| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"Thomas Dehn" |
| Date: |
08 Dec 2005 03:08:41 PM |
| Object: |
One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
x-no-archive: yes
The CIA have abducted three German citizens,
Khaled al Masri, Mohammed Haydar Zammar
(the CIA shipped him to Damaskus),
and Murat Kurnaz (the CIA shipped
him to Guantanamo). Al Masri is clearly innocent,
Kurnaz is pretty surely innocent, too, while Zammar
had contacts to Atta, and thus might not be innocent.
Or, in simple words, only one of the three
German citizens the CIA have abducted
looks guilty.
While this is a small sample only, I now
wonder what overall fraction of the terrorist
suspects the CIA abducted in recent years
are completely innocent.
Thomas
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| User: "kali" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
08 Dec 2005 04:44:04 PM |
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It is a mark of how far WE have fallen, that we can abridge the
principle of "innocent until proven guilty." ALL these people are
innocent...and there is an extra reason for emphasizing this fact:
that when one speaks of the CIA, one is speaking of an agency that
views the truth as an utterly malleable element.
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
08 Dec 2005 05:16:53 PM |
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On 8 Dec 2005 14:44:04 -0800, "kali" <dravazed@w-link.net> wrote:
It is a mark of how far WE have fallen, that we can abridge the
principle of "innocent until proven guilty." ALL these people are
innocent...and there is an extra reason for emphasizing this fact:
that when one speaks of the CIA, one is speaking of an agency that
views the truth as an utterly malleable element.
Innocent until proven guilty is a concept for civilians, not for military
combatants. That isn't to say that some civilians aren't involved. That
happens in war. But the only ones that are covered by a presumption of
innocence are American citizens.
The case of Jose Pedilla is the only one that bothers me at all - because
he's an American dirtbag, not a foreign dirtbag.
It's an easy thing to fix though. Empty out Guantanamo and ship them all
back to Afghanistan. Let's see how long they live.
--
PEACE, n. In international affairs, a period of cheating between two
periods of fighting.
- Ambrose Bierce
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
09 Dec 2005 12:27:21 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On 8 Dec 2005 14:44:04 -0800, "kali" <dravazed@w-link.net> wrote:
It is a mark of how far WE have fallen, that we can abridge the
principle of "innocent until proven guilty." ALL these people are
innocent...and there is an extra reason for emphasizing this fact:
that when one speaks of the CIA, one is speaking of an agency that
views the truth as an utterly malleable element.
Innocent until proven guilty is a concept for civilians, not for military
combatants.
A German citizen who is on vacation in Macedonia or Morocco
is not a "military combatant". Not even if his last name is Masri
while the CIA are hunting for a terrorist whose last name is Marsi.
Thomas
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
09 Dec 2005 11:59:03 AM |
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On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 07:27:21 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On 8 Dec 2005 14:44:04 -0800, "kali" <dravazed@w-link.net> wrote:
It is a mark of how far WE have fallen, that we can abridge the
principle of "innocent until proven guilty." ALL these people are
innocent...and there is an extra reason for emphasizing this fact:
that when one speaks of the CIA, one is speaking of an agency that
views the truth as an utterly malleable element.
Innocent until proven guilty is a concept for civilians, not for military
combatants.
A German citizen who is on vacation in Macedonia or Morocco
is not a "military combatant". Not even if his last name is Masri
while the CIA are hunting for a terrorist whose last name is Marsi.
I was speaking of the majority of detainees. Besides, how can you be so
callous towards ACI agents who are obviously dyslexic?
--
OMEN, n. A sign that something will happen if nothing happens.
- Ambrose Bierce
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
09 Dec 2005 12:41:18 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 07:27:21 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On 8 Dec 2005 14:44:04 -0800, "kali" <dravazed@w-link.net> wrote:
It is a mark of how far WE have fallen, that we can abridge the
principle of "innocent until proven guilty." ALL these people are
innocent...and there is an extra reason for emphasizing this fact:
that when one speaks of the CIA, one is speaking of an agency that
views the truth as an utterly malleable element.
Innocent until proven guilty is a concept for civilians, not for military
combatants.
A German citizen who is on vacation in Macedonia or Morocco
is not a "military combatant". Not even if his last name is Masri
while the CIA are hunting for a terrorist whose last name is Marsi.
I was speaking of the majority of detainees.
