| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"Noon Cat Nick" |
| Date: |
03 May 2007 06:50:46 PM |
| Object: |
Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
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Luna wrote:
Gotta love the Onion.
Jeff/jfk and I once had an interesting discussion on the topic of "do
bad/feel bad". I wonder if Hitler was depressed? Stalin? Is Bush
depressed?
Bush is a carrier. He infects others with depression.
Stalin and Hitler were psychopaths with political power. Such people
live on chaos. Even Lenin warned his confederates about Joe.
The whole thing is too chicken/egg for me to comprehend. I do know
people who don't suffer from depression who aren't very nice. I know
people who suffer from it who are quite (air quotes) successful.
Maybe because said depression sufferers had to do the very hard work to
get where they are. Numerous non-sufferers don't do the very hard work,
since (they think) there's nothing wrong with them, so it must be
somebody else's fault when things don't go so well.
Here's one element. If you are depressed you tend to not want to
clean up after yourself, your place becomes a mess and this leads to
feeling even worse. So, if you can force yourself to maintain a clean
environment through self discipline it can help you feel at least a
little better.
I've always found that I have to maintain stringent practices, in some
instances almost bordering on OCD, to maintain orderliness in my life.
(Maybe that's part of why I'm fond of the liturgical traditions. No
variation there; a very strict structure to all their services.) When my
sense of order starts to crumble, that's when I know I getting depressed
or hypomanic.
It's hard though. I remember once during a suicidal depression being
told to "go outside for a walk". The pointlessness of that advice
felt idiotic to me in spite of the fact that it probably felt pretty
sensible to the person giving it. Get out, move, breathe in the fresh
air.
And take a bubble bath, wear bright clothing, smile a lot, go to church,
drink camomile tea, watch a comedy, listen to some Mozart, and pray pray
pray. There, don't you feel better already? No? Well, then, you just
WANT to be depressed, you lazy selfish jerk. Boy, you try to help
somebody and they ***** all over you. (Hey, don't think I making all of
that up, either.)
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Luna wrote:
<blockquote cite="midgPs_h.157042$6m4.61071@pd7urf1no" type="cite">
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Gotta love the Onion.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Jeff/jfk and I once had an
interesting discussion on the topic of "do bad/feel bad". I wonder
if Hitler was depressed? Stalin? Is Bush depressed?</font></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Bush is a carrier. He infects others with depression.<br>
<br>
Stalin and Hitler were psychopaths with political power. Such people
live on chaos. Even Lenin warned his confederates about Joe.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="midgPs_h.157042$6m4.61071@pd7urf1no" type="cite">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">The whole thing is too chicken/egg
for me to comprehend. I do know people who don't suffer from
depression who aren't very nice. I know people who suffer from it who
are quite (air quotes) successful.</font></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Maybe because said depression sufferers had to do the very hard work to
get where they are. Numerous non-sufferers don't do the very hard work,
since (they think) there's nothing wrong with them, so it must be
somebody else's fault when things don't go so well.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="midgPs_h.157042$6m4.61071@pd7urf1no" type="cite">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Here's one element. If you are
depressed you tend to not want to clean up after yourself, your place
becomes a mess and this leads to feeling even worse. So, if you can
force yourself to maintain a clean environment through self discipline
it can help you feel at least a little better.</font></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I've always found that I have to maintain stringent practices, in some
instances almost bordering on OCD, to maintain orderliness in my life.
(Maybe that's part of why I'm fond of the liturgical traditions. No
variation there; a very strict structure to all their services.) When
my sense of order starts to crumble, that's when I know I getting
depressed or hypomanic.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="midgPs_h.157042$6m4.61071@pd7urf1no" type="cite">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">It's hard though. I remember once
during a suicidal depression being told to "go outside for a walk".
The pointlessness of that advice felt idiotic to me in spite of the
fact that it probably felt pretty sensible to the person giving it.
Get out, move, breathe in the fresh air.</font></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
And take a bubble bath, wear bright clothing, smile a lot, go to
church, drink camomile tea, watch a comedy, listen to some Mozart, and
pray pray pray. There, don't you feel better already? No? Well, then,
you just WANT to be depressed, you lazy selfish jerk. Boy, you try to
help somebody and they ***** all over you. (Hey, don't think I making
all of that up, either.)
</body>
</html>
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| User: "Gayle" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
03 May 2007 07:53:35 PM |
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|
Noon Cat Nick wrote:
And take a bubble bath, wear bright clothing, smile a lot, go to church,
drink camomile tea, watch a comedy, listen to some Mozart, and pray pray
pray. There, don't you feel better already? No? Well, then, you just
WANT to be depressed, you lazy selfish jerk. Boy, you try to help
somebody and they ***** all over you. (Hey, don't think I making all of
that up, either.)
Here's a bunch more from a list compiled
in asd in '95:
http://home.blarg.net/~charlatn/depression/worst.things.html
Some examples:
12. "There are a lot of people worse off
than you?"
13. "You have it so good, why aren't you
happy?"
14. "It's a beautiful day!"
15. "You have so many things to be
thankful for, why are you depressed!"
16. "What do you have to be depressed
about".
17. "Happiness is a choice"
Gayle
.
