| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"Janithor" |
| Date: |
28 Oct 2004 08:31:02 PM |
| Object: |
Neoholistic (ot politics) |
x-no-archive: yes
Why are they still trying to get you guys? I thought you pulled out of
Iraq, therefore addressing the root cause of their anger? Shouldn't
they be leaving you alone now?
----
MADRID (Reuters) - Despite dozens of arrests, Spanish police have yet to
establish who ultimately ordered the Madrid rail bombings and seven
months later are still uncovering new militant threats.
Investigators believe nearly all the perpetrators of the March 11 train
attacks that killed 191 people have been captured or killed.
They also believe they have identified three leaders of the attacks,
blamed on Islamic militants linked to al Qaeda.
But there is no consensus on whether the bomb suspects acted on their
own or took orders from someone.
More sleeper cells are presumed to exist. Nearly all the suspects
identified are North Africans who easily blend in with a half a million
others living and working in Spain.
In a reminder of ongoing security threats, police last week arrested
eight men suspected of plotting to blow up the High Court with a truck
bomb. Ten others were suspected of cooperating from jail.
The probes are among nine separate investigations opened by Spain's High
Court into purported Islamist radicals. So far 50 people have been
charged and another 58 jailed on suspicion of belonging to armed groups.
"The threat is still present here as it is in other European countries.
There are 15 million Muslims in Europe, and if one in 10,000 has
sympathy (for the militant movement), then there is a mass of possible
recruits," said Juan Aviles, director of a Spanish research institute
dedicated to internal security.
Four known train bombing suspects remain at large, as do seven from the
most recent case. There are worries remnants of the cell may try to
regroup and strike again.
"They are going to try again, but it is becoming more and more difficult
because Spanish intelligence has plenty of information about them," said
Rafael Calduch, president of the think-tank International Strategic
Analysis.
Earlier this month Spain solved a lingering mystery of the railway
attacks by confirming the death of Algerian Allekama Lamari, one of
seven men who blew themselves up in a suburban apartment on April 3 in
order to avoid arrest.
Spanish investigators have called Lamari, 39, the "emir" or religious
leader of the cell that carried out the most devastating attack in
modern Spanish history.
At one point investigators guessed the seventh bomber may have been Said
Berraj, 32, who was among the first six suspects identified in
international arrest warrants issued on March 31.
Berraj remains at large and has been linked to another Moroccan, Amer
Azizi, who is wanted in one of the many investigations conducted by High
Court Judge Baltasar Garzon.
Berraj and Azizi were among a group of men arrested in Istanbul in
October 2000 on suspicion of planning al Qaeda activity, but they were
later released.
.
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| User: "neoholistic" |
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| Title: Re: Neoholistic (ot politics) |
29 Oct 2004 01:08:09 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Janithor wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Why are they still trying to get you guys? I thought you pulled out of
Iraq, therefore addressing the root cause of their anger? Shouldn't
they be leaving you alone now?
Looks like things are a /bit/ more complicated than that, doesn't it?
(Cannot write anymore right now)
--
Please keep the 'x-no-archive: yes' header.
.
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| User: "Janithor" |
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| Title: Re: Neoholistic (ot politics) |
29 Oct 2004 01:16:54 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
neoholistic wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Janithor wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Why are they still trying to get you guys? I thought you pulled out
of Iraq, therefore addressing the root cause of their anger?
Shouldn't they be leaving you alone now?
Looks like things are a /bit/ more complicated than that, doesn't it?
(Cannot write anymore right now)
Some here have said it's *ALL* about Israel. What's Spain's policy
towards the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Could that be it?
.
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| User: "Whiskers" |
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| Title: Re: Neoholistic (ot politics) |
29 Oct 2004 08:18:34 AM |
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X-No-Archive: Yes
On 2004-10-29, Janithor <Janithor@comcast.net> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
neoholistic wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Janithor wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Why are they still trying to get you guys? I thought you pulled out
of Iraq, therefore addressing the root cause of their anger?
Shouldn't they be leaving you alone now?
Looks like things are a /bit/ more complicated than that, doesn't it?
(Cannot write anymore right now)
Some here have said it's *ALL* about Israel. What's Spain's policy
towards the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Could that be it?
There isn't an "it". Terrorism has many origins and many expressions, all
unconnected with each other or even mutually antagonistic. Much of the
antagonism against the USA is indeed related to or aggravated by the USA's
lack of even-handedness in its policy concerning the Holy Land, but there
are many other causes involved too, some involving the USA and some (believe
it or not) having absolutely nothing to do with the USA (except insofar as
the USA sometimes harbours the plotters, or funds them by buying illegal
drugs and fake goods).
