| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"Luna" |
| Date: |
18 Dec 2003 06:59:32 AM |
| Object: |
Overthrowing Governments |
I never do political, but this is
Here are some excerpts from a philosophy essay - Title, The Western
Man's Burden - Revised for a New Millennium.
"Although it's so obvious I feel awkward pointing it out, we can greatly
increase the happiness of individuals living under oppressive regimes by
forcibly removing their oppressor. There are few people living in the
third world who are content with their governments and social structure,
a fact clearly illustrated by the thousands of refugees streaming out to
escape from them. Overthrowing this governments and replacing them with
constitutional democracies will increase the quality of life of
residents of Third World countries on a magnitude that could not even be
approached through traditional methods of Foreign Aid."
[...]
"You'll often hear people argue against interfering in the cultural
values of other nations on the basis that doing so is "cultural
genocide", a phase which implies that culture possesses inherent worth
on its own, regardless of the experiences of the individuals who make up
the culture. I doubt anyone would seriously argue that cultures are
somehow capable of feeling pleasure or pain, yet so much debate around
this matter concerns itself with the welfare of cultures, as opposed to
the individuals within them - who can experience pain and pleasure".
Random tidbits:
"People who are rich and free rarely feel the need to blow up planes,
buildings and cities".
"The world would probably be a better place if everyone had the
opportunity to exercise their god given freedom to put ex-pro wrestlers
and aging action heroes in public office (...)"
On the obliteration of other cultures by removing oppressive
governments:
"For example the Americans completely occupied the Japanese mainland for
years and today, Japanese culture is still just as distinct (weird) as
any other nation's on the planet. It is definitely possible to modify
unsavory aspects of foreign cultures without decimating the aspects that
should be protected.
The sentiment is nice...really it is. Ride in our shiny tanks, shoot
all the bad guys and leave a trail of Parliaments and stock exchanges in
our wake."
Oh, and one more crucial thought. "Cultural values are not subjective.
The cultural values of some regions are far superior to others."
--
¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:-
-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*
"Everyone gets the war they deserve."
Jean Paul Sartre
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| User: "Teilhard Knight" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
19 Dec 2003 10:41:58 AM |
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"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:brs8bd$6r2aj$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de...
I never do political, but this is
Here are some excerpts from a philosophy essay - Title, The Western
Man's Burden - Revised for a New Millennium.
"Although it's so obvious I feel awkward pointing it out, we can greatly
increase the happiness of individuals living under oppressive regimes by
forcibly removing their oppressor. There are few people living in the
third world who are content with their governments and social structure,
a fact clearly illustrated by the thousands of refugees streaming out to
escape from them. Overthrowing this governments and replacing them with
constitutional democracies will increase the quality of life of
residents of Third World countries on a magnitude that could not even be
approached through traditional methods of Foreign Aid."
[...]
"You'll often hear people argue against interfering in the cultural
values of other nations on the basis that doing so is "cultural
genocide", a phase which implies that culture possesses inherent worth
on its own, regardless of the experiences of the individuals who make up
the culture. I doubt anyone would seriously argue that cultures are
somehow capable of feeling pleasure or pain, yet so much debate around
this matter concerns itself with the welfare of cultures, as opposed to
the individuals within them - who can experience pain and pleasure".
Random tidbits:
"People who are rich and free rarely feel the need to blow up planes,
buildings and cities".
"The world would probably be a better place if everyone had the
opportunity to exercise their god given freedom to put ex-pro wrestlers
and aging action heroes in public office (...)"
On the obliteration of other cultures by removing oppressive
governments:
"For example the Americans completely occupied the Japanese mainland for
years and today, Japanese culture is still just as distinct (weird) as
any other nation's on the planet. It is definitely possible to modify
unsavory aspects of foreign cultures without decimating the aspects that
should be protected.
The sentiment is nice...really it is. Ride in our shiny tanks, shoot
all the bad guys and leave a trail of Parliaments and stock exchanges in
our wake."
Oh, and one more crucial thought. "Cultural values are not subjective.
The cultural values of some regions are far superior to others."
Have you noticed that the Europeans have remained quiet in this discussion,
except Thomas.
For me, an because the mentioned "Cultural Values", an European country
would be my election for where to live. Whenever you want to see culture
which astonishes you, just go to Trafalgar Square, walk along Oxford street,
etc. In Paris, you can also get to breathtaking places with history of more
centuries than both hands fingers can count.
Europeans do not need to compare their country to others, they simply
wouldn't emigrate to the US. Of course they are exceptions, but it is not a
flood of Europeans trying to get in.
