It is something I have talked about often so finally I have
decided to write a post on it.
My childhood wasn't great. It was dangerous and full of trials
and tribulations. My mind evolved through that to ascertain some
survival techniques that met both the physical and emotional
requirements I had at the time. It has stayed with me and
solidified to a state of belief.
I needed to be loved and love. I needed to be liked and to like
others. I had needs. I managed to, more or less, get those needs
met. How that happened is what I'm writing about.
To get emotional requirements filled means trusting. Trust from
yourself, and as I discovered more importantly, trusting others.
Trust is such an odd indefinable thing. We so often have our
trust shattered and the weakest never survive that and are
destined to cynical unsatisfying lives. The stronger learn to
modify and further modify trust till there are a few left around
them that enable them to still believe in human nature. To still
have sensitivity to others. To still love and be loved.
I have evolved a little differently it seems. I have evolved an
incredibly sensitive understanding of other people's needs. The
latest evolution is realizing I use need as trust. I have
replaced one with the other and it seems to work quite well.
Trust to me means knowing what someone will do based on their
needs. Understanding that need means being brutally honest on the
inside while being deceptive on the outside. Detective work is
about illusions cleverly created to bring out the truth from
others. Understanding other people's needs is about really
defining what is their truth. To do that requires a certain level
of deception, just ask any police and they will tell you I am
right. Deception is fine if you understand what it really is and
that we all deceive to one degree or another.
Lying for personal gain will get you nowhere in the long run.
Being deceptive to expose truth is much more easily accepted. It
is using human nature for the good of all not necessarily because
you want something. Everybody learns by being tripped up in a
game of deception, everybody. It is acceptable.
I have barely scratched the surface of this subject but already
my post is way too long. I trust need. That is the one thing you
*can* trust if you are able to truly ascertain what people's
needs really are.
GlennT
.
|
|
| User: "audrey in velvet" |
|
| Title: Re: Need |
08 Feb 2005 06:18:16 PM |
|
|
On 8/2/05 9:58 am, in article 230Od.16097$mo2.1266731@news.xtra.co.nz,
"GlennT" <askme@noname.com> wrote:
It is something I have talked about often so finally I have
decided to write a post on it.
My childhood wasn't great. It was dangerous and full of trials
and tribulations. My mind evolved through that to ascertain some
survival techniques that met both the physical and emotional
requirements I had at the time. It has stayed with me and
solidified to a state of belief.
I needed to be loved and love. I needed to be liked and to like
others. I had needs. I managed to, more or less, get those needs
met. How that happened is what I'm writing about.
To get emotional requirements filled means trusting. Trust from
yourself, and as I discovered more importantly, trusting others.
Trust is such an odd indefinable thing. We so often have our
trust shattered and the weakest never survive that and are
destined to cynical unsatisfying lives. The stronger learn to
modify and further modify trust till there are a few left around
them that enable them to still believe in human nature. To still
have sensitivity to others. To still love and be loved.
I have evolved a little differently it seems. I have evolved an
incredibly sensitive understanding of other people's needs. The
latest evolution is realizing I use need as trust. I have
replaced one with the other and it seems to work quite well.
Trust to me means knowing what someone will do based on their
needs. Understanding that need means being brutally honest on the
inside while being deceptive on the outside. Detective work is
about illusions cleverly created to bring out the truth from
others. Understanding other people's needs is about really
defining what is their truth. To do that requires a certain level
of deception, just ask any police and they will tell you I am
right. Deception is fine if you understand what it really is and
that we all deceive to one degree or another.
Lying for personal gain will get you nowhere in the long run.
Being deceptive to expose truth is much more easily accepted. It
is using human nature for the good of all not necessarily because
you want something. Everybody learns by being tripped up in a
game of deception, everybody. It is acceptable.
I have barely scratched the surface of this subject but already
my post is way too long. I trust need. That is the one thing you
*can* trust if you are able to truly ascertain what people's
needs really are.
GlennT
i think though that there is a difference between *need* as a primary
condition for survival as opposed to *needy* those individuals whose primary
sense of self is dependant on other people's external validation.
i think its perfectly natural to need other people as long as it is
symbiotic...however i wonder though if perhaps the need you are describing
is more about being in harmony with oneself and others as opposed to the
neurotic obsessive neediness that one has become all too familiar with in
the days of pop psychologists who often misquote freud in order to justify
their lack of true *need* but of a *selfish want*
it seems to me that you are not really making a commentary or disclosure on
the latter.
audrey
.
|
|
|
| User: "% surfs@uniserve" |
|
| Title: Re: Need |
08 Feb 2005 06:18:34 PM |
|
|
"audrey in velvet" <lindauermadness@mydotcomaddress.com> wrote in message
news:BE2F0748.A401%lindauermadness@mydotcomaddress.com...
: On 8/2/05 9:58 am, in article 230Od.16097$mo2.1266731@news.xtra.co.nz,
: "GlennT" <askme@noname.com> wrote:
:
: >
: > It is something I have talked about often so finally I have
: > decided to write a post on it.
: >
: > My childhood wasn't great. It was dangerous and full of trials
: > and tribulations. My mind evolved through that to ascertain some
: > survival techniques that met both the physical and emotional
: > requirements I had at the time. It has stayed with me and
: > solidified to a state of belief.