The notion of a single global organisation plotting mayhem against the US
or "The West" is a fiction invented by politicians who like to have the
populace afraid and cowed, and the weapons industry and military heavily
funded out of taxation. (Guess who funds the politicians... ). It used to
be 'The Red Menace' but that fiction is no longer tenable so a new one had
to be invented.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
.
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| User: "Janithor" |
|
| Title: Re: Neoholistic (ot politics) |
29 Oct 2004 04:14:07 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Whiskers wrote:
X-No-Archive: Yes
On 2004-10-29, Janithor <Janithor@comcast.net> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
neoholistic wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Janithor wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Why are they still trying to get you guys? I thought you pulled out
of Iraq, therefore addressing the root cause of their anger?
Shouldn't they be leaving you alone now?
Looks like things are a /bit/ more complicated than that, doesn't it?
(Cannot write anymore right now)
Some here have said it's *ALL* about Israel. What's Spain's policy
towards the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Could that be it?
There isn't an "it". Terrorism has many origins and many expressions, all
unconnected with each other or even mutually antagonistic. Much of the
antagonism against the USA is indeed related to or aggravated by the USA's
lack of even-handedness in its policy concerning the Holy Land, but there
are many other causes involved too, some involving the USA and some (believe
it or not) having absolutely nothing to do with the USA (except insofar as
the USA sometimes harbours the plotters, or funds them by buying illegal
drugs and fake goods).
The notion of a single global organisation plotting mayhem against the US
or "The West" is a fiction invented by politicians who like to have the
populace afraid and cowed, and the weapons industry and military heavily
funded out of taxation. (Guess who funds the politicians... ). It used to
be 'The Red Menace' but that fiction is no longer tenable so a new one had
to be invented.
That's interesting, but I wasn't talking about the USA, I was talking
about Spain. But you do mention the West in passing, so I'm going to
assume what you're saying about the US applies to Spain as well? Or do
you think Spain a different case?
I agree, I don't think there is ever one single cause to something so
complex as this issue. Some here have asserted that terror is caused
solely by the Palestinian-Israeli conflict; after the Madrid bombings,
people were saying this happened because Spain was in Iraq. They left
Iraq I assume to be safer and less of a target to terror. I just found
it interesting that they are still be plotted against. Maybe leaving
Iraq did lessen their profile, I don't know, but it doesn't look like it
fully stopped the threat.
Why would they still be targeting Spain? I really have no idea. The
only thing I can think is that they are going to continue to retaliate
for Spain pursuing the people responsible for 3/11. They plot to
revenge any arrests/deaths, Spain hunts them down creating more
arrests/deaths, they plot to avenge THESE arrests/deaths, and so it
goes. I don't know. Other than that, why would they go after Spain?
.
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| User: "Whiskers" |
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| Title: Re: Neoholistic (ot politics) |
29 Oct 2004 06:15:22 PM |
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X-No-Archive: Yes
On 2004-10-29, Janithor <Janithor@comcast.net> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
snip
after the Madrid bombings,
people were saying this happened because Spain was in Iraq.
The people who claimed responsibility for that paticular bombing incident,
said it was because Spain was backing the invasion of Iraq.
They left
Iraq I assume to be safer and less of a target to terror.
Surprising how many people seem to have forgotten that the previous Spanish
government (the one that lost that very close election) had already done
two things, not influenced in any way by terrorist threats: (1) They'd sent
troops to Iraq for a limited period only, which was about to end anyway; and
(2) they'd been caught out in lies that really annoyed many Spanish voters
(the most recent one being to claim that they had proof that the Atocha
bombing was carried out by ETA, and trying to use that as an excuse to 'get
tough on the Basques').
I just found
it interesting that they are still be plotted against. Maybe leaving
Iraq did lessen their profile, I don't know, but it doesn't look like it
fully stopped the threat.
Why would they still be targeting Spain? I really have no idea. The
only thing I can think is that they are going to continue to retaliate
for Spain pursuing the people responsible for 3/11. They plot to
revenge any arrests/deaths, Spain hunts them down creating more
arrests/deaths, they plot to avenge THESE arrests/deaths, and so it
goes. I don't know. Other than that, why would they go after Spain?
I'll repeat this bit " ... but there are many other causes involved too,
some involving the USA and some (believe it or not) having absolutely
nothing to do with the USA ..." England, Spain, France, etc, were pissing
off other people even before there was a USA. You ex-colonies have got
centuries of catching up to do in the making enemies department (although
you are trying quite hard at the moment).
Of course, now that the various terrorist groups all around the world are
busily buying up all the munitions 'lost' from Iraq since the invasion,
they have to think of places to use their new weapons. For some, the
'reasons' are probably a secondary consideration. For others, all that
matters is "those who are not with us, are against us".
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
.