Having some military combatants in some prisons
still does not give the CIA any right to abduct
anybody.
Thomas
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
09 Dec 2005 02:48:45 PM |
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On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 19:41:18 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
I was speaking of the majority of detainees.
Having some military combatants in some prisons
still does not give the CIA any right to abduct
anybody.
That depends. What is the law concerning such things in the countries from
which they were abducted?
--
OATH, n. In law, a solemn appeal to the Deity, made binding upon the
conscience by a penalty for perjury.
- Ambrose Bierce
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
10 Dec 2005 01:10:01 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 19:41:18 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
I was speaking of the majority of detainees.
Having some military combatants in some prisons
still does not give the CIA any right to abduct
anybody.
That depends. What is the law concerning such things
in the countries from which they were abducted?
Its illegal pretty much everywhere.
I think there is an exception in some weird Texas law
which would allow kidnapping any Kennedy, but
I am not sure.
Thomas
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| User: "bunny" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
10 Dec 2005 09:58:55 AM |
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"Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de> wrote in message
news:3vvf9aF17knsgU1@individual.net...
x-no-archive: yes
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 19:41:18 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
I was speaking of the majority of detainees.
Having some military combatants in some prisons
still does not give the CIA any right to abduct
anybody.
That depends. What is the law concerning such things
in the countries from which they were abducted?
Its illegal pretty much everywhere.
I think there is an exception in some weird Texas law
which would allow kidnapping any Kennedy, but
I am not sure.
Some genius in the current government put Senator Ted Kennedy on our
country's No Fly list, and they took their own sweet time taking him off,
too, even after being asked numerous times to remove him. There's
Washington efficiency for you! :-)
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| User: "Charles" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
10 Dec 2005 10:26:04 AM |
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On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 15:58:55 GMT, "bunny"
<bunnynospam@nospam.blarg.net> wrote:
"Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de> wrote in message
news:3vvf9aF17knsgU1@individual.net...
x-no-archive: yes
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 19:41:18 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
I was speaking of the majority of detainees.
Having some military combatants in some prisons
still does not give the CIA any right to abduct
anybody.
That depends. What is the law concerning such things
in the countries from which they were abducted?
Its illegal pretty much everywhere.
I think there is an exception in some weird Texas law
which would allow kidnapping any Kennedy, but
I am not sure.
Some genius in the current government put Senator Ted Kennedy on our
country's No Fly list, and they took their own sweet time taking him off,
too, even after being asked numerous times to remove him. There's
Washington efficiency for you! :-)
That wasn't for terrorism, it was because he kept tipping the plane to
one side or the other.
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| User: "bunny" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
10 Dec 2005 10:52:03 PM |
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"Charles" <ckraft@SPAMTRAP.west.net> wrote in message
news:1c0mp110jluf0cfu7jmdg63p3j05dsbqt6@4ax.com...
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 15:58:55 GMT, "bunny"
<bunnynospam@nospam.blarg.net> wrote:
"Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de> wrote in message
news:3vvf9aF17knsgU1@individual.net...
x-no-archive: yes
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 19:41:18 +0100, "Thomas Dehn"
<thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
I was speaking of the majority of detainees.
Having some military combatants in some prisons
still does not give the CIA any right to abduct
anybody.
That depends. What is the law concerning such things
in the countries from which they were abducted?
Its illegal pretty much everywhere.
I think there is an exception in some weird Texas law
which would allow kidnapping any Kennedy, but
I am not sure.
Some genius in the current government put Senator Ted Kennedy on our
country's No Fly list, and they took their own sweet time taking him off,
too, even after being asked numerous times to remove him. There's
Washington efficiency for you! :-)
That wasn't for terrorism, it was because he kept tipping the plane to
one side or the other.
I told this to my best friend and he had the *exact* same reaction that I
did -- he said "that's so mean!" and then started laughing. Hee! :-)
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| User: "%" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
10 Dec 2005 10:58:59 PM |
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boobs
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
10 Dec 2005 08:33:04 PM |
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On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 15:58:55 GMT, "bunny" <bunnynospam@nospam.blarg.net>
wrote:
Some genius in the current government put Senator Ted Kennedy on our
country's No Fly list, and they took their own sweet time taking him off,
too, even after being asked numerous times to remove him. There's
Washington efficiency for you! :-)
Ted Kennedy put Ted Kennedy on the watch list...
