| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"Indigo Moon Man" |
| Date: |
25 Dec 2003 11:44:51 AM |
| Object: |
What is Christmas all about? |
I felt inspired to do a little writing yesterday and today and thought I would
share it with everyone.
============================
WHAT IS CHRISTMAS ALL ABOUT?
We all pretty much know that the Christmas holiday celebrates the birth of
Jesus. But do we what Jesus means to us? Matthew 1:23 (KJV) says, "Behold, a
virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call
his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." The Lord of
glory, The Prince of Peace, The Alpha and Omega, The mighty God robed himself
in flesh and came down to our level to minister to us. He lived as we live
and was tempted just as we are tempted yet he remained without sin (Hebrews
4:15). He lived his life here on earth as an example to us of what we should
be striving for spiritually. He provided the perfect example to us how we
should live our lives in this present world.
God also presented himself as the perfect sacrifice for our sins. He took our
place on that cross. As surely as we now live, each of us deserved to be on
that cross but instead God gave us beauty for ashes (Isaiah 61:3). As it says
in Isaiah 53, He was despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and
acquainted with grief (Isaiah 53:3). He bore our griefs, and carried our
sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted (Isaiah
53:4). Think about that for a minute. God came to earth to save us from an
eternity in hell and we rejected him, esteemed him not. Jesus was despised and
rejected by his own creation. Can you imagine how it would feel if your own
children despised and rejected you? And it didn't stop there. Because of His
love for us, He bore upon His shoulders the reproach of all humanity that,
through him we might have everlasting life (1 John 4:9). He was wounded for
our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our
peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed (Isaiah 53:5). He took
upon himself all of this grief, sorrow and pain yet we largely
reject him. Nevertheless, forgiveness is still ours for the asking, we have
but to come to God with a contrite spirit, repenting, then God will be
faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). What a wonderful place
this present world would be if we were able to love our friends and neighbors
the way Jesus loves us. I pray that we always remember that Jesus truly is
the reason for the season and I hope that we never forget what God has done
(and is still doing) for us.
.
|
|
| User: "Jernau Gurgeh" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 03:11:40 PM |
|
|
Indigo Moon Man wrote on 25 Dec 2003 in alt.support.depression
<snip>
Think about
that for a minute. God came to earth to save us from an eternity in
hell and we rejected him, esteemed him not.
Ehrm, he was the geezer who devised the eternity in hell in the first
place. Now that I've thought about it for a minute his rejection seems well
earned.
Although I have to admit that for me this topic is on a par with whether
Rudolf's nose is really red.
But regardless of our different outlooks on life, I love you and my other
brethren in ASD/F anyway. Merry Christmas.
Jernau
--
"Anybody who wants religion is welcome to it, as far as I'm concerned -- I
support your right to enjoy it. However, I would appreciate it if you
exhibited more respect for the rights of those people who do not wish to
share your dogma, rapture or necrodestination."
-Frank Zappa
.
|
|
|
| User: "Whateverafter" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 04:06:19 PM |
|
|
Subject: Re: What is Christmas all about?
From: Jernau Gurgeh
Date: 12/25/2003 3:11 PM Central America Standard Time
Message-id: <Xns945CE1B21BBFSynchroniseUrDogmas@127.0.0.1>
Indigo Moon Man wrote on 25 Dec 2003 in alt.support.depression
<snip>
Think about
that for a minute. God came to earth to save us from an eternity in
hell and we rejected him, esteemed him not.
Ehrm, he was the geezer who devised the eternity in hell in the first
place. Now that I've thought about it for a minute his rejection seems well
earned.
Although I have to admit that for me this topic is on a par with whether
Rudolf's nose is really red.
But regardless of our different outlooks on life, I love you and my other
brethren in ASD/F anyway. Merry Christmas.
Jernau
--
"Anybody who wants religion is welcome to it, as far as I'm concerned -- I
support your right to enjoy it. However, I would appreciate it if you
exhibited more respect for the rights of those people who do not wish to
share your dogma, rapture or necrodestination."