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| User: "Noon Cat Nick" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
03 May 2007 08:16:12 PM |
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Gayle wrote:
Noon Cat Nick wrote:
And take a bubble bath, wear bright clothing, smile a lot, go to
church, drink camomile tea, watch a comedy, listen to some Mozart,
and pray pray pray. There, don't you feel better already? No? Well,
then, you just WANT to be depressed, you lazy selfish jerk. Boy, you
try to help somebody and they ***** all over you. (Hey, don't think I
making all of that up, either.)
Here's a bunch more from a list compiled in asd in '95:
http://home.blarg.net/~charlatn/depression/worst.things.html
Some examples:
12. "There are a lot of people worse off than you?"
13. "You have it so good, why aren't you happy?"
14. "It's a beautiful day!"
15. "You have so many things to be thankful for, why are you depressed!"
16. "What do you have to be depressed about".
17. "Happiness is a choice"
Gayle
Yeah, I have those "Worst" and "Best Things to Say" lists archived
somewhere, thankfully. They still come in uncommonly handy from time to
time.
.
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| User: "Gayle" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
03 May 2007 09:21:17 PM |
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Noon Cat Nick wrote:
Yeah, I have those "Worst" and "Best Things to Say" lists archived
somewhere, thankfully. They still come in uncommonly handy from time to
time.
I've never seen the "best things to say"
list. If you come across it again, I'd
love to read some. I'm tryin' to imagine
even one. Hmmm. Other than "go ahead and
just talk until yer all talked out and I
won't say a word".
Gayle
.
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| User: "Noon Cat Nick" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
03 May 2007 10:06:12 PM |
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Gayle wrote:
Noon Cat Nick wrote:
Yeah, I have those "Worst" and "Best Things to Say" lists archived
somewhere, thankfully. They still come in uncommonly handy from time
to time.
I've never seen the "best things to say" list. If you come across it
again, I'd love to read some. I'm tryin' to imagine even one. Hmmm.
Other than "go ahead and just talk until yer all talked out and I
won't say a word".
http://home.avvanta.com/~charlatn/depression/Best.things.html
(and other sites as well)
.
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| User: "Luna" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
04 May 2007 10:07:50 AM |
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"Noon Cat Nick" <chatdemidiSPAMBEGONE@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Eqx_h.33654$n_.24710@attbi_s21...
Gayle wrote:
Noon Cat Nick wrote:
Yeah, I have those "Worst" and "Best Things to Say" lists archived
somewhere, thankfully. They still come in uncommonly handy from time
to time.
I've never seen the "best things to say" list. If you come across it
again, I'd love to read some. I'm tryin' to imagine even one. Hmmm.
Other than "go ahead and just talk until yer all talked out and I
won't say a word".
http://home.avvanta.com/~charlatn/depression/Best.things.html
(and other sites as well)
I like Gayle's comment and I like the list. It's pretty much about not
trying to fix it.
Jean
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| User: "%" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
04 May 2007 10:09:53 AM |
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"Luna" <lunajean@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a%H_h.158712$6m4.14898@pd7urf1no...
"Noon Cat Nick" <chatdemidiSPAMBEGONE@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Eqx_h.33654$n_.24710@attbi_s21...
Gayle wrote:
Noon Cat Nick wrote:
Yeah, I have those "Worst" and "Best Things to Say" lists
archived
somewhere, thankfully. They still come in uncommonly handy from
time
to time.
I've never seen the "best things to say" list. If you come across
it
again, I'd love to read some. I'm tryin' to imagine even one.
Hmmm.
Other than "go ahead and just talk until yer all talked out and I
won't say a word".
http://home.avvanta.com/~charlatn/depression/Best.things.html
(and other sites as well)
I like Gayle's comment and I like the list. It's pretty much about
not
trying to fix it.
Jean
i like , " go with it "
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| User: "Luna" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
04 May 2007 10:30:09 AM |
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"%" <persent@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cfWdnTNVSbF00abbnZ2dnUVZ_gGdnZ2d@giganews.com...
"Luna" <lunajean@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a%H_h.158712$6m4.14898@pd7urf1no...
"Noon Cat Nick" <chatdemidiSPAMBEGONE@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Eqx_h.33654$n_.24710@attbi_s21...
Gayle wrote:
Noon Cat Nick wrote:
Yeah, I have those "Worst" and "Best Things to Say" lists
archived
somewhere, thankfully. They still come in uncommonly handy from
time
to time.
I've never seen the "best things to say" list. If you come across
it
again, I'd love to read some. I'm tryin' to imagine even one.
Hmmm.
Other than "go ahead and just talk until yer all talked out and I
won't say a word".
http://home.avvanta.com/~charlatn/depression/Best.things.html
(and other sites as well)
I like Gayle's comment and I like the list. It's pretty much about
not
trying to fix it.
Jean
i like , " go with it "
Same thing they say while you're in labour.
Jean
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| User: "%" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
04 May 2007 10:34:44 AM |
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"Luna" <lunajean@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5kI_h.158264$DE1.155898@pd7urf2no...
"%" <persent@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cfWdnTNVSbF00abbnZ2dnUVZ_gGdnZ2d@giganews.com...
"Luna" <lunajean@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a%H_h.158712$6m4.14898@pd7urf1no...
"Noon Cat Nick" <chatdemidiSPAMBEGONE@hotmail.com> wrote in
message
news:Eqx_h.33654$n_.24710@attbi_s21...
