/economic relations with your country, then you will appreciate the
necessity of these basic courses.

Another example; you might have a Spanish speaking prospective client,

which

you communicate only in English. A few flattering words in Spanish that

you

may utter might have an effect on the first impression.

You probably can do all these without all the schooling you got but, many
people will not.
The school is trying to prepare you for day to day life. The rest is up

to

you.

As for the education system; it could be argued for hours on different
issues.






"No One" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:QhmcnaCf-Lk7NMzcUSdV9g@ptd.net...

I'm an accounting senior and i'll complete my degree requirements in
December. I plan to go into auditing or be a staff accountant, to

start..


Throughout all of my years of college (2 at a community college, 1 at a

4

year school, 1 at another 2 year school, and then 2 at my current

college)

I've got to say that the college system is poor. Why? General
education/liberal arts classes are required.

It should not take 4 years to have enough credits to have a bachelor's
degree, especially in business or accounting. Once I found out what i

wanted

to do with my life (accounting), my accounting education can be summed

up

as

follows:

Principles of Accounting (2 classes)
Intermediate Accounting (2 classes)
Advanced Accounting (1 class)
Taxation (1 class)
Auditing (1 class)
Cost Accounting (1 class)

The only other classes I could rationalize being required would be a

class

in public speaking, math, and possibly economics. I feel that after I
complete my degree, I will not be the best accountant I can be because

so

much of my time is spent studying for other classes -- Religion &

Politics,

Ethics in Computing, Spanish I & II. These things just do not matter,

and

a

liberal arts education system is producing people that don't know how to

do

their jobs properly.

I, however, take the time to review all materials, read the book over

and

over, and take accounting seriously. And I still don't feel that I know
enough, yet i'm paying $23,000 per year to go to this "name" school. I

am

not as knowledgable in accounting as I could be because of liberal arts
educaton requirements.

I feel a liberal arts education is good for those people who want to go

to

college for 4 years, major in something useless like art, and then go

and

be

a cashier somewhere. No wonder people are in huge debt.







.
User: "Paul A Thomas"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 02:46:38 PM
"No One" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote

I'd trade these two classes for two additional accounting classes anyday.
Accounting majors come out of college not fully understanding the basic
principles or how to compose financial statements. Diluted earnings per
share, accounting for pensions and leases, or the statement of cash flows?
Forget about it...

Most of the things you learn in school you'll never ever see (exceptions for
the CPA exam) again. How many small, single owner businesses do you think
there are? And how many give a rats @$%^ about earnings per share (let
alone diluted eps)? Chances are strong that you'll either never cross up
with 90% of the things you were taught. Most of what you'll learn comes
from OJT (On the Job Training).
Get the degree, get a job, and keep learning.
--
Paul A. Thomas, CPA
Athens, Georgia
taxman at negia.net
.

User: "Velvet Elvis"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 02:55:57 PM
No One wrote:

I disagree. Two semesters of spanish and I don't know anything. I only
remember being terrified to sit in a circle and talk to people in a
language I had, and still have, no clue about.

FWIW, people with autistic spectrum disorders often have a hard time with
liberal arts classes. I'm beginning to suspect more and more that you fall
into this category.
--
MYTHOLOGY, n. The body of a primitive people's beliefs concerning its
origin, early history, heroes, deities and so forth, as distinguished from
the true accounts which it invents later.
-Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary.
.

User: "OB"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 02:12:19 PM
Sorry to hear that.. good luck. What's done is done...
"No One" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:7ZCdnSliwPQ8X8zcUSdV9g@ptd.net...

I disagree. Two semesters of spanish and I don't know anything. I only
remember being terrified to sit in a circle and talk to people in a

language

I had, and still have, no clue about.

I'd trade these two classes for two additional accounting classes anyday.
Accounting majors come out of college not fully understanding the basic
principles or how to compose financial statements. Diluted earnings per
share, accounting for pensions and leases, or the statement of cash flows?
Forget about it...

