| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"CyberDroog" |
| Date: |
05 Feb 2005 02:02:04 AM |
| Object: |
Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
Wisconsin had a senate conference on the issue of a law requiring a valid
state ID being required to vote. Democrats have been wringing their hands
coming up with likely excuses as to why it's a bad idea.
A disabled woman spoke and said she felt it was an undue burden for the
disabled because they would have a hard time scrounging a ride to go and
get an ID.
Huh?!!! The idiot got to the conference somehow, didn't she? This is
really a joke. Asking people to verify that they are in fact legal voters
is now defined as disenfranchisement.
Why can't they just be honest and say "Look, we kind of like being able to
cheat!" Milwaukee had tens of thousands of invalid registrations for the
last election. It looks like some people are determined to keep it that
way.
--
LEARNING, n. The kind of ignorance distinguishing the studious.
- Ambrose Bierce
.
|
|
| User: "solidac" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
05 Feb 2005 07:25:36 AM |
|
|
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
news:3uu8011d845f43pknbp3aq1l96d9v6epsr@4ax.com...
Wisconsin had a senate conference on the issue of a law requiring a valid
state ID being required to vote. Democrats have been wringing their hands
coming up with likely excuses as to why it's a bad idea.
A disabled woman spoke and said she felt it was an undue burden for the
disabled because they would have a hard time scrounging a ride to go and
get an ID.
Huh?!!! The idiot got to the conference somehow, didn't she? This is
really a joke. Asking people to verify that they are in fact legal voters
is now defined as disenfranchisement.
Why can't they just be honest and say "Look, we kind of like being able to
cheat!" Milwaukee had tens of thousands of invalid registrations for the
last election. It looks like some people are determined to keep it that
way.
--
LEARNING, n. The kind of ignorance distinguishing the studious.
- Ambrose Bierce
sounds like - just a barrow to push, but that might be a tad unkind. Some
ppl need to have a cause and will resist change whatever that is - maybe
partly because of fear of change. Others will fight injustice (as they
perceive it) wherever it surfaces because they feel that is their duty and
vocation in life. Still others seem to seek out injustice and fight it
because they feel that is the honourable thing to do. And then, there are
those who fight for their rights (and on behalf of others in the same jam)
because their quality of life depend on it. Who can say which campaign fits
into which basket? The distinction is blurred so often in any case. And does
it matter.. If only Batman were here
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Contrarian" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
05 Feb 2005 05:52:08 PM |
|
|
CyberDroog <CyberDroog@clockworkorange.com> wrote:
Wisconsin had a senate conference on the issue of a law requiring a valid
state ID being required to vote. Democrats have been wringing their hands
coming up with likely excuses as to why it's a bad idea.
We discussed this earlier. Perhaps it was you (CD) who raised
this issue. It's long past time for something like this.
A disabled woman spoke and said she felt it was an undue burden for the
disabled because they would have a hard time scrounging a ride to go and
get an ID.
Huh?!!! The idiot got to the conference somehow, didn't she? This is
really a joke. Asking people to verify that they are in fact legal voters
is now defined as disenfranchisement.
It might pose difficulties for some ppl but "last minute" registrations
and polling rushes are classic failure-points (by which I mean they
allow fraud)
Why can't they just be honest and say "Look, we kind of like being able to
cheat!" Milwaukee had tens of thousands of invalid registrations for the
last election. It looks like some people are determined to keep it that
way.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Whiskers" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
05 Feb 2005 08:04:58 AM |
|
|
X-No-Archive: Yes
On 2005-02-05, CyberDroog <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
Wisconsin had a senate conference on the issue of a law requiring a valid
state ID being required to vote. Democrats have been wringing their hands
coming up with likely excuses as to why it's a bad idea.
A disabled woman spoke and said she felt it was an undue burden for the
disabled because they would have a hard time scrounging a ride to go and
get an ID.
Huh?!!! The idiot got to the conference somehow, didn't she? This is
really a joke. Asking people to verify that they are in fact legal voters
is now defined as disenfranchisement.
Why can't they just be honest and say "Look, we kind of like being able to
cheat!" Milwaukee had tens of thousands of invalid registrations for the
last election. It looks like some people are determined to keep it that
way.
Perhaps the USA ahould imitate the Iraqis; insist on advance registration
only, based on residence, and then make all voters dip their fingers in
indelible dye after voting.
You might find your ideas about mobility change if ever you have the
misfortune to find that yours is impaired.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
.
|
|
|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
06 Feb 2005 12:01:19 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:04:58 +0000, Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com>
wrote:
On 2005-02-05, CyberDroog <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
Wisconsin had a senate conference on the issue of a law requiring a valid
state ID being required to vote. Democrats have been wringing their hands
coming up with likely excuses as to why it's a bad idea.