--
Teilhard Knight
The Extraterrestrial
Change "privacy" for "softhome" if you want to intrude my inbox
.
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| User: "neoholistic" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
19 Dec 2003 04:47:02 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Teilhard Knight wrote:
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:brs8bd$6r2aj$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de...
I never do political, but this is
Here are some excerpts from a philosophy essay - Title, The Western
Man's Burden - Revised for a New Millennium.
"Although it's so obvious I feel awkward pointing it out, we can greatly
increase the happiness of individuals living under oppressive regimes by
forcibly removing their oppressor. There are few people living in the
third world who are content with their governments and social structure,
a fact clearly illustrated by the thousands of refugees streaming out to
escape from them. Overthrowing this governments and replacing them with
constitutional democracies will increase the quality of life of
residents of Third World countries on a magnitude that could not even be
approached through traditional methods of Foreign Aid."
[...]
"You'll often hear people argue against interfering in the cultural
values of other nations on the basis that doing so is "cultural
genocide", a phase which implies that culture possesses inherent worth
on its own, regardless of the experiences of the individuals who make up
the culture. I doubt anyone would seriously argue that cultures are
somehow capable of feeling pleasure or pain, yet so much debate around
this matter concerns itself with the welfare of cultures, as opposed to
the individuals within them - who can experience pain and pleasure".
Random tidbits:
"People who are rich and free rarely feel the need to blow up planes,
buildings and cities".
"The world would probably be a better place if everyone had the
opportunity to exercise their god given freedom to put ex-pro wrestlers
and aging action heroes in public office (...)"
On the obliteration of other cultures by removing oppressive
governments:
"For example the Americans completely occupied the Japanese mainland for
years and today, Japanese culture is still just as distinct (weird) as
any other nation's on the planet. It is definitely possible to modify
unsavory aspects of foreign cultures without decimating the aspects that
should be protected.
The sentiment is nice...really it is. Ride in our shiny tanks, shoot
all the bad guys and leave a trail of Parliaments and stock exchanges in
our wake."
Oh, and one more crucial thought. "Cultural values are not subjective.
The cultural values of some regions are far superior to others."
Have you noticed that the Europeans have remained quiet in this discussion,
except Thomas.
For me, an because the mentioned "Cultural Values", an European country
would be my election for where to live. Whenever you want to see culture
which astonishes you, just go to Trafalgar Square, walk along Oxford street,
etc. In Paris, you can also get to breathtaking places with history of more
centuries than both hands fingers can count.
Europeans do not need to compare their country to others, they simply
wouldn't emigrate to the US. Of course they are exceptions, but it is not a
flood of Europeans trying to get in.
Certainly, I wouldn't.
Among other reasons, I prefer a place where there is freedom, and the USA doesn't fit that description.
And if what I want is a prosperous nation, any choice in the EU will do (the one I live in is a good example... not to mention places like Germany, or let alone Norway whose GDP per capita is far greater than that of the USA).
Of course, let's better don't mention the culture.
I won't discuss other issues like social injustice, extreme levels of violence or pissing off other people and forcing them to bomb USA embassies (how many times have the embassies or foreign interests of Canada, Denmark or Portugal, all of them free countries that defend the ideals of democracy, freedom of speech, et cetera, been bombed by "terrorists"?).
How many times will I have to tell this? THE USA HAS OVERTHROWN DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENTS AND SUPPORTED DICTATORS ALL OVER THE WORLD. IT IS A TERRORIST NATION IF THERE'S ANY IN THIS PLANET.
It's getting really boring, repeating the same over and over.
--
To reach me by email: transform my account name like IBM -> HAL.
.
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| User: "Nom dePlume nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
20 Dec 2003 12:07:50 AM |
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"neoholistic" <ekqbwpo@terra.es> wrote in message
news:brvuji$84k06$1@ID-205152.news.uni-berlin.de...
x-no-archive: yes
It's getting really boring, repeating the same over and over.
If it's any consolation, it's just as boring listening to you repeat
it.
--
Nom dePlume, Ph.D
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
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| User: "Teilhard Knight" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
18 Dec 2003 08:05:46 AM |
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The cultural values of some regions are far superior to others."
And I suppose the cultural values of America are at the very top of the rest
of countries of the world. If not, this article is an authorization to
invade it. By the way, who is to decide what countries deserve to live and
what to die? I've noticed that whenever there is something to grab from one
country, it is an oppressor.
Excuse me, I am going to get me my McDonalds of the day.
--
Teilhard Knight
The Extraterrestrial
Change "privacy" for "softhome" if you want to intrude my inbox
.