Gayle wrote:
Noon Cat Nick wrote:
Yeah, I have those "Worst" and "Best Things to Say" lists
archived
somewhere, thankfully. They still come in uncommonly handy
from
time
to time.
I've never seen the "best things to say" list. If you come
across
it
again, I'd love to read some. I'm tryin' to imagine even one.
Hmmm.
Other than "go ahead and just talk until yer all talked out
and I
won't say a word".
http://home.avvanta.com/~charlatn/depression/Best.things.html
(and other sites as well)
I like Gayle's comment and I like the list. It's pretty much
about
not
trying to fix it.
Jean
i like , " go with it "
Same thing they say while you're in labour.
Jean
the only child birth i ever attended never had those words in it ,
but i did get called a lot of names and took a lot of blame ,
and my hand got squished a few times
.
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| User: "Gayle" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
04 May 2007 07:58:50 AM |
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Noon Cat Nick wrote:
http://home.avvanta.com/~charlatn/depression/Best.things.html
(and other sites as well)
Thanks, Nick, although I gotta say: some
of 'em seem like they'd be unwelcome,
too. I'd hafta think twice before I
offered up, "God doesn't play dice with
the universe" to soothe someone's suffering.
Gayle
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| User: "Luna" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
04 May 2007 10:10:26 AM |
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"Gayle" <gayleco@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:U4-dnVb1uKvEs6bbnZ2dnUVZ_oOknZ2d@rcn.net...
Noon Cat Nick wrote:
http://home.avvanta.com/~charlatn/depression/Best.things.html
(and other sites as well)
Thanks, Nick, although I gotta say: some
of 'em seem like they'd be unwelcome,
too. I'd hafta think twice before I
offered up, "God doesn't play dice with
the universe" to soothe someone's suffering.
Does that mean that people over in Darfur and various other places somehow
are part of some big plan on Mr. G's part? Or suffering some karmic
retribution? Never did get that.
Jean
Gayle
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| User: "Gayle" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
04 May 2007 11:36:38 AM |
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Luna wrote:
Thanks, Nick, although I gotta say: some
of 'em seem like they'd be unwelcome,
too. I'd hafta think twice before I
offered up, "God doesn't play dice with
the universe" to soothe someone's suffering.
Does that mean that people over in Darfur and various other places somehow
are part of some big plan on Mr. G's part? Or suffering some karmic
retribution? Never did get that.
It sounds like "bloom where yer planted"
or "just suck it up" to me.
Gayle
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| User: "Noon Cat Nick" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
04 May 2007 10:52:44 AM |
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Gayle wrote:
Noon Cat Nick wrote:
http://home.avvanta.com/~charlatn/depression/Best.things.html
(and other sites as well)
Thanks, Nick, although I gotta say: some of 'em seem like they'd be
unwelcome, too. I'd hafta think twice before I offered up, "God
doesn't play dice with the universe" to soothe someone's suffering.
Gayle
You can change it to Dr. Stephen Hawking's observation in _A Brief
History of Time_: "Not only does God definitely play dice, but He
sometimes confuses us by throwing them where they can't be seen."
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
03 May 2007 10:19:26 PM |
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On May 3, 7:21 pm, Gayle <gayl...@rcn.com> wrote:
Noon Cat Nick wrote:
Yeah, I have those "Worst" and "Best Things to Say" lists archived
somewhere, thankfully. They still come in uncommonly handy from time to
time.
I've never seen the "best things to say"
list. If you come across it again, I'd
love to read some. I'm tryin' to imagine
even one. Hmmm.
I'd be very interested in this list as well. I might find it helpful
when talking
with others as well as self-affirmations?
Other than "go ahead and just talk until yer all talked out
and I won't say a word".
That's the best, and I hope I can do that for others too.
Rose
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
03 May 2007 10:16:05 PM |
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On May 3, 5:53 pm, Gayle <gayl...@rcn.com> wrote:
Here's a bunch more from a list compiled
in asd in '95:
http://home.blarg.net/~charlatn/depression/worst.things.html
Some examples:
12. "There are a lot of people worse off
than you?"
13. "You have it so good, why aren't you
happy?"
14. "It's a beautiful day!"
15. "You have so many things to be
thankful for, why are you depressed!"
16. "What do you have to be depressed
about".
17. "Happiness is a choice"
Gayle
Gawd, I have heard ALL of these and more. I'm afraid to check out the
website...I don't feel like making my depression worse tonight by
reading all that I SHOULD be feeeling/thinking/doing.
Rose
.
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| User: "%" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
03 May 2007 10:18:16 PM |
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<smudgedrose@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1178248565.724689.238370@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On May 3, 5:53 pm, Gayle <gayl...@rcn.com> wrote:
Here's a bunch more from a list compiled
in asd in '95:
http://home.blarg.net/~charlatn/depression/worst.things.html
Some examples:
12. "There are a lot of people worse off
than you?"
13. "You have it so good, why aren't you
happy?"
14. "It's a beautiful day!"
15. "You have so many things to be
thankful for, why are you depressed!"
16. "What do you have to be depressed
about".