A disabled woman spoke and said she felt it was an undue burden for the
disabled because they would have a hard time scrounging a ride to go and
get an ID.
Huh?!!! The idiot got to the conference somehow, didn't she? This is
really a joke. Asking people to verify that they are in fact legal voters
is now defined as disenfranchisement.
Why can't they just be honest and say "Look, we kind of like being able to
cheat!" Milwaukee had tens of thousands of invalid registrations for the
last election. It looks like some people are determined to keep it that
way.
Perhaps the USA ahould imitate the Iraqis; insist on advance registration
only, based on residence, and then make all voters dip their fingers in
indelible dye after voting.
I would be in favor of that. Though requiring ID is pretty much
sufficient. Once any particular ID has been used to vote, it can't be used
again.
You might find your ideas about mobility change if ever you have the
misfortune to find that yours is impaired.
I have no problem understanding the limitations some disabled people have
when it comes to mobility. But in this case it's just whining. The
disabled woman who spoke at the conference about how hard it is to get
anywhere *got* to the conference, right? She probably also gets to doctors
appointments. And... if she actually bothers voting at all, she likely
gets out to vote. Though absentee ballots can be used by people who can't
get out, personally I think the restrictions should be tougher on that.
It's one trip to go and get an ID. Many people involved in "Get out the
vote" drives do it for the purpose of helping in just this sort of case.
There are special needs transport companies that actually donate their
services for the disabled when it comes to voting. There is no undue
hardship or insurmountable burden here.
Keeping things the way they are dilutes everyone's votes via fraud.
--
The Hitch Hiker's Guide has not been an opera. It has however been a
tapestry, if you count a woven bath towel as a tapestry.
- Douglas Adams
.
|
|
|
| User: "Whiskers" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
06 Feb 2005 10:54:36 AM |
|
|
On 2005-02-06, CyberDroog <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:04:58 +0000, Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com>
wrote:
snip
Perhaps the USA ahould imitate the Iraqis; insist on advance registration
only, based on residence, and then make all voters dip their fingers in
indelible dye after voting.
I would be in favor of that. Though requiring ID is pretty much
sufficient. Once any particular ID has been used to vote, it can't be used
again.
Here in the UK, voter registration is compulsory (although I've never heard
of anyone being prosecuted for not registering), and can be done by post or
telephone or on-line when the local registrar sends out the forms by post.
Any form not responded to prompts a personal visit from the registrar's
office. The electoral role is re-made frequently, and is open for public
scrutiny. When a vote is due, a voting card is sent to each person on the
register with the address of the place where that person can vote, and
instructions about applying for a postal ballot. Each card carries a
unique serial number which also appears on a list held by the scrutineers
at the polling station, along with the name and address of the voter, and
when a person shows the card or declares their name and address that entry
is marked on the list. That system seems to work very well and has done
for over a century. False declarations to the registrar do come to light
sometimes, and are prosecuted, as is impersonating a voter. It isn't
perfect, of course, but it is reliable. No need for any "ID card", or
passport or driving-licence or social security number or other "papers".
Homeless people can register a hostel or even as 'homeless' in a particular
'ward' (a ward is a division of a constituency).
No-one can register on the day, or at any time other than when the register
is being re-made, but it is possible to transfer your registration to a new
location if you move house in the meantime.
snip
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Bev Thornton" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
06 Feb 2005 08:51:33 PM |
|
|
On 2005-02-06, CyberDroog wrote:
It's one trip to go and get an ID.
Kind of difficult for the disabled people who have to be confined to
chronic care homes or are bedridden.
--
bevthornton@despammed.com Support: <http://www.whalewatch.org/>
Tolerance, patience and understanding are the highest virtues.
.
|
|
|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
07 Feb 2005 10:33:01 AM |
|
|
On 7 Feb 2005 02:51:33 GMT, Bev Thornton <Reply-To@Not.Invalid> wrote:
On 2005-02-06, CyberDroog wrote:
It's one trip to go and get an ID.
Kind of difficult for the disabled people who have to be confined to
chronic care homes or are bedridden.
Yes, and? Many things are more difficult for the disabled. That's kind of
the definition of disabled, isn't it?
There is still no reason to makes things easier for a very small percentage
of the population at the expense of fraud which waters down the very votes
you are hoping to allow.
--
SELF-EVIDENT, adj. Evident to one's self and to nobody else.
- Ambrose Bierce
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bev Thornton" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
07 Feb 2005 11:14:24 AM |
|
|
On 2005-02-07, CyberDroog wrote:
On 7 Feb 2005 02:51:33 GMT, Bev Thornton <Reply-To@Not.Invalid> wrote:
On 2005-02-06, CyberDroog wrote:
It's one trip to go and get an ID.