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| User: "Luna" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
18 Dec 2003 08:32:50 AM |
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"Teilhard Knight" <teilhk@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:brsc7t$6migt$1@ID-140630.news.uni-berlin.de...
The cultural values of some regions are far superior to others."
And I suppose the cultural values of America are at the very top of
the rest
of countries of the world.
Yes, it is, that doesn't mean it's perfect or even all that great. But,
free markets, freedom of speech, democratic process, wealth, prosperity,
all of these make it one of the best places to live in the world.
If not, this article is an authorization to
invade it. By the way, who is to decide what countries deserve to live
and
what to die? I've noticed that whenever there is something to grab
from one
country, it is an oppressor.
Well, you could say that in many cases it's pretty obvious. We'll take
the Taliban for example, and what they did to the woman in Afghanistan.
Or what Hussein did to thousands of Iraqis...or what Hitler did to the
Jews or...the examples are abundant.
Excuse me, I am going to get me my McDonalds of the day.
Happy Meals for everyone!
Jean
--
Teilhard Knight
The Extraterrestrial
Change "privacy" for "softhome" if you want to intrude my inbox
.
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| User: "alvintchase" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
18 Dec 2003 04:38:39 PM |
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"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<brsdqc$71s1k$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"Teilhard Knight" <teilhk@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:brsc7t$6migt$1@ID-140630.news.uni-berlin.de...
The cultural values of some regions are far superior to others."
And I suppose the cultural values of America are at the very top of
the rest
of countries of the world.
Yes, it is, that doesn't mean it's perfect or even all that great. But,
free markets, freedom of speech, democratic process, wealth, prosperity,
all of these make it one of the best places to live in the world.
As an ideal these things are good I guess,but in many ways we have
a long way to go in making these ideals a reality.Especially since
September,11th,2001,I think we have been going backwards in many
ways(free speach,and the democratic process especially,and though the
economy is improving,we still have so many poor,and middle class
people who should be helping out alot more...)I think also that it
would be good if we could let go of "patriotism" being seen as an
important thing,and have it be much more important to feel a sense of
oneness with the whole world...
.
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| User: "Nom dePlume nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
18 Dec 2003 11:55:17 PM |
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"alvintchase" <relayer211@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1029ba7.0312181438.2ac0b9e8@posting.google.com...
ideal these things are good I guess,but in many ways we have
a long way to go in making these ideals a reality.Especially since
September,11th,2001,I think we have been going backwards in many
ways(free speach,and the democratic process especially,and though
the
economy is improving,we still have so many poor,and middle class
people who should be helping out alot more...)
I think also that it
would be good if we could let go of "patriotism" being seen as an
important thing,and have it be much more important to feel a sense
of
oneness with the whole world...
I couldn't disagree more. The US is a democratic republic, answerable
to US citizens through formalized means and governed by the rule of
law. Perfect? No, but a darn site better than the vast majority of
nations in the world. I am proud of this country, and patriotic,
because of what it stands for, what it does, and my own ability to
contribute to it and benefit from it.
Feeling a "sense of oneness" with the whole world is fine, if you are
talking about your own spiritual equilibrium. If you are talking about
allegiance to a "world government", kowtowing to international
bureaucracies, violating the Constitution by surrendering sovereignty
to "courts" stacked by Third-World dictators, forget it.
If you don't think this is a great country (and I'm not accusing you
personally of this; the "you" is generic), then name a better one, and
go live there.
--
Nom dePlume, Ph.D
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
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| User: "Luna" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
19 Dec 2003 07:08:10 AM |
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Nom dePlume wrote:
"alvintchase" <relayer211@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1029ba7.0312181438.2ac0b9e8@posting.google.com...
ideal these things are good I guess,but in many ways we have
a long way to go in making these ideals a reality.Especially since
September,11th,2001,I think we have been going backwards in many
ways(free speach,and the democratic process especially,and though the
economy is improving,we still have so many poor,and middle class
people who should be helping out alot more...)
I think also that it
would be good if we could let go of "patriotism" being seen as an
important thing,and have it be much more important to feel a sense of
oneness with the whole world...
I couldn't disagree more. The US is a democratic republic, answerable
to US citizens through formalized means and governed by the rule of
law. Perfect? No, but a darn site better than the vast majority of
nations in the world. I am proud of this country, and patriotic,
because of what it stands for, what it does, and my own ability to
contribute to it and benefit from it.
Feeling a "sense of oneness" with the whole world is fine, if you are
talking about your own spiritual equilibrium. If you are talking about
allegiance to a "world government", kowtowing to international
bureaucracies, violating the Constitution by surrendering sovereignty
to "courts" stacked by Third-World dictators, forget it.