Liberal education is worthless.

"OB" <nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cai4d.729$6X1.2048300@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...

I used to say the same thing when I was at school.

You will notice the benefits of those classes when you are out in the
business world.

When you see an article on wall street journal regarding some
political/religious issue in a specific country that has no evident

direct

relationship with economy, accounting or finance and able to see that
issue's possible effects to the said country's economy and their
trade/economic relations with your country, then you will appreciate the
necessity of these basic courses.

Another example; you might have a Spanish speaking prospective client,

which

you communicate only in English. A few flattering words in Spanish that

you

may utter might have an effect on the first impression.

You probably can do all these without all the schooling you got but,

many

people will not.
The school is trying to prepare you for day to day life. The rest is up

to

you.

As for the education system; it could be argued for hours on different
issues.






"No One" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:QhmcnaCf-Lk7NMzcUSdV9g@ptd.net...

I'm an accounting senior and i'll complete my degree requirements in
December. I plan to go into auditing or be a staff accountant, to

start..


Throughout all of my years of college (2 at a community college, 1 at

a

4

year school, 1 at another 2 year school, and then 2 at my current

college)

I've got to say that the college system is poor. Why? General
education/liberal arts classes are required.

It should not take 4 years to have enough credits to have a bachelor's
degree, especially in business or accounting. Once I found out what i

wanted

to do with my life (accounting), my accounting education can be summed

up

as

follows:

Principles of Accounting (2 classes)
Intermediate Accounting (2 classes)
Advanced Accounting (1 class)
Taxation (1 class)
Auditing (1 class)
Cost Accounting (1 class)

The only other classes I could rationalize being required would be a

class

in public speaking, math, and possibly economics. I feel that after I
complete my degree, I will not be the best accountant I can be because

so

much of my time is spent studying for other classes -- Religion &

Politics,

Ethics in Computing, Spanish I & II. These things just do not matter,

and

a

liberal arts education system is producing people that don't know how

to

do

their jobs properly.

I, however, take the time to review all materials, read the book over

and

over, and take accounting seriously. And I still don't feel that I

know

enough, yet i'm paying $23,000 per year to go to this "name" school. I

am

not as knowledgable in accounting as I could be because of liberal

arts

educaton requirements.

I feel a liberal arts education is good for those people who want to

go

to

college for 4 years, major in something useless like art, and then go

and

be

a cashier somewhere. No wonder people are in huge debt.









.


User: "Contrarian"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 06:52:54 PM
In alt.support.depression OB <nospam@hotmail.com> wrote:

I used to say the same thing when I was at school.
You will notice the benefits of those classes when you are out in the
business world.

