| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"wombn" |
| Date: |
18 Aug 2003 02:26:16 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Bruno the wimp..... (kittens) |
ewwww why are you reposting my post to other newsgroups? that's
icky. And now I have to put you in my killfile over here, too. thank
god for killfiles.
On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:39:19 GMT, "The Puppy Wizard"
<ThePuppyWizard@earthlink.net> wrote:
"wombn" <wombnhearmeroar@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:l8btjv4t8tdl1g4cvbk9iqglaimdgl1ijp@4ax.com...
actually gets the kittens in trouble.
He so hates it when I discipline them (raised voice, clapped
hands,
and squirt bottle), that he has to leave the room....
But he also leaves the room when they're doing something he
thinks
will get them in trouble.
It's his actions that often bring it to my attention.
Talk about causing the thing you fear most.... heh.
There's a lesson in here somewhere. I think.
Yeah. The lesson is you don't want to learn HOWE
to pupperly handle and train your critters:
From: Jerry Howe (jhowe@cfl.rr.com)
Subject: Re: Obedience Training in Brooklyn, NY
Date: 2000-08-19 08:04:07 PST
"wombn" <wombn_nospam@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:7dk9as4o6boqnrpeahn9qrofj7vn4vko0m@4ax.com...
We're officially adopting Bruno the Foster Dog.
He's about 3 years old, very large german shepherd, excellent
personality
except for rambunctiousness and stubbornness.
Stubbornness? How do you figure that? When does he act stubborn?
What
most people call stubbornness is either apprehension or just
smart.
Dumb dogs do everything you ask. The smart dogs work harder at NOT
doing everything you ask.
Neither of which is really a demerit in my mind, of course, but
right now it's
undisciplined and potentially dangerous for him.
I haven't followed your earlier posts, but that could be what got
him
out of his original home.
I haven't found an obedience class yet, though I have some
recommendations
to look into. So yes!! yes!! yes!! yes!! we'll be taking him
(us,
actually) to classes ASAP.
I recommend against traditional obedience classes for many
reasons.
Most obedience classes use rote, where they teach you to train
your
dog using many hours of forced repetitions and physical
corrections
to force behaviors. That causes many dog to object, and creates
stress, anxiety, and animosity... Sure, they often get their dogs
to
do behaviors, but they too often sacrifice temperament, in an
effort
to do so. You could end up with a dog that does champion level
obedience, but tears up the house and is a general problem
everywhere
outside of the ring. We see that all the time here...
His previous owner obviously gave him some training, because
when we
insist, we realize that he already knows stuff.....
Anytime you are having to insist, tells me that you do not have
control, and are probably challenging the dog, which causes him to
resist you more. That might be the reason he lost his prior home.
He's food- and toy-motivated. And car-ride motivated. And
walkies-motivated. and play-motivated.
Until we can begin a class, I don't want to let him become
further
entrenched in bad habits that I have to break him of later.
O.K. Start off reading the information in the Wits' End Dog
Training
Method manual available for free at http://www.doggydoright.com
Two most critical ones at this point are:
1) Stopping him from shooting out the door like a bullet
That's easy to break using sound distractions and praise.
2) Making him stop pulling me off my feet on a leash.
That's the first thing covered in the manual. You'll learn how to
hold the leash so it is relaxed but secure in you hand, and to set
yourself up so that you have leverage and balance working for you,
so
that you won't be reflexively pulling against him and triggering
the
opposition reflex making him pull harder, consequently getting
yourself pulled around more. You'll learn how to command his
attention without pulling on him, and you'll easily break his
pulling
habit.
Husband is working on #2, since I simply don't have the physical
strength
at this point.
Right. Neither do I. We don't need force, we need to understand
how
to properly handle the lead and to command one eye and one ear of
the
dog. The Hot And Cold Exercise will teach you to do that, it only
takes a couple of minutes. The Family Leadership Exercise will
teach
him to always want to be following where you want to go, and
installing a conditioned reflex to the come command will give you
absolute control over him. That's all taught in the first lesson.
The
rest is easy once you have those basics learned... Your dog will
do
as you ask the first time, everytime
I've seen those training leads that wrap up around the
nose. Do you think that would something that could help me walk
him? or
would it prevent really training him?
The halter is meant to help the dog learn to control himself. It
calms them by pressing on a calming trigger point on the bridge of
the nose. They are a training aid and were not intended to be
necessary for long term use, although there's nothing wrong with
doing so. I've just never needed one for more than a couple of
lessons. But that was many years ago, and I've since changed my
methods a bit and haven't needed to use one in a long time.
is it good enough *for now* (until the classes begin) just so
that I can take him for
walks and not have him be completely dependent on my hubby for
them? do they
work?
Yes, but sometimes people try to use them to force the dog. That's
not how they are intended to work. The idea is not to pull, but to
gently guide the dog, and if he pulls, you've got to learn to
release
the tension and break the pulling by NOT pulling back against
him...