If you don't think this is a great country (and I'm not accusing you
personally of this; the "you" is generic), then name a better one, and
go live there.
Canada is pretty good.
Why is the *ba bum* of so many responses to any complaints about their
own system (American) to go and live elsewhere? Isn't the right of
dissent one of those cherished ideals of yours? It seems so petulant
whenever I come across it. After all it's the people who are unhappy
with things who are most likely to change them, no? Complacency is
vastly overrated, even hailed as a virture, I think everyone should be
humming "I can't get no satisfaction" to themselves.
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
I had a button on my jean jacket that said that.
Jean
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| User: "Nom dePlume nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
19 Dec 2003 11:48:04 PM |
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"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:brut7h$7s70c$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de...
Nom dePlume wrote:
"alvintchase" <relayer211@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1029ba7.0312181438.2ac0b9e8@posting.google.com...
Canada is pretty good.
Why is the *ba bum* of so many responses to any complaints about
their
own system (American) to go and live elsewhere? Isn't the right of
dissent one of those cherished ideals of yours?
It's not a question of dissent. The idea is that people who live in
this country and talk about how awful it is, and how the US is
responsible for all the world's ills, should get out in the world and
get some basis for comparison.
It seems so petulant
whenever I come across it. After all it's the people who are
unhappy
with things who are most likely to change them, no?
To an extent, yes, but the unhappiness has to be grounded in reality
(not simply ideology) for anything useful to come about.
A lot of people get their validation in life from complaining, or even
hating, rather than creating. In the US, for example, the Civil Rights
and Women's Rights movements, as defined by their original
generations' goals, won their battles. This is good, but for those who
have invested a lot in the "struggle," declaring victory and going off
to do something else isn't vey satisfying. The next generation has to
become more extreme in order to justify the continuation of their
organizations.
Complacency is
vastly overrated, even hailed as a virture, I think everyone should
be
humming "I can't get no satisfaction" to themselves.
Eh? Complacency as a virtue? That's a new one for me.
--
Nom dePlume, Ph.D
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
.
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| User: "Luna" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
20 Dec 2003 08:31:20 AM |
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Nom dePlume wrote:
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:brut7h$7s70c$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de...
Nom dePlume wrote:
"alvintchase" <relayer211@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1029ba7.0312181438.2ac0b9e8@posting.google.com...
Canada is pretty good.
Why is the *ba bum* of so many responses to any complaints about
their own system (American) to go and live elsewhere? Isn't the
right of dissent one of those cherished ideals of yours?
It's not a question of dissent. The idea is that people who live in
this country and talk about how awful it is, and how the US is
responsible for all the world's ills, should get out in the world and
get some basis for comparison.
ah, well we don't all have the resources of a Sean Penn. Besides, the
same could be said for people who have the attitude that the US is some
kind of global White Knight. Of course, everyone else has opinions and
I have "knowledge". heh
It seems so petulant
whenever I come across it. After all it's the people who are unhappy
with things who are most likely to change them, no?
To an extent, yes, but the unhappiness has to be grounded in reality
(not simply ideology) for anything useful to come about.
True, but reality, sounds like it should be objective but it's really
not. Or at least, there are so many people insisting on their version
of what's reality that it makes you wonder about the meaninglessness of
the word itself. Even if one were to go around the world and see for
oneself what was going on, it would still be getting seen through eyes
attached to our white boy/girl brains, filtered through our experiences,
assumptions and prejudices.
A lot of people get their validation in life from complaining, or even
hating, rather than creating. In the US, for example, the Civil Rights
and Women's Rights movements, as defined by their original
generations' goals, won their battles. This is good, but for those who
have invested a lot in the "struggle," declaring victory and going off
to do something else isn't vey satisfying. The next generation has to
become more extreme in order to justify the continuation of their
organizations.
Yes! That paragraph can be applied to so much, not just organizations
but other systems, family, personal, political..
Complacency is
vastly overrated, even hailed as a virture, I think everyone should
be humming "I can't get no satisfaction" to themselves.
Eh? Complacency as a virtue? That's a new one for me.
What I meant was, people who object to what's been going on in the US
tend to get told to "just leave" or to "shut up", characterized as
unpatriotic, stupid (though unfortunately there is some pretty ignorant
rhetoric coming from both sides of the debate, at times). It just
strikes me that anything but agreement and support with what your
government is doing is subject to a heaping helping of hostility. Just
my impression. *shrug*
Jean
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
.
