What we need is to stop talking about what we should have done. Or
could have done ,,, to change the current situation. All this
political in fighting is ridiculous. We are in it now and we have to
deal with it.
What we need is information. What we need is people on the inside of
Hamas and AlQueda. We need to know who, what, when and where. We
need SPECIFICS! Why can we not infiltrate?, The only way to bring
these people down is from the inside.
I think its important to remember that it is not the Iraqi people who
are fighting the occupation forces in Iraq. The insurgents, the
terriosts are from all over the middle east. Syria. lebanonon. Iran.
Over 100,000 Iraqi's have been killed in the last two years. How ever
noble our motives may have been. ( I for one think all that sword of
Guideon stuff was monumental BS.) This occupation is about having a
foothold in the middle east. It is about the balance of world power. It
is not about freeing the oppressed. Pleeeese. As far as ordinary Iraqi
citizens are concerned. We created the situation that directly lead to
there getting shot and blown up.
The subway bombings were appalling . wretched. Its so different
when it happens in Iraq though. Innocent people are being blown up
there everyday and they are seen as somehow complicit. Thats
outrageous. Are thier life's less important.
Dark times ahead , this is not goint to go away. We need clear
goals too. We are never going to "win the war on terror" There will
always be people who are willing to blow themselves up. We need to be
clear on that. Get real about we can do for all the people everywhere
to save the human race. Make no mistake the stakes are that high or
they soon will be.
jill
.
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| User: "humble.life" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 04:16:24 PM |
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wrote:
What we need is to stop talking about what we should have done. Or
could have done ,,, to change the current situation. All this
political in fighting is ridiculous. We are in it now and we have to
deal with it.
What we need is information. What we need is people on the inside of
Hamas and AlQueda. We need to know who, what, when and where. We
need SPECIFICS! Why can we not infiltrate?, The only way to bring
these people down is from the inside.
I think its important to remember that it is not the Iraqi people who
are fighting the occupation forces in Iraq. The insurgents, the
terriosts are from all over the middle east. Syria. lebanonon. Iran.
Over 100,000 Iraqi's have been killed in the last two years. How ever
noble our motives may have been. ( I for one think all that sword of
Guideon stuff was monumental BS.) This occupation is about having a
foothold in the middle east. It is about the balance of world power. It
is not about freeing the oppressed. Pleeeese. As far as ordinary Iraqi
citizens are concerned. We created the situation that directly lead to
there getting shot and blown up.
The subway bombings were appalling . wretched. Its so different
when it happens in Iraq though. Innocent people are being blown up
there everyday and they are seen as somehow complicit. Thats
outrageous. Are thier life's less important.
Dark times ahead , this is not goint to go away. We need clear
goals too. We are never going to "win the war on terror" There will
always be people who are willing to blow themselves up. We need to be
clear on that. Get real about we can do for all the people everywhere
to save the human race. Make no mistake the stakes are that high or
they soon will be.
jill
We humans have a problem re-interpreting historical tragedy. I.e. we
don't know what errors we are repeating until we make the errors again.
Something is awry with our awareness.
But whilst the rich think the poor do it to themselves, and while the
poor slag off students whilst at the same time, ignore the issue of
becoming a student, image issues, arguments over "the cool" etc, we are
likely to keep the cycle up. And we'll always find some scapegoat worse
than ourselves to push it all off to.
Although ignore me, i'm just a depressive...
.
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| User: "humble.life" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 04:20:36 PM |
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humble.life wrote:
janeohara50@msn.com wrote:
What we need is to stop talking about what we should have done. Or
could have done ,,, to change the current situation. All this
political in fighting is ridiculous. We are in it now and we have to
deal with it.
What we need is information. What we need is people on the inside of
Hamas and AlQueda. We need to know who, what, when and where. We
need SPECIFICS! Why can we not infiltrate?, The only way to bring
these people down is from the inside.
I think its important to remember that it is not the Iraqi people who
are fighting the occupation forces in Iraq. The insurgents, the
terriosts are from all over the middle east. Syria. lebanonon. Iran.
Over 100,000 Iraqi's have been killed in the last two years. How ever
noble our motives may have been. ( I for one think all that sword of
Guideon stuff was monumental BS.) This occupation is about having a
foothold in the middle east. It is about the balance of world power. It
is not about freeing the oppressed. Pleeeese. As far as ordinary Iraqi
citizens are concerned. We created the situation that directly lead to
there getting shot and blown up.
The subway bombings were appalling . wretched. Its so different
when it happens in Iraq though. Innocent people are being blown up
there everyday and they are seen as somehow complicit. Thats
outrageous. Are thier life's less important.