-Frank Zappa
In reality, the concept of Hell, and of God burning ppl ther forever for
their sins is not a Biblical teaching. The Bible teaches that "the wages of
sin is death" not eternal torment. It moreso originated with Plato, and his
musings and school of thought. Job actually prayed to go to hell to escape
his torment. Whey would he do that if hell was a place of torment?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Indigo Moon Man" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 04:32:47 PM |
|
|
Whateverafter <whateverafter@aol.com> spake thusly:
In reality, the concept of Hell, and of God burning ppl ther forever
for their sins is not a Biblical teaching. The Bible teaches that "the
wages of sin is death" not eternal torment. It moreso originated with
Plato, and his musings and school of thought. Job actually prayed to go
to hell to escape his torment. Whey would he do that if hell was a place
of torment?
Actually hell is a Biblical teaching also. The word hell appears in the
King James Version of the Bible 54 times (number gotten from Theophilos
Bible study program) and is referred to descriptively several times.
Following are just a few scripture passages mentioning hell; Deuteronomy
32:22, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 18:9, Mark 9:43-47, James 3:6 and Revelation
20:14-15.
--
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding,
shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:7
.
|
|
|
| User: "Whateverafter" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 05:34:26 PM |
|
|
Subject: Re: What is Christmas all about?
From: "Indigo Moon Man"
Date: 12/25/2003 4:32 PM Central America Standard Time
Message-id: <bsfoin$ck1vh$1@ID-70710.news.uni-berlin.de>
Whateverafter <whateverafter@aol.com> spake thusly:
In reality, the concept of Hell, and of God burning ppl ther forever
for their sins is not a Biblical teaching. The Bible teaches that "the
wages of sin is death" not eternal torment. It moreso originated with
Plato, and his musings and school of thought. Job actually prayed to go
to hell to escape his torment. Whey would he do that if hell was a place
of torment?
Actually hell is a Biblical teaching also. The word hell appears in the
King James Version of the Bible 54 times (number gotten from Theophilos
Bible study program) and is referred to descriptively several times.
Following are just a few scripture passages mentioning hell; Deuteronomy
32:22, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 18:9, Mark 9:43-47, James 3:6 and Revelation
20:14-15.
--
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding,
shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:7
Yes, you are right, hell is mentioned in the Bible many times. In
Ecclesiates it states that that is where everyone is going at death. He's
referring to the fact that we all die and go to our grave, into non existance.
Eccl. also says that when we die we have no thoughts, no devising , no work,
that our thoughts do perish. There are many references to gehenna, the lake of
fire, and other expressions. Gehenna was the place where criminals bodies were
thrown after they were dead, and where the fire never went out. But the bodies
didn't feel any pain, nor did they burn eternally. It was an apt description
of the eternal death of those with no resurrection hope. The "lake of fire" ,
also a picture Jesus painted from the typical representation of the burning
fires outside Jerusalem, was the name given to "the second death" a death with
no hope of revival from. Even death 'and' Hades are said to be thrown into it.
so how would Hades (hell) be thrown into hell? You see, it was depicting how
death and man's common grave, where we 'sleep' in death, would be totally done
away with, when God's tent would be with mankind.
The Bible says "the wages sin pays is death". And the "man that has died has
been aquitted from his sins". So, if he is 'aquitted' wouldn't that mean that
he would not have to keep paying for them eternally. Aquitted means you have
done your time and have paid your debt, or 'the wages of sin".. And that the
"soul that is sinning, it itself would die' Eze. 18:4 So there would be no
soul living eternally to go to this place and burn.
Your refence to Deuteronomy could very well be seen to say this. But, if
you look at it again, God was telling how his ppl had incited him to anger, a
'fire'. The fire is his anger, and he descibed how the destruction that was to
cone upon the ppl of Israel. If you read in the whole chapter, you can see how
he ways that they will be exhausted from hunger and be eaten up by burning
fever and bitter destruction. The verse you gave me says that this fire will
consume the 'earth' and its produce and will set ablaze the foundations of
mountains. gAnd he ways it will burn down to sheal. But that doesn't say
that She-ol is a burning place, he is telling hen that his anger will be upon
them tin this matter of their idolatry, down to she-o.l. For how , if it meant
that sheol is where the 'fire' is, would it consume the earth and its produce
and the foundations of mountains? That would mean then that the earth and the
produce and the mountains would be in hell.