Maybe. Maybe not. I talk to many contemporary students and have
taken some recent classes at several institutions. It is entirely
possible that N.O. is right about the classes he has taken.
They might not be worth much intrinsically. I spent several hours
going over a political science assignment with one younger person,
and had to point out any number of flaws in logic and premises
with an assigned reading, written by some tenured profeesor, and
counseled my friend "don't point all of these, just some of them"
etc. etc. A one hour visit to the Queens Public library showed
that the writer in question had ignored several of the major
prior researchers. I had the benefit of prior discussion with
a coworker's brother who headed the Poly Sci Dept of an overseas
university, so I am certain I was right. I have simply
no idea why the teacher picked this bit of garbage to assign.
I've known persons teaching English composition who quail at
unusual words, i.e. words unknown to them, e.g. "ideation."
And worse, sometimes the professors are deliberately misleading their
charges:
Writers should be encouraged to make intentional errors
in standard form and usage. Attacking the demand for
standard English is the only way to end its oppression
of linguistic minorities and learning writers.
[An aside: one can parse that in a non-standard way, with
two verbs instead of one in the last clause, i.e. instead
of treating "learning" as a participle, regard it as a
verb. 1 'We want to end the oppression of linguistic
minorities' 2 'We want to learn writers' one presumes,
to 'learn them English' This no doubt would delight the
vandals who perpetrated this nonsense] back to the
quote now:
We belive this frontal assault is necessary for two
reasons: 1. it affords experienced writers, who can
choose or not to write standard English, a chance
to publicly demonstrate against its tryanny [sic]
Donald McAndrew and C. Mark Hurlbert, in the house organ
of the National Council of Teachers of English, quoted
on page 151 of John McWhorter's _Doing Our Own Thing :
the degradation of language and music, and why we should,
like care_ (2003)
I am utterly sick of such vandalism. I didn't
have to suffer through too much of it in elementary and
junior high school, and even less in college, but I quickly
re-considered taking education courses. I took an
ESL literacy training courses in local libraries, in the
course of which we were forbidden to teach the alphabet.
"These people are not _ready_ to use the catalog." This
was c. 1995. Some of the other would-be tutors had
poignant personal memories of failing exams and classes
after being similarly uninstructed.
I don't think N.O., or anyone else for that matter, would
be much improved by numerous fairly recent "schools" of
academic discourse, pomo, decons, etc either:
... a form of Althusserian theory that takes
structural totalites as theoretical objects
to one in which the insights into the contingent
to one in the insights into the contingent possiblity
of structure inaugurate a renewed conception of hegemony
as bound up with the contingent sites and strategies
of power...
Judith Butler, UC Berkely gender theorist, quoted on p. 242
of McWhorter. Professor McWhorter says, on p. 246:
But the fact remains that this kind of language renders
these people's work all but inaccessible to any but the
tiny elite who happen to want to become university
professors ... Before the 1970s the writing in articles
and books by academics was much less often so forbiddingly
opaque to the layman. The sad fact is that today, the
equivalent of books such as Richard Hofstadter's
_Anti-Intellectualism In American Life_ (1964) Carter
G. Woodson's _The Miseducation of the Negro_ (1933)
... would likely be written in prose so dense and so
keyed to academic culture that few beyond the ivory
tower could learn from them. ...
This even when the assumptions and scholarship of the
authors are sound, all the more so when they are not.
This can be done with mathematical appartus also, but
I don't have examples.
Finally there is "Political Correctness"
which people educated some years ago did not have to face.

Another example; you might have a Spanish speaking prospective client, which
you communicate only in English. A few flattering words in Spanish that you
may utter might have an effect on the first impression.