Dark times ahead , this is not goint to go away. We need clear
goals too. We are never going to "win the war on terror" There will
always be people who are willing to blow themselves up. We need to be
clear on that. Get real about we can do for all the people everywhere
to save the human race. Make no mistake the stakes are that high or
they soon will be. jill
We humans have a problem re-interpreting historical tragedy. I.e. we
don't know what errors we are repeating until we make the errors again.
Something is awry with our awareness.
But whilst the rich think the poor do it to themselves, and while the
poor slag off students whilst at the same time, ignore the issue of
becoming a student, image issues, arguments over "the cool" etc, we are
likely to keep the cycle up. And we'll always find some scapegoat worse
than ourselves to push it all off to.
Although ignore me, i'm just a depressive...
that gets lost in the middle a bit... to make it slightly clearer, i'm
not blaming the poor for image issues and the cool. I think their surge
to copy stuff and not find it for themselves is probably of issue, but
not their fault...
.
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 04:09:18 PM |
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It isn't really about world power, it's about living with and accepting
eachother as we are, and being well.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 04:33:01 PM |
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At the levels that this war on terror are really being fought. I am
not talking about the grunts who do the dirty work , I am talking about
the Osama's and Bush's, They are literally fighting over who has the
power. Who gets to say jump and how high. And they are both thinking
they need to strike now while the iron is hot. In some ways they are
very different,Thats a cultural thing. In some ways not so different.
Yes , Ghandi said, there can only be peace when we see that that
which is the same about us is more important then that which is
different. And Churhill stood up in parliment and said the greatest
lesson of history is that man does not learn. Where do those two
truths leave us ordinary folks.
Humans need structure to funtion together in a community.
Someone has to be in charge. Ideally to protect the weakest members of
the group. There will always be dissaggrement over who should be in
charge and how much power they should have.
The problem is now the stakes are much higher. Traditional war is
obsolete. We are nuclear. Its for all the marbles now. We may be
looking at A remake of planet of the apes.
jill
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 04:40:44 PM |
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There is no war, and there aren't any terrorists. You become, what you
are thinking.
janeohar...@msn.com wrote:
At the levels that this war on terror are really being fought. I am
not talking about the grunts who do the dirty work , I am talking about
the Osama's and Bush's, They are literally fighting over who has the
power. Who gets to say jump and how high. And they are both thinking
they need to strike now while the iron is hot. In some ways they are
very different,Thats a cultural thing. In some ways not so different.
Yes , Ghandi said, there can only be peace when we see that that
which is the same about us is more important then that which is
different. And Churhill stood up in parliment and said the greatest
lesson of history is that man does not learn. Where do those two
truths leave us ordinary folks.
Humans need structure to funtion together in a community.
Someone has to be in charge. Ideally to protect the weakest members of
the group. There will always be dissaggrement over who should be in
charge and how much power they should have.
The problem is now the stakes are much higher. Traditional war is
obsolete. We are nuclear. Its for all the marbles now. We may be
looking at A remake of planet of the apes.
jill
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 04:48:18 PM |
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Are you alright. ? maybe you could explain that statement a
little. ?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 05:42:24 PM |
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David wrote:
It isn't really about world power, it's about living with and accepting
eachother as we are, and being well.
I agree with that... I think we need to stop looking at
everything in life as a battle, a war... I get the feeling that many of
the people who are most concerned about the "war on terror" think that
if they can somehow "win" the "war against terrorism",they will live
forever...Obviously,the fact is that no matter what happens,with regard
to terrorism,our lives(in this paticular body) will be over extremly
soon any way...Life is extremly short for all people(life in one
paticular body that is)...do we want to spend every minute of every day
making life about "us against them",or do we want to spend the very
short time we have alive on this planet trying to be more peaceful?
-"alvintchase"
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 06:18:29 PM |
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when people blow people up on the subway , that is an act of war. Of
course everything in life is not a battle.All the same, those people
did not die in some terrible accident. Terrorists are real people with
an agenda. This idea you have that we can reach them on a human level.
That if we could all just recognize that we are the same it would all
be okay is good. Its just not working. People are getting blown up,
pointing the finger at people and saying if you would just stop talking
about this war on terror it would go away, is no help. I can't do
that. I guess I am really upset about this ,,,,,, I didn't realize I
felt so strongly about it , jill
.
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| User: "solidac" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
10 Jul 2005 06:01:11 AM |
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<janeohara50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1120951109.039912.274140@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
when people blow people up on the subway , that is an act of war. Of
course everything in life is not a battle.All the same, those people
did not die in some terrible accident. Terrorists are real people with
an agenda. This idea you have that we can reach them on a human level.