: >
: > I needed to be loved and love. I needed to be liked and to like
: > others. I had needs. I managed to, more or less, get those needs
: > met. How that happened is what I'm writing about.
: >
: > To get emotional requirements filled means trusting. Trust from
: > yourself, and as I discovered more importantly, trusting others.
: >
: > Trust is such an odd indefinable thing. We so often have our
: > trust shattered and the weakest never survive that and are
: > destined to cynical unsatisfying lives. The stronger learn to
: > modify and further modify trust till there are a few left around
: > them that enable them to still believe in human nature. To still
: > have sensitivity to others. To still love and be loved.
: >
: > I have evolved a little differently it seems. I have evolved an
: > incredibly sensitive understanding of other people's needs. The
: > latest evolution is realizing I use need as trust. I have
: > replaced one with the other and it seems to work quite well.
: >
: > Trust to me means knowing what someone will do based on their
: > needs. Understanding that need means being brutally honest on the
: > inside while being deceptive on the outside. Detective work is
: > about illusions cleverly created to bring out the truth from
: > others. Understanding other people's needs is about really
: > defining what is their truth. To do that requires a certain level
: > of deception, just ask any police and they will tell you I am
: > right. Deception is fine if you understand what it really is and
: > that we all deceive to one degree or another.
: >
: > Lying for personal gain will get you nowhere in the long run.
: > Being deceptive to expose truth is much more easily accepted. It
: > is using human nature for the good of all not necessarily because
: > you want something. Everybody learns by being tripped up in a
: > game of deception, everybody. It is acceptable.
: >
: > I have barely scratched the surface of this subject but already
: > my post is way too long. I trust need. That is the one thing you
: > *can* trust if you are able to truly ascertain what people's
: > needs really are.
: >
: > GlennT
:
:
: i think though that there is a difference between *need* as a primary
: condition for survival as opposed to *needy* those individuals whose primary
: sense of self is dependant on other people's external validation.
:
: i think its perfectly natural to need other people as long as it is
: symbiotic...however i wonder though if perhaps the need you are describing
: is more about being in harmony with oneself and others as opposed to the
: neurotic obsessive neediness that one has become all too familiar with in
: the days of pop psychologists who often misquote freud in order to justify
: their lack of true *need* but of a *selfish want*
:
: it seems to me that you are not really making a commentary or disclosure on
: the latter.
:
: audrey
:
don't close the ladder until i step off it
.
|
|
|
| User: "audrey in velvet" |
|
| Title: Re: Need |
08 Feb 2005 06:23:32 PM |
|
|
On 9/2/05 12:18 am, in article 110ill6ci62q6d3@corp.supernews.com, "%"
<surfs@uniserve> wrote:
"audrey in velvet" <lindauermadness@mydotcomaddress.com> wrote in message
news:BE2F0748.A401%lindauermadness@mydotcomaddress.com...
: On 8/2/05 9:58 am, in article 230Od.16097$mo2.1266731@news.xtra.co.nz,
: "GlennT" <askme@noname.com> wrote:
:
: >
: > It is something I have talked about often so finally I have
: > decided to write a post on it.
: >
: > My childhood wasn't great. It was dangerous and full of trials
: > and tribulations. My mind evolved through that to ascertain some
: > survival techniques that met both the physical and emotional
: > requirements I had at the time. It has stayed with me and
: > solidified to a state of belief.
: >
: > I needed to be loved and love. I needed to be liked and to like
: > others. I had needs. I managed to, more or less, get those needs
: > met. How that happened is what I'm writing about.
: >
: > To get emotional requirements filled means trusting. Trust from
: > yourself, and as I discovered more importantly, trusting others.
: >
: > Trust is such an odd indefinable thing. We so often have our
: > trust shattered and the weakest never survive that and are
: > destined to cynical unsatisfying lives. The stronger learn to
: > modify and further modify trust till there are a few left around
: > them that enable them to still believe in human nature. To still
: > have sensitivity to others. To still love and be loved.
: >
: > I have evolved a little differently it seems. I have evolved an
: > incredibly sensitive understanding of other people's needs. The
: > latest evolution is realizing I use need as trust. I have
: > replaced one with the other and it seems to work quite well.
: >
: > Trust to me means knowing what someone will do based on their
: > needs. Understanding that need means being brutally honest on the
: > inside while being deceptive on the outside. Detective work is
: > about illusions cleverly created to bring out the truth from
: > others. Understanding other people's needs is about really
: > defining what is their truth. To do that requires a certain level
: > of deception, just ask any police and they will tell you I am
: > right. Deception is fine if you understand what it really is and
: > that we all deceive to one degree or another.
: >
: > Lying for personal gain will get you nowhere in the long run.
: > Being deceptive to expose truth is much more easily accepted. It
: > is using human nature for the good of all not necessarily because
: > you want something. Everybody learns by being tripped up in a
: > game of deception, everybody. It is acceptable.
: >
: > I have barely scratched the surface of this subject but already
: > my post is way too long. I trust need. That is the one thing you
: > *can* trust if you are able to truly ascertain what people's
: > needs really are.
: >
: > GlennT
:
:
: i think though that there is a difference between *need* as a primary
: condition for survival as opposed to *needy* those individuals whose primary
: sense of self is dependant on other people's external validation.