Kind of difficult for the disabled people who have to be confined to
chronic care homes or are bedridden.
Yes, and? Many things are more difficult for the disabled. That's kind of
the definition of disabled, isn't it?
Making things more difficult or impossible is discrimination, in this
case discrimination against the disabled that would result in
disenfranchisement.
There is still no reason to makes things easier for a very small percentage
of the population at the expense of fraud which waters down the very votes
you are hoping to allow.
Making things possible for disabled people doesn't interfere with
interdicting voter fraud. All that needs to be done is to write the bill
well, so that it doesn't discriminate against people who can't just hop
in a cab to go to a DMV office or who can't just whip the dressings off
their face for the camera.
The size of the percentage does not matter at all. For one thing, many
of those people who cannot be easily moved or have faces always dressed
are veterans and they got that way the hard way. In the nineteen
eighties I volunteered in a veterans' hospital, there were many men in
immobile or covered states who had been there since the nineteen
forties. They can't just leave the hospital, ever.
Wisconsin DMV requirements for identity: normal people have 24
possibilities, disabled people can have as few as 5; for proof of
residence it's 12 for normal people and can be down all the way to 0 for
some disabled people independent but without family in the state.
Criminal prisoners in Wisconsin are not expected to present themselves
at the DMV for their Zebra system Photo ID cards. The technology to
provide for the disabled people already exists and is in use in
Wisconsin--it just wasn't included in what is a weakly conceived bill.
What happened in Europe in the 1930's isn't going to happen again
without a lot of protest from the disabled. Those times are over,
maybe forever.
This is why disabled people are so active when their enfranchisement is
threatened: http://www.notdeadyet.org/
For some, there is a bit more at stake than taxes.
--
bevthornton@despammed.com Support: <http://www.giftofvision.org/>
Better to conquer yourself than others.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "wombn" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
06 Feb 2005 09:55:04 PM |
|
|
On 7 Feb 2005 02:51:33 GMT, Bev Thornton <Reply-To@Not.Invalid> wrote:
On 2005-02-06, CyberDroog wrote:
It's one trip to go and get an ID.
Kind of difficult for the disabled people who have to be confined to
chronic care homes or are bedridden.
arrangements can be made for them.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bev Thornton" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
06 Feb 2005 10:38:13 PM |
|
|
On 2005-02-07, wombn wrote:
On 7 Feb 2005 02:51:33 GMT, Bev Thornton <Reply-To@Not.Invalid> wrote:
On 2005-02-06, CyberDroog wrote:
It's one trip to go and get an ID.
Kind of difficult for the disabled people who have to be confined to
chronic care homes or are bedridden.
arrangements can be made for them.
That's why people speak up to legislators, to get the arrangements made
in the law. There have to be arrangements for people who cannot be moved
from a care facility or are otherwise bedridden to be able to obtain the
ID, an equivalent or a waiver. They can't just hop a cab to the DMV.
Some can only have their faces unwrapped to have dressings changed,
making a photograph is a big deal and sub-standard ones provided by
medical workers would have to do. All of that has to be provided for in
legislation before it goes into effect or else it is an undue hardship
on the weakest members of society, discimination against the disabled by
lack of recognition of their state within society.
--
bevthornton@despammed.com Support: <http://www.planetark.com/>
As long as evil has yet to ripen, the fool mistakes it for honey.
.
|
|
|
| User: "wombn" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
06 Feb 2005 11:55:49 PM |
|
|
On 7 Feb 2005 04:38:13 GMT, Bev Thornton <Reply-To@Not.Invalid> wrote:
On 2005-02-07, wombn wrote:
On 7 Feb 2005 02:51:33 GMT, Bev Thornton <Reply-To@Not.Invalid> wrote:
On 2005-02-06, CyberDroog wrote:
It's one trip to go and get an ID.
Kind of difficult for the disabled people who have to be confined to
chronic care homes or are bedridden.
arrangements can be made for them.
That's why people speak up to legislators, to get the arrangements made
in the law. There have to be arrangements for people who cannot be moved
from a care facility or are otherwise bedridden to be able to obtain the
ID, an equivalent or a waiver. They can't just hop a cab to the DMV.
Some can only have their faces unwrapped to have dressings changed,
making a photograph is a big deal and sub-standard ones provided by
medical workers would have to do. All of that has to be provided for in
legislation before it goes into effect or else it is an undue hardship
on the weakest members of society, discimination against the disabled by
lack of recognition of their state within society.
but trying to stop the whole thing isn't right either.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bev Thornton" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
07 Feb 2005 01:55:59 AM |
|
|
On 2005-02-07, wombn wrote:
On 7 Feb 2005 04:38:13 GMT, Bev Thornton <Reply-To@Not.Invalid> wrote:
On 2005-02-07, wombn wrote:
On 7 Feb 2005 02:51:33 GMT, Bev Thornton <Reply-To@Not.Invalid> wrote:
On 2005-02-06, CyberDroog wrote:
It's one trip to go and get an ID.