That if we could all just recognize that we are the same it would all
be okay is good. Its just not working. People are getting blown up,
pointing the finger at people and saying if you would just stop talking
about this war on terror it would go away, is no help. I can't do
that. I guess I am really upset about this ,,,,,, I didn't realize I
felt so strongly about it , jill
i agree with you in as much as any talk of the 'human spirit'
kicking in and allowing some sort of resolve to take place
where we all walk off into the sunset holding hands is sooo
fanciful as to be absurd. It's past that now (as if it ever was
the genuine objective of any political agenda) and even can
now be seen as squabbling over the remains of the earth's
resources, like oil - but more to the point, farmable land and
fresh water. The planet is in trouble, both ecologically and
politically. Throw in modern weaponry and yu got, a bad mix
a disclaimer - i am not taking any political stand point here
and certainly am not sympathising with any cause that uses
violence as a means to any end
.
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| User: "solidac" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
11 Jul 2005 03:11:46 AM |
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hmm
since thought about what i posted here
look, i'm not a pessimist - i'm a realist and
even though i have found that embracing
reality works better in the long run than
trying to forget about the current sorry
state of affairs, that is both my choice and
opinion - and i understand, these are not
shared by too many of you in asd
therefore, i will attempt to spoiler any future
discussion along these lines on the chance
that some of you may find it upsetting
*spoiler
having said that, the question needs to be
asked - what are your news sources, if you
don't see the consistent trend ?
oh, never mind ..
--
deal with real
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 06:03:38 PM |
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wrote:
David wrote:
It isn't really about world power, it's about living with and accepting
eachother as we are, and being well.
I agree with that... I think we need to stop looking at
everything in life as a battle, a war... I get the feeling that many of
the people who are most concerned about the "war on terror" think that
if they can somehow "win" the "war against terrorism",they will live
forever...Obviously,the fact is that no matter what happens,with regard
to terrorism,our lives(in this paticular body) will be over extremly
soon any way...Life is extremly short for all people(life in one
paticular body that is)...do we want to spend every minute of every day
making life about "us against them",or do we want to spend the very
short time we have alive on this planet trying to be more peaceful?
http://www.leela.org/library/interview/wegweiser03.html
-"alvintchase"
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 06:05:34 PM |
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wrote:
relayer211@hotmail.com wrote:
David wrote:
It isn't really about world power, it's about living with and accepting
eachother as we are, and being well.
I agree with that... I think we need to stop looking at
everything in life as a battle, a war... I get the feeling that many of
the people who are most concerned about the "war on terror" think that
if they can somehow "win" the "war against terrorism",they will live
forever...Obviously,the fact is that no matter what happens,with regard
to terrorism,our lives(in this paticular body) will be over extremly
soon any way...Life is extremly short for all people(life in one
paticular body that is)...do we want to spend every minute of every day
making life about "us against them",or do we want to spend the very
short time we have alive on this planet trying to be more peaceful?
http://www.leela.org/library/interviews/wegweiser03.html
-"alvintchase"
.
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| User: "RGB" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 06:18:09 PM |
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In article <1120948944.855910.288310@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
wrote:
I get the feeling that many of the people who are most concerned
about the "war on terror" think that if they can somehow "win" the
"war against terrorism", they will live forever.
What people give you this feeling? I've never gotten it from anyone.
Do we want to spend every minute of every day making life about "us
against them", or do we want to spend the very short time we have
alive on this planet trying to be more peaceful?
I can sort of relate to your point, particularly as a US citizen who
despises George W. Bush, but really... in New York, in Madrid, now in
London, who is "them", and who made it "us against them"?
Peace is good. It's hard to be peaceful while blown-off parts of your
body are flying through the air, though.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 06:23:21 PM |
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Thank you RGB I also find it hard to feel to peacefull while blown off
parts of innocent people , mothers brothers sisters are bouncing off
subway walls , and I certianly can't pretend it did not happen,
jill
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| User: "Whiskers" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 06:39:06 PM |
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On 2005-07-09, <> wrote:
What we need is to stop talking about what we should have done. Or
could have done ,,, to change the current situation. All this
political in fighting is ridiculous. We are in it now and we have to
deal with it.
What we need is information. What we need is people on the inside of
Hamas and AlQueda. We need to know who, what, when and where. We
need SPECIFICS! Why can we not infiltrate?, The only way to bring
these people down is from the inside.
In so far as there are organistions to infiltrate, I'm sure it is being
tried. It takes years though.
I think its important to remember that it is not the Iraqi people who
are fighting the occupation forces in Iraq. The insurgents, the
terriosts are from all over the middle east. Syria. lebanonon. Iran.