17. "Happiness is a choice"
Gayle
Gawd, I have heard ALL of these and more. I'm afraid to check out the
website...I don't feel like making my depression worse tonight by
reading all that I SHOULD be feeeling/thinking/doing.
Rose
yea , no sense reading what makes you feel better
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
03 May 2007 10:23:32 PM |
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On May 3, 8:18 pm, "%" <pers...@gmail.com> wrote:
<smudgedr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1178248565.724689.238370@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On May 3, 5:53 pm, Gayle <gayl...@rcn.com> wrote:
Here's a bunch more from a list compiled
in asd in '95:
http://home.blarg.net/~charlatn/depression/worst.things.html
Some examples:
12. "There are a lot of people worse off
than you?"
13. "You have it so good, why aren't you
happy?"
14. "It's a beautiful day!"
15. "You have so many things to be
thankful for, why are you depressed!"
16. "What do you have to be depressed
about".
17. "Happiness is a choice"
Gayle
Gawd, I have heard ALL of these and more. I'm afraid to check out the
website...I don't feel like making my depression worse tonight by
reading all that I SHOULD be feeeling/thinking/doing.
Rose
yea , no sense reading what makes you feel better- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I'm glad those things make you feel better.
Rose
.
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| User: "%" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
03 May 2007 10:26:34 PM |
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<smudgedrose@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1178249012.701043.243180@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On May 3, 8:18 pm, "%" <pers...@gmail.com> wrote:
<smudgedr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1178248565.724689.238370@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On May 3, 5:53 pm, Gayle <gayl...@rcn.com> wrote:
Here's a bunch more from a list compiled
in asd in '95:
http://home.blarg.net/~charlatn/depression/worst.things.html
Some examples:
12. "There are a lot of people worse off
than you?"
13. "You have it so good, why aren't you
happy?"
14. "It's a beautiful day!"
15. "You have so many things to be
thankful for, why are you depressed!"
16. "What do you have to be depressed
about".
17. "Happiness is a choice"
Gayle
Gawd, I have heard ALL of these and more. I'm afraid to check out
the
website...I don't feel like making my depression worse tonight by
reading all that I SHOULD be feeeling/thinking/doing.
Rose
yea , no sense reading what makes you feel better- Hide quoted
text -
- Show quoted text -
I'm glad those things make you feel better.
Rose
i don't know if they do or not i never read them ,
that's why i'm not talking about what they say
.
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| User: "Gayle" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
04 May 2007 08:13:02 AM |
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wrote:
Gawd, I have heard ALL of these and more. I'm afraid to check out the
website...I don't feel like making my depression worse tonight by
reading all that I SHOULD be feeeling/thinking/doing.
The hardest lesson for me is that the
less I say and the more I listen with as
little judgment or advice as I can
muster, the more it seems to soothe.
And, hey, offering to make a cup of
chamomile tea, as lame a gesture is it
might be under some circumstances,
sometimes speaks volumes in others. But
it's hard to know how to offer support
without a few cues from the, um,
"supportee". If I feel too clueless, my
patience starts to run thin and I know
it's time to back off. Sadly.
Gayle
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| User: "RGB" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
04 May 2007 11:49:37 AM |
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In article <Btednb7Ea64zrKbbnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@rcn.net>,
Gayle <gayleco@rcn.com> wrote:
The hardest lesson for me is that the less I say and the more I
listen with as little judgment or advice as I can muster, the more it
seems to soothe. And, hey, offering to make a cup of chamomile tea,
as lame a gesture is it might be under some circumstances, sometimes
speaks volumes in others. But it's hard to know how to offer support
without a few cues from the, um, "supportee". If I feel too clueless,
my patience starts to run thin and I know it's time to back off.
Sadly.
I've been following all this and having a number of reactions which I'd
like to share with the class.
A) I was surprised and glad to see that there was a serious "good
things" list; something that often annoys me is the attitude that
"normies" can never be anything but insensitive morons when it comes to
depressoids.
B) The "good things" list ranged from the sublime ("I can't really
fully understand what you are feeling, but I can offer my compassion")
to the ridiculous (the "dice" thing you cited, along with a number of
others).
C) OK, this one shouldn't be lettered, since it's really the main post.
What do I find helpful and unhelpful?
I'm a very hard person to help when I'm really down. I become very
withdrawn and unresponsive. And the worst thing someone can do to try to
help at such times is bombard me with questions about what they might be
able to do to help. Because they can't, they just can't, and the last
thing I need what I'm drowning at the bottom of the tank of sludge is
the added burden of feeling that I'm failing and frustrating them by
thwarting their attempts to pull me out of it. I start out appreciating
what they're trying to do, but if they just keep going and going I
eventually become angry and snap at them to stop. And now both of us
feel a whole lot shittier than we did to begin with.
So, talking, usually not. And probably not a verbal offer of
huggie-wuggies, either, especially if I have to worry that the wuggie
will be followed by the question, "Did that help?"
I'm more likely to be helped by a concrete suggestion or offer or even
pressure to *do* something that I will probably resist doing but that
may well help once I'm actually doing it. Like, Idno, going for a walk
or some other activity, a movie or something. Following through with a
social commitment even when it's the last thing I want to do --
sometimes forcing oneself to fake it really *does* help.