That's the hard part, because we always want to pull, to be in
control, but that actually makes the dog get out of control, by
triggering positive thigmotaxis, the opposition reflex. That's all
covered in the Hot And Cold Exercise, and after a couple of
minutes
working on that, you should have the pulling in good control
without
forcing or fighting with him.
But we're both working on #1. What we've been doing is *never*
letting him
go through a door (either in or out) without first sitting,
staying and
waiting for an OK.
That's one of the easier habits to break using sound distractions
and
praise, and Allelomimetic behavior. It will take you about two
hours
to study and practice everything you need to know to address all
those behaviors.
I'm hoping that eventually he'll get the idea that he
can't go outside or inside without permission.Do you think this
is
possible? Am I going about it the right way? Is there any way
of
estimating how long it will take?
Teaching him not to bolt through will only take a few minutes. If
you
wanted to teach him not to exit the open door without permission
to
go out, that would be a bit more work, but it's not that
difficult.
It's amazing how easily he can slip past me, huge as he is.
Well, you'll have to get the control without trying to physically
block him. I handle all of my dogs as thought they were too big to
move and too fragile to want to try. That leaves just one thing I
can
rely on to get my dogs to do whatever I ask... Training.
Of course, part of it is just an ability to muscle his way
through if I'm not 100%
ready to stop him
As I said, If you don't confront the dog on a physical level, you
will never be in a position where you cannot make him do what you
want...but you'll have to learn Howe.
You can get all the information you need to properly handle and
train
your dog using non force, non confrontational, scientific and
psychological behavior modification and conditioning techniques,
from the Wits' End Dog Training Method manual available for free
at
http://www.doggydoright.com
BEWARE the forgeries to confuse you and the warnings offered to
you
from our rpdb Gang Of Thugs regarding killfiling my posts and the
Wits' End Dog Training
Method manual. These people are frantic at the thought of not
having
anymore EXCUSE for being able to jerk and choke dogs on pronged,
choke, and electronic shock collars.
You cannot trust your dog's well being to people who tell you to
killfile my advice... and tell you to punish, confine, and
confront
your
dog's behavior problems. Our Gang Of Thugs are easily identifiable
by their warnings about my posts, and their killfile instructions
to
prevent me from EXPOSING THEM as the vicious, abusive, cretins
they are, AND WANT YOU TO BE, so they don't look out of sorts.
"Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and
judge things by reason's way, not by popular say." Montaigne
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor Hardin
"If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman.
DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS... j;~)
"CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw.
"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems
of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the
simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to
admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in
explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which
they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy
Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more
complaints to my personal email than any other controversial
post I have made to date, bar none?:
caveat
If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would
rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing them. If you
have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke
him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold,
hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are
appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the punisher,
or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can't train your
dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe.
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Wits' End Dog Training
Witsenddog@aol.com
http://www.doggydoright.com
Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-
There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem,
bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who
ever can't hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at
all.
-Nietzsche-
The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned
qualities.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter.
The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split
seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless
hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
|
|
| User: "Julia Altshuler" |
|
| Title: OT: occasional post |
18 Aug 2003 08:00:23 AM |
|
|
This message is posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior (r.p.d.b.) regularly and
occasionally to other newsgroups including alt.animals.dog,
rec.pets.dogs.rescue, alt.pets.dog, and rec.pets.dogs.misc. These are
unmoderated groups meaning that no one checks the messages to make sure they're
on-topic, civil or sensible before they go through.
The purpose of this occasional posting is to give information about the
newsgroup so that discussion about the newsgroup itself is cut down and
discussion about dogs increases.
Like so many usenet groups, this group has people who post annoyingly
and constantly, people who post angry and abusive messages, people who
post to irritate others. It's up to individuals to decide which posters
bother them.
Here are some guidelines that many people follow to make this newsgroup
pleasant and informative:
1. Use your killfile. A killfile (or filter) makes invisible posts by
any particular person or with any particular words in the subject line.
The posts are still there, but they don't show up on the screen of the
person using the killfile. Look at
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile/killfilefaq.htm for instructions. Or
try: http://www.graphixmad.plus.com/OE_FAQ_newsgroups.html.
2. Don't make more noise. The only thing more annoying than a troll is
an otherwise rational person arguing with or about a troll. That's
known as feeding the trolls. Please don't feed the trolls. It really
is insane to attempt rational discussion with the insane.
3. Want to exercise your right to free speech and argue about or with
trolls anyway? Put "ninnyboy" in the subject line. That way the people
who want to join the fracas can, and those who don't can opt out by
killfiling "ninnyboy." If you don't do this, expect to be killfiled
yourself. [Jerry], with the brackets is also a recognized signal.