Kind of difficult for the disabled people who have to be confined to
chronic care homes or are bedridden.
arrangements can be made for them.
That's why people speak up to legislators, to get the arrangements made
in the law. There have to be arrangements for people who cannot be moved
from a care facility or are otherwise bedridden to be able to obtain the
ID, an equivalent or a waiver. They can't just hop a cab to the DMV.
Some can only have their faces unwrapped to have dressings changed,
making a photograph is a big deal and sub-standard ones provided by
medical workers would have to do. All of that has to be provided for in
legislation before it goes into effect or else it is an undue hardship
on the weakest members of society, discimination against the disabled by
lack of recognition of their state within society.
but trying to stop the whole thing isn't right either.
If the bill is no good then it needs to be rewritten. Good intention is
no excuse nor even a reason for bad laws. A bill is a document, the
whole thing is an idea, a better bill could better carry the idea
without discriminating against the disabled.
Public hearings are just that, public. No one speaking there as a member
of the public has any power at all to stop the process, the bill or the
idea behind the bill. All they are doing is exercising their free
speech. If the bill has no provision for bedridden or chronic care
people to be able to get ID necessary to vote, then those people
wouldn't even get to exercise their right to vote and only because they
can't make it in to a DMV office. It is no problem to change the bill so
those people can meet the requirements, it's only a matter of words on
paper, but if no one points out their absence, they'll never get there.
--
bevthornton@despammed.com Support: <http://www.antislavery.org/>
The only real failure in life is
to not be true to the best one knows.
.
|
|
|
| User: "wombn" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
07 Feb 2005 03:40:58 AM |
|
|
On 7 Feb 2005 07:55:59 GMT, Bev Thornton <Reply-To@Not.Invalid> wrote:
It is no problem to change the bill so
those people can meet the requirements, it's only a matter of words on
paper, but if no one points out their absence, they'll never get there
change is fine.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If laughter is the best medicine,
then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "harakiri" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
05 Feb 2005 10:30:19 AM |
|
|
she wouldn't opt for mail-in ballot because that would solve the situation
and eliminate her complaining
.
|
|
|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
06 Feb 2005 12:13:10 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 16:30:19 GMT, "harakiri" <m.d.wittenberg@att.net>
wrote:
she wouldn't opt for mail-in ballot because that would solve the situation
and eliminate her complaining
Under the proposed law, absentee ballots would require a photocopy of an
ID. So she'll still complain.
What I'd like to know is if the people who took her to the conference
bothered to stop by the DMV on the way home and get her an ID...
--
Very deep. You should send that into Reader's Digest, they've got a page
for people like you.
- Douglas Adams
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "sortalilyagain" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
05 Feb 2005 02:51:54 PM |
|
|
yup. i mean what she can't get one ride to one place ONE time? .. the
requirement to vote was not a drivers ID but JUST A STATE ID ... all states
give out 'non-driver' ID cards. I had one for years before i learned how
to drive.
some people just like complain.
"harakiri" <m.d.wittenberg@att.net> wrote in message
news:vw6Nd.155564$w62.137333@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
| she wouldn't opt for mail-in ballot because that would solve the situation
| and eliminate her complaining
|
|
|
|
|
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
05 Feb 2005 10:24:18 AM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
Wisconsin had a senate conference on the issue of a law requiring a valid
state ID being required to vote. Democrats have been wringing their hands
coming up with likely excuses as to why it's a bad idea.
A disabled woman spoke and said she felt it was an undue burden for the
disabled because they would have a hard time scrounging a ride to go and
get an ID.
Huh?!!! The idiot got to the conference somehow, didn't she
While I agree with you that voters should have to identify
themselves with a real id (rather than something which can
easily be faked such as a driver's license), I think
you are really missing the woman's valid point.
Various disabled people do need somebody to drive
them to various places. The fact that one politically
active woman was able to find somebody to drive
her to a conference does in no way imply
that other disabled people will also easily find
somebody to drive them (other than a taxi which
they might not be able to afford if they are
on ssdi or similar).
Of course, the real solution then is to provide those
people with some way to vote where they are not forced to
drive to the polling stations. Ah, seems she missed the
invention of the absentee ballot.
Thomas
.
|
|
|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
06 Feb 2005 12:10:55 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 17:24:18 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
Wisconsin had a senate conference on the issue of a law requiring a valid
state ID being required to vote. Democrats have been wringing their hands
coming up with likely excuses as to why it's a bad idea.