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| User: "alvintchase" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
18 Dec 2003 04:50:10 PM |
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"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<brsdqc$71s1k$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"Teilhard Knight" <teilhk@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:brsc7t$6migt$1@ID-140630.news.uni-berlin.de...
The cultural values of some regions are far superior to others."
And I suppose the cultural values of America are at the very top of
the rest
of countries of the world.
Yes, it is, that doesn't mean it's perfect or even all that great. But,
free markets, freedom of speech, democratic process, wealth, prosperity,
all of these make it one of the best places to live in the world.
sorry,I meant to say we have many poor and middle class people that
WE should be helping out more.(We meaning the goverment and all other
people.)
.
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| User: "Luna" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
18 Dec 2003 05:54:53 PM |
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"alvintchase" <relayer211@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1029ba7.0312181450.6e38c918@posting.google.com...
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<brsdqc$71s1k$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"Teilhard Knight" <teilhk@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:brsc7t$6migt$1@ID-140630.news.uni-berlin.de...
The cultural values of some regions are far superior to others."
And I suppose the cultural values of America are at the very top
of
the rest
of countries of the world.
Yes, it is, that doesn't mean it's perfect or even all that great.
But,
free markets, freedom of speech, democratic process, wealth,
prosperity,
all of these make it one of the best places to live in the world.
sorry,I meant to say we have many poor and middle class people that
WE should be helping out more.(We meaning the goverment and all other
people.)
The poorest person in your country is rich by many other country's
standards, Alvin. That is unsettling if you think beyond borders and
regard people as equally entitled to at least a standard of living that
doesn't involve starvation and various forms of brutality. There is
something wrong with a world that has one part struggling with obesity
while in other parts, they are dying in famines, eh? Here we get
plastic surgery, while there - children die of diseases like malaria
that can be easily managed with antibiotics. You and I have won a
geographical lottery that we really did nothing to earn but get born on
one particular piece of the planet.
Jean
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
19 Dec 2003 01:26:14 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
"alvintchase" <relayer211@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1029ba7.0312181450.6e38c918@posting.google.com...
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<brsdqc$71s1k$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"Teilhard Knight" <teilhk@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:brsc7t$6migt$1@ID-140630.news.uni-berlin.de...
The cultural values of some regions are far superior to others."
And I suppose the cultural values of America
are at the very top of the rest
of countries of the world.
Yes, it is, that doesn't mean it's perfect or even all
that great. But, free markets, freedom of speech,
democratic process, wealth, prosperity,
all of these make it one of the best places to live in the world.
sorry,I meant to say we have many poor and middle class people that
WE should be helping out more.(We meaning the goverment and all other
people.)
The poorest person in your country is rich by many other country's
standards, Alvin.
mH, no. What does 'rich' mean? At least, one would have to
be able to pay the rent, and buy food and clothes, right?
You are not 'rich' by any country's standard if you can't
afford buying food.
Now, the money a US poor has would be quite a good income
at 3rd world prices. However, that simply reflects the currency
exchange rates, it has nothing to do with wealth, the US poor
has to pay US prices, not 3rd world prices. Did the US
GDP drop by 30% because the US $ lost 30% of its value
over the last two years? No.
What you should compare, when it comes to 'wealth', is how
much people can buy at local prices with their income. Things
like "my $400 disability benefits cover the rent, and then
I have $30 left for gas, food, and clothes".
And if you take that and compare industrialized countries,
you will see that the US rich generally are richer than
the rich in other industrialized countries, and the US poor
generally are poorer than the poor in other industrialized countries.
Thomas
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| User: "Luna" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
19 Dec 2003 07:11:27 AM |
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Thomas Dehn wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
"alvintchase" <relayer211@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1029ba7.0312181450.6e38c918@posting.google.com...
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<brsdqc$71s1k$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"Teilhard Knight" <teilhk@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:brsc7t$6migt$1@ID-140630.news.uni-berlin.de...
The cultural values of some regions are far superior to others."
And I suppose the cultural values of America
are at the very top of the rest
of countries of the world.
Yes, it is, that doesn't mean it's perfect or even all
that great. But, free markets, freedom of speech,
democratic process, wealth, prosperity,
all of these make it one of the best places to live in the world.
sorry,I meant to say we have many poor and middle class people
that WE should be helping out more.(We meaning the goverment and
all other people.)
The poorest person in your country is rich by many other country's
standards, Alvin.
mH, no. What does 'rich' mean? At least, one would have to
be able to pay the rent, and buy food and clothes, right?
You are not 'rich' by any country's standard if you can't
afford buying food.