:
: i think its perfectly natural to need other people as long as it is
: symbiotic...however i wonder though if perhaps the need you are describing
: is more about being in harmony with oneself and others as opposed to the
: neurotic obsessive neediness that one has become all too familiar with in
: the days of pop psychologists who often misquote freud in order to justify
: their lack of true *need* but of a *selfish want*
:
: it seems to me that you are not really making a commentary or disclosure on
: the latter.
:
: audrey
:
don't close the ladder until i step off it
if you ever decide to read koestlers roots of coincidence then perhaps we
can email each other about it.
:-D
.
|
|
|
| User: "% surfs@uniserve" |
|
| Title: Re: Need |
08 Feb 2005 07:22:29 PM |
|
|
"audrey in velvet" <lindauermadness@mydotcomaddress.com> wrote in message
news:BE2F0884.A40A%lindauermadness@mydotcomaddress.com...
: On 9/2/05 12:18 am, in article 110ill6ci62q6d3@corp.supernews.com, "%"
: <surfs@uniserve> wrote:
:
: >
: > "audrey in velvet" <lindauermadness@mydotcomaddress.com> wrote in message
: > news:BE2F0748.A401%lindauermadness@mydotcomaddress.com...
: > : On 8/2/05 9:58 am, in article 230Od.16097$mo2.1266731@news.xtra.co.nz,
: > : "GlennT" <askme@noname.com> wrote:
: > :
: > : >
: > : > It is something I have talked about often so finally I have
: > : > decided to write a post on it.
: > : >
: > : > My childhood wasn't great. It was dangerous and full of trials
: > : > and tribulations. My mind evolved through that to ascertain some
: > : > survival techniques that met both the physical and emotional
: > : > requirements I had at the time. It has stayed with me and
: > : > solidified to a state of belief.
: > : >
: > : > I needed to be loved and love. I needed to be liked and to like
: > : > others. I had needs. I managed to, more or less, get those needs
: > : > met. How that happened is what I'm writing about.
: > : >
: > : > To get emotional requirements filled means trusting. Trust from
: > : > yourself, and as I discovered more importantly, trusting others.
: > : >
: > : > Trust is such an odd indefinable thing. We so often have our
: > : > trust shattered and the weakest never survive that and are
: > : > destined to cynical unsatisfying lives. The stronger learn to
: > : > modify and further modify trust till there are a few left around
: > : > them that enable them to still believe in human nature. To still
: > : > have sensitivity to others. To still love and be loved.
: > : >
: > : > I have evolved a little differently it seems. I have evolved an
: > : > incredibly sensitive understanding of other people's needs. The
: > : > latest evolution is realizing I use need as trust. I have
: > : > replaced one with the other and it seems to work quite well.
: > : >
: > : > Trust to me means knowing what someone will do based on their
: > : > needs. Understanding that need means being brutally honest on the
: > : > inside while being deceptive on the outside. Detective work is
: > : > about illusions cleverly created to bring out the truth from
: > : > others. Understanding other people's needs is about really
: > : > defining what is their truth. To do that requires a certain level
: > : > of deception, just ask any police and they will tell you I am
: > : > right. Deception is fine if you understand what it really is and
: > : > that we all deceive to one degree or another.
: > : >
: > : > Lying for personal gain will get you nowhere in the long run.
: > : > Being deceptive to expose truth is much more easily accepted. It
: > : > is using human nature for the good of all not necessarily because
: > : > you want something. Everybody learns by being tripped up in a
: > : > game of deception, everybody. It is acceptable.
: > : >
: > : > I have barely scratched the surface of this subject but already
: > : > my post is way too long. I trust need. That is the one thing you
: > : > *can* trust if you are able to truly ascertain what people's
: > : > needs really are.
: > : >
: > : > GlennT
: > :
: > :
: > : i think though that there is a difference between *need* as a primary
: > : condition for survival as opposed to *needy* those individuals whose primary
: > : sense of self is dependant on other people's external validation.
: > :
: > : i think its perfectly natural to need other people as long as it is
: > : symbiotic...however i wonder though if perhaps the need you are describing
: > : is more about being in harmony with oneself and others as opposed to the
: > : neurotic obsessive neediness that one has become all too familiar with in
: > : the days of pop psychologists who often misquote freud in order to justify
: > : their lack of true *need* but of a *selfish want*
: > :
: > : it seems to me that you are not really making a commentary or disclosure on
: > : the latter.
: > :
: > : audrey
: > :
: >
: >
: > don't close the ladder until i step off it
: >
: >
: if you ever decide to read koestlers roots of coincidence then perhaps we
: can email each other about it.
i can't read
:
: :-D
:
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "GlennT" |
|
| Title: Re: Need |
08 Feb 2005 07:43:52 PM |
|
|
audrey in velvet wrote:
On 8/2/05 9:58 am, in article 230Od.16097$mo2.1266731@news.xtra.co.nz,
"GlennT" <askme@noname.com> wrote:
It is something I have talked about often so finally I have
decided to write a post on it.
My childhood wasn't great. It was dangerous and full of trials
and tribulations. My mind evolved through that to ascertain some
survival techniques that met both the physical and emotional
requirements I had at the time. It has stayed with me and
solidified to a state of belief.
I needed to be loved and love. I needed to be liked and to like
others. I had needs. I managed to, more or less, get those needs
met. How that happened is what I'm writing about.