A disabled woman spoke and said she felt it was an undue burden for the
disabled because they would have a hard time scrounging a ride to go and
get an ID.
Huh?!!! The idiot got to the conference somehow, didn't she
While I agree with you that voters should have to identify
themselves with a real id (rather than something which can
easily be faked such as a driver's license), I think
you are really missing the woman's valid point.
I'm not sure what you mean by "real ID". Anything can be faked. At least
in the case of driver's licenses you can't fake a check against the system.
You can fake the card, but faking the records in the database would be an
extraordinary effort.
It's unlikely that fake ID's would be much of a problem when it comes to
voting. Good ones that are actually able to fool someone with minimal
training are very expensive.
Various disabled people do need somebody to drive
them to various places. The fact that one politically
active woman was able to find somebody to drive
her to a conference does in no way imply
that other disabled people will also easily find
somebody to drive them (other than a taxi which
they might not be able to afford if they are
on ssdi or similar).
Of course, the real solution then is to provide those
people with some way to vote where they are not forced to
drive to the polling stations. Ah, seems she missed the
invention of the absentee ballot.
Absentee ballots can be used by the disabled, but under the proposed law
they would require a photocopy of an ID.
In the most extreme case, where a disabled person who wanted to vote just
couldn't find a way to do it? It's still worth it. What is the worth of
their vote under the current system, watered down by fraud?
--
A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support
of Paul.
- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
06 Feb 2005 02:58:20 AM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 17:24:18 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
Wisconsin had a senate conference on the issue of a law requiring a valid
state ID being required to vote. Democrats have been wringing their hands
coming up with likely excuses as to why it's a bad idea.
A disabled woman spoke and said she felt it was an undue burden for the
disabled because they would have a hard time scrounging a ride to go and
get an ID.
Huh?!!! The idiot got to the conference somehow, didn't she
While I agree with you that voters should have to identify
themselves with a real id (rather than something which can
easily be faked such as a driver's license), I think
you are really missing the woman's valid point.
I'm not sure what you mean by "real ID".
A national ID card which is unique for each adult
citizen, and valid in all US states, with its only purposes
being for identification, and for automatic registration
of voters.
Anything can be faked. At least
in the case of driver's licenses you can't fake a check against the system.
You can fake the card, but faking the records in the database would be an
extraordinary effort.
I think there is not one such database, but at least about 100.
At least one per US state, some states have several.
And, having a driver's license from, say, Wisconsin,
does in no way prove that you still live in Wisconsin,
and are still eligible to vote in Wisconsin. Wanna
venture a guess how many US citizens have multiple
valid driver's licenses? Wanna venture a guess how
many foreigners living in the US have a valid
US driver's license? (Just think about all those
illegals in California who are allowed to vote)
Thomas
.
|
|
|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
06 Feb 2005 04:56:18 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:58:20 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 17:24:18 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
While I agree with you that voters should have to identify
themselves with a real id (rather than something which can
easily be faked such as a driver's license), I think
you are really missing the woman's valid point.
I'm not sure what you mean by "real ID".
A national ID card which is unique for each adult
citizen, and valid in all US states, with its only purposes
being for identification, and for automatic registration
of voters.
Not much support to national ID's here. Too many people fear some cops
with bad German accents asking "Can ve see your papers?"
Anything can be faked. At least
in the case of driver's licenses you can't fake a check against the system.
You can fake the card, but faking the records in the database would be an
extraordinary effort.
I think there is not one such database, but at least about 100.
At least one per US state, some states have several.
And, having a driver's license from, say, Wisconsin,
does in no way prove that you still live in Wisconsin,
and are still eligible to vote in Wisconsin. Wanna
venture a guess how many US citizens have multiple
valid driver's licenses? Wanna venture a guess how
many foreigners living in the US have a valid
US driver's license? (Just think about all those
illegals in California who are allowed to vote)
The databases are being linked more and more. Currently a cop from any
state can check any other states driver's license and get a pretty reliable
report. But states want their sovereignty. Is there one common Euro ID?
As for addresses, a national ID has the same problem. You are supposed to
have your address updated on your driver's license whenever you move. But
I suspect many people don't - at least not until they need an accurate
address on their license for some reason.
The problem is mainly district to district fraud. I doubt there are many
people who would waste the time going state to state, though I'm know it
happens in borders areas.
Most states are pretty responsible when it comes to the proof needed to get
a driver's license. Birth certificate and SS number. But more needs to be
done.
--
PREHISTORIC, adj. Belonging to an early period and a museum. Antedating
the art and practice of perpetuating falsehood.