So, not that anyone give a *****, but those are my thoughts on this
dreary Friday morning which, fortunately, I have off, since I am hating
my job at this particular point in time more than I have in years. But
at least they're paying for us to go see "Spiderman 3" tonight -- though
the fuckers aren't complying with tradition and arranging for us to be
able to skip out during working hours for the outing.
Ramble ramble.
Mark
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| User: "Gayle" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
04 May 2007 03:07:41 PM |
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RGB wrote:
I'm a very hard person to help when I'm really down. I become very
withdrawn and unresponsive. And the worst thing someone can do to try to
help at such times is bombard me with questions about what they might be
able to do to help. Because they can't, they just can't, and the last
thing I need what I'm drowning at the bottom of the tank of sludge is
the added burden of feeling that I'm failing and frustrating them by
thwarting their attempts to pull me out of it. I start out appreciating
what they're trying to do, but if they just keep going and going I
eventually become angry and snap at them to stop. And now both of us
feel a whole lot shittier than we did to begin with.
I have a friend with whom I've danced
this dance (with me in the
cheerleader-from-hell uniform) and we've
got a system. When he withdraws, I don't
follow as long as he leaves me messages
saying, "Thank you for leaving me alone
.... it's helping."
I'm more likely to be helped by a concrete suggestion or offer or even
pressure to *do* something that I will probably resist doing but that
may well help once I'm actually doing it. Like, Idno, going for a walk
or some other activity, a movie or something. Following through with a
social commitment even when it's the last thing I want to do --
sometimes forcing oneself to fake it really *does* help.
Hmmm. Isn't this just an attempt to pull
you out of it, too? I feel like I've
rarely helped anyone with the "let's go
for a walk" chirp. Except for myself.
So, not that anyone give a *****, but those are my thoughts on this
dreary Friday morning which, fortunately, I have off, since I am hating
my job at this particular point in time more than I have in years. But
at least they're paying for us to go see "Spiderman 3" tonight -- though
the fuckers aren't complying with tradition and arranging for us to be
able to skip out during working hours for the outing.
Hey, I give a *****. And, I'm curious,
too. What's buggin' ya about yer job?
Gayle
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| User: "RGB" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
05 May 2007 08:48:23 PM |
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In article <bcqdnfAirJNDD6bbnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@rcn.net>,
Gayle <gayleco@rcn.com> wrote:
I'm more likely to be helped by a concrete suggestion or offer or
even pressure to *do* something that I will probably resist doing
but that may well help once I'm actually doing it. Like, Idno,
going for a walk or some other activity, a movie or something.
Following through with a social commitment even when it's the last
thing I want to do -- sometimes forcing oneself to fake it really
*does* help.
Hmmm. Isn't this just an attempt to pull you out of it, too? I feel
like I've rarely helped anyone with the "let's go for a walk" chirp.
Except for myself.
Of course it's an attempt to pull me out of it, just not by
interrogation. That's my problem here, people who think they can help
by expressing their compassion by asking an endless series of questions
in spite of the fact that those questions are getting virtually no
response from me. All THAT accomplishes is raising my level of anxiety
until I want to scream at them to just shut the ***** up.
And hey. I realize you're ostensibly pointing at yourself when you say
"chirp" up there, but I think there's a more general implication to the
fact that you use that term, and I don't think it's fair to people who
make such suggestions. "Chirp" suggests shallowness, thoughtlessness,
fluffy worthless "help" along the lines of saying "Don't worry, be
happy!" -- but I think it can be a lot more than that. I think someone
saying, "Come on, just walk with me down to the video store, it's only
a 15 minute walk and it's beautiful out and you haven't been out of the
house in two days" might well be making a very sensible and valuable
suggestion. I know, I know, Conventional ASD Wisdom sneers and shakes
its head at the incredible ignorance of a naive "normie" suggestion
like that, but that kind of thing has often helped me a lot, and I'll
be a lot of others, too.
Hey, I give a *****. And, I'm curious, too. What's buggin' ya about
yer job?
Oh, Christ. Just that I was drafted into giving this very high profile
presentation in front of some very big customers at a user forum for my
company's services and I sucked totally and got feedback that the
customers felt likewise and I came away feeling totally humiliated and
more depressed than I've been for around 2 years (fortunately it was
passing). Why did I suck? Partly because I'm depressed and just not
that good at doing public presentations, but mostly because the
assholes who set me up for this told me weeks ago that they'd provide
me with the materials I needed, then stalled and stalled and didn't
give me anything until the day before, and then it was a totally
worthless PowerPoint slideshow. So I wound up addressing the likes of
Apple, Sun, Intel, etc., with crappy material and a crappy mood,
nervous as hell and doing my presentation in contrast with other
presenters who were like VPs of Marketing, slick sales types who
excrete this type of thing like ***** through a goose. It was awful.
Thank God I had a couple of vaca days scheduled after it.
I took a walk today. It helped.
Mark
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| User: "Gayle" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
06 May 2007 09:46:16 AM |
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RGB wrote:
I'm more likely to be helped by a concrete suggestion or offer or
even pressure to *do* something that I will probably resist doing
but that may well help once I'm actually doing it. Like, Idno,
going for a walk or some other activity, a movie or something.
Following through with a social commitment even when it's the last
thing I want to do -- sometimes forcing oneself to fake it really
*does* help.