To get emotional requirements filled means trusting. Trust from
yourself, and as I discovered more importantly, trusting others.
Trust is such an odd indefinable thing. We so often have our
trust shattered and the weakest never survive that and are
destined to cynical unsatisfying lives. The stronger learn to
modify and further modify trust till there are a few left around
them that enable them to still believe in human nature. To still
have sensitivity to others. To still love and be loved.
I have evolved a little differently it seems. I have evolved an
incredibly sensitive understanding of other people's needs. The
latest evolution is realizing I use need as trust. I have
replaced one with the other and it seems to work quite well.
Trust to me means knowing what someone will do based on their
needs. Understanding that need means being brutally honest on the
inside while being deceptive on the outside. Detective work is
about illusions cleverly created to bring out the truth from
others. Understanding other people's needs is about really
defining what is their truth. To do that requires a certain level
of deception, just ask any police and they will tell you I am
right. Deception is fine if you understand what it really is and
that we all deceive to one degree or another.
Lying for personal gain will get you nowhere in the long run.
Being deceptive to expose truth is much more easily accepted. It
is using human nature for the good of all not necessarily because
you want something. Everybody learns by being tripped up in a
game of deception, everybody. It is acceptable.
I have barely scratched the surface of this subject but already
my post is way too long. I trust need. That is the one thing you
*can* trust if you are able to truly ascertain what people's
needs really are.
GlennT
i think though that there is a difference between *need* as a primary
condition for survival as opposed to *needy* those individuals whose primary
sense of self is dependant on other people's external validation.
I'm definitely *not* talking about needy. I am not even talking
about someone's obvious need like when they say, "Hmmm I'm
thirsty" in which case you know they need a drink.
I'm talking about getting to know someone's sub-conscious 'needs'
which is a deeper state of being than surface need. e.g. Some
people need to be loved. They need it to make them feel whole,
secure or happy. Most people like the idea of being loved but not
everyone needs it. Same with violence. Some people have a deep
need to be violent although it may never manifest itself in
action it will show up in other forms. Some people have a need to
impress and to be impressed. Although these are all states we can
pass through at various stages there is a deeper semi-permanent
or permanent type of need in the people I have come into close
contact with.
Validation gets a bad rap here and I've never understood that. We
all need some type of validation to feel connected and wanted or
liked. It is an interaction of need and validation that makes
friendships and relationships work or not work.
Co-dependency is another extreme that is bad in it's purest form
but in a lesser form can be totally satisfying for all. We are
not programmed robots trundling along a chosen track of our black
and white existence. We are living organisms digesting and
consuming much more than food. Breathing much more than air.
there is taste and smell to consider for a start
If you listen to silence it will cease to exist because there
will always be a noise you will become aware of just by listening
carefully. I get the same thing from those around me. Just
because someone isn't talking doesn't mean they are not thinking
or existing beyond the obvious.
Body language and reading between the lines of their gentle
manipulations gives heaps of information as to their
sub-conscious needs. Reading that is something I like to do. It
doesn't mean I have perfected it or possibly even scratched the
surface of it but I have definitely developed radar that can be
useful.
I have enabled myself to trust by using it. To trust someone's
need means knowing, within certain parameters, how they will
react and what they will be likely do or say. We all manipulate
and a lot of it is sophisticated sub-conscious stuff that can do
great harm to those we love. I have been manipulated by experts.
I have learnt to trust by knowing what that manipulation means
and how I can counter it or how I can use it to slingshot someone
into doing something we both want. This is the hardest part to
try and explain because it is largely instinctive.
i think its perfectly natural to need other people as long as it is
symbiotic...however i wonder though if perhaps the need you are describing
is more about being in harmony with oneself and others as opposed to the
neurotic obsessive neediness that one has become all too familiar with in
the days of pop psychologists who often misquote freud in order to justify
their lack of true *need* but of a *selfish want*
it seems to me that you are not really making a commentary or disclosure on
the latter.
audrey
I am not commenting on the other because it is not what I am
talking about. The same as I am not commenting on planes or
tractor engines. I have experienced obsessive need and it scared
the ***** out of me. I ran a mile. No, I am simply talking about
subtle understanding of sub-conscious need and defining if that
can be used or not. If I can trust that person to do what I need
done for me or not. To see if the symbiosis is mutual and
working. It has to be two way in the end or otherwise it is
worthless.
GlennT
.
|
|
|
| User: "audrey in velvet" |
|
| Title: Re: Need |
08 Feb 2005 08:44:49 PM |
|
|
On 9/2/05 1:43 am, in article sVdOd.16273$mo2.1287917@news.xtra.co.nz,
"GlennT" <askme@noname.com> wrote:
audrey in velvet wrote:
On 8/2/05 9:58 am, in article 230Od.16097$mo2.1266731@news.xtra.co.nz,
"GlennT" <askme@noname.com> wrote:
It is something I have talked about often so finally I have
decided to write a post on it.
My childhood wasn't great. It was dangerous and full of trials
and tribulations. My mind evolved through that to ascertain some
survival techniques that met both the physical and emotional
requirements I had at the time. It has stayed with me and
solidified to a state of belief.
I needed to be loved and love. I needed to be liked and to like
others. I had needs. I managed to, more or less, get those needs
met. How that happened is what I'm writing about.
To get emotional requirements filled means trusting. Trust from
yourself, and as I discovered more importantly, trusting others.