4. Figured out that arguing with trolls is useless but still want to
talk about trolls by referring to them in the third person? Put
"ninnyboy" in the subject line then too. That subject is boring too.
5. Trim quoted posts to include only the part you're responding to.
Quoting an entire long post in order to respond to only a small piece of
it is annoying. Again, if you don't do this, expect to be killfiled.
6. Understand Candace. Candace is an automatic program that answers
troll posts automatically, repetititively and relentlessly. Most of us
find these posts boring after a short while and killfile it too. That's
O.K. You can't hurt its feelings.
7. Show no fear. Have a question or need to admit that you've made
errors in dog training in the past? This is still a good place to come
for (often contradictory) advice. Use your own judgment to decide what
advice to follow and what not to. No harm can come to you even if
people vehemently disagree, call you names or repost your old messages.
8. Label off-topic threads as "OT." A label helps people decide what
to read and what not to.
9. Check the F.A.Q. for answers to frequent non-complicated questions.
10. Don't post pictures. This is not a binary newsgroup. That's plain
text only, no HTML, no attachments. If you'd like, post a pointer to a
website with pictures on it.
11. Don't crosspost. It's bad enough when someone posts something dog
related to all the groups having to do with dogs. It's worse when
totally unrelated groups get tossed in the mix. Feel like you
absolutely have to jump in on something that's been crossposted to unrelated
groups? Erase the extraneous ones when you answer.
.
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|
|
| User: "The Puppy Wizard" |
|
| Title: Re: occasional post |
18 Aug 2003 06:33:09 PM |
|
|
"Julia Altshuler" <jaltshuler@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3F40CEEB.564E0134@comcast.net...
This message is posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior (r.p.d.b.)
regularly and
occasionally to other newsgroups including alt.animals.dog,
rec.pets.dogs.rescue, alt.pets.dog, and rec.pets.dogs.misc.
These are
unmoderated groups meaning that no one checks the messages to
make sure they're
on-topic, civil or sensible before they go through.
The purpose of this occasional posting is to give information
about the
newsgroup so that discussion about the newsgroup itself is cut
down and
discussion about dogs increases.
Like so many usenet groups, this group has people who post
annoyingly
and constantly, people who post angry and abusive messages,
people who
post to irritate others. It's up to individuals to decide which
posters
bother them.
Here's your dog Cubbe attackin your only friend and
trying to attack a couple kids:
"It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With
Her Usual ZAP Collar - The 10 Year Old Child Went To
Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got
Out In The Neighborhood Leashless From:
Julia F N Altshuler (d000634c@dc.seflin.org)
Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back
Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST
Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first time
in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we first got
her before she'd had any training and before we got the
electric fence to reinforce the physical one.
It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored clickers
and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible for us. She
had a blast running free and chasing whatever she wanted. For
us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we tried to catch her.
Luckily there wasn't too much traffic yesterday morning. It
had snowed, and the streets weren't quite clear yet. Jim
finally caught her when she was preoccupied with her head down
a hole.
For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the
neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She gets
daily indoor clicker training sessions. She has perfect
recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats for those
recalls. She gets plenty of time to run free in the backyard.
Her recalls are less reliable there, but I've been working on
them. I haven't been as good about introducing the variable
reinforcement there, but I have been good about making sure
that she's never tricked into coming into the house when she'd
rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat or
praise and let her go again.
So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't think I'm
a terrible one. I say that because I'm about to ask y'all for
some help in correcting my mistakes, and while I don't mind
criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping you'll concentrate on
what I should do now.
Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time. I'd
gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave when she
escaped straight through the front door and right in front of
our noses. She was still wearing the zap collar, but the
battery was low. She gave a small yip when she went over the
wire, and the chase ensued.
We were careful not to scold her once she was caught.
Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collar
now with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to
come in when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I
could tell that she fully expected to be let out the front
door again so she could have another fun romp in the
neighborhood. I'm so filled with anxiety from yesterday's
escapade that I keep checking for her every time I open the
door.
Later in the afternoon, she was much worse
about coming when called even from the backyard.
My specific questions:
How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows
when she's in a confined space and when she isn't?
She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the
backyard because the wire goes around the house and could zap
her when she's near certain windows inside. If I let her get
zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can I still take
the zap collar off and walk her out the front door with her
leash on? I don't want her to become afraid of the front door.
What's the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it should
happen again?
Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this
I mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because
she so obviously freaked when we used leash corrections and
scoldings when we first got her.
I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the
whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and
won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some
dogs.
Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the
beginning, but we've come a long way since then. She trusts
us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been
rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in
the mildest way, for not coming.
Is it time for that?
What might I look for to tell?
Last night we had friends over for dinner with their 3
daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and were
having a blast clicker training her. I was impressed with how
quickly they caught on and how little correction they needed
to be consistent with the clicks and treats. Cubbe was fine
with the children; she always has been. Just as they were
getting ready to go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug.
Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined because she gave
a snarl-snap.
I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled,
turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her
know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't frightened
at all, and her parents who were also right there hadn't
realized what had happened. I then asked the snarlee to rub
Cubbe's belly further to reinforce that Cubbe is the
submissive one in that relationship. I let Cubbe up and all
was fine.
I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part of
wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now.
Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it
was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing
with Cubbe the escapee?
--Lia
"Julia Altshuler" <jaltshuler@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3DC4A3BD.645A4FC9@attbi.com...
I need help deciding if I have a real problem with Cubbe
that needs immediate attention or if I'm imagining trouble
where there is none.
Here's what happened last April the way I described it to
a friend at the time:
I'm worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I'm kicking myself for
doing something stupid. Ellie has been over many times and
has always gotten along great with Cubbe. Cubbe is always
at the door when I let Ellie in.
She's barky-protective but then stops barking once Ellie is
inside. She's never shown any real aggression. The other
night Ellie and I went out together to run an errand.
Ellie was coming in the house with packages so I came in
first and put Cubbe in the bedroom with Jim so Ellie could
get through the door more easily. I could hear Cubbe
barking. Once Ellie was inside, I opened the bedroom door
for Cubbe. She ran out to attack the intruder. Ellie was
trying to be friendly.
Ellie put a tooth in Ellie's finger. Granted the resulting
scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed when
they get dry and I don't rub lotion into them every night,
but Ellie was understandably scared.
Jim ran out and got control of Cubbe right away. I got
Ellie some alcohol and a bandage. The scary thing is that,
even though the damage is minor, it does qualify as a bite
since Cubbe did mean to do it. I guess I should just learn
from it and never let Cubbe greet someone like that again,
but I'm horribly torn up.
I've said that I would never keep an aggressive dog. Now
the whole issue is so complicated. Cubbe is great even
with kids when we meet them in the neighborhood.
Since then I've been careful not to do anything like that.
Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the night in the
computer room with Jim while I answered the door. She did
bark each time she heard the doorbell ring. We did nothing
to discourage that. We want her to be barky protective so
it made sense for her to bark when she heard people in the
neighborhood, especially at night. Later in the evening,
Jim put Cubbe on a leash and was hanging out with her in the
front hall while I still got the door. One of the first
people to come to the door once she was out of the computer
room was our neighbor Nicky.
I think Nicky is 11 now. He's known Cubbe since we got her
4 years ago, has always liked her, petted her and asked to
come on walks. Nick lifted his mask on the porch so I'd
know who it was. Then I invited him into the hall to pet
Cubbe.
Cubbe snarled and sort of air snapped at him. Of course
Jim was right there so no damage was done. Nick didn't
even have to draw his hand away, and he didn't get scared.
Nothing scares that boy.
I don't like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly
protective-aggressive when people have entered the house.
Both times they've been people she knows and should like.
She's wonderfully nice to people on walks. We don't have
guests over too often so I can't comment if it's a growing
thing or not.
Comments please. Is this a major growing aggression
problem?
I'd guess it's territoriality about the house and yard.
What do I do about it?
I usually put Cubbe on a leash when friends come over
and then walk her outside while the friend gets out of
her car, and then we walk in together.
She'll still bark when they're in the house and then
calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be
doing something more to make sure this doesn't escalate?
--Lia
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "The Puppy Wizard" |
|
| Title: Re: occasional post |
18 Aug 2003 06:37:49 PM |
|
|
HOWEDY liea,
"Julia Altshuler" <jaltshuler@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3F40CEEB.564E0134@comcast.net...
This message is posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior (r.p.d.b.)
regularly and
occasionally to other newsgroups including alt.animals.dog,
rec.pets.dogs.rescue, alt.pets.dog, and rec.pets.dogs.misc.
These are
unmoderated groups meaning that no one checks the messages to
make sure they're
on-topic, civil or sensible before they go through.
The purpose of this occasional posting is to give information
about the
newsgroup so that discussion about the newsgroup itself is cut
down and
discussion about dogs increases.
Like so many usenet groups, this group has people who post
annoyingly
and constantly, people who post angry and abusive messages,
people who
post to irritate others. It's up to individuals to decide which
posters
bother them.
Here are some guidelines that many people follow to make this
newsgroup
pleasant and informative:
Can you tell the TRUTH from a LIE?:
Jerome Bigge writes:
I do know that hitting, hurting
your dog will often make the
dog either aggressive or a fear
biter, neither of which we want to do.
And then we got, matty! Follow his discussion!
This is what's called, a liar and dog abuser:
And neither does anyone else,
Jerome. No matter
what Jerry Howe states.
"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This I've Suggested It To Quite
A Few Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY
TIME The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer,
33 Years Experience.
You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for her coment above
regarding her success with The Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy
Separation Anxiety / Bed Time Calming Technique (STSA/BTCT)?
Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z, who
commented that his bed time calming technique was quite
similar?
You're scary Marilyn.
Marilyn must be quite a disturbed
individual. I feel very sorry for her
and her family.
"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.
BUT, giving you the benefit of the
doubt, please provide a quote (an
original quote, not from one of Jerry
Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
shows a regular poster promoting or
using an abusive form of training.
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to
MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY???
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know
Jack Wouldn't HaveDone It If He Thought Solo
Couldn't Take It. I Still Crate Him Because
Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.
You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN
SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer
is INTELLIGENT BEHAVIOR for a DOG LOVER?
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A
Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."
You think HURTIN dogs and CRINGING
is COURTEOUS?
"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?"
Means the author is a dog abuser of the worst magnitude.
"When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time,
spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk away.
The dog won't be too thrilled with this but just ignore him
and continue your normal behavior."
You think HURTING your dog is NORMAL BEHAVIOR?
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"Courteous Canines"
You think HOWER pal mikey is playin with a full deck?
Yeah. When I preload my dog's mouth with bitter apple,
suppose I don't get used to being stupid and cruel, mikey?
Then HOWE do I train my dog if I can't HURT it?
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm Over The Lab's
Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled
Her On Her Side, Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into Her
Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sionnach.
Oh, THANKS, sinofabitch...
And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context,
because you are full of bizarro manure."
"Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.
Tougher, less tractable dogs may require
you to progress to striking them more
sharply," lying frosty dahl, ethical breeder,
expert trainer.
You think a EXXXPERT trainer got to BEAT
a HUNTIN dog to MAKE IT HUNT?
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies HURT all
their lives like HOWE HOWER dog lovers PREFER to
HURT THEIR DOGS?
"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."
The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.
We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...
terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."
Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should knee the dog in
the chest, step on its toes, throw him down by his ears and
climb all over it like a raped ape growling into his throat
and bite IT on his ears, or leash pop it on a pronged spiked
pinch choke collar or pop him in the snout with the heel of
your palm.
"BethF" <dawg@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:ugc7us32ki5fb9@corp.supernews.com...
"Frank" <flmarcher@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:d2f1624e.0206101912.2980eb03@posting.google.com...
dfrntdrums@aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah) wrote in message
news:<20020610173326.01953.00000597@mb-fx.aol.com>...
"brianev" wrote:
I ENJOYED reading your book, and
AGREED with what you had to say.
I find it sick to hear what people
do with their dogs.
:
Keep in mind that everything he says that
the regular posters of this ng do to their
dogs are lies.
:
All of it. Every last bit.
:
All of it?
:
Ear pinching?
:
Shock collars?
:
Spiked chokers?
:
The regulars lie more in their denials than
Howe does in his accusing of them.
:
Uh, Frank? Who do you see denying anything?
Its quite interesting that a newbie like yourself
would see denials when everyone has Jerry
killfiled and therefore don't even read his posts,
let alone respond to them.
"Rocky" <2dogs@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
When you compare using sound and
praise to solve a problem with using
shock collars, hanging, and punishment
how can you criticize the use of sound?
There's nothing more to be said, then.
You've made up your mind.
But you've impressed me by mentioning
that you're a professor with 30 years of
experience.
So, can you cite some examples of
people recommending "shock collars,
hanging, and punishment"?
BWWWAWHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
You think matty's playin with a full
goddamned deck?
matty's NOT a liar and dog abuser.
Isn't that true, Marilyn?
Of course not, but THIS IS:
"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
professora gingold.
"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:a3h5qn$mra$1@uwm.edu...
Di,
I don't believe you mentioned a particular
kind of training. If you are interested in
training retrieval behavior than do
consider our own Amy Dahl's:
The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a
Well-Mannered, Obedient and
Enthusiastic Gun Dog in 10 Minutes a
Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl
You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:"
"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A
Dog I Do Not Believe There Is A Single
Circumstance Ever, Where Slapping A
Dog Is Anything But Destructive,"
LUCKY thing CHIN CHUCK absolutely don't
mean slap the goddamned dog, we'd look like
a conspiracy of LIARS and DOG abusers if
CHIN CHUCK DID mean SLAP the dog.
"I don't see why anyone would want to choke or
beat a dog, or how any trainer could possibly get
a good working dog by making them unhapper,
fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying frosty dahl.
DOES THAT SOUND LIKE THE TRUTH?
just $17.95 at Amazon.com.
(Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
few regulars here who are either ill-
tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
--Marshall
Or HOWE about HOWER just plain CRUEL
STUPID and ABUSIVE DOG ABUSERS,
professor SCRUFF SHAKE?
amy lying frosty dahl continues:
"On the other extreme, the really hard dogs
we have trained require much more
frequent and heavy application of pressure
(PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,
This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher,
less tractable dogs may require you to
progress to striking them more sharply"
BUT NOBODY DOES THAT HERE...