Lots of countries don't have food banks, Thomas, or homeless shelters or
free clinics or disability or even enough food to feed their population.
Now, the money a US poor has would be quite a good income
at 3rd world prices. However, that simply reflects the currency
exchange rates, it has nothing to do with wealth, the US poor
has to pay US prices, not 3rd world prices. Did the US
GDP drop by 30% because the US $ lost 30% of its value
over the last two years? No.
What you should compare, when it comes to 'wealth', is how
much people can buy at local prices with their income. Things
like "my $400 disability benefits cover the rent, and then
I have $30 left for gas, food, and clothes".
gas? haha.
And if you take that and compare industrialized countries,
you will see that the US rich generally are richer than
the rich in other industrialized countries, and the US poor
generally are poorer than the poor in other industrialized countries.
Okay, but I was comparing industrialized countries to third world
countries. Like I got into a cab once and the driver, from Somalia,
told me that people here in Canada didn't know what real poor was, and I
believe him.
Jean
Thomas
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
19 Dec 2003 10:51:51 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thomas Dehn wrote:
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
"alvintchase" <relayer211@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1029ba7.0312181450.6e38c918@posting.google.com...
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<brsdqc$71s1k$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"Teilhard Knight" <teilhk@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:brsc7t$6migt$1@ID-140630.news.uni-berlin.de...
The cultural values of some regions are far superior to others."
And I suppose the cultural values of America
are at the very top of the rest
of countries of the world.
Yes, it is, that doesn't mean it's perfect or even all
that great. But, free markets, freedom of speech,
democratic process, wealth, prosperity,
all of these make it one of the best places to live in the world.
sorry,I meant to say we have many poor and middle class people
that WE should be helping out more.(We meaning the goverment and
all other people.)
The poorest person in your country is rich by many other country's
standards, Alvin.
mH, no. What does 'rich' mean? At least, one would have to
be able to pay the rent, and buy food and clothes, right?
You are not 'rich' by any country's standard if you can't
afford buying food.
Lots of countries don't have food banks, Thomas, or homeless shelters or
free clinics or disability or even enough food to feed their population.
Well, if you want to compare the US against the bottom of
the bottom, go ahead. Just don't expect me to take
that serious.
Thomas
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| User: "Luna" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
19 Dec 2003 11:37:45 AM |
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Thomas Dehn wrote:
<snip>
Well, if you want to compare the US against the bottom of
the bottom, go ahead. Just don't expect me to take
that serious.
I'm confused Thomas - did you think I was proposing we overthrow the
government in Germany? :)
Jean
Thomas
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| User: "GlennT" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
19 Dec 2003 11:41:35 AM |
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Luna wrote:
Thomas Dehn wrote:
<snip>
Well, if you want to compare the US against the bottom of
the bottom, go ahead. Just don't expect me to take
that serious.
I'm confused Thomas - did you think I was proposing we overthrow the
government in Germany? :)
Jean
Thomas
It's been done already... ;P
GlennT
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
19 Dec 2003 01:41:31 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thomas Dehn wrote:
Well, if you want to compare the US against the bottom of
the bottom, go ahead. Just don't expect me to take
that serious.
I'm confused Thomas - did you think I was proposing
we overthrow the government in Germany? :)
You (well, not exactly you, but rather the US, with
more than a little help from the Russians) already did that. ;-)
You might have noticed that I did not
answer to your 'Overthrowing governments' posting
(I completely abstained from that discussion),
but to your statement how good the poor in the US have it.
Thomas
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| User: "Luna" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
20 Dec 2003 08:13:33 AM |
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Thomas Dehn wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thomas Dehn wrote:
Well, if you want to compare the US against the bottom of
the bottom, go ahead. Just don't expect me to take
that serious.
I'm confused Thomas - did you think I was proposing
we overthrow the government in Germany? :)
You (well, not exactly you, but rather the US, with
more than a little help from the Russians) already did that. ;-)
You might have noticed that I did not
answer to your 'Overthrowing governments' posting
(I completely abstained from that discussion),
but to your statement how good the poor in the US have it.
I don't think they have it "good", really. They just have it "better"
then the poor in many other countries - I'm not including countries like
Canada or Western Europe in that assertion, though. I'm sure the poor
in Canada, for example, are far better off then the poor in the US. My
sister could not believe the numbers of homeless she saw on a recent
trip to California. You just don't see that here.