Trust is such an odd indefinable thing. We so often have our
trust shattered and the weakest never survive that and are
destined to cynical unsatisfying lives. The stronger learn to
modify and further modify trust till there are a few left around
them that enable them to still believe in human nature. To still
have sensitivity to others. To still love and be loved.
I have evolved a little differently it seems. I have evolved an
incredibly sensitive understanding of other people's needs. The
latest evolution is realizing I use need as trust. I have
replaced one with the other and it seems to work quite well.
Trust to me means knowing what someone will do based on their
needs. Understanding that need means being brutally honest on the
inside while being deceptive on the outside. Detective work is
about illusions cleverly created to bring out the truth from
others. Understanding other people's needs is about really
defining what is their truth. To do that requires a certain level
of deception, just ask any police and they will tell you I am
right. Deception is fine if you understand what it really is and
that we all deceive to one degree or another.
Lying for personal gain will get you nowhere in the long run.
Being deceptive to expose truth is much more easily accepted. It
is using human nature for the good of all not necessarily because
you want something. Everybody learns by being tripped up in a
game of deception, everybody. It is acceptable.
I have barely scratched the surface of this subject but already
my post is way too long. I trust need. That is the one thing you
*can* trust if you are able to truly ascertain what people's
needs really are.
GlennT
i think though that there is a difference between *need* as a primary
condition for survival as opposed to *needy* those individuals whose primary
sense of self is dependant on other people's external validation.
I'm definitely *not* talking about needy. I am not even talking
about someone's obvious need like when they say, "Hmmm I'm
thirsty" in which case you know they need a drink.
i didnt think you were...i was certain you meant more of the hidden aspect
of ones psyche in which only a few people know about...a kind of a holistic
hegemonic kind of need in which one becomes aware of his own self. finding
the complement in someone else who becomes a catalyst for your own
heightened awareness of yourself. sort of like love i imagine.
I'm talking about getting to know someone's sub-conscious 'needs'
which is a deeper state of being than surface need. e.g. Some
people need to be loved. They need it to make them feel whole,
secure or happy. Most people like the idea of being loved but not
everyone needs it. Same with violence. Some people have a deep
need to be violent although it may never manifest itself in
action it will show up in other forms. Some people have a need to
impress and to be impressed. Although these are all states we can
pass through at various stages there is a deeper semi-permanent
or permanent type of need in the people I have come into close
contact with.
i think the underlying aspect is that *passing states of need* should be
differentiated to those permanent ones which act as blueprints to our
interaction and behavior with others.
Validation gets a bad rap here and I've never understood that. We
all need some type of validation to feel connected and wanted or
liked. It is an interaction of need and validation that makes
friendships and relationships work or not work.
i think its nice to be appreciated...for someone to acknowledge your hard
work or creativity...i think thats quite different from what i meant as
*external validation* as a necessary condition to achieve a sense of self
worth per se...but im afraid we might merely be arguing about semantics
now...
Co-dependency is another extreme that is bad in it's purest form
but in a lesser form can be totally satisfying for all. We are
not programmed robots trundling along a chosen track of our black
and white existence. We are living organisms digesting and
consuming much more than food. Breathing much more than air.
there is taste and smell to consider for a start
i agree...although i view this more as being in a state of symbiosis rather
than codependency which i attach a negative connotation to
If you listen to silence it will cease to exist because there
will always be a noise you will become aware of just by listening
carefully. I get the same thing from those around me. Just
because someone isn't talking doesn't mean they are not thinking
or existing beyond the obvious.
so you must be one of those strong silent types :-)
Body language and reading between the lines of their gentle
manipulations gives heaps of information as to their
sub-conscious needs. Reading that is something I like to do. It
doesn't mean I have perfected it or possibly even scratched the
surface of it but I have definitely developed radar that can be
useful.
people reveal the most about their own selves. i think that was about one of
the first things i ever learned.
I have enabled myself to trust by using it. To trust someone's
need means knowing, within certain parameters, how they will
react and what they will be likely do or say. We all manipulate
and a lot of it is sophisticated sub-conscious stuff that can do
great harm to those we love. I have been manipulated by experts.
I have learnt to trust by knowing what that manipulation means
and how I can counter it or how I can use it to slingshot someone
into doing something we both want. This is the hardest part to
try and explain because it is largely instinctive.
it sounds all a bit like physics...but energy does transform itself. as an
example, i always think of the way light reflects and can break up or focus
into a dense ray...people arent that dissimilar imho...i suppose perhaps
some of us are better tuned into others and can channel that
*light*...however i still think that people learn much more in group
situations than by a single manipulator in theory. i agree that without
trust not much can be done in regards to relationships.
i think its perfectly natural to need other people as long as it is
symbiotic...however i wonder though if perhaps the need you are describing
is more about being in harmony with oneself and others as opposed to the
neurotic obsessive neediness that one has become all too familiar with in
the days of pop psychologists who often misquote freud in order to justify
their lack of true *need* but of a *selfish want*
it seems to me that you are not really making a commentary or disclosure on
the latter.
audrey
I am not commenting on the other because it is not what I am
talking about. The same as I am not commenting on planes or
tractor engines. I have experienced obsessive need and it scared
the ***** out of me. I ran a mile.