- Ambrose Bierce
.
|
|
|
| User: "Rhiannon" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
06 Feb 2005 06:19:02 PM |
|
|
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
news:69tb015gjnkqdv1pat3o7o31le6scpm86r@4ax.com...
On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:58:20 +0100, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 17:24:18 +0100, "Thomas Dehn"
<thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
While I agree with you that voters should have to identify
themselves with a real id (rather than something which can
easily be faked such as a driver's license), I think
you are really missing the woman's valid point.
I'm not sure what you mean by "real ID".
A national ID card which is unique for each adult
citizen, and valid in all US states, with its only purposes
being for identification, and for automatic registration
of voters.
Not much support to national ID's here. Too many people fear some cops
with bad German accents asking "Can ve see your papers?"
In light of the Patriot Act, it could already be too late.
rhianon@sympatico.ca
.
|
|
|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
07 Feb 2005 10:28:01 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:19:02 -0600, "Rhiannon" <rhianon@sympatico.ca> wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
Not much support to national ID's here. Too many people fear some cops
with bad German accents asking "Can ve see your papers?"
In light of the Patriot Act, it could already be too late.
I don't see why people fear the Patriot Act so much. It's barely used.
The times it has been used have had nothing to do with terrorism, which
gives some people the willies. But the fact is that the constitution still
trumps the act.
--
When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares
that it is his duty.
- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
.
|
|
|
| User: "GlennT" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
08 Feb 2005 05:17:01 AM |
|
|
CyberDroog wrote:
On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:19:02 -0600, "Rhiannon" <rhianon@sympatico.ca> wrote:
"CyberDroog" <CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote in message
Not much support to national ID's here. Too many people fear some cops
with bad German accents asking "Can ve see your papers?"
In light of the Patriot Act, it could already be too late.
I don't see why people fear the Patriot Act so much. It's barely used.
The times it has been used have had nothing to do with terrorism, which
gives some people the willies. But the fact is that the constitution still
trumps the act.
If there was ever thin ice to be treaded on, I suspect you are
doing this right now. I have no problem with id's. Mainly because
they are practical. I am a law an order guy but I have always
separated the police from the politicians. I respect the former
and don't he latter. Police have the power to arrest, they also
have the power not to. The problem will always be when this power
is taken away from them.
GlennT
.
|
|
|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
08 Feb 2005 06:15:26 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 00:17:01 +1300, GlennT <askme@noname.com> wrote:
CyberDroog wrote:
I don't see why people fear the Patriot Act so much. It's barely used.
The times it has been used have had nothing to do with terrorism, which
gives some people the willies. But the fact is that the constitution still
trumps the act.
If there was ever thin ice to be treaded on, I suspect you are
doing this right now. I have no problem with id's. Mainly because
they are practical. I am a law an order guy but I have always
separated the police from the politicians. I respect the former
and don't he latter. Police have the power to arrest, they also
have the power not to. The problem will always be when this power
is taken away from them.
The police are ultimately under political control. It can't be avoided. I
don't have that much respect for the police either. Their job has become
too much about revenue collection
--
The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They
have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of
government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their
principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for
something they can't get and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out
of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by
looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage,
and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods.
- H.L. Mencken
.
|
|
|
| User: "GlennT" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
08 Feb 2005 06:25:21 AM |
|
|
CyberDroog wrote:
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 00:17:01 +1300, GlennT <askme@noname.com> wrote:
CyberDroog wrote:
I don't see why people fear the Patriot Act so much. It's barely used.
The times it has been used have had nothing to do with terrorism, which
gives some people the willies. But the fact is that the constitution still
trumps the act.
If there was ever thin ice to be treaded on, I suspect you are
doing this right now. I have no problem with id's. Mainly because
they are practical. I am a law an order guy but I have always
separated the police from the politicians. I respect the former
and don't he latter. Police have the power to arrest, they also
have the power not to. The problem will always be when this power
is taken away from them.
The police are ultimately under political control. It can't be avoided. I
don't have that much respect for the police either. Their job has become
too much about revenue collection
That is the thin end of the wedge and they hate it as much as
anyone. Fortunately even at that level they usually show
restraint. I have great respect for *most* police but I have been
hassled by the odd ***** on occasion.
Without them there would be anarchy on a level none of us could
truly comprehend. They are the buffer between the state and the
citizens. If marshal law is ever enacted where you are you may
see my point of view. I haven't had it happen but I have worked
on a few news items concerning that very subject. It is truly
frightening when the police are replaced with soldiers who are
trained to kill rather than reason.