Hmmm. Isn't this just an attempt to pull you out of it, too? I feel
like I've rarely helped anyone with the "let's go for a walk" chirp.
Except for myself.
Of course it's an attempt to pull me out of it, just not by
interrogation. That's my problem here, people who think they can help
by expressing their compassion by asking an endless series of questions
in spite of the fact that those questions are getting virtually no
response from me. All THAT accomplishes is raising my level of anxiety
until I want to scream at them to just shut the ***** up.
And hey. I realize you're ostensibly pointing at yourself when you say
"chirp" up there, but I think there's a more general implication to the
fact that you use that term, and I don't think it's fair to people who
make such suggestions. "Chirp" suggests shallowness, thoughtlessness,
fluffy worthless "help" along the lines of saying "Don't worry, be
happy!" -- but I think it can be a lot more than that. I think someone
saying, "Come on, just walk with me down to the video store, it's only
a 15 minute walk and it's beautiful out and you haven't been out of the
house in two days" might well be making a very sensible and valuable
suggestion. I know, I know, Conventional ASD Wisdom sneers and shakes
its head at the incredible ignorance of a naive "normie" suggestion
like that, but that kind of thing has often helped me a lot, and I'll
be a lot of others, too.
I do appreciate your attention to
specific words, Mark. In a text medium,
what else is there? "Chirp" is what I
think birds do to signal, "just know
that I'm here." When I'm in chirp mode,
I'm signaling "no interrogations trying
to go deep to the heart of the pain,
let's just breeze along for a bit."
Maybe walk down to the video store.
It does help sometimes, you're right,
yet it still feels true that I've rarely
helped anyone who perceives any
suggestion as incredibly ignorantly
naive and sneers, "and that's supposed
to help me exactly how?". To debate it
seems most unhelpful.
Hey, I give a *****. And, I'm curious, too. What's buggin' ya about
yer job?
Oh, Christ. Just that I was drafted into giving this very high profile
presentation in front of some very big customers at a user forum for my
company's services and I sucked totally and got feedback that the
customers felt likewise and I came away feeling totally humiliated and
more depressed than I've been for around 2 years (fortunately it was
passing). Why did I suck? Partly because I'm depressed and just not
that good at doing public presentations, but mostly because the
assholes who set me up for this told me weeks ago that they'd provide
me with the materials I needed, then stalled and stalled and didn't
give me anything until the day before, and then it was a totally
worthless PowerPoint slideshow. So I wound up addressing the likes of
Apple, Sun, Intel, etc., with crappy material and a crappy mood,
nervous as hell and doing my presentation in contrast with other
presenters who were like VPs of Marketing, slick sales types who
excrete this type of thing like ***** through a goose. It was awful.
Thank God I had a couple of vaca days scheduled after it.
Oh, jeebus. I feel absolutely sickened
on yer behalf. And incited to put a
beatin' on the treacherous, incompetent
assholes who set you up. But -- and I
know you know this and paid a heavy
price; I don't intend to add insult to
injury by saying: the day you agreed to
present was the day you owned your
presentation and the responsibility to
hold them accountable for their promise
to prepare you.
The good news is that maybe it'll be a
while before you're asked to present
again. heh. Maybe the better news is
that you might transform the bad
experience into a desire to wrestle the
dragon. There is a great need for folks
like you who actually know what the hell
they're talking about as opposed to
marketingese-excrement. When some of
these technical experts ratchet up their
presentation skills to meet the need,
they often discover career-enhancing
opportunities that get them closer to
creating the worklife that suits each of
them.
If you're tagged again, I'd love to
contribute my support. For one thing, it
sez on my website (under 'services' at
http://www.gayleco.com): "Connect me
with someone who will provide
information about your business, your
goals, and any details about the venue
for your presentation."
I'd have hunted those bastids down and
dragged the prep outta them in time for
ya. Seriously, next time?
I took a walk today. It helped.
Good to hear. Speaking of walks, any
more thoughts about volunteering for Out
of the Night in NYC?
Gayle
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| User: "RGB" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
06 May 2007 03:29:47 PM |
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In article <W4-dnQfnavYXd6DbnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@rcn.net>,
Gayle <gayleco@rcn.com> wrote:
It does help sometimes, you're right, yet it still feels true that
I've rarely helped anyone who perceives any suggestion as incredibly
ignorantly naive and sneers, "and that's supposed to help me exactly
how?". To debate it seems most unhelpful.
Oh, debate is likely to be totally unhelpful. Depressoids (and I *am*
thinking of myself here, be it noted) can muster an amazing amount of
passion for explaining how nothing can POSSIBLY help. So phase II of
the "let's go for a walk" debate is probably best couched in "come on,
here's your jacket" terms; one "advantage" of the depressoids's state,
from the Helper's perspective, is that they might be too depressed to
put up that much of a fight. =8^)
Hey, I give a *****. And, I'm curious, too. What's buggin' ya about
yer job?
[... snip tale of tragic corporate presentation ...]
Oh, jeebus. I feel absolutely sickened on yer behalf. And incited to
put a beatin' on the treacherous, incompetent assholes who set you
up. But -- and I know you know this and paid a heavy price; I don't
intend to add insult to injury by saying: the day you agreed to
present was the day you owned your presentation and the
responsibility to hold them accountable for their promise to prepare
you.