me too. several times in fact. :-)
No, I am simply talking about
subtle understanding of sub-conscious need and defining if that
can be used or not. If I can trust that person to do what I need
done for me or not. To see if the symbiosis is mutual and
working. It has to be two way in the end or otherwise it is
worthless.
the interesting effect of trust is that the whole becomes much more than its
separate parts. i suppose two individuals who trust each other will go
further than people who are always on the defensive and suffering from fear
jealousy and the like...in theory i think we tend to paint extremes of one
situation or another but perhaps the ideal is to strive for balance.
audrey
GlennT
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Need |
09 Feb 2005 04:57:25 AM |
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audrey in velvet wrote:
i didnt think you were...i was certain you meant more of the hidden aspect
of ones psyche in which only a few people know about...a kind of a holistic
hegemonic kind of need in which one becomes aware of his own self. finding
the complement in someone else who becomes a catalyst for your own
heightened awareness of yourself. sort of like love i imagine.
Hey, I like that description. It is like looking at what I'm
trying to say from another angle. I think whatever awareness you
have of others must intrinsically come from knowledge of the self.
Validation gets a bad rap here and I've never understood that. We
all need some type of validation to feel connected and wanted or
liked. It is an interaction of need and validation that makes
friendships and relationships work or not work.
i think its nice to be appreciated...for someone to acknowledge your hard
work or creativity...i think thats quite different from what i meant as
*external validation* as a necessary condition to achieve a sense of self
worth per se...but im afraid we might merely be arguing about semantics
now...
I don't know how to separate the two. I need reflection from
another to understand what my actions mean to both of us. Yes,
maybe it is semantics but isn't that also important in
communication? Defining a word can create much more than just the
mutual understanding of the meaning of a word.
Co-dependency is another extreme that is bad in it's purest form
but in a lesser form can be totally satisfying for all. We are
not programmed robots trundling along a chosen track of our black
and white existence. We are living organisms digesting and
consuming much more than food. Breathing much more than air.
there is taste and smell to consider for a start
i agree...although i view this more as being in a state of symbiosis rather
than codependency which i attach a negative connotation to
Well lets delve into semantics again. Isn't co-dependendecy the
expression of a need? If that need becomes needy and that needy
behaviour becomes negative then that's what it is. Whereas if a
need to feed off someone else becomes symbiotic isn't that good
co-dependancy? Useful and fulfilling behaviour?
If you listen to silence it will cease to exist because there
will always be a noise you will become aware of just by listening
carefully. I get the same thing from those around me. Just
because someone isn't talking doesn't mean they are not thinking
or existing beyond the obvious.
so you must be one of those strong silent types :-)
Me? Not that I have noticed. There is one point that comes to
mind. I have never minded silences in conversations and never
felt the need to fill them. For me the conversation still
continues but without words.
I have attracted the friendship of the odd 'heavy dude'
uncommunicative types because I have not felt the need to babble.
It often comes across as strength and earns respect when for me
it is simply another form of communication.
Body language and reading between the lines of their gentle
manipulations gives heaps of information as to their
sub-conscious needs. Reading that is something I like to do. It
doesn't mean I have perfected it or possibly even scratched the
surface of it but I have definitely developed radar that can be
useful.
people reveal the most about their own selves. i think that was about one of
the first things i ever learned.
If you are open to it definitely. In my case my family was so
dysfunctional it seemed to grow out of a need to see order within
the chaos. To espy love when none was on show. To find acceptance
through silent communication rather than words which were
constantly designed to cut and make you bleed.
I have enabled myself to trust by using it. To trust someone's
need means knowing, within certain parameters, how they will
react and what they will be likely do or say. We all manipulate
and a lot of it is sophisticated sub-conscious stuff that can do
great harm to those we love. I have been manipulated by experts.
I have learnt to trust by knowing what that manipulation means
and how I can counter it or how I can use it to slingshot someone
into doing something we both want. This is the hardest part to
try and explain because it is largely instinctive.
it sounds all a bit like physics...but energy does transform itself. as an
example, i always think of the way light reflects and can break up or focus
into a dense ray...people arent that dissimilar imho...i suppose perhaps
some of us are better tuned into others and can channel that
*light*...however i still think that people learn much more in group
situations than by a single manipulator in theory. i agree that without
trust not much can be done in regards to relationships.
Another description I find interesting. I am so enjoying this
conversation with you. Most of my stuff is too esoteric for
public consumption but you seem to have leapt in boots and all
trying to understand.
I am not commenting on the other because it is not what I am
talking about. The same as I am not commenting on planes or
tractor engines. I have experienced obsessive need and it scared
the ***** out of me. I ran a mile.
me too. several times in fact. :-)
Yuck! Need me, I need you isn't that enough? No baby, it isn't.
No, I am simply talking about
subtle understanding of sub-conscious need and defining if that
can be used or not. If I can trust that person to do what I need
done for me or not. To see if the symbiosis is mutual and
working. It has to be two way in the end or otherwise it is
worthless.
the interesting effect of trust is that the whole becomes much more than its
separate parts. i suppose two individuals who trust each other will go
further than people who are always on the defensive and suffering from fear
jealousy and the like...in theory i think we tend to paint extremes of one
situation or another but perhaps the ideal is to strive for balance.
audrey
Something I said earlier to someone else seems to fit. If one is
willing to be sensitive then one must be willing to look stupid
now and then. Discovery is not found on any map, there are no
directions available. Explorers are always looking stupid unless
they find what they are looking for.
