Placebos as effective as anti-depressants



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Topic: Sociology > Depression
User: "Theta"
Date: 28 Jun 2003 01:43:24 PM
Object: Placebos as effective as anti-depressants
http://groups.msn.com/psychbusters
Decoding Psychiatric Propaganda
* * *
Jagged little pills
Robin Harvey
TORONTO STAR
7 June 2003

Treating depression is an inexact balance of art and science.
Since you can't study live brains to see how any treatment really
works, tackling the disease is somewhat like nailing jelly to the
wall, says a leading expert.
Add that to the fact that more than half of depressive episodes
eventually go away without treatment, and it's even harder to
understand the disease, says Dr. Robert Cooke, of the mood disorders
clinic at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto.
The resulting reality is that each day, millions of North Americans
take pills to fight depression even though no one really knows exactly
how they work.
"The brain is incredibly complicated (and) the mind is incredibly
complicated," Cooke says. "There are still no simple answers or magic
cures. We have treatments worked out on a trial-and-error basis and
they are imperfect."
A mainstay of treatment has been antidepressant medication. But the
earliest pills developed in the 1950s had significant side effects and
could be highly toxic. By the late 1980s, with the advent of the new
"designer" antidepressants, doctors thought they'd found a better
answer.
The new drugs specifically target and change levels of the brain's
chemical messengers — neurotransmitters. They were touted as
"cleaner" drugs with fewer side effects and less toxic if taken in
overdose.
They became so popular that sales of the drug Prozac — the first
of the new class — hit $2.81 billion (U.S.) worldwide in 1998,
and it became the fourth pharmaceutical product ever to eclipse $2.5
billion (U.S.) in global sales.
In Canada, from 1993 until 2002 the number of prescriptions for this
class of drugs increased 768 per cent to 13.8 million, according to
IMS Health Canada, a medical research firm.
Yet today, though millions of people are prescribed the new class of
drugs, the new pills have not lived up to initial expectations.
"We need a major breakthrough in medications," Cooke says. "Most (used
today) are copycats of older ones changed somewhat so they have fewer
side effects. But the fact is, when it comes to effectiveness, the new
drugs are no more effective than the ones we used in 1950s."
There is no doubt that changing neurotransmitter levels can affect
mood, easing depression and mood swings, Cooke says.
Toronto's Glenn Hardcastle who has had bouts of depression all his
adult life says he could never have fought the "molasses on the mind"
without medication.
"It would be cruel to expect people to talk their way out when they
are really down," he says. "For me, it was just not possible."
And Phil Upshall, spokesperson for the Mood Disorders Society of
Canada, says the drugs help people out of their immediate crises so
they can engage in talk therapy. Upshall, who has bipolar disorder,
says medication was key to his getting his life back on track.
Though people on the medicine paint a glowing portrait of the drugs'
benefits, the scientific evidence is not as clear-cut.
Studies show antidepressants help only 20 per cent of people who take
them. That's based on controlled, double-blind trials which show that
although 60 per cent of people respond to antidepressants, 40 per cent
respond to a sugar pill, Cooke says.
But Dr. Barry Martin, another expert at the centre who runs its
electro-convulsive therapy service, says that picture is incomplete
because it only deals with patients who report improvement.
If you look at the number of people who completely recover on
medication and compare it to people who take a sugar pill who report
the same recovery, both are equally effective — about 40 per
cent, he says.
However, Dr. Anthony Levitt, psychiatrist-in-chief at Sunnybrook and
Women's Health Sciences Centre, says neither statistic is relevant. He
says if you just look at depressed people left on waiting lists who
are not involved in any studies, only 20 per cent improve on their
own.
Besides the hazy picture of the drugs' effectiveness, other problems
have emerged over the past 15 years as the newer medications have
grown more popular.
Their side effects can be significant. The major ones are weight gain,
sleep disturbance and sexual dysfunction, Cooke says.
Up to 30 per cent of patients using the neurotransmitter reuptake
inhibitors report some sexual problem — either loss of desire,
inability to have an orgasm, impotence or delayed orgasm. Hardcastle
says he has experienced headaches, sexual dysfunction, agitation,
sleeplessness and frequent urination as side effects in his search for
a suitable medication.
Another concern has been the reports of physical withdrawal when
people stop taking antidepressants — a problem Cooke says was
"really underestimated."
In April, Health Canada warned doctors that "withdrawal reactions or
discontinuation symptoms" occur with all the newer antidepressant
drugs. It "may be misdiagnosed, leading to inappropriate treatment."
Cooke says people who stop antidepressants don't crave them for a
high. But they can experience nausea and diarrhea. They may also have
nightmares and can get a disturbing feeling like electrical sparks
shooting through parts of their body, he says.
Bonnie North says she went through "agonizing withdrawal" when she
tried to stop an antidepressant in 2001.
She had been on the treatment for three years to fend off depression
after childbirth.
North suffered headaches, extreme nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. Most
maddening, she says, was a constant sense of an electrical "zap" in
her head that lasted for months. She has launched a lawsuit against
the drug manufacturer.
The manufacturer will not comment on the court case but says its drug
is safe and causes no severe withdrawal symptoms if discontinued
properly under a doctor's supervision.
North also worries because there have been no studies of long-term
side effects.
People like herself, who are put on the drugs for years, are "guinea
pigs" she says.
Most of the pre-market studies of the drugs before they were approved
for sale lasted six weeks. But many patients stay on the drugs much
longer. That's because, unless the drugs are taken for a year, a
patient is likely to have a relapse, Cooke says.
He acknowledges that information about long-term side effects is not
available. But since the drugs are monitored after they hit the
market, serious adverse reactions would be reported, he says.
* * *
http://groups.msn.com/psychbusters
Decoding Psychiatric Propaganda
.