Oh, I know. But my manager and I both kept banging on our counterparts
on the East Coast, who in turn assured us that they had been assured
that a PowerPoint was all that was needed and it's coming, it's coming,
any minute now, so... *****. If I'd just been given sufficient notice of
this thing and told "put something together", I could have done a MUCH
better job of it, but I was essentially directed to wait for people who
held out on me until the last minute. The whole thing was fucked up.
I did get one thing out of it, though, sort of a religious experience.
A wise woman named Menahuny once posted here something like "la la la
la la powerpoint sucks the big fatty" and truer words were never
written. PowerPoint really does suck. People have come to regard it as
an article of faith that every presentation MUST have a fucking
PowerPoint slide show as its centerpiece, but my experience is that --
unless there are directly useful diagrams or other images -- PowerPoint
slide shows consisting of just words are almost without exception
utterly worthless. If the speaker is good, the slides serve only to
distract, and if the speaker is bad, the slides aren't going to help.
Most of the time, those fucking slides really function as speakers'
notes to themselves, and that's what they should be, notes printed on
sheets of paper sitting on the podium in front of them, guiding them
through their presenting, not visually blaring into the eyes of
everyone in the audience for no fucking good reason what-so-EVER.
So, again... LA LA LA LA LA POWERPOINT SUCKS THE BIG FATTY.
The good news is that maybe it'll be a while before you're asked to
present again.
Hah. No doubt.
When some of these technical experts ratchet up their presentation
skills to meet the need, they often discover career-enhancing
opportunities that get them closer to creating the worklife that
suits each of them.
Perhaps. I'm a creative kind of guy, and my current job is anything but
creative, and I've often wished I could put more of who I really am
into what I get paid for. It's hard to imagine how, given the subject,
but then, one can be creative about anything, really.
And OK, this isn't exactly what you had in mind, but I'm currently on a
mission to make everyone aware of the pointlessness of using certain
standard buzzwords. My #1 target at the moment: "leverage". I fucking
HATE that word the inanely promiscuous way it's used these days, it's
effectively become a synonym for "use". My boss said to one of the
other presenters in my office, "Hey, so-and-so did a presentation on a
similar subject, maybe you can leverage his PowerPoint slideshow." What
the *****? How do you "leverage" a slideshow? (He meant use some of the
slides.) It was once suggested to me that I could "leverage" a class I
went to. How? By using the things I'd learned. Gag.
*** "Words, through loose usage, are losing their meaning." ***
(By the way -- filling this in later -- OK, I just checked, and you do
use the word on your website, but in a completely sensible and
appropriate way, so, no offense!)
Then there are things like "reach out" (you never "call" or "contact"
anyone any more, you always "reach out" to them, or, if it's a repeat
performance, "circle back"), but I could go on for quite a while like
this; there's a lot of "low hanging fruit" in this area. =8^)
If you're tagged again, I'd love to contribute my support. For one
thing, it sez on my website (under 'services' at
http://www.gayleco.com): "Connect me with someone who will provide
information about your business, your goals, and any details about
the venue for your presentation."
Thanks, that's very, very kind of you and wow... I never knew you did
this sort of thing professionally! That looks like a very cool
enterprise you've got going there. I had no idea when I wrote my long
whiny-whiny about the forum thing, it's an interesting coincidence.
So what's with the "yer" thing all the time???
Looking over your site, I see you follow the traditional "don't put a
comma before the 'and' at the end of a list" rule ("a, b and c"). I'm
aware of the rule, of course, and consciously disregard it, as it seems
illogical to me and groups the final two elements together in a
potentially misleading way, the kind of thing that might make trouble
in a will. I do the same with punctuation inside quotes, I think
there's even a name for this style of writing. Anyway
Speaking of walks, any more thoughts about volunteering for Out of
the Night in NYC?
Yeah, the thought is, "probably not". Though Idno, I'll keep thinking
about it until the last minute, and I'm sure there will be room to help
even at the least minute, so I'll see. I've got a little over a month
to make up my mind, but at the moment I don't think I'm going to do it,
the logistics and stress of the whole thing would just be too much. It
would be different if I had a place to stay and could go a day or two
in advance and stay for a while after.
Anyway, thanks again fer yer writin werds and offerins of help.
Mark
P.S. --- Sorry for my nasty slanderout words about marketing slimedroids
or however I put it!!! =8^)
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| User: "Gayle" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
07 May 2007 08:02:05 AM |
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RGB wrote:
And OK, this isn't exactly what you had in mind, but I'm currently on a
mission to make everyone aware of the pointlessness of using certain
standard buzzwords. My #1 target at the moment: "leverage". I fucking
HATE that word the inanely promiscuous way it's used these days, it's
effectively become a synonym for "use". My boss said to one of the
other presenters in my office, "Hey, so-and-so did a presentation on a
similar subject, maybe you can leverage his PowerPoint slideshow." What
the *****? How do you "leverage" a slideshow? (He meant use some of the
slides.) It was once suggested to me that I could "leverage" a class I
went to. How? By using the things I'd learned. Gag.
Then there are things like "reach out" (you never "call" or "contact"
anyone any more, you always "reach out" to them, or, if it's a repeat
performance, "circle back"), but I could go on for quite a while like
this; there's a lot of "low hanging fruit" in this area. =8^)
Um, I'm "efforting" attention towards
this -- but fear it's a lost cause.