Trust, at least to me, is exposure and a chance to be let down. I
have decided that I need trust in my life and therefore I will
look for it using whatever methods seem to work. Defining, as
best as possible, other peoples needs seem to work best. Being
wrong in that assumption is the risk I am willing to take but
what I am not prepared to do is to trust blindly. No leap of
faith here... just a quiet pathway to inter relational discovery.
GlennT
.
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| User: "audrey in velvet" |
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| Title: Re: Need |
10 Feb 2005 04:20:21 PM |
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On 9/2/05 10:57 am, in article p0mOd.109$1S4.5391@news.xtra.co.nz, "GlennT"
<askme@noname.com> wrote:
audrey in velvet wrote:
i didnt think you were...i was certain you meant more of the hidden aspect
of ones psyche in which only a few people know about...a kind of a holistic
hegemonic kind of need in which one becomes aware of his own self. finding
the complement in someone else who becomes a catalyst for your own
heightened awareness of yourself. sort of like love i imagine.
Hey, I like that description. It is like looking at what I'm
trying to say from another angle. I think whatever awareness you
have of others must intrinsically come from knowledge of the self.
yes...and some people bring out all the best parts of you that you forget
after the years wear on
Validation gets a bad rap here and I've never understood that. We
all need some type of validation to feel connected and wanted or
liked. It is an interaction of need and validation that makes
friendships and relationships work or not work.
i think its nice to be appreciated...for someone to acknowledge your hard
work or creativity...i think thats quite different from what i meant as
*external validation* as a necessary condition to achieve a sense of self
worth per se...but im afraid we might merely be arguing about semantics
now...
I don't know how to separate the two. I need reflection from
another to understand what my actions mean to both of us. Yes,
maybe it is semantics but isn't that also important in
communication? Defining a word can create much more than just the
mutual understanding of the meaning of a word.
i think perhaps for people like me who tend to be quite introverted that i
need to know sometimes that im getting through and reaching someone. its
always nice to be understood, even better if that person inspires you to do
your best...i think one thing i know about myself is that i cant work when
im too comfortable and become set in my bad habits...i want someone to push
me to be better in the end
Co-dependency is another extreme that is bad in it's purest form
but in a lesser form can be totally satisfying for all. We are
not programmed robots trundling along a chosen track of our black
and white existence. We are living organisms digesting and
consuming much more than food. Breathing much more than air.
there is taste and smell to consider for a start
i agree...although i view this more as being in a state of symbiosis rather
than codependency which i attach a negative connotation to
Well lets delve into semantics again. Isn't co-dependendecy the
expression of a need? If that need becomes needy and that needy
behaviour becomes negative then that's what it is. Whereas if a
need to feed off someone else becomes symbiotic isn't that good
co-dependancy? Useful and fulfilling behaviour?
in your definition of co-dependancy...i prefer the latter. :-) if only
people were symbiotic all the time...but then i think most of the time that
people might just be *reacting* to each other as opposed to *listening* to
what theyre really trying to say to the other
its a bit like arguing with someone through email...its mainly about two men
who are attempting to upstage each other...the actual context of their
conversation has been lost...and it becomes a will of egos
If you listen to silence it will cease to exist because there
will always be a noise you will become aware of just by listening
carefully. I get the same thing from those around me. Just
because someone isn't talking doesn't mean they are not thinking
or existing beyond the obvious.
so you must be one of those strong silent types :-)
Me? Not that I have noticed. There is one point that comes to
mind. I have never minded silences in conversations and never
felt the need to fill them. For me the conversation still
continues but without words.
hmmmm...ive noticed though that if someone knows how to talk to someone that
s/he also knows how to interpret body language quite well in others...or at
least thats what i think you mean
I have attracted the friendship of the odd 'heavy dude'
uncommunicative types because I have not felt the need to babble.
lol...
It often comes across as strength and earns respect when for me
it is simply another form of communication.
yeah i know what you mean...sometimes i just need a hug
Body language and reading between the lines of their gentle
manipulations gives heaps of information as to their
sub-conscious needs. Reading that is something I like to do. It
doesn't mean I have perfected it or possibly even scratched the
surface of it but I have definitely developed radar that can be
useful.
people reveal the most about their own selves. i think that was about one of
the first things i ever learned.
If you are open to it definitely. In my case my family was so
dysfunctional it seemed to grow out of a need to see order within
the chaos. To espy love when none was on show. To find acceptance
through silent communication rather than words which were
constantly designed to cut and make you bleed.
i know what you mean. i think its a bit like being caught on the
battleground between two countries you love. you dont want to choose and
tired of the bickering. i find that in those cases we tend to be one of two
types...we either become silent and withdraw into ourselves or we become the
peacekeepers...
from what youve written...im going to guess that you were the former
I have enabled myself to trust by using it. To trust someone's
need means knowing, within certain parameters, how they will
react and what they will be likely do or say. We all manipulate
and a lot of it is sophisticated sub-conscious stuff that can do
great harm to those we love. I have been manipulated by experts.