User: "Larry Hoover"

Title: Re: Placebos as effective as anti-depressants 28 Jun 2003 06:20:09 PM
"Theta" <theta@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:18e81488.0306281043.7657e8de@posting.google.com...

http://groups.msn.com/psychbusters
Decoding Psychiatric Propaganda

* * *

Jagged little pills

Robin Harvey
TORONTO STAR

7 June 2003

(snip)

Studies show antidepressants help only 20 per cent of people who take
them. That's based on controlled, double-blind trials which show that
although 60 per cent of people respond to antidepressants, 40 per cent
respond to a sugar pill, Cooke says.

I am appalled at the scientific ignorance inherent in such simplistic
statements.
Subjects receiving placebo pills in antidepressant trials are *not*
untreated.
From http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p000429.html, written by Dr. Khan.
"The less-than-impressive results in these and other studies also calls to
mind the fact that patients assigned to placebo treatment in clinical trials
are not "getting nothing." The capsule they receive is pharmacologically
inert but hardly inert with respect to its symbolic value and its power as a
conditioned stimulus. In addition, placebo-treated patients receive all of
the commonly employed treatment techniques: a thorough evaluation; an
explanation for their distress; an expert healer; a plausible treatment;
expectation of improvement; a healer's commitment, enthusiasm and positive
regard; and an opportunity to verbalize their distress. "
He goes on to include a very important warning about the interpretation of
his findings. Note particularly the concluding statement.
"A cautionary note is indicated about the generalization of these data to
the clinical management of depressed patients. The less-than-impressive
difference between drug and placebo in this and other studies of clinical
trials does not speak directly to the effectiveness of antidepressants in
clinical practice. Participants in antidepressant clinical trials are a
highly select group and are not representative of the general population of
depressed patients. They are not actively suicidal, they are almost always
outpatients who are moderately rather than severely or mildly depressed, and
they are free of comorbid physical or psychiatric illness. They are likely
to have a higher placebo response rate than more severely ill depressed
patients. "
"Furthermore, the primary aim of these studies is not to assess the optimal
effect of antidepressants, but rather to rapidly assess efficacy of new
drugs so they can be brought to the market. Therefore, dose, duration and
diagnosis in clinical trials are not necessarily ideally suited to identify
the optimal effects of antidepressants. Accordingly, clinical trials may
identify the lower bound of the effect size compared to placebo. "
.
User: "Robyn Nachtsheim"