GlennT
.
|
|
|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
08 Feb 2005 06:59:21 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 01:25:21 +1300, GlennT <askme@noname.com> wrote:
CyberDroog wrote:
The police are ultimately under political control. It can't be avoided. I
don't have that much respect for the police either. Their job has become
too much about revenue collection
That is the thin end of the wedge and they hate it as much as
anyone. Fortunately even at that level they usually show
restraint. I have great respect for *most* police but I have been
hassled by the odd ***** on occasion.
I have met quite a few ***** cops. Not in a professional capacity
thankfully (at least not since I was a teenager.) But it's quite obvious
that the very nature of the job attracts a large number of people who
thrive on power trips.
Without them there would be anarchy on a level none of us could
truly comprehend. They are the buffer between the state and the
citizens. If marshal law is ever enacted where you are you may
see my point of view.
I have an AR-15, so if marshall law is ever enacted by me, my point of view
will be from a high window...
I haven't had it happen but I have worked
on a few news items concerning that very subject. It is truly
frightening when the police are replaced with soldiers who are
trained to kill rather than reason.
Somehow I think there must be some other choice between having cops to
collect revenue and complete anarchy.
--
"'Stupid' means one thing: threatening to the interests of the Democratic
Party. The more Conservative the Republican, the more vicious and
hysterical the attacks on his intelligence will be."
- Ann Coulter
.
|
|
|
| User: "GlennT" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
08 Feb 2005 03:04:21 PM |
|
|
CyberDroog wrote:
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 01:25:21 +1300, GlennT <askme@noname.com> wrote:
CyberDroog wrote:
The police are ultimately under political control. It can't be avoided. I
don't have that much respect for the police either. Their job has become
too much about revenue collection
That is the thin end of the wedge and they hate it as much as
anyone. Fortunately even at that level they usually show
restraint. I have great respect for *most* police but I have been
hassled by the odd ***** on occasion.
I have met quite a few ***** cops. Not in a professional capacity
thankfully (at least not since I was a teenager.) But it's quite obvious
that the very nature of the job attracts a large number of people who
thrive on power trips.
YMMV. I haven't met many. I have met a lot of good ones though.
Maybe I'm lucky in that. NZ police are pretty good with a good rep.
Without them there would be anarchy on a level none of us could
truly comprehend. They are the buffer between the state and the
citizens. If marshal law is ever enacted where you are you may
see my point of view.
I have an AR-15, so if marshall law is ever enacted by me, my point of view
will be from a high window...
It will probably be a short point of view. I don't think snipers
last very long. If it came to fighting in a war I would prefer
the guerilla tactics. Draw them into your terrain and ambush on
your own terms.
I haven't had it happen but I have worked
on a few news items concerning that very subject. It is truly
frightening when the police are replaced with soldiers who are
trained to kill rather than reason.
Somehow I think there must be some other choice between having cops to
collect revenue and complete anarchy.
Well I thought that was what I was saying. The fact that cops are
revenue collectors is undeniable. That is the thin end of the
wedge as I said. It is where cops are being abused by the
politicians rather than used for what they joined the force for
in the first place. Keeping the peace, solving crime and
defenders of the victims and the innocent.
I just don't think it warrants writing them off. There is no
alternative that I can think of. Any alternatives available would
just be worse.
GlennT
.
|
|
|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
09 Feb 2005 12:24:28 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 10:04:21 +1300, GlennT <askme@noname.com> wrote:
CyberDroog wrote:
I have met quite a few ***** cops. Not in a professional capacity
thankfully (at least not since I was a teenager.) But it's quite obvious
that the very nature of the job attracts a large number of people who
thrive on power trips.
YMMV. I haven't met many. I have met a lot of good ones though.
Maybe I'm lucky in that. NZ police are pretty good with a good rep.
I suppose in a small country with relatively low crime rates (though I've
seen some shocking police videos from NZ...) they may have a different
attitude.
Without them there would be anarchy on a level none of us could
truly comprehend. They are the buffer between the state and the
citizens. If marshal law is ever enacted where you are you may
see my point of view.
I have an AR-15, so if marshall law is ever enacted by me, my point of view
will be from a high window...
It will probably be a short point of view. I don't think snipers
last very long. If it came to fighting in a war I would prefer
the guerilla tactics. Draw them into your terrain and ambush on
your own terms.
I can't imagine I'd be shooting at soldiers. I was speaking more of
fending off looters.
Somehow I think there must be some other choice between having cops to
collect revenue and complete anarchy.
Well I thought that was what I was saying. The fact that cops are
revenue collectors is undeniable. That is the thin end of the
wedge as I said. It is where cops are being abused by the
politicians rather than used for what they joined the force for
in the first place. Keeping the peace, solving crime and
defenders of the victims and the innocent.
I just don't think it warrants writing them off. There is no
alternative that I can think of. Any alternatives available would
just be worse.