I have learnt to trust by knowing what that manipulation means
and how I can counter it or how I can use it to slingshot someone
into doing something we both want. This is the hardest part to
try and explain because it is largely instinctive.
it sounds all a bit like physics...but energy does transform itself. as an
example, i always think of the way light reflects and can break up or focus
into a dense ray...people arent that dissimilar imho...i suppose perhaps
some of us are better tuned into others and can channel that
*light*...however i still think that people learn much more in group
situations than by a single manipulator in theory. i agree that without
trust not much can be done in regards to relationships.
Another description I find interesting. I am so enjoying this
conversation with you. Most of my stuff is too esoteric for
public consumption but you seem to have leapt in boots and all
trying to understand.
i find you oddly compelling myself :-) its nice when you dont have to
pretend with someone and can just say whats on your mind without thinking
that the other person will find fault with anything you say...
i like leaps and bounds. i love esoteric conversations...as long as its not
about finance that is...
I am not commenting on the other because it is not what I am
talking about. The same as I am not commenting on planes or
tractor engines. I have experienced obsessive need and it scared
the ***** out of me. I ran a mile.
me too. several times in fact. :-)
Yuck! Need me, I need you isn't that enough? No baby, it isn't.
i think the simplest things sometimes is enough...need creates demand and
pressure...especially if youre unhappy in other ways you dont want to
verbalize
No, I am simply talking about
subtle understanding of sub-conscious need and defining if that
can be used or not. If I can trust that person to do what I need
done for me or not. To see if the symbiosis is mutual and
working. It has to be two way in the end or otherwise it is
worthless.
the interesting effect of trust is that the whole becomes much more than its
separate parts. i suppose two individuals who trust each other will go
further than people who are always on the defensive and suffering from fear
jealousy and the like...in theory i think we tend to paint extremes of one
situation or another but perhaps the ideal is to strive for balance.
audrey
Something I said earlier to someone else seems to fit. If one is
willing to be sensitive then one must be willing to look stupid
now and then. Discovery is not found on any map, there are no
directions available. Explorers are always looking stupid unless
they find what they are looking for.
Trust, at least to me, is exposure and a chance to be let down. I
have decided that I need trust in my life and therefore I will
look for it using whatever methods seem to work. Defining, as
best as possible, other peoples needs seem to work best. Being
wrong in that assumption is the risk I am willing to take but
what I am not prepared to do is to trust blindly. No leap of
faith here... just a quiet pathway to inter relational discovery.
i think people who are willing to look stupid are extremely confident
people...
to me trust implies that i wont be let down...that i can be vulnerable with
them and they will be there for me when i need them and not out of
convenience...i dont think any of us trusts blindly though...we can often
tell with instinct or discern in an intuitive manner when we are able to
trust someone
but i have to admit that i like being needed too.
audrey
GlennT
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| User: "Charlie" |
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| Title: Re: Need |
08 Feb 2005 07:40:17 AM |
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On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:58:21 +1300, GlennT <askme@noname.com> wrote:
It is something I have talked about often so finally I have
decided to write a post on it.
My childhood wasn't great. It was dangerous and full of trials
and tribulations. My mind evolved through that to ascertain some
survival techniques that met both the physical and emotional
requirements I had at the time. It has stayed with me and
solidified to a state of belief.
I needed to be loved and love. I needed to be liked and to like
others. I had needs. I managed to, more or less, get those needs
met. How that happened is what I'm writing about.
To get emotional requirements filled means trusting. Trust from
yourself, and as I discovered more importantly, trusting others.
Trust is such an odd indefinable thing. We so often have our
trust shattered and the weakest never survive that and are
destined to cynical unsatisfying lives. The stronger learn to
modify and further modify trust till there are a few left around
them that enable them to still believe in human nature. To still
have sensitivity to others. To still love and be loved.
I have evolved a little differently it seems. I have evolved an
incredibly sensitive understanding of other people's needs. The
latest evolution is realizing I use need as trust. I have
replaced one with the other and it seems to work quite well.
Trust to me means knowing what someone will do based on their
needs. Understanding that need means being brutally honest on the
inside while being deceptive on the outside. Detective work is
about illusions cleverly created to bring out the truth from
others. Understanding other people's needs is about really
defining what is their truth. To do that requires a certain level
of deception, just ask any police and they will tell you I am
right. Deception is fine if you understand what it really is and
that we all deceive to one degree or another.
Lying for personal gain will get you nowhere in the long run.
Being deceptive to expose truth is much more easily accepted. It
is using human nature for the good of all not necessarily because
you want something. Everybody learns by being tripped up in a
game of deception, everybody. It is acceptable.
I have barely scratched the surface of this subject but already
my post is way too long. I trust need. That is the one thing you
*can* trust if you are able to truly ascertain what people's
needs really are.
GlennT
I may be half-drunk (pretty close, I've only had three pints) and took
too many meds tonight, but I didn't get ANY sense out of your post.
Can you rephrase?
<> Charlie <>
This is my letter to the world, That never wrote to me, --
The simple news that Nature told, With tender majesty.
-Emily Dickinson
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Need |
08 Feb 2005 02:34:00 PM |
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Charlie wrote:
I may be half-drunk (pretty close, I've only had three pints) and took
too many meds tonight, but I didn't get ANY sense out of your post.
Can you rephrase?
<> Charlie <>
This is my letter to the world, That never wrote to me, --
The simple news that Nature told, With tender majesty.
-Emily Dickinson
Can you take less meds and lay off the alcohol?
GlennT
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