Title: Re: Placebos as effective as anti-depressants 28 Jun 2003 10:31:15 PM
Yeah, I agree, and I think it depends on the person and what they're taking.
I started on one med, which kinda helped a little, and then my doctor tried
another, and then sent me to a Psychiatrist who took me off the one I was on
and started me on a different one, and then later added another and later
another. I'm feeling better now, still sad sometimes, but more when
something bad happens than all the time. I think therapy has helped me the
most. I was scared to go at first, but now I find it relieving to be able
to unload the stuff that's bothering me, and work through what happened in
the week that upset me or made me happy. I am learning better coping
skills, how to focus on what's important to me.
"Larry Hoover" <larryhoover@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:lrpLa.7861$OE2.1049547@news20.bellglobal.com...


"Theta" <theta@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:18e81488.0306281043.7657e8de@posting.google.com...

http://groups.msn.com/psychbusters
Decoding Psychiatric Propaganda

* * *

Jagged little pills

Robin Harvey
TORONTO STAR

7 June 2003

(snip)

Studies show antidepressants help only 20 per cent of people who take
them. That's based on controlled, double-blind trials which show that
although 60 per cent of people respond to antidepressants, 40 per cent
respond to a sugar pill, Cooke says.


I am appalled at the scientific ignorance inherent in such simplistic
statements.

Subjects receiving placebo pills in antidepressant trials are *not*
untreated.


From http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p000429.html, written by Dr. Khan.

"The less-than-impressive results in these and other studies also calls to
mind the fact that patients assigned to placebo treatment in clinical

trials

are not "getting nothing." The capsule they receive is pharmacologically
inert but hardly inert with respect to its symbolic value and its power as

a

conditioned stimulus. In addition, placebo-treated patients receive all of
the commonly employed treatment techniques: a thorough evaluation; an
explanation for their distress; an expert healer; a plausible treatment;
expectation of improvement; a healer's commitment, enthusiasm and positive
regard; and an opportunity to verbalize their distress. "

He goes on to include a very important warning about the interpretation of
his findings. Note particularly the concluding statement.

"A cautionary note is indicated about the generalization of these data to
the clinical management of depressed patients. The less-than-impressive
difference between drug and placebo in this and other studies of clinical
trials does not speak directly to the effectiveness of antidepressants in
clinical practice. Participants in antidepressant clinical trials are a
highly select group and are not representative of the general population

of

depressed patients. They are not actively suicidal, they are almost always
outpatients who are moderately rather than severely or mildly depressed,

and

they are free of comorbid physical or psychiatric illness. They are likely
to have a higher placebo response rate than more severely ill depressed
patients. "

"Furthermore, the primary aim of these studies is not to assess the

optimal

effect of antidepressants, but rather to rapidly assess efficacy of new
drugs so they can be brought to the market. Therefore, dose, duration and
diagnosis in clinical trials are not necessarily ideally suited to

identify

the optimal effects of antidepressants. Accordingly, clinical trials may
identify the lower bound of the effect size compared to placebo. "





.


User: ""

Title: Re: Placebos as effective as anti-depressants 29 Jun 2003 01:23:29 PM
I would guess that the efficacy of antidepressants and placebos may approach
similar efficacy in mild cases of depression. there are a lot of
non-specific variables in treatment to consider. For example, going to a
doctor for help, admitting to a problem, committing to change it and
believing in a treatment regimen (as well as all of the concurrent things
one might do to improve oneself-exercise, therapy, relaxation, dietary
change, support groups, support from family, etc) all have a tremendous
effect. I would guess that antidepressants are highly effective, but the
previously mentioned variabes account for a great deal symptomatic
improvement and in mild cases of depression may contribute enough to cloud
the effects of antidepressants.
.

User: "Sir Arthur C. B. E. Wholeflaffers A.S.A."