Whoo oooh. Very dubious.
I don't know whether Hispanophones are flattered by casual, imperfect
use of their tongue or not. This is a matter that varies widely
with language and cultures speaking (apparently) the same language.
With more work, Spanish _is_ useful for some; I know at least
two lawyers who have learned enough (one way or another, I'm not
sure how) to speak to clients in it, one of whom has no Spanish
speaking people in his family of origin.
I had the exact same impression of some three semesters of junior
high French. I was wrong, to this extent: during vacation in Quebec
later I was able to alert the son of the motel mgr. about the inadequate
state of the heating, although it may be that he feared that I wanted to
kindle a flame, who knows? So it wasn't useless. But the only people for
whom I can recommend an imperfect command of a second language are those
in anymedical field, who, it seems, aren't required to learn it. Instead,
we are importing most of our nurses from overseas because those in
charge of nursing education nowadays cannot be bothered to provide
their graduates with enough clinical skills to survive their probationary
period. "Nursing theory" is utter tripe. Again,
that is based on statements by former instructors, but in this
case I cannot name names.
So I cannot say that N.O. is wrong, and, much as I wish I could
assure him that in the future he will realize the worth of these
courses he despises now, I will not do so, because I am not sure
that he will. I personally have rarely, if ever done so about
any of my college courses. Time, experience, and independent
study have served generally to confirm my undergraduate assessment.
Those I thought bad or mediocre then (whether in conception or
execution) I still believe to be bad or mediocre, often on better
grounds. Those I thought to be good, I still value, and often
much more highly. Believe me, at the time I was quite grateful
for some classes I was able to take, notably the classics (Language
Dept) and logic (Philosophy Dept) as well as for the Anthropology
Chair who taught an introductory course in which he savagely
critiqued most of the theories, past and present in the field.
I can say that I do belive in some of the ideals of
a liberal education, and the benefits mentioned by a
prior poster are possible. I would argue in favor of
making opportunities for something beyond a "mere" technical
training, and even for imposing requirements for the same.
But unhappily I cannot assume that contemporary college
instructors share those ideals, so I will never assure anyone
that their studies will confer those benefits.
This is especially painful in the context of this thread,
because there is nothing I would wish for N.O. more than some
real life expansion of his conceptual scheme, an expansion
that indeed can occur in the right kind of class... contact
with other people with more experience and other learners.
Note that I said expansion, not correction. I recall one
of the logic professors obiter dicta to the effect that
people deserved some college courses as a remedy for high
school; I wish I could point to a remedy for college, because
many people deserve that now.
He can always read about the things he should have
been allowed to learn, but there is some truth in the position
that reading is not enough; I have become ever so much more
intelligent since I began going to various *LUG meetings
(NYLUG, NYLXS, in NYC)
For anyone who has persevered through this perhaps
overlengthy screed (I did not have the time to make it
shorter, as the quote goes) the orignal poster (N.O.)
raised, implicitly if not explicitly, a concern that
is on-topic in a.s.d.: the depressongenic potential
of various social pathologies. Denying the existence
of the pathology is not a great strategy; merely enduring
it is often inadvisable; avoiding it is often not feasible.
I seek here merely to note that the potential exists,
since I have little advice on how to defuse it, at least
not in this context.
A few bibliographic notes in conclusion. Despite
the above-mentioned standard reservation regarding
reading, I do unreservedly recommend reading, at least
worthwhile works. The McWhorter book I quoted has some
material of interest but I'd recommend Richard Mitchell's
books from years back on the ills of education first,
_The Leaning Tower of Babel_ is one title IIRC. He
styled himself "The Underground Grammarian" and this
was the title of his newsletter. Thomas Sowell's books
are good also. Someone mentioned the theory of relativity
somewhere in this thread. The best short introduction
to that is still IMO Lincoln Barnett's _The Universe and
Dr. Einstein_ Yes, there's great ferment in cosmological
circles, but you cannot appreciate the new without some
appreciation of Einstein. It is a short book too.
I am a fairly confirmed proponent of the language
requirement, despite N.O.'s dislike of it. I am actively
seeking to renew my own language studies, more with a
reading than speaking goal. I have to say though that
many modern language courses are rather insipid. Spanish
has immense resources, e.g. Gregorio Maranon's _ The
Liberal In the Looking Glass _ but these are rather
neglected. This is basically because the Spanish have
shall we say, certain difficulties in dealing with
the various ideologies that have afflicted them.
Finally, there's one book on language teaching that
I think anyone can read with profit, that in its modest
length has much to offer for anyone concerned with
teaching or learning any subject, whether one has much
interest in languages per se. It is Earl Stevick's
_ Memory, Meaning and Method _ It is invaluable for
his style of thought, far beyond his observations on
any given methodology.
.
User: "Velvet Elvis"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 07:41:49 PM
Contrarian wrote:

I am utterly sick of such vandalism. I didn't
have to suffer through too much of it in elementary and
junior high school, and even less in college, but I quickly
re-considered taking education courses. I took an
ESL literacy training courses in local libraries, in the
course of which we were forbidden to teach the alphabet.
"These people are not _ready_ to use the catalog." This
was c. 1995. Some of the other would-be tutors had
poignant personal memories of failing exams and classes
after being similarly uninstructed.

I don't think N.O., or anyone else for that matter, would
be much improved by numerous fairly recent "schools" of
academic discourse, pomo, decons, etc either:

The desire to declair all out-war on this kind of intelectual claptrap is
one of my primary motivations for seeking a graduate philosophy education.
It turns my stomach. I named my computer Sokal.