--
There's a basic human weakness inherent in all people which tempts them
to want what they can't have and not want what is readily available to
them.
- Robert J. Ringer
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| User: "bunny" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
10 Dec 2005 10:50:05 PM |
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"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
news:cu3np1pv214nah5bdgf2hvomqmq137a68t@news.easynews.com...
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 15:58:55 GMT, "bunny" <bunnynospam@nospam.blarg.net>
wrote:
Some genius in the current government put Senator Ted Kennedy on our
country's No Fly list, and they took their own sweet time taking him off,
too, even after being asked numerous times to remove him. There's
Washington efficiency for you! :-)
Ted Kennedy put Ted Kennedy on the watch list...
George Bush personally put Ted Kennedy on the watch list. There, now we
both just told a lie.
Hey, congratulations on the rugrat. Any day now, eh? I bet you'll make a
great dad. The important thing to remember is, take plenty of baby pictures
so you have something to show the kid's dates when he/she becomes a
teenager. That always goes over big!
.
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
11 Dec 2005 02:38:42 AM |
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On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 04:50:05 GMT, "bunny" <bunnynospam@nospam.blarg.net>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
news:cu3np1pv214nah5bdgf2hvomqmq137a68t@news.easynews.com...
Ted Kennedy put Ted Kennedy on the watch list...
George Bush personally put Ted Kennedy on the watch list. There, now we
both just told a lie.
Bush obviously had nothing to gain, and a lot to lose. Kennedy, on the
other hand, figured he had everything to gain. Do the math. Or we could
just chalk it all up to the general incompetence of civil servants.
Hey, congratulations on the rugrat. Any day now, eh? I bet you'll make a
great dad. The important thing to remember is, take plenty of baby pictures
so you have something to show the kid's dates when he/she becomes a
teenager. That always goes over big!
Apparently any day now. My wife thinks her mucous plug broke loose.
--
"'Stupid' means one thing: threatening to the interests of the Democratic
Party. The more Conservative the Republican, the more vicious and
hysterical the attacks on his intelligence will be."
- Ann Coulter
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| User: "bunny" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
11 Dec 2005 01:53:24 PM |
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"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
news:26pnp1ttaiibuqn774heeni1i6b1hq6mfe@news.easynews.com...
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 04:50:05 GMT, "bunny" <bunnynospam@nospam.blarg.net>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
news:cu3np1pv214nah5bdgf2hvomqmq137a68t@news.easynews.com...
Ted Kennedy put Ted Kennedy on the watch list...
George Bush personally put Ted Kennedy on the watch list. There, now we
both just told a lie.
Bush obviously had nothing to gain, and a lot to lose. Kennedy, on the
other hand, figured he had everything to gain. Do the math. Or we could
just chalk it all up to the general incompetence of civil servants.
I'm going to give you enough credit to know that senators don't put people
on no-fly lists, that this was already well-covered in the news and the
government apologized for screwing up and taking so long to get him off the
list he was erroneously put on (yes, of course it was a governmental
screwup), and that you're kidding about your fantasy scenario rather than
actually entertaining it as a possibility -- I don't see you as that dumb.
Besides, fantasy scenarios are fun. It's not like I haven't pretended that
Martin Sheen was president for the odd hour or two on Wednesday nights when
Sorkin was in charge. If Kennedy fantasies get you through the day, go for
it! I thought Charles' was amusing. :-)
Apropos of nothing, individuals *can* get themselves put on an airline's
poop list. Try threatening the life of a reservation agent and see what
happens when you show up at the gate -- what are these people thinking?
Apparently any day now. My wife thinks her mucous plug broke loose.
Oh my god! That's huge! So you might even be a dad by tomorrow! Have you
guys got the bags packed? Are you staying in the waiting room or going in
for the birth? Excited or scared? Both? That's just fantastic. Best of
luck to both of you. Too cool!!
.
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| User: "Hexe" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
08 Dec 2005 11:24:04 PM |
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On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:08:41 +0100, "Thomas Dehn"
<thomas-usenet@arcor.de> wrote:
While this is a small sample only, I now
wonder what overall fraction of the terrorist
suspects the CIA abducted in recent years
are completely innocent.
Thomas
Thomas, be thankful, like me, that we have Angela instead. Our worst is
better than their best.