Title: Re: Placebos as effective as anti-depressants 28 Jun 2003 07:18:40 PM
In article <18e81488.0306281043.7657e8de@posting.google.com>, Theta says...
Great research. My research team at Independent Research Laboratories
came to the same conclusions after exhaustive testing. Our material
was published in the Old England Journal of Medicine
and the Journal of Ancient Medical Astronauts (JAMA).
Carry on and keep us posted about further developments!!
Sir Arthur

http://groups.msn.com/psychbusters
Decoding Psychiatric Propaganda

* * *

Jagged little pills

Robin Harvey
TORONTO STAR

7 June 2003

Treating depression is an inexact balance of art and science.

Since you can't study live brains to see how any treatment really
works, tackling the disease is somewhat like nailing jelly to the
wall, says a leading expert.

Add that to the fact that more than half of depressive episodes
eventually go away without treatment, and it's even harder to
understand the disease, says Dr. Robert Cooke, of the mood disorders
clinic at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto.

The resulting reality is that each day, millions of North Americans
take pills to fight depression even though no one really knows exactly
how they work.

"The brain is incredibly complicated (and) the mind is incredibly
complicated," Cooke says. "There are still no simple answers or magic
cures. We have treatments worked out on a trial-and-error basis and
they are imperfect."

A mainstay of treatment has been antidepressant medication. But the
earliest pills developed in the 1950s had significant side effects and
could be highly toxic. By the late 1980s, with the advent of the new
"designer" antidepressants, doctors thought they'd found a better
answer.

The new drugs specifically target and change levels of the brain's
chemical messengers &#8212; neurotransmitters. They were touted as
"cleaner" drugs with fewer side effects and less toxic if taken in
overdose.

They became so popular that sales of the drug Prozac &#8212; the first
of the new class &#8212; hit $2.81 billion (U.S.) worldwide in 1998,
and it became the fourth pharmaceutical product ever to eclipse $2.5
billion (U.S.) in global sales.

In Canada, from 1993 until 2002 the number of prescriptions for this
class of drugs increased 768 per cent to 13.8 million, according to
IMS Health Canada, a medical research firm.

Yet today, though millions of people are prescribed the new class of
drugs, the new pills have not lived up to initial expectations.

"We need a major breakthrough in medications," Cooke says. "Most (used
today) are copycats of older ones changed somewhat so they have fewer
side effects. But the fact is, when it comes to effectiveness, the new
drugs are no more effective than the ones we used in 1950s."

There is no doubt that changing neurotransmitter levels can affect
mood, easing depression and mood swings, Cooke says.

Toronto's Glenn Hardcastle who has had bouts of depression all his
adult life says he could never have fought the "molasses on the mind"
without medication.

"It would be cruel to expect people to talk their way out when they
are really down," he says. "For me, it was just not possible."

And Phil Upshall, spokesperson for the Mood Disorders Society of
Canada, says the drugs help people out of their immediate crises so
they can engage in talk therapy. Upshall, who has bipolar disorder,
says medication was key to his getting his life back on track.

Though people on the medicine paint a glowing portrait of the drugs'
benefits, the scientific evidence is not as clear-cut.

Studies show antidepressants help only 20 per cent of people who take
them. That's based on controlled, double-blind trials which show that
although 60 per cent of people respond to antidepressants, 40 per cent
respond to a sugar pill, Cooke says.

But Dr. Barry Martin, another expert at the centre who runs its
electro-convulsive therapy service, says that picture is incomplete
because it only deals with patients who report improvement.

If you look at the number of people who completely recover on
medication and compare it to people who take a sugar pill who report
the same recovery, both are equally effective &#8212; about 40 per
cent, he says.

However, Dr. Anthony Levitt, psychiatrist-in-chief at Sunnybrook and
Women's Health Sciences Centre, says neither statistic is relevant. He
says if you just look at depressed people left on waiting lists who
are not involved in any studies, only 20 per cent improve on their
own.

Besides the hazy picture of the drugs' effectiveness, other problems
have emerged over the past 15 years as the newer medications have
grown more popular.

Their side effects can be significant. The major ones are weight gain,
sleep disturbance and sexual dysfunction, Cooke says.

Up to 30 per cent of patients using the neurotransmitter reuptake
inhibitors report some sexual problem &#8212; either loss of desire,
inability to have an orgasm, impotence or delayed orgasm. Hardcastle
says he has experienced headaches, sexual dysfunction, agitation,
sleeplessness and frequent urination as side effects in his search for
a suitable medication.