"Try pinching the ear between the metal
casing and the collar, even the buckle on
the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will
give in but will squeal, thrash around, and
direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch"
OR ATTACKING HIS ABUSER.
"You can press the dog's ear with a
shotshell instead of your thumb even
get a studded collar and pinch the ear
against that Make the dog's need to stop
the pinching so urgent that resisting your
will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever
Ready Right Hand, As it catches on, try
using the stick and no ear pinch.
When the dog is digging out to beat the
stick and seems totally reliable without
any ear pinch, you are finished
This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome"
If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly
under the chin, say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps
because the ear is getting tender, or the
dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying
frosty dahl.
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.
From: Marshall Dermer (dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
In article <38CC0C43.94E2DDD1@earthlink.net>
rhurwitz@earthlink.net writes:
-snip headers etc.
Yes. you're right, I really should find
the book.. they don't have these books
in the local pet stores I frequent, where
do you find Koehler?
I got a nice large print copy from
Amazon.com
Richard
Please try Powell's Books in Portland
Oregon. Their URL is:
http://www.powells.com/
Unlike Amazon.com, Powell's keeps both
new and used books on its shelves. You
can order books via e-email.
Koehler Method Of Dog
Training
by Koehler, W R
Published by HOWELL BOOK
HOUSE (0876056575,
========================================================
Here's some quotes and some methods right outta your
koehler book professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and scream
"NO!" into its face for 5 seconds:"
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training (1962). New York:
Howell Book Book House(p. 52-53)."
Hanging
"First, the trainer makes certain that the collar
and leash are more than adequate for any jerk
or strain that the dog's most frantic actions could
cause. Then he starts to work the dog deliberately
and fairly to the point where the dog makes his grab.
Before the teeth have reached their target,
the dog, weight permitting, is jerked from
the ground.
As in coping with some of the afore-mentioned
problems the dog is suspended in mid-air.
However, to let the biting dog recover
his footing while he still had the strength
to renew the attack would be cruelty.
The only justifiable course is to hold him
suspended until he has neither the strength
nor inclination to renew the fight.
When finally it is obvious that he is
physically incapable of expressing his
resentment and is lowered to the ground,
he will probably stagger loop-legged for a
few steps, vomit once or twice, and roll
over on his side.
The sight of a dog lying, thick-tongued,
on his side, is not pleasant, but do not
let it alarm you
THE REAL "HOOD"
"If your dog is a real "hood" who would
regard the foregoing types of protest as
"kid stuff" and would express his
resentment of your efforts by biting,
your problem is difficult -- and pressing.
"Professional trainers often get these
extreme problems. Nearly always the
"protest biter" is the handiwork of a
person who, by avoiding situations that
the dog might resent, has nurtured the
seeds of rebellion and then cultivated
the resultant growth with under correction.
When these people reap their inevitable
and oftentimes painful harvest, they are
ready to avail themselves of "the cruel
trainer" whose advice they may have
once rejected because it was incompatible
with the sugary droolings of mealy-
mouthed columnists, breed-ring biddies,
and dog psychologists who, by the
broken skins and broken hearts their
misinformation causes, can be proven guilty
of the greatest act of cruelty to animals
since the dawn of time.
"With more genuine compassion for the
biting dog than would ever be demonstrated
by those who are "too kind" to make a
correction and certainly with more disregard
for his safety, the professional trainer
morally feels obligated to perform a "major
operation."
"Since we are presently concerned with
the dog that bites in resentment of the
demands of training, we will set our
example in that situation. (In a later
chapter we will deal with the with the
much easier problem of the dog that
bites someone other than his master."
Are we havin FUN yet?
Got a lite, professor SCRUFF SHAKE?
The Puppy Wizard. <} : ~ ) >
============================================
I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
you'd be singing a different tune?
"Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
for the trash company to come and dispose of.
No different tune," ~Emily
"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me. I volunteered
as assistant to the euthanasia tech at our local shelter
for a while, and I know a bit about overpopulation and
unwanted animals.
This however has nothing at all to do with responsible
breeders, because responsible breeders don't contribute
to that problem," Mustang Sally.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
================
lynn kosmakos (Lithium, Zoloft, bipolar, manic,
depression) will "put down a
biter
as fast as anyone" yet claims
to
be a saintly dog rescuer
Lynn K. wrote:
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
---------------------------------
"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted
condition.
Should I have refused to groom them?
Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
Lynn K.
--------------------------------------
RPD* Mentally Ill AllStaRz as of 7/4/03
-----------------------------------------------
MENTAL ILLNESS IN RPD*
Mental illness is a public issue in these newsgroups. People
are always running around calling other people mentally ill
and diagnosing their illnesses. I think it's only fair that
we have an accurate list of who is and who isn't mentally
ill, so that we can avoid any misunderstandings and promote
group harmony.