Judith Butler, UC Berkely gender theorist, quoted on p. 242
of McWhorter. Professor McWhorter says, on p. 246:

That's why I'm not going to grad school in CA. It's all pomoed out the *****.

But the fact remains that this kind of language renders
these people's work all but inaccessible to any but the
tiny elite who happen to want to become university
professors ... Before the 1970s the writing in articles
and books by academics was much less often so forbiddingly
opaque to the layman. The sad fact is that today, the
equivalent of books such as Richard Hofstadter's
_Anti-Intellectualism In American Life_ (1964) Carter
G. Woodson's _The Miseducation of the Negro_ (1933)
... would likely be written in prose so dense and so
keyed to academic culture that few beyond the ivory
tower could learn from them. ...

Not that Kant and Hegel are known for the lucidity of their prose.

So I cannot say that N.O. is wrong, and, much as I wish I could
assure him that in the future he will realize the worth of these
courses he despises now, I will not do so, because I am not sure
that he will. I personally have rarely, if ever done so about
any of my college courses. Time, experience, and independent
study have served generally to confirm my undergraduate assessment.
Those I thought bad or mediocre then (whether in conception or
execution) I still believe to be bad or mediocre, often on better
grounds. Those I thought to be good, I still value, and often
much more highly. Believe me, at the time I was quite grateful
for some classes I was able to take, notably the classics (Language
Dept) and logic (Philosophy Dept) as well as for the Anthropology
Chair who taught an introductory course in which he savagely
critiqued most of the theories, past and present in the field.

I ended up majoring in philosophy simply because it was the only subject in
which I took classes that I didn't consider *****. I know where you're
coming from here.
The problem really is that liberal arts classes are being dumbed down so
that they can be passed by people required to take them. The people forced
to take them don't give a damn about them, and the people who want to take
them have the quality of their education deminished.

This is especially painful in the context of this thread,
because there is nothing I would wish for N.O. more than some
real life expansion of his conceptual scheme, an expansion
that indeed can occur in the right kind of class... contact
with other people with more experience and other learners.
Note that I said expansion, not correction. I recall one
of the logic professors obiter dicta to the effect that
people deserved some college courses as a remedy for high
school; I wish I could point to a remedy for college, because
many people deserve that now.

Grad School?

For anyone who has persevered through this perhaps
overlengthy screed (I did not have the time to make it
shorter, as the quote goes) the orignal poster (N.O.)
raised, implicitly if not explicitly, a concern that
is on-topic in a.s.d.: the depressongenic potential
of various social pathologies. Denying the existence
of the pathology is not a great strategy; merely enduring
it is often inadvisable; avoiding it is often not feasible.
I seek here merely to note that the potential exists,
since I have little advice on how to defuse it, at least
not in this context.

Your post has shown me that Cymbalta is in fact helping my ADD. There is no
way I'd have been able to finish it otherwise.
Do you think anyone without an accedemic background can understand the
second half of this paragraph btw? "Social pathology" is at best a fuzzy
metaphor.

I am a fairly confirmed proponent of the language
requirement, despite N.O.'s dislike of it. I am actively
seeking to renew my own language studies, more with a
reading than speaking goal. I have to say though that
many modern language courses are rather insipid. Spanish
has immense resources, e.g. Gregorio Maranon's _ The
Liberal In the Looking Glass _ but these are rather
neglected. This is basically because the Spanish have
shall we say, certain difficulties in dealing with
the various ideologies that have afflicted them.

I always assumed that the language requirements for a BS were simply there
as "filter" classes. They weed out people who can't grasp basic linguistic
structures so thy can be sure that their degree program doesn't churn out
any true dullards.

--
MYTHOLOGY, n. The body of a primitive people's beliefs concerning its
origin, early history, heroes, deities and so forth, as distinguished from
the true accounts which it invents later.
-Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary.
.
User: "Contrarian"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 10:25:21 PM
In alt.support.depression Velvet Elvis <gamboltREMOVE@softhomthis.com> wrote:

Contrarian wrote:

I don't think N.O., or anyone else for that matter, would
be much improved by numerous fairly recent "schools" of
academic discourse, pomo, decons, etc either:


The desire to declair all out-war on this kind of intelectual claptrap is
one of my primary motivations for seeking a graduate philosophy education.
It turns my stomach. I named my computer Sokal.