Over 100,000 Iraqi's have been killed in the last two years. How ever
noble our motives may have been. ( I for one think all that sword of
Guideon stuff was monumental BS.) This occupation is about having a
foothold in the middle east. It is about the balance of world power. It
is not about freeing the oppressed. Pleeeese. As far as ordinary Iraqi
citizens are concerned. We created the situation that directly lead to
there getting shot and blown up.
When the Turkish (Ottoman) empire was dismantled after WWI, many of the
Arab leaders and people wanted to establish an Arab nation - with territory
going from Syria to Yemen and from the Mediterranean to the borfers with
Persia. That desire has not 'gone away' just because the Great Powers in
1918 (France and Britain) forced the carving up of the region into largely
fictitious 'countries', without regard to the geography or the cultures or
disires of the people living there, so that they could impose their own
'rulers' or 'governments' to keep order while the foreigners profited from
the region's precious resources (oil, mostly).
After WWII the 'Great Powers' controlling things were the USSR and the USA,
but little else changed. Russia is no longer able to balance the power of
the USA, so things are cracking up. The USA is going to have to find a way
to impose its own will across the whole region, or find a way to live with
the consequences if (when) the people who live there do finally manage to
get the government(s) they freely choose for themselves, in the form they
want. It will be messy; the longer they are forced to have the Monarchies
imposed by the French and British, or the presidential systems imposed by
the Russians and Americans, the more messy things will be.
Meanwhile, grievances continue to pile up against 'the West' - in the Arab
countries and elsewhere. It is in the power of our leaders to address
those grievances, but they are being very slow and reluctant to do so.
*That* is the problem.
The subway bombings were appalling . wretched. Its so different
when it happens in Iraq though. Innocent people are being blown up
there everyday and they are seen as somehow complicit. Thats
outrageous. Are thier life's less important.
Dark times ahead , this is not goint to go away. We need clear
goals too. We are never going to "win the war on terror" There will
always be people who are willing to blow themselves up. We need to be
clear on that. Get real about we can do for all the people everywhere
to save the human race. Make no mistake the stakes are that high or
they soon will be.
jill
If we could all feel equally distressed by the victims of violence wherever
they live, in Sudan or Burma or Thailand or Colombia or New York or Los
Angeles or Madrid or London, then perhaps we might be motivated to try and
change things for the better *eveywhere*. Of course, to do that we would
first have to be made equally aware of *all* the violence, wherever and by
whoever it is done. The sources of information most vigourously presented
to us are carefully managed to make sure that they do not give us that
information or balance. Presumably, some of the violence serves the
interests of those who try to control our access to information. The other
problem is that for things to be made better for everyone, some of us would
have to give up some things we are rather attached to.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
.
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| User: "humble.life" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 07:19:43 PM |
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If we could all feel equally distressed by the victims of violence wherever
they live, in Sudan or Burma or Thailand or Colombia or New York or Los
Angeles or Madrid or London, then perhaps we might be motivated to try and
change things for the better *eveywhere*. Of course, to do that we would
first have to be made equally aware of *all* the violence, wherever and by
whoever it is done. The sources of information most vigourously presented
to us are carefully managed to make sure that they do not give us that
information or balance. Presumably, some of the violence serves the
interests of those who try to control our access to information. The other
problem is that for things to be made better for everyone, some of us would
have to give up some things we are rather attached to.
i think it's going to have to happen. i'm not saying i'm supporting the
idea of making it happen, i'm just saying that we exist in a world where
we don't really understand the lives of others. we don't connect to
what our money does. we just look at the model sold to us in images,
news reports and fame. i say "we", of course it's been written about in
philosophy and theology so it's not a new concept, however, total up the
problems with ID cards, with terrorism, the understanding of Mental
Health (what a mess that diagnosis system is in....) and you've got one
hell of a mess. And finding out what it boils down to seems to be an
impatient must...
.
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 09:06:52 PM |
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On 9 Jul 2005 14:00:54 -0700, wrote:
I think its important to remember that it is not the Iraqi people who
are fighting the occupation forces in Iraq. The insurgents, the
terriosts are from all over the middle east. Syria. lebanonon. Iran.
Over 100,000 Iraqi's have been killed in the last two years. How ever
noble our motives may have been. ( I for one think all that sword of
Guideon stuff was monumental BS.) This occupation is about having a
foothold in the middle east. It is about the balance of world power. It
is not about freeing the oppressed. Pleeeese. As far as ordinary Iraqi
citizens are concerned. We created the situation that directly lead to
there getting shot and blown up.