I know I'm being an ostrich but I am not capable of all the anger
reading about things that shouldn't happen but do causes me. Simple
solution; I do not watch any news channels/programs generated from the
USA, I do not watch any news channels, I do not watch any news.
Reading stories like these and other injustices, atrocities, etc. makes
me want to KILL, but then I would be just like them, but I'd be the one
going to prison.
--
:Hexe
: Thought for the journey:
"They never burned witches," said Granny. "Probably they burned some old ladies who spoke up or couldn't run away. I wouldn't look for witches bein' burned," she added, shifting position. "I might look for witches doin' the burning, though. We ain't all nice." --Omnian History
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
09 Dec 2005 12:28:59 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"Hexe" <holmsepp@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:08:41 +0100, "Thomas Dehn"
<thomas-usenet@arcor.de> wrote:
While this is a small sample only, I now
wonder what overall fraction of the terrorist
suspects the CIA abducted in recent years
are completely innocent.
Thomas, be thankful, like me, that we have Angela instead. Our worst is
better than their best.
I disagree. I think that Sweet Angie Merkel is likely
to simply follow orders from Washington.
I thus recommend that all German males age 16-30
look up where Iraq, Iran, and Syria are.
Thomas
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| User: "Janithor" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
08 Dec 2005 11:48:46 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Hexe wrote:
On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:08:41 +0100, "Thomas Dehn"
<thomas-usenet@arcor.de> wrote:
While this is a small sample only, I now
wonder what overall fraction of the terrorist
suspects the CIA abducted in recent years
are completely innocent.
Thomas
Thomas, be thankful, like me, that we have Angela instead. Our worst is
better than their best.
I know I'm being an ostrich but I am not capable of all the anger
reading about things that shouldn't happen but do causes me. Simple
solution; I do not watch any news channels/programs generated from the
USA, I do not watch any news channels, I do not watch any news.
Reading stories like these and other injustices, atrocities, etc. makes
me want to KILL, but then I would be just like them, but I'd be the one
going to prison.
Yeah, that's kinda how we feel when we hear stories about
state-sponsered rape rooms, people being tossed into shredding machines,
little children being shot in the back, and seeing innocent civilians
have their heads sawed off as they scream for their lives.
.
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
08 Dec 2005 04:30:22 PM |
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On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:08:41 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
Or, in simple words, only one of the three
German citizens the CIA have abducted
looks guilty.
While this is a small sample only, I now
wonder what overall fraction of the terrorist
suspects the CIA abducted in recent years
are completely innocent.
Not just a small sample, but a handpicked sample designed specifically to
make you question all cases. You know better than that.
--
CONTEMPT, n. The feeling of a prudent man for an enemy who is too
formidable safely to be opposed.
- Ambrose Bierce
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
09 Dec 2005 12:28:22 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:08:41 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
Or, in simple words, only one of the three
German citizens the CIA have abducted
looks guilty.
While this is a small sample only, I now
wonder what overall fraction of the terrorist
suspects the CIA abducted in recent years
are completely innocent.
Not just a small sample, but a handpicked sample designed specifically to
make you question all cases.
Its the sample of German citizens known
to have been abducted by the CIA in recent years.
Know any others German citizens
abducted by the CIA in recent years?
Thomas
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
09 Dec 2005 12:01:43 PM |
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On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 07:28:22 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
Not just a small sample, but a handpicked sample designed specifically to
make you question all cases.
Its the sample of German citizens known
to have been abducted by the CIA in recent years.
Know any others German citizens
abducted by the CIA in recent years?
No, and neither do you. So why then did you say that it makes you question
the innocence of all the other detainees?
--
ADMIRATION, n. Our polite recognition of another's resemblance to
ourselves.
- Ambrose Bierce
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
09 Dec 2005 12:43:50 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 07:28:22 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
Not just a small sample, but a handpicked sample designed specifically to
make you question all cases.
Its the sample of German citizens known
to have been abducted by the CIA in recent years.
Know any others German citizens
abducted by the CIA in recent years?
No, and neither do you. So why then did you say that it makes you question
the innocence of all the other detainees?
I said I wonder what overall fraction of the terrorist
suspects the CIA abducted in recent years
are completely innocent.
The word "abducted" should not be too difficult
to understand. I am pretty sure that you would
be very much ***** if European countries
started to abduct innocent US citizens, and shipped those
US citizens to prisons in 3rd world countries and torture
them there.