Updated list as of 7/04/2003:
list of confirmed or suspected mentally ill (crazy) Regulars
Most of whom are women or homosexuals
=======================================
MaryBeth
MVP (most valuable psycho)
Has contributed greatly to the
annual profit results at several large
pharmaceutical corps has taken
virtually
every mentally drug treatment in the
book,
and then some: prozac, zoloft,
amitryptiline,
Buspar, Xanax, in the head effexor,
paxil, HRT, wellbutrin, tranquilizers,
clomid,
has suffered from or been:
(super psycho ***** lunatic
ill (crazy) queen of the mentally fucked
suicidal, agoraphobic, tidal waves
of PMS, mood swings, turned into a
hermit,
bloated, just real angry, hubby afraid
of her,
high blood pressure, divorced, "raving
*****" "zoloft zombie" for four
years,
"living through layers and layers of
gauze," chain smoker, buzzing, weight
gain,
fatigue, terrible dry mouth, dull
headaches,
fuzzy brain, lack of
concentration..etc.
severe depression, severe insomnia,
Panic
ALL the time, crying, not sleeping,
you name
it...etc...
MaryBeth (on being seriously f'd in the head
aka mentally ill) aka cuckoo! kuckoo! ding! ding!
ding! aka a superpsychotic ***** from hell
"I know for a fact I went thru years
of
being overly sensitive, being a b*tch,
being self centered, being self
pitying,
you name it, I was a wreck and I
ran over everyone in my path."
"<G> I do know the power of meds
,especially
on a long term basis, and it's not
pretty.
You become another person, if it's
not the correct med for you.
--All the best,
MaryBeth
"Yup Diane, I am taking Zoloft, and my
Rheumatologist told me that taking
Ultram with it can cause seizures."
"I have all the symptoms. I am
suicidal at
times (cyclical) have severe insomnia,
'crawly' skin etc. I have an appt to
see
my doc next Friday to test for
menopause."
--MaryBeth
"I noticed that antidepressants cut
libido
into the dead zone and I had no real
emotions,
like not laughing at funny stuff,
couldn't cry
either.....except about my suicidal
thoughts
(but at the time I thought there was
no other
way out)."
--MaryBeth
"Hi, new to group, just starting
Clomid today.
I talked with RE and pharmacist re:
zoloft (50
mg daily) and ineraction with Clomid.
They
reported none. Not sure about the
prozac tho.
Gonna poat a new message to intorduce
myself :)"
--MaryBeth <still feeling like
herself> <G>
"I wasted about 10 years of my life,
and lost
many many treasured ppl and things.
Please
don't do the same.
(((((((SCOUT))))))))))
--MaryBeth
"Slowly but surely my depression got
worse and
worse. They put me on meds for it, and
all
along kept telling me to wait on the
TKR, as
'it really wasn't that bad.....yet".
HA!"
The depression got so bad, and lots of
other
things happened and my ex and I would
up
divorced four years after our move.
It was horrible. The hardest thing
I have eve gone thru"
--MaryBeth
Theresa Willis (paxil, depression, robot
displacement)
shelly couvrette OCD, depression, drugs to be
named later (familial mental
illness,
possibly related to family bed)
obsessively
starves her dogs according to
friends,
family, strangers and 3 different
vets, but not herself
lynn kosmakos (Lithium, Zoloft, bipolar, manic,
depression) will "put down a
biter as fast as anyone" yet claims
to be a saintly dog rescuer
Leah Effexor for chronic depression, in
denial about being mentally ill.
Has
taken several other mentally ill
medications before settling on
effexor for
her chronic mental problems
Tara Green was on antidepressants for a few
years prior to her marriage.
During
her marriage, she learned a lot:
"With the therapist I saw during
my
marriage I learned that some
situational depressions are masked
as
chemical simply because of our too
human
ability to prolong the impact of
the
causal situations indefinitely"
Sounds like more denial, see leah
Tara is also a drunk who has
also had problems with other
substances
TARA on being a
drunk/substance abuser:
"Tara (who had some problems
with quite a few substances as
well, but
who thinks they are separate
issues.....so
which camp does that put me in???)"
"Believe it or not, some people
don't have
a problem with drugs even though
they are
alcoholics. I'm not one of those
people,
but they do exist."
aka, tara has problems with both
Kevin Michael various mental illness drugs, started
with Vail zoloft, didn't like that,then went to
antidepressant, stopped after
sufficent
side effects, now on SSRI and in
therapy
Furpaw (SSRI, cognitive therapy)
Chris Jung (Prozac and Welbutrin, cognitive
therapy)
Charlie Wilkes drugged out, crazy, fucked up all his
life, Christ the ***** he's been
through
including psych wards and
electroshock
treatments but now pulling
down
major cash as a business
consultant.