Things are rarely so simple as "we fight this war for freedom". That isn't
to say that Iraq isn't about helping spread democracy. It is. But
obviously spreading democracy is an especially pressing issue when it comes
to regions of the world that much of the rest of the world depend on for a
basic commodity.
I don't see anything wrong with that. You can't fight every battle. So
you have to pick the ones that stand to have the greatest influence.
--
The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter,
taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are
the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and
prove it.
- P.J. O'Rourke
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| User: "ponette" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 09:18:06 PM |
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On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 02:06:52 GMT, CyberDroog
<CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with that. You can't fight every battle. So
you have to pick the ones that stand to have the greatest influence.
I'm pretty much apolitical. But I still don't get the idea of fighting
a battle with the next-door neighbor of the government laying claim to
running Boeing planes into your skyscrapers. Or putting bombs in
British subways. I guess I mighta missed somethin' essential in the
fight-the-guy-who's-actually-claiming-to-be- your-enemy bit. What's
new? I'm politically ignorant. But I don't think I'm quite THAT
ignorant, after all. There's somethin' in here that hits me as pretty
misguided. But eh? what do I know?
p
--
x-no-archive: yes is in the headers
.
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
10 Jul 2005 03:07:42 AM |
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On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 19:18:06 -0700, ponette <ponette0000@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 02:06:52 GMT, CyberDroog
<CyberDroog@ClockworkOrange.com> wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with that. You can't fight every battle. So
you have to pick the ones that stand to have the greatest influence.
I'm pretty much apolitical. But I still don't get the idea of fighting
a battle with the next-door neighbor of the government laying claim to
running Boeing planes into your skyscrapers. Or putting bombs in
British subways. I guess I mighta missed somethin' essential in the
fight-the-guy-who's-actually-claiming-to-be- your-enemy bit. What's
new? I'm politically ignorant. But I don't think I'm quite THAT
ignorant, after all. There's somethin' in here that hits me as pretty
misguided. But eh? what do I know?
I still don't see a problem. Most of the 9/11 guys were Saudi's. That
doesn't mean that all Saudi's are bad, or that only the Saudi's are against
the West.
Saddam Hussein was definitely anti-West, if only to make the Iraqi sheeple
less ambivalent towards him. He most definitely supported terrorism, again
if only to gain the favor of islamic zealots since, by most accounts,
Saddam is only a tongue-in-cheek muslim.
Most of the insurgents in Iraq now are not Iraqis, nor are they all
Saudi's. Most people would be ambivalent towards an armed force that
invaded their country. But I suspect that most Iraqis are neither
pro-extremist nor anti-West. The ousting of Saddam may have been messy,
but most Iraqis are probably still hoping that in the end they will
continue to be a more advanced country without being saddled with a
self-serving dictator.
--
Man is not the creature of circumstances, circumstances are the creatures
of men. We are free agents, and man is more powerful than matter.
- Benjamin Disraeli
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| User: "Thomas Dehn" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
09 Jul 2005 10:38:30 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
<janeohara50@msn.com> wrote:
I think its important to remember that it is not the Iraqi people who
are fighting the occupation forces in Iraq. The insurgents, the
terriosts are from all over the middle east. Syria. lebanonon. Iran.
The bulk of the insurgents are from Iraq. With an unemployment
rate of approximately 50%, and more than 100,000 dead Iraqis
over the past two years, Iraq itself provides an endless supply of angry
and desperate people.
Thomas
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| User: "CyberDroog" |
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| Title: Re: terriosts |
10 Jul 2005 03:11:33 AM |
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On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 05:38:30 +0200, "Thomas Dehn" <thomas-usenet@arcor.de>
wrote:
<janeohara50@msn.com> wrote:
I think its important to remember that it is not the Iraqi people who
are fighting the occupation forces in Iraq. The insurgents, the
terriosts are from all over the middle east. Syria. lebanonon. Iran.
The bulk of the insurgents are from Iraq. With an unemployment
rate of approximately 50%, and more than 100,000 dead Iraqis
over the past two years, Iraq itself provides an endless supply of angry
and desperate people.
Yet more and more Iraqis are joining the police forces. And lately they
have been more bold in doing so, whereas early on they went to great
lengths to hide their identities.
Things are rough, but to many Iraqis things weren't a party under Saddam
either. 50% unemployment... well, that's marginally higher than in
Germany... ;) But it's to be expected under the circumstances.
It can all still work out for the best.
--
We cannot but be astonished at the ease with which men resign themselves
to ignorance about what is most important for them to know; and we may be
certain that they are determined to remain invincibly ignorant if they once
come to consider it as axiomatic that there are no absolute principles.
- Fredric Bastiat
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