Jean
Thomas
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| User: "Deminimii" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
20 Dec 2003 07:47:04 PM |
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Subject: Re: Overthrowing Governments
From: "Luna"
Date: 12/20/2003 6:13 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <bs1le1$8irnk$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de>
Thomas Dehn wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
"Luna" < > wrote:
Thomas Dehn wrote:
Well, if you want to compare the US against the bottom of
the bottom, go ahead. Just don't expect me to take
that serious.
I'm confused Thomas - did you think I was proposing
we overthrow the government in Germany? :)
You (well, not exactly you, but rather the US, with
more than a little help from the Russians) already did that. ;-)
You might have noticed that I did not
answer to your 'Overthrowing governments' posting
(I completely abstained from that discussion),
but to your statement how good the poor in the US have it.
I don't think they have it "good", really. They just have it "better"
then the poor in many other countries - I'm not including countries like
Canada or Western Europe in that assertion, though. I'm sure the poor
in Canada, for example, are far better off then the poor in the US. My
sister could not believe the numbers of homeless she saw on a recent
trip to California. You just don't see that here.
Could it be that there are 35 million people in California and less then 30 in
Canada? Could it be that the homeless gravitate to California due to the
weather? Could it be bc of the size and bc there are less social controls,
there is more freedom to ***** up your life here? Could it be bc we have the
happiest cows?
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| User: "Whiskers" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
21 Dec 2003 05:58:13 PM |
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On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 01:47:04 +0000, (Deminimii) wrote:
snip
Could it be bc we have the happiest cows?
I wonder who that would be?
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^ Interested in Citroens?
-- Whiskers <http://www.aacit.net>
-- ~~~~~~~~~~ <news:alt.autos.citroen>
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| User: "Deminimii" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
21 Dec 2003 06:35:40 PM |
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Subject: Re: Overthrowing Governments
From: Whiskers
Date: 12/21/2003 3:58 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <pan.2003.12.21.16.17.09.504761@ID-107770.user.uni-berlin.de>
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 01:47:04 +0000, (Deminimii) wrote:
snip
Could it be bc we have the happiest cows?
I wonder who that would be?
Since, you're interested, I will try to catch her name and let you know. Be
advised, bestiality is illegal here.
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
20 Dec 2003 11:36:20 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thomas Dehn wrote:
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thomas Dehn wrote:
Well, if you want to compare the US against the bottom of
the bottom, go ahead. Just don't expect me to take
that serious.
I'm confused Thomas - did you think I was proposing
we overthrow the government in Germany? :)
You (well, not exactly you, but rather the US, with
more than a little help from the Russians) already did that. ;-)
You might have noticed that I did not
answer to your 'Overthrowing governments' posting
(I completely abstained from that discussion),
but to your statement how good the poor in the US have it.
I don't think they have it "good", really. They just have it "better"
then the poor in many other countries - I'm not including countries like
Canada or Western Europe in that assertion, though.
I think that measuring the US against Burkina Faso,
rather than against Canada, is insulting the US.
I'm sure the poor in Canada, for example,
are far better off then the poor in the US.
I am sure that the poor in Canada have it better
than the poor in the US. I don't have any opinion
on how much the poor in Canada are better off.
My sister could not believe the numbers
of homeless she saw on a recent trip to California.
Market Street, San Francisco. Incredible.
Thomas
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| User: "Janithor" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
20 Dec 2003 06:08:43 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Thomas Dehn wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thomas Dehn wrote:
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thomas Dehn wrote:
Well, if you want to compare the US against the bottom of
the bottom, go ahead. Just don't expect me to take
that serious.
I'm confused Thomas - did you think I was proposing
we overthrow the government in Germany? :)
You (well, not exactly you, but rather the US, with
more than a little help from the Russians) already did that. ;-)
You might have noticed that I did not
answer to your 'Overthrowing governments' posting
(I completely abstained from that discussion),
but to your statement how good the poor in the US have it.
I don't think they have it "good", really. They just have it "better"
then the poor in many other countries - I'm not including countries like
Canada or Western Europe in that assertion, though.
I think that measuring the US against Burkina Faso,
rather than against Canada, is insulting the US.
And you're not being insulting to the people of Burkina Faso?!
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
20 Dec 2003 07:50:31 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"Janithor" <Janithor@comcast.net> wrote:
Thomas Dehn wrote:
I think that measuring the US against Burkina Faso,
rather than against Canada, is insulting the US.
And you're not being insulting to the people of Burkina Faso?!
Maybe I am, but if speaking the truth about Burkina
Faso is insulting, then I am not the only one.
Thomas
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| User: "Janithor" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
21 Dec 2003 03:25:15 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Thomas Dehn wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
"Janithor" <Janithor@comcast.net> wrote:
Thomas Dehn wrote:
I think that measuring the US against Burkina Faso,
rather than against Canada, is insulting the US.