;-)
Quoting McWhorter here:

The sad fact is that today, the
equivalent of books such as Richard Hofstadter's
_Anti-Intellectualism In American Life_ (1964)

I omitted to mention that I have read this and it is excellent.
One of my philosopy professors recommended it.

So I cannot say that N.O. is wrong, and, much as I wish I could
Chair who taught an introductory course in which he savagely
critiqued most of the theories, past and present in the field.

I ended up majoring in philosophy simply because it was the only subject in
which I took classes that I didn't consider *****. I know where you're
coming from here.

Philosophy courses taught me to be wary of concepts, and how to
examine them. Some instructors who are teaching now are using
the same approach as my professors, but no doubt there are many
who are anti-rational.

Note that I said expansion, not correction. I recall one
of the logic professors obiter dicta to the effect that
people deserved some college courses as a remedy for high
school; I wish I could point to a remedy for college, because
many people deserve that now.


Grad School?

No, I don't think so somehow.

For anyone who has persevered through this perhaps
overlengthy screed (I did not have the time to make it
shorter, as the quote goes) the orignal poster (N.O.)
raised, implicitly if not explicitly, a concern that
is on-topic in a.s.d.: the depressongenic potential
of various social pathologies. Denying the existence
of the pathology is not a great strategy; merely enduring
it is often inadvisable; avoiding it is often not feasible.
I seek here merely to note that the potential exists,
since I have little advice on how to defuse it, at least
not in this context.

Your post has shown me that Cymbalta is in fact helping my ADD. There is no
way I'd have been able to finish it otherwise.
Do you think anyone without an accedemic background can understand the
second half of this paragraph btw? "Social pathology" is at best a fuzzy
metaphor.

I am fairly sure I picked up "depressogenic" from professionals
writing about treating the condition.
My apologies for "social pathology" It is a fuzzy metaphor,
and deplorably jargonesque. Do you have any better suggestions? :-)

I am a fairly confirmed proponent of the language
requirement, despite N.O.'s dislike of it.

I always assumed that the language requirements for a BS were simply there
as "filter" classes. They weed out people who can't grasp basic linguistic
structures so thy can be sure that their degree program doesn't churn out
any true dullards.

No, the language requirement antedates any scientistic notions
of filtering or gatekeeping. I don't have time to discuss all
that is involved, but here's two quotations:
i. Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiss nichts von einer
eigenen.
ii. Apprehendre une langue, c'est vivre de nouveau.
These are copied from the Introduction to Frederick Wheelock's
_Latin_ text. He did not think it necessary to translate them.
i. Who knows no second language, knows not his own [native]
language.
ii. Comprehending a[nother] language is to live anew / is
a new life.
.
User: "% surfs@uniserve"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 10:29:30 PM
"Contrarian" <adrba@nyct.net> wrote in message news:Bmr4d.2815$Ae.488@newsread1.dllstx09.us.to.verio.net...

In alt.support.depression Velvet Elvis <gamboltREMOVE@softhomthis.com> wrote:

Contrarian wrote:


I don't think N.O., or anyone else for that matter, would
be much improved by numerous fairly recent "schools" of
academic discourse, pomo, decons, etc either:


The desire to declair all out-war on this kind of intelectual claptrap is
one of my primary motivations for seeking a graduate philosophy education.
It turns my stomach. I named my computer Sokal.


;-)

Quoting McWhorter here:

The sad fact is that today, the
equivalent of books such as Richard Hofstadter's
_Anti-Intellectualism In American Life_ (1964)


I omitted to mention that I have read this and it is excellent.
One of my philosopy professors recommended it.