Thomas
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
09 Dec 2005 02:50:52 PM |
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On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 19:43:50 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
No, and neither do you. So why then did you say that it makes you question
the innocence of all the other detainees?
I said I wonder what overall fraction of the terrorist
suspects the CIA abducted in recent years
are completely innocent.
The word "abducted" should not be too difficult
to understand. I am pretty sure that you would
be very much ***** if European countries
started to abduct innocent US citizens, and shipped those
US citizens to prisons in 3rd world countries and torture
them there.
The terminology makes it difficult. It seems that many Europeans feel that
*all* the detainees are abductees.
And I'm sure that many European countries do plenty of cloak and dagger
things.
--
The second item in the liberal creed, after self-righteousness, is
unaccountability. Liberals have invented whole college majors - psychology,
sociology, women's studies - to prove that nothing is anybody's fault. No
one is fond of taking responsibility for his actions, but consider how much
you'd have to hate free will to come up with a political platform that
advocates killing unborn babies but not convicted murderers. A callous
pragmatist might favor abortion and capital punishment. A devout Christian
would sanction neither. But it takes years of therapy to arrive at the
liberal view.
- P.J. O'Rourke, Give War A Chance (1992)
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
10 Dec 2005 01:43:36 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 19:43:50 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
No, and neither do you. So why then did you say that it makes you question
the innocence of all the other detainees?
I said I wonder what overall fraction of the terrorist
suspects the CIA abducted in recent years
are completely innocent.
The word "abducted" should not be too difficult
to understand. I am pretty sure that you would
be very much ***** if European countries
started to abduct innocent US citizens, and shipped those
US citizens to prisons in 3rd world countries and torture
them there.
The terminology makes it difficult. It seems that many Europeans feel that
*all* the detainees are abductees.
No, of course not. It is not public knowledge what fraction of CIA
detainees are abductees. Of course that number also depends on whom
of those detainees you consider to be CIA detainees.
But the problem remains that the CIA has abducted a considerable
number of innocent people, even citiziens of allied countries,
and continues to do so. It also takes the CIA an awfully long time
to release those innocents.
Lets say the MI5 abducted 10 US citizens, claiming they were
terrorists. It later turned out that five of those 10 US citizens
were completely innocent, and its a total mystery why the
MI5 ever became interested in them at all. The five other
US citizens in MI5 custody are never being charged for anything.
What impression whould that create? Certainly not the impression
that the MI5 had caught five US citizens who arer terrorists.
Thomas
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
10 Dec 2005 02:27:44 AM |
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On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 08:43:36 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
The terminology makes it difficult. It seems that many Europeans feel that
*all* the detainees are abductees.
No, of course not. It is not public knowledge what fraction of CIA
detainees are abductees. Of course that number also depends on whom
of those detainees you consider to be CIA detainees.
But the problem remains that the CIA has abducted a considerable
number of innocent people, even citiziens of allied countries,
and continues to do so. It also takes the CIA an awfully long time
to release those innocents.
Lets say the MI5 abducted 10 US citizens, claiming they were
terrorists. It later turned out that five of those 10 US citizens
were completely innocent, and its a total mystery why the
MI5 ever became interested in them at all. The five other
US citizens in MI5 custody are never being charged for anything.
What impression whould that create? Certainly not the impression
that the MI5 had caught five US citizens who arer terrorists.
I have a hard time imagining there being many Smith's and Jones's on any
countries terrorist watch lists.
--
The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by
the Prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the
government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be
enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this
country is closely connected with this.
- Albert Einstein, My First Impression of the U.S.A., 1921
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| User: "bunny" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
10 Dec 2005 09:55:40 AM |
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"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
news:j94lp1t4nd6lmlaf3efar0j5bbs9ugc4dq@news.easynews.com...
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 08:43:36 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
The terminology makes it difficult. It seems that many Europeans feel
that
*all* the detainees are abductees.
No, of course not. It is not public knowledge what fraction of CIA
detainees are abductees. Of course that number also depends on whom
of those detainees you consider to be CIA detainees.
But the problem remains that the CIA has abducted a considerable
number of innocent people, even citiziens of allied countries,
and continues to do so. It also takes the CIA an awfully long time
to release those innocents.