And you're not being insulting to the people of Burkina Faso?!
Maybe I am, but if speaking the truth about Burkina
Faso is insulting, then I am not the only one.
Thomas
So, they are not worthy of being called to task and expected to perform
well? Or do you think they're simply incapable of it?
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
21 Dec 2003 04:12:20 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"Janithor" <Janithor@comcast.net> wrote:
Thomas Dehn wrote:
"Janithor" <Janithor@comcast.net> wrote:
Thomas Dehn wrote:
I think that measuring the US against Burkina Faso,
rather than against Canada, is insulting the US.
And you're not being insulting to the people of Burkina Faso?!
Maybe I am, but if speaking the truth about Burkina
Faso is insulting, then I am not the only one.
So, they are not worthy of being called to task and expected to perform
well? Or do you think they're simply incapable of it?
Its not about being worthy, its about whats realistic. Given
the current situation where Burkina Faso is dead last in poverty
stats, Burkina Faso is extremely unlikely to become a wealthy
country in the foreseeable future. Just as my hometown's
football club, which barely escaped bancrupty
earlier this year, is unlikely to win the Champions League.
They are expected to try hard and do well against their
peers, but they are not expected to even qualify for
the Champions League.
Thomas
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| User: "Janithor" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
02 Jan 2004 02:54:17 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Thomas Dehn wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Its not about being worthy, its about whats realistic. Given
the current situation where Burkina Faso is dead last in poverty
stats, Burkina Faso is extremely unlikely to become a wealthy
country in the foreseeable future. Just as my hometown's
football club, which barely escaped bancrupty
earlier this year, is unlikely to win the Champions League.
They are expected to try hard and do well against their
peers, but they are not expected to even qualify for
the Champions League.
Of course they are not going to get rich overnight. The point is, you
don't even consider them in the equation. You are horrified at poor
people and homeless people in the US, and yet you don't pay any
attention to poor and homeless in other countries. In other words, they
don't count. Given that the US is a Western nation and predominantly
white skinned, and the countries that you ignore and write off and don't
care about are predominantly brown-skinned, well...
.
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
03 Jan 2004 08:13:57 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
"Janithor" <Janithor@comcast.net> wrote:
Thomas Dehn wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Its not about being worthy, its about whats realistic. Given
the current situation where Burkina Faso is dead last in poverty
stats, Burkina Faso is extremely unlikely to become a wealthy
country in the foreseeable future. Just as my hometown's
football club, which barely escaped bancrupty
earlier this year, is unlikely to win the Champions League.
They are expected to try hard and do well against their
peers, but they are not expected to even qualify for
the Champions League.
Of course they are not going to get rich overnight. The point is, you
don't even consider them in the equation. You are horrified at poor
people and homeless people in the US, and yet you don't pay any
attention to poor and homeless in other countries.
I am not "horrified at poor people and homeless
people in the US". I am paying
attention to poor and homeless in other countries.
I just don't think that the poor people in the US should
be compared to the poor people in Burkina Faso.
Do you compare the US military expenses
to those of Burkina Faso? Demand that US military
expense be reduced to 10 times military expenses
of Burkina Faso? If not, then why not?
Thomas
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| User: "Flashfire" |
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| Title: Re: Overthrowing Governments |
03 Jan 2004 02:44:49 PM |
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Thomas Dehn wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
Of course they are not going to get rich overnight. The point is,
you don't even consider them in the equation. You are horrified at
poor people and homeless people in the US, and yet you don't pay any
attention to poor and homeless in other countries.
I am not "horrified at poor people and homeless
people in the US". I am paying
attention to poor and homeless in other countries.
I just don't think that the poor people in the US should
be compared to the poor people in Burkina Faso.
Why not Thomas, poor people are poor people regardless of where they live,
if you cannot buy food, clothes or educate your children, then you are poor,
no matter what your nationality. Quite frankly, I would prefer to help the
poor of my own country before any obscure African nation, in the middle of
now where.
You are bleating on about the poor black people of the world, have a look at
your statistics, most of the poor people of America are the poor blacks. You
really make me angry with your pick and choose indignation. IF you
are concerned for the poor, then you are concerned for ALL the poor, not
just the ones you deem worthy of your contemptuous attention. Personally if
you are so concerned with the people of Bukina whereever, go there, help
them, do something, instead of bleating your anti Western sentiments here.
--
Regards Lee
~~
No one is compelled to serve great causes,
unless he feels fit for it.
Sir Winston Churchill
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