So I cannot say that N.O. is wrong, and, much as I wish I could
Chair who taught an introductory course in which he savagely
critiqued most of the theories, past and present in the field.


I ended up majoring in philosophy simply because it was the only subject in
which I took classes that I didn't consider *****. I know where you're
coming from here.


Philosophy courses taught me to be wary of concepts, and how to
examine them. Some instructors who are teaching now are using
the same approach as my professors, but no doubt there are many
who are anti-rational.

Note that I said expansion, not correction. I recall one
of the logic professors obiter dicta to the effect that
people deserved some college courses as a remedy for high
school; I wish I could point to a remedy for college, because
many people deserve that now.


Grad School?


No, I don't think so somehow.

For anyone who has persevered through this perhaps
overlengthy screed (I did not have the time to make it
shorter, as the quote goes) the orignal poster (N.O.)
raised, implicitly if not explicitly, a concern that
is on-topic in a.s.d.: the depressongenic potential
of various social pathologies. Denying the existence
of the pathology is not a great strategy; merely enduring
it is often inadvisable; avoiding it is often not feasible.
I seek here merely to note that the potential exists,
since I have little advice on how to defuse it, at least
not in this context.


Your post has shown me that Cymbalta is in fact helping my ADD. There is no
way I'd have been able to finish it otherwise.


Do you think anyone without an accedemic background can understand the
second half of this paragraph btw? "Social pathology" is at best a fuzzy
metaphor.


I am fairly sure I picked up "depressogenic" from professionals
writing about treating the condition.

My apologies for "social pathology" It is a fuzzy metaphor,
and deplorably jargonesque. Do you have any better suggestions? :-)


I am a fairly confirmed proponent of the language
requirement, despite N.O.'s dislike of it.


I always assumed that the language requirements for a BS were simply there
as "filter" classes. They weed out people who can't grasp basic linguistic
structures so thy can be sure that their degree program doesn't churn out
any true dullards.



No, the language requirement antedates any scientistic notions
of filtering or gatekeeping. I don't have time to discuss all
that is involved, but here's two quotations:

i. Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiss nichts von einer
eigenen.

ii. Apprehendre une langue, c'est vivre de nouveau.

These are copied from the Introduction to Frederick Wheelock's
_Latin_ text. He did not think it necessary to translate them.

i. Who knows no second language, knows not his own [native]
language.

ii. Comprehending a[nother] language is to live anew / is
a new life.



i'm glad i got my diploma in adult psychology
its the only thing that really ahhh counts
.

User: "Tippy"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 23 Sep 2004 08:55:18 PM

I am fairly sure I picked up "depressogenic" from professionals
writing about treating the condition.

My apologies for "social pathology" It is a fuzzy metaphor,
and deplorably jargonesque. Do you have any better suggestions? :-)

Did you every meet someone who was so intelligent, so educated, and so
esoteric-- that he was absolutely useless to himself and society as whole.
;-) I remember a Navy Lieutenant (with degrees in everything) that was
described that way by a very perceptive boss.
.
User: "Contrarian"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 24 Sep 2004 12:08:55 AM
In alt.support.depression Tippy <ask.meingroup@coxnot.net> wrote:

I am fairly sure I picked up "depressogenic" from professionals
writing about treating the condition.
My apologies for "social pathology" It is a fuzzy metaphor,
and deplorably jargonesque. Do you have any better suggestions? :-)

I reiterate, I concur with the criticism. This was a USENET post
not a thesis, I haven't come up with a better term.

Did you every meet someone who was so intelligent, so educated, and so
esoteric-- that he was absolutely useless to himself and society as whole.
;-) I remember a Navy Lieutenant (with degrees in everything) that was
described that way by a very perceptive boss.

Degrees in _everything_ I envy him, useless or not.
.






User: "Velvet Elvis"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 02:48:17 PM
No One wrote:

I'm an accounting senior and i'll complete my degree requirements in
December. I plan to go into auditing or be a staff accountant, to start..