Triumphing over adversity,
with a damn
good life and a well trained
dog (very much
unlike Leah)
Karen DuChateaux suffered from clinical depression
for years aka Karibear
until some drug or
something brought her out
of it. Some of > her best
friends "are certifiable" and have
various degrees of
psychoses. Familial > mental
disability.
Refuses to say whether or not she is
currently using drug or cognitive therapy
for mental illness.
Mike "DumbOxDumb" threatened non violent dog expert
Jerry Howe Dufort (pending) with Mike's fully armed
US Army Platoon.
Threatened to bring his platoon to
Jerry's
HOWSE. also OCD (obsessed with
Jerry's posts)
Jim Sabatke Jim is currently on Effexor which he takes
because of his depression/mental problems.
Like many of our mental cases, Jim
has had trouble finding the right
med(s) to
keep him from going kuckoo!!
kuckoooo!!! or
getting the "brain shivers"
From: Jim Sabatke (jsabatke@execpc.com)
Subject: Re: anyone using Effexor?
alt.support.depression.medication
Date: 2002-11-29 20:25:16 PST
EFFEXOR
"I'm on 375 mg/day and it has worked
wonders for me. The only down side is
that my blood pressure has elevated
somewhat; oh and if I miss a dose by a
couple of hours the "brain shivers" can
be really bad.
Good luck!
Jim"
"I switched from Paxil to Effexor about
5 months ago. I tapered off of the Paxil
and tapered onto the Effexor at the same
time."
Jim
"After several years on Effexor IR, my
pdoc tried switching me to XR. I
experienced fairly severe Effexor
withdrawel until I went back to the IR."
Jim
<YOUR NAME GOES HERE>
(please proudly add your name and the drugs/disorders
specific to you, if you are also mentally ill). If we all
come forward, we can help each other with our problems.
Remember, mental illness is nothing to be ashamed of. It's
not your fault if you have a defective brain which may cause
you to act like an extreme hypocrite and/or idiot and/or
robot without your being aware of it).
Also, please notify us if you are *not* mentally ill, and
have been added to this by mistake, so we can make our
corrections and remove you from the crazy person list.
===========================================
--
mental health weekly
--
michael
live...
http://dogtv.com/hope_attacks.mpg
http://dogtv.com/hope_attacks.mpg
http://dogtv.com/hope_attacks.mpg
http://dogtv.com/hope_attacks.mpg
http://dogtv.com/hope_attacks.mpg
========================================================
SHELLY IS THE ONLY ONE WHO DOESN'T THINK HATTIE IS STARVING
"when i got harriet she was emaciated, so i asked my vet for
advice on slowly adding weight to her. six months later i
took harriet in for her spring check-up and my vet was
surprised that at how thin she still was."
--shelly couvrette
"<raises hand> i've been told by three different vets that
harriet (53lbs) is *way* too skinny. we're still
vet-shopping, BTW."
--shelly couvrette
"if you really can't resist
it when your dog pulls the "i'm starving!" routine <G>, you
can give him some frozen green beans or a small amount of
plain pureed pumpkin.
i would also suggest putting the food out of his sight. i
keep my food--still inside the bags, which are tightly rolled
down--inside trash cans in the closed laundry room. that
keeps it fresh and keeps it out of my dogs' sight."
--shelly couvrette
"heh. i get the opposite response. people think that poor
little harriet is positively starved to death. i've
actually had people stop me in the pet supply shop and tell
me that i need to fatten her up!"
--shelly couvrette
"i think that may be part of the problem. who wants to go
to a vet who tells you you're hurting your widdle precious?
i think the other part is that some vets really don't
*realize* that what they consider proper weight is fat.
after having been told by a couple of vets that my dogs are
too thin, i've got a dim view of vets on that topic."
--shelly couvrette
"my mom is kinda that way, but not *as* bad. she thinks
that harriet is awfully skinny, so feeding her table snax is
okay. she tells me that just a bite won't hurt."
--shelly couvrette
NOBODY IS STARVING FAT PIG SHELLY
NOBODY WILL STOP SHELLY ON THE STREET
AND TELL HER SHE IS STARVING HERSELF
shelly's fat face
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette/Wshelly2.jpg
=======================================================
There are a lot of big fat women on these groups who starve
their dogs out of vanity, but shelly is a special case.
shelly is moore than a little bit beyond the pale
Shelly has OCD, and maybe she's just a little obsessive
about measuring out extra tiny and discrete portions with a
tiny measuring cup, or counting out pieces of green bean or
pumpkin that she gives her dogs when they give her the "I'm
Starving" routine. When grandma tried to give Hattie a
snack, shelly probably went apeshit, because it was in
violation of her Obsessive need to oversee every tiny
calorie that goes into her widdle precious' mouth.
shelly's a special case, a special kind of dog abuser.
.
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