Another concern has been the reports of physical withdrawal when
people stop taking antidepressants &#8212; a problem Cooke says was
"really underestimated."

In April, Health Canada warned doctors that "withdrawal reactions or
discontinuation symptoms" occur with all the newer antidepressant
drugs. It "may be misdiagnosed, leading to inappropriate treatment."

Cooke says people who stop antidepressants don't crave them for a
high. But they can experience nausea and diarrhea. They may also have
nightmares and can get a disturbing feeling like electrical sparks
shooting through parts of their body, he says.

Bonnie North says she went through "agonizing withdrawal" when she
tried to stop an antidepressant in 2001.

She had been on the treatment for three years to fend off depression
after childbirth.

North suffered headaches, extreme nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. Most
maddening, she says, was a constant sense of an electrical "zap" in
her head that lasted for months. She has launched a lawsuit against
the drug manufacturer.

The manufacturer will not comment on the court case but says its drug
is safe and causes no severe withdrawal symptoms if discontinued
properly under a doctor's supervision.

North also worries because there have been no studies of long-term
side effects.

People like herself, who are put on the drugs for years, are "guinea
pigs" she says.

Most of the pre-market studies of the drugs before they were approved
for sale lasted six weeks. But many patients stay on the drugs much
longer. That's because, unless the drugs are taken for a year, a
patient is likely to have a relapse, Cooke says.

He acknowledges that information about long-term side effects is not
available. But since the drugs are monitored after they hit the
market, serious adverse reactions would be reported, he says.

* * *

http://groups.msn.com/psychbusters
Decoding Psychiatric Propaganda

.
User: "Dr. Dickie"

Title: Re: Placebos as effective as anti-depressants 29 Jun 2003 04:10:13 AM
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 00:18:40 GMT, Sir Arthur C. B. E. Wholeflaffers
A.S.A. <nospam@newsranger.com> wrote:
*In article <18e81488.0306281043.7657e8de@posting.google.com>, Theta
says...
*
*Great research. My research team at Independent Research
Laboratories
*came to the same conclusions after exhaustive testing. Our material
*was published in the Old England Journal of Medicine
*and the Journal of Ancient Medical Astronauts (JAMA).
*
*Carry on and keep us posted about further developments!!
*
*Sir Arthur
*
<snip crap>
Flappy! You are still loose and not on your meds.
Your research team, HA! Court ordered medication for several years is
not the same thing as exhaustive testing.
You crack me up, Flappy. Thank god you have a computer to keep track
of all the conspiracies you see, otherwise it might actually require
you to use some brain power.
--------------------------------------------------
Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick
--------------------------------------------------
"The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Curiosity has its own reason for existing."
A. Einstein
.
User: "Sir Arthur C. B. E. Wholeflaffers A.S.A."

Title: Re: Placebos as effective as anti-depressants 29 Jun 2003 06:31:21 AM
In article <qvatfvk5m97b7aos5eqh2o9v93ldqgnuu5@4ax.com>, Dr. Dickie says...


On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 00:18:40 GMT, Sir Arthur C. B. E. Wholeflaffers
A.S.A. <nospam@newsranger.com> wrote:

*In article <18e81488.0306281043.7657e8de@posting.google.com>, Theta
says...
*
*Great research. My research team at Independent Research
Laboratories
*came to the same conclusions after exhaustive testing. Our material
*was published in the Old England Journal of Medicine
*and the Journal of Ancient Medical Astronauts (JAMA).
*
*Carry on and keep us posted about further developments!!
*
*Sir Arthur
*
<snip crap>

Flappy! You are still loose and not on your meds.
Your research team, HA! Court ordered medication for several years is
not the same thing as exhaustive testing.

First off, you are NOT a real doctor, so your
opinion is worthless, by default.

You crack me up, Flappy. Thank god you have a computer to keep track
of all the conspiracies you see, otherwise it might actually require
you to use some brain power.

I strongly urge you to tell you real doc to
increase your medication and take you off
the placebos. In your case it does not work.