Throughout all of my years of college (2 at a community college, 1 at a 4
year school, 1 at another 2 year school, and then 2 at my current college)
I've got to say that the college system is poor. Why? General
education/liberal arts classes are required.

How does this harm liberal arts majors?
Seriously, the ability to think and communicate clearly is an asset in any
job, and that's what liberal arts teach. We philosophy majors have a stock
response to the question "What can you do with that degree?" We respond,
"the same thing as you, only better." Once you understand all the "why's,"
any set of "what's" fall into place much easier.
--
MYTHOLOGY, n. The body of a primitive people's beliefs concerning its
origin, early history, heroes, deities and so forth, as distinguished from
the true accounts which it invents later.
-Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary.
.

User: "Lisa"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 06:52:13 PM
Sounds like you could have spent the time in those classes you thought were
worthless making connections & practicing your social skills.
A liberal arts degree is only meant to show prospective employers that you
can play the game long-term and know how to access information on different
topics from credible sources. You do not exist (nor will you work in) a
vacuum. I think religion and philosophy classes are important for honing
your capacity for abstract thought & understanding other cultures. If you
feel unprepared to become an accountant after graduation, perhaps you should
take more classes. You could even learn on the job.
And nobody forced you to go to a "name brand" school for 23,000/year.
.

User: "Janithor"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 02:59:34 PM
x-no-archive: yes
No One wrote:

I'm an accounting senior and i'll complete my degree requirements in
December. I plan to go into auditing or be a staff accountant, to start..

Throughout all of my years of college (2 at a community college, 1 at a 4
year school, 1 at another 2 year school, and then 2 at my current college)
I've got to say that the college system is poor. Why? General
education/liberal arts classes are required.

It should not take 4 years to have enough credits to have a bachelor's
degree, especially in business or accounting. Once I found out what i wanted
to do with my life (accounting), my accounting education can be summed up as
follows:

Principles of Accounting (2 classes)
Intermediate Accounting (2 classes)
Advanced Accounting (1 class)
Taxation (1 class)
Auditing (1 class)
Cost Accounting (1 class)

The only other classes I could rationalize being required would be a class
in public speaking, math, and possibly economics. I feel that after I
complete my degree, I will not be the best accountant I can be because so
much of my time is spent studying for other classes -- Religion & Politics,
Ethics in Computing, Spanish I & II. These things just do not matter, and a
liberal arts education system is producing people that don't know how to do
their jobs properly.

I, however, take the time to review all materials, read the book over and
over, and take accounting seriously. And I still don't feel that I know
enough, yet i'm paying $23,000 per year to go to this "name" school. I am
not as knowledgable in accounting as I could be because of liberal arts
educaton requirements.

I feel a liberal arts education is good for those people who want to go to
college for 4 years, major in something useless like art, and then go and be
a cashier somewhere. No wonder people are in huge debt.

The most important class I ever took was Logic, at a dumpy local
community college. I also bought a book to an intro philosophy class
that I didn't take, and this book was extremely valuable in helping me
learn how to think. This has helped me in my own personal life, I'm not
the miserable wretch I used to be, because I am better able to think
things through on my own and understand the world around me.
The way you're going now, you're going to be like a friend described to
me long ago - one of those geeky accountants driving around in his
Porsche. But you're still not going to be happy, I'm betting.
I do agree with you though that a liberal arts degree does ***** to help
prepare you for the real world in terms of employment. I struggled for
a long time trying to find my way, esp. since I was so fucked socially
and had such a pathetic GPA. So I think you're wise to get a degree in
something like accounting to give you a quick jumpstart. But you'll
need more than money to solve your problems.
.
User: "No One"

Title: Re: Liberal Arts Education - major problems. 22 Sep 2004 08:28:54 PM
I think money will solve all of my major problems. Actually, I know it will,
because all of my problems revolve around money. Low self esteem? You need
money. Don't have a woman? You need money. Can't pay your bills? You need
money. Don't have money? You need money. Anyone that tells you money isn't a