I don't write them off completely. But they are part of the abuse and
choose to keep it that way.
--
As I grow older, I pay less attention to what men say. I just watch what
they do.
- Andrew Carnegie
.
|
|
|
| User: "GlennT" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
09 Feb 2005 05:16:41 AM |
|
|
CyberDroog wrote:
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 10:04:21 +1300, GlennT <askme@noname.com> wrote:
CyberDroog wrote:
I have met quite a few ***** cops. Not in a professional capacity
thankfully (at least not since I was a teenager.) But it's quite obvious
that the very nature of the job attracts a large number of people who
thrive on power trips.
YMMV. I haven't met many. I have met a lot of good ones though.
Maybe I'm lucky in that. NZ police are pretty good with a good rep.
I suppose in a small country with relatively low crime rates (though I've
seen some shocking police videos from NZ...) they may have a different
attitude.
We have a hopeless society locked into useless colonial values.
Teenage suicide one of the highest in the world. Violent crime is
at epidemic proportions. The highest child abuse rate in the
western world. The police here number just 5,000 looking after 4
million people in social crises. Yeah, I think they do a pretty
good job considering.
Without them there would be anarchy on a level none of us could
truly comprehend. They are the buffer between the state and the
citizens. If marshal law is ever enacted where you are you may
see my point of view.
I have an AR-15, so if marshall law is ever enacted by me, my point of view
will be from a high window...
It will probably be a short point of view. I don't think snipers
last very long. If it came to fighting in a war I would prefer
the guerilla tactics. Draw them into your terrain and ambush on
your own terms.
I can't imagine I'd be shooting at soldiers. I was speaking more of
fending off looters.
Oh. Well then probably a high vantage point is best.
Somehow I think there must be some other choice between having cops to
collect revenue and complete anarchy.
Well I thought that was what I was saying. The fact that cops are
revenue collectors is undeniable. That is the thin end of the
wedge as I said. It is where cops are being abused by the
politicians rather than used for what they joined the force for
in the first place. Keeping the peace, solving crime and
defenders of the victims and the innocent.
I just don't think it warrants writing them off. There is no
alternative that I can think of. Any alternatives available would
just be worse.
I don't write them off completely. But they are part of the abuse and
choose to keep it that way.
I would dispute the choosing part. Choice is obvious from the
outside yet very different from inside. I recently got pulled up
trying to do a quick family holiday thing in another town and
being caught with my pants fully down. Both my car's Warrant of
Fitness and Registration had recently expired. I was doing 75 kph
in a 50 kph area. Dumb dumb and more dumb but I had incredible
time pressures on me and had let things slip.
The cop was great. He just warned me about the expiry and charged
me with going over 60kph which was the lowest fine he could give
me. Maybe my attitude helped but he was damned reasonable. Once
again it is anecdotal and a matter of personal perception but
they have an incredibly tough time of it and could use a break
now and then.
GlennT
.
|
|
|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: Some Wheelchairs Need to be Rolled Off Cliffs.... |
09 Feb 2005 08:56:57 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:16:41 +1300, GlennT <askme@noname.com> wrote:
CyberDroog wrote:
I suppose in a small country with relatively low crime rates (though I've
seen some shocking police videos from NZ...) they may have a different
attitude.
We have a hopeless society locked into useless colonial values.
Teenage suicide one of the highest in the world. Violent crime is
at epidemic proportions. The highest child abuse rate in the
western world. The police here number just 5,000 looking after 4
million people in social crises. Yeah, I think they do a pretty
good job considering.
I didn't realize NZ was in such a sorry state. Sounds like you need Xena
more than the police... ;)
I don't write them off completely. But they are part of the abuse and
choose to keep it that way.
I would dispute the choosing part. Choice is obvious from the
outside yet very different from inside. I recently got pulled up
trying to do a quick family holiday thing in another town and
being caught with my pants fully down. Both my car's Warrant of
Fitness and Registration had recently expired. I was doing 75 kph
in a 50 kph area. Dumb dumb and more dumb but I had incredible
time pressures on me and had let things slip.
The cop was great. He just warned me about the expiry and charged
me with going over 60kph which was the lowest fine he could give
me. Maybe my attitude helped but he was damned reasonable. Once
again it is anecdotal and a matter of personal perception but
they have an incredibly tough time of it and could use a break
now and then.
Most cops in America have quotas. Not officially, but the system is
designed to reward them for the volume of tickets they hand out. That
makes them parties to crime in my book.
--
We cannot but be astonished at the ease with which men resign themselves
to ignorance about what is most important for them to know; and we may be
certain that they are determined to remain invincibly ignorant if they once
come to consider it as axiomatic that there are no absolute principles.
- Fredric Bastiat
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