Lets say the MI5 abducted 10 US citizens, claiming they were
terrorists. It later turned out that five of those 10 US citizens
were completely innocent, and its a total mystery why the
MI5 ever became interested in them at all. The five other
US citizens in MI5 custody are never being charged for anything.
What impression whould that create? Certainly not the impression
that the MI5 had caught five US citizens who arer terrorists.
I have a hard time imagining there being many Smith's and Jones's on any
countries terrorist watch lists.
How about a Thompson? I went to school with James Thompson. We were in
student government together. Ever heard of James Ujama? Same guy. Nice
mama, decent family. I wouldn't have imagined it either. I didn't
*believe* it at first. James tried to open a terrorist training camp in
Oregon?
We've got people here who deserve to be on other countries' terrorist watch
lists.
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
10 Dec 2005 12:29:04 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"bunny" <bunnynospam@nospam.blarg.net> wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
I have a hard time imagining there being many Smith's and Jones's on any
countries terrorist watch lists.
How about a Thompson? I went to school with James Thompson. We were in
student government together. Ever heard of James Ujama? Same guy. Nice
mama, decent family. I wouldn't have imagined it either. I didn't
*believe* it at first. James tried to open a terrorist training camp in
Oregon?
There is a dreadful principle at work here which works as follows:
The authorities do not want to stir too much trouble
among their own population, that would risk losing
the next election. Sometimes investigators agree with
the political goals of the terrorists, or get money from
the same groups which supported the terrorists. Under such circumstances,
there simply is no deep investigation of those terrorists' background.
(You can see the same principle at work with
mafia activities in Russia or southern Italy,
or on neo nazi violence against foreigners in
certain parts of Germany).
Thus people like the Una bomber, McVeigh, Klebold
and Harris, etc., are branded as individual lunatics.
Thomas
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
10 Dec 2005 06:10:08 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 08:43:36 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
Lets say the MI5 abducted 10 US citizens, claiming they were
terrorists. It later turned out that five of those 10 US citizens
were completely innocent, and its a total mystery why the
MI5 ever became interested in them at all. The five other
US citizens in MI5 custody are never being charged for anything.
What impression whould that create? Certainly not the impression
that the MI5 had caught five US citizens who arer terrorists.
I have a hard time imagining there being many Smith's and Jones's on any
countries terrorist watch lists.
Surely anybody who ever gave money to Noraid must be
a terrorist, no? And of course also anybody who went to
the same church as somebody who ever gave money to Noraid.
Thomas
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| User: "Janithor" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
08 Dec 2005 11:55:13 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Thomas Dehn wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
The CIA have abducted three German citizens,
Khaled al Masri, Mohammed Haydar Zammar
(the CIA shipped him to Damaskus),
and Murat Kurnaz (the CIA shipped
him to Guantanamo). Al Masri is clearly innocent,
Kurnaz is pretty surely innocent, too, while Zammar
had contacts to Atta, and thus might not be innocent.
Or, in simple words, only one of the three
German citizens the CIA have abducted
looks guilty.
While this is a small sample only, I now
wonder what overall fraction of the terrorist
suspects the CIA abducted in recent years
are completely innocent.
Thomas
I trust them a lot more than I trust you, Thomas. No offense. But
yeah, the CIA and the entire national security apparatus of this country
has some big gaping holes that need to be seriously improved.
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| User: "%" |
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| Title: Re: One out of three (spoiler: politics) |
09 Dec 2005 12:00:15 AM |
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"Janithor" <Janithor@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:43991C3E.4070002@comcast.net...
x-no-archive: yes
Thomas Dehn wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
The CIA have abducted three German citizens,
Khaled al Masri, Mohammed Haydar Zammar
(the CIA shipped him to Damaskus),
and Murat Kurnaz (the CIA shipped
him to Guantanamo). Al Masri is clearly innocent,
Kurnaz is pretty surely innocent, too, while Zammar
had contacts to Atta, and thus might not be innocent.
Or, in simple words, only one of the three
German citizens the CIA have abducted
looks guilty.
While this is a small sample only, I now
wonder what overall fraction of the terrorist
suspects the CIA abducted in recent years
are completely innocent.
Thomas
I trust them a lot more than I trust you, Thomas. No offense. But
yeah, the CIA and the entire national security apparatus of this country
has some big gaping holes that need to be seriously improved.
Canada's national security is perfect , we have none so it can't go wrong
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