--------------------------------------------------
Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick
--------------------------------------------------
"The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Curiosity has its own reason for existing."
A. Einstein

.
User: "Byte Me"

Title: Re: Placebos as effective as anti-depressants 29 Jun 2003 06:50:56 AM
Sir Arthur C. B. E. Wholeflaffers A.S.A. <nospam@newsranger.com> wrote in
news:d6ALa.5212$cJ5.417@www.newsranger.com:


I strongly urge you to tell you real doc to
increase your medication and take you off
the placebos. In your case it does not work.


Unfortunately there's no treatment for wanton stupidity and arrogance. (the
current U.S. administration is proof of that). You can't stop people from
choosing the low road of egocentricity and deliberate foolishness, even
though everyone else frequently suffers as a result. For your own peace of
mind, I'd suggest relegating such individuals to the Bozo bin.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Placebos as effective as anti-depressants 07 Jul 2003 07:11:47 AM
Byte Me <bytemyb@nana.com> wrote in message news:<Xns93A94FBFEA82bytemybnanacom@142.77.1.194>...

Sir Arthur C. B. E. Wholeflaffers A.S.A. <nospam@newsranger.com> wrote in
news:d6ALa.5212$cJ5.417@www.newsranger.com:


I strongly urge you to tell you real doc to
increase your medication and take you off
the placebos. In your case it does not work.



Unfortunately there's no treatment for wanton stupidity and arrogance. (the
current U.S. administration is proof of that). You can't stop people from
choosing the low road of egocentricity and deliberate foolishness, even
though everyone else frequently suffers as a result. For your own peace of
mind, I'd suggest relegating such individuals to the Bozo bin.

Waton and deliberatly making others stupid and looting money.
It is highly depressing that such an administration is in Power.
.
User: "Gym Bob"

Title: Re: Placebos as effective as anti-depressants 12 Jul 2003 04:38:26 PM
Waton! Come here. I need you!
<ss25@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:9cda39b2.0307070411.36ef221f@posting.google.com...

Byte Me <bytemyb@nana.com> wrote in message

news:<Xns93A94FBFEA82bytemybnanacom@142.77.1.194>...

Sir Arthur C. B. E. Wholeflaffers A.S.A. <nospam@newsranger.com> wrote

in

news:d6ALa.5212$cJ5.417@www.newsranger.com:


I strongly urge you to tell you real doc to
increase your medication and take you off
the placebos. In your case it does not work.



Unfortunately there's no treatment for wanton stupidity and arrogance.

(the

current U.S. administration is proof of that). You can't stop people

from

choosing the low road of egocentricity and deliberate foolishness, even
though everyone else frequently suffers as a result. For your own peace

of

mind, I'd suggest relegating such individuals to the Bozo bin.


Waton and deliberatly making others stupid and looting money.
It is highly depressing that such an administration is in Power.

.






User: "Wayne Alan Simon"

Title: Re: Placebos as effective as anti-depressants 28 Jun 2003 11:22:44 PM
although there is some bias in drug company findings at times, I find this
to be a tad outrageous. I have seen how well patients respond to
antidepressants, even when other modes of therapy are incorporated. These
medications are extremely helpful in the long term treatment of patients who
suffer from depression. Although a multi modality approach is often best,
many of the other modes work much better if the patient is receiving
appropriate antidepressants. Its clear to any clinician how effective these
medications are.
.
User: "Muush"

Title: Re: Placebos as effective as anti-depressants 29 Jun 2003 12:02:55 AM
"Wayne Alan Simon" <ariess@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:9xtLa.10650$j31.3103@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com...

although there is some bias in drug company findings at times, I find this
to be a tad outrageous. I have seen how well patients respond to
antidepressants, even when other modes of therapy are incorporated. These
medications are extremely helpful in the long term treatment of patients

who

suffer from depression. Although a multi modality approach is often best,
many of the other modes work much better if the patient is receiving
appropriate antidepressants. Its clear to any clinician how effective

these

medications are.

In fact, some folk can't be treated by other modalities until they have some
drug treatment.
I've heard the drug treatment described as a milk crate to help you struggle
out of the ditch.
.



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