Besides, I've heard that Shakespeare was
a wordbender, too, so it's a noble
tradition. Of a sort.
So what's with the "yer" thing all the time???
Playfulness, mostly, and also an attempt
to communicate my conversational dialect.
Looking over your site, I see you follow the traditional "don't put a
comma before the 'and' at the end of a list" rule ("a, b and c"). I'm
aware of the rule, of course, and consciously disregard it, as it seems
illogical to me and groups the final two elements together in a
potentially misleading way, the kind of thing that might make trouble
in a will. I do the same with punctuation inside quotes, I think
there's even a name for this style of writing. Anyway
It gets more confusing when the 3rd
sandwich in the picnic is peanut butter
and jelly. Have you read "Eats, Shoots,
and Leaves"? The rulz are kinda fluid,
imo. That's why there are 'style'
manuals for different orgs. I'm too
inconsistent and more interested in
spoken word than print -- so I count on
collaborating with an editor/proofreader
to make the call.
P.S. --- Sorry for my nasty slanderout words about marketing slimedroids
or however I put it!!! =8^)
You didn't say anything the practice
hasn't earned. I like to think I'm more
focused on the steak rather than the
sizzle; the bread rather than the circus...
Gayle
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| User: "RGB" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
07 May 2007 12:52:08 PM |
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In article <MaidnRl8qKg9vqLbnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@rcn.net>,
Gayle <gayleco@rcn.com> wrote:
Um, I'm "efforting" attention towards this -- but fear it's a lost cause.
Oh, I forgot about my #2 pisses-me-off: use of "ask" as a noun, as in:
"Here's the customer's ask: he wants a rubber glove next time."
Besides, I've heard that Shakespeare was a wordbender, too, so it's a
noble tradition. Of a sort.
Absolutely. Language being a living thing and all that. But what frosts
my shorts is the trendiness and pointlessness of some of the buzzies.
Like "reach out". I hear or read it countless times a day, and I
positively yearn for the days when people would just say things like,
"Can you give him a call?" And the utterly inane role "leverage" has
come to play. It's like: this is not language evolving, or people using
language creatively, this is a bunch of dullards mimicking one another,
using "bizspeak" instead of regular English because they think it makes
them sound more professional.
Anyway, my ask for you is that you leverage today's low hanging fruit
to turn it into a great win for yerself! =8^)
Mark
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
03 May 2007 10:13:57 PM |
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On May 3, 4:50 pm, Noon Cat Nick <chatdemidiSPAMBEG...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
It's hard though. I remember once during a suicidal depression being
told to "go outside for a walk". The pointlessness of that advice
felt idiotic to me in spite of the fact that it probably felt pretty
sensible to the person giving it. Get out, move, breathe in the fresh
air.
Yep, been there, as if that's going to make everything alllll better.
And take a bubble bath, wear bright clothing, smile a lot, go to church,
drink camomile tea, watch a comedy, listen to some Mozart, and pray pray
pray. There, don't you feel better already? No? Well, then, you just
WANT to be depressed, you lazy selfish jerk.
This is all too familiar, with some variations. *sighs* Yes, too
familiar....I must not WANT to get better if I don't feel better after
doing all that. Either that or I'm not giving it enough effort, not
having a positive enough attitude, I haven't given it enough time, etc
etc etc.
Boy, you try to help somebody and they ***** all over you.
(Hey, don't think I making all of that up, either.)
I'm not on the 'other side of the fence' to understand how someone can
feel this way. If someone has heart disease, for example, and is
doing what they can to help themselves (they have researched their
illness to get a good idea of what they can do personally, have sought
treatment, are following the doctor's advice, etc), would they blame
the person that either didn't recover or even got worse? Would they
get fed up with them because of a physical ailment? Just some of the
things I think about....
Rose
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| User: "the_dawggie" |
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| Title: Re: The latest news on depression (from _The Onion_) |
03 May 2007 09:48:44 PM |
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On May 4, 9:50 am, Noon Cat Nick <chatdemidiSPAMBEG...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Bush is a carrier. He infects others with depression.
Agree entirely. I might remember that statement
Maybe because said depression sufferers had to do the very hard work to
get where they are. Numerous non-sufferers don't do the very hard work,
since (they think) there's nothing wrong with them, so it must be
somebody else's fault when things don't go so well.
Totally true. Not sure also if it's a point of got this far and that
is the best I can do with it, something goes a little out of wack
and facing court and jail - Rene Rivkin comes to mind (bipoloar)
I've always found that I have to maintain stringent practices, in some
instances almost bordering on OCD, to maintain orderliness in my life.
(Maybe that's part of why I'm fond of the liturgical traditions. No
variation there; a very strict structure to all their services.) When my
sense of order starts to crumble, that's when I know I getting depressed
or hypomanic.
Yup, it's a bit like that.
And take a bubble bath, wear bright clothing, smile a lot, go to church,
drink camomile tea, watch a comedy, listen to some Mozart, and pray pray
pray. There, don't you feel better already? No? Well, then, you just
WANT to be depressed, you lazy selfish jerk. Boy, you try to help
somebody and they ***** all over you. (Hey, don't think I making all of
that up, either.)
LOL!
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