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| User: "neoholistic" |
|
| Title: Re: Neoholistic (ot politics) |
31 Oct 2004 08:20:03 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Janithor wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Whiskers wrote:
X-No-Archive: Yes
On 2004-10-29, Janithor <Janithor@comcast.net> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
neoholistic wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Janithor wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Why are they still trying to get you guys? I thought you pulled
out of Iraq, therefore addressing the root cause of their anger?
Shouldn't they be leaving you alone now?
Looks like things are a /bit/ more complicated than that, doesn't it?
(Cannot write anymore right now)
Some here have said it's *ALL* about Israel. What's Spain's policy
towards the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Could that be it?
There isn't an "it". Terrorism has many origins and many expressions,
all unconnected with each other or even mutually antagonistic. Much
of the antagonism against the USA is indeed related to or aggravated
by the USA's
lack of even-handedness in its policy concerning the Holy Land, but there
are many other causes involved too, some involving the USA and some
(believe
it or not) having absolutely nothing to do with the USA (except
insofar as
the USA sometimes harbours the plotters, or funds them by buying illegal
drugs and fake goods).
The notion of a single global organisation plotting mayhem against the
US or "The West" is a fiction invented by politicians who like to have
the
populace afraid and cowed, and the weapons industry and military heavily
funded out of taxation. (Guess who funds the politicians... ). It
used to
be 'The Red Menace' but that fiction is no longer tenable so a new one
had
to be invented.
That's interesting, but I wasn't talking about the USA, I was talking
about Spain. But you do mention the West in passing, so I'm going to
assume what you're saying about the US applies to Spain as well? Or do
you think Spain a different case?
I agree, I don't think there is ever one single cause to something so
complex as this issue. Some here have asserted that terror is caused
solely by the Palestinian-Israeli conflict; after the Madrid bombings,
people were saying this happened because Spain was in Iraq. They left
Iraq I assume to be safer and less of a target to terror. I just found
it interesting that they are still be plotted against. Maybe leaving
Iraq did lessen their profile, I don't know, but it doesn't look like it
fully stopped the threat.
Why would they still be targeting Spain? I really have no idea. The
only thing I can think is that they are going to continue to retaliate
for Spain pursuing the people responsible for 3/11. They plot to
revenge any arrests/deaths, Spain hunts them down creating more
arrests/deaths, they plot to avenge THESE arrests/deaths, and so it
goes. I don't know. Other than that, why would they go after Spain?
Good question. Why, indeed, if Spain:
a) doesn't have much of an influence on the USA, NATO, the EU, or
anywhere else for that matter,
b) is often very critical on Israel (on the Palestinian conflict issue),
c) has retired from Iraq, and
d) isn't precisely a military power, let alone one hostile to the Arab
world (under the present government anyway).
Hence my previous answer. My guess is, "Spain is vulnerable". Sharing a
border with Morocco, it's got a fairly large Moroccian immigrant
community which can provide cover (and provide with a support network)
to terrorist groups, and they can retreat back to Morocco if things get
too hard without much trouble (the coasts are under constant
surveillance, using just every method conceivable - even at least one of
our Hispasats, but it's simply far too long - it's impossible to avoid
people sneaking in & out). Note that I'm not suggesting that the
Moroccian community actively supports terrorism in any form.
That doesn't give an answer to what the motivations behind the attacks
may be, though. Apparently, this is a disconcerting issue even for the
experts researching on it. The terrorists themselves mentioned the
support to the Iraq invasion, the troops in Afghanistan, and the
"stealing" of Al-Andalus (the fact that we were here already before they
invaded us in the first place seems irrelevant, under their pov anyway).
Somehow none of these sound convincing to me in the least.
About your other question, Spain tries to keep 'neutral' on the
Israel-Palestine conflict - 'neutral' here being understood in a
rather lax sense; we slant towards Israel, among other reasons
because the plain fact is that the Arab states /did/ attack Israel,
and there /are/ Palestinian terrorists. This is a complicated issue,
though. I asked a friend of mine (a historian) about what our official
policy is on this subject. Our support to Israel - even if they have
repeteadly violated several ONU resolutions, and committed atrocities
against the Palestinians - is mostly due to reasons of "national
interest" (what else, of course). During our 40+ years of almost total
international isolation, Spain didn't even recognise Israel (remember
Franco was an ally of Hitler). After we opened back to the rest of the
world, we needed desperately to renormalise our relations with our
neighbours - the rest of the "Western" world, actually - and that
implied going with the consensus; the fact that the Arab world - and
especially Palestine - are doing a terrible job of "selling" their cause
(not the least due to the terrible way they treat their own citizens)
has a lot to do with it, too. However, Sharon's policies are very
critisised by both most political parties and the people as a whole -
there's deep popular sympathy for the "Palestinian cause" atm (but also
condemnation towards the slaughtering of innocent Israeli civilians).
I'm too tired to think clearly atm, but I think that's enough for you
to get the idea.
--
Please keep the 'x-no-archive: yes' header.
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