You know, I hope you will take this as a discussion of these important
things, because we are suppose to delve into knowledge and 'make sure of all
things'.
I know you have a great faith in God and just wanted to express that.
That's a really good thing.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Nom dePlume nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
26 Dec 2003 01:18:17 AM |
|
|
This is a fascinating thread, guys. Thanks for the education. I, too,
had the idea that Hell in the more-or-less modern sense was a concept
that took form after the Gospels were written, as people tried to
understand what eternal life after death really meant. What you've
said so far seems to point this way, with the proviso that the words
"Hell" and "Gehenna" did appear in the Bible, albeit with somewhat
different meanings.
--
Nom dePlume, Ph.D
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
"Whateverafter" <whateverafter@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031225183426.09564.00001597@mb-m17.aol.com...
Subject: Re: What is Christmas all about?
From: "Indigo Moon Man"
Date: 12/25/2003 4:32 PM Central America Standard Time
Message-id: <bsfoin$ck1vh$1@ID-70710.news.uni-berlin.de>
Whateverafter <whateverafter@aol.com> spake thusly:
In reality, the concept of Hell, and of God burning ppl ther
forever
for their sins is not a Biblical teaching. The Bible teaches
that "the
wages of sin is death" not eternal torment. It moreso originated
with
Plato, and his musings and school of thought. Job actually
prayed to go
to hell to escape his torment. Whey would he do that if hell was
a place
of torment?
Actually hell is a Biblical teaching also. The word hell appears
in the
King James Version of the Bible 54 times (number gotten from
Theophilos
Bible study program) and is referred to descriptively several
times.
Following are just a few scripture passages mentioning hell;
Deuteronomy
32:22, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 18:9, Mark 9:43-47, James 3:6 and
Revelation
20:14-15.
--
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding,
shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:7
Yes, you are right, hell is mentioned in the Bible many times.
In
Ecclesiates it states that that is where everyone is going at death.
He's
referring to the fact that we all die and go to our grave, into non
existance.
Eccl. also says that when we die we have no thoughts, no devising ,
no work,
that our thoughts do perish. There are many references to gehenna,
the lake of
fire, and other expressions. Gehenna was the place where criminals
bodies were
thrown after they were dead, and where the fire never went out. But
the bodies
didn't feel any pain, nor did they burn eternally. It was an apt
description
of the eternal death of those with no resurrection hope. The "lake
of fire" ,
also a picture Jesus painted from the typical representation of the
burning
fires outside Jerusalem, was the name given to "the second death" a
death with
no hope of revival from. Even death 'and' Hades are said to be
thrown into it.
so how would Hades (hell) be thrown into hell? You see, it was
depicting how
death and man's common grave, where we 'sleep' in death, would be
totally done
away with, when God's tent would be with mankind.
The Bible says "the wages sin pays is death". And the "man that
has died has
been aquitted from his sins". So, if he is 'aquitted' wouldn't that
mean that
he would not have to keep paying for them eternally. Aquitted means
you have
done your time and have paid your debt, or 'the wages of sin"..
And that the
"soul that is sinning, it itself would die' Eze. 18:4 So there
would be no
soul living eternally to go to this place and burn.
Your refence to Deuteronomy could very well be seen to say this.
But, if
you look at it again, God was telling how his ppl had incited him to
anger, a
'fire'. The fire is his anger, and he descibed how the destruction
that was to
cone upon the ppl of Israel. If you read in the whole chapter, you
can see how
he ways that they will be exhausted from hunger and be eaten up by
burning
fever and bitter destruction. The verse you gave me says that this
fire will
consume the 'earth' and its produce and will set ablaze the
foundations of
mountains. gAnd he ways it will burn down to sheal. But that
doesn't say
that She-ol is a burning place, he is telling hen that his anger
will be upon
them tin this matter of their idolatry, down to she-o.l. For how ,
if it meant
that sheol is where the 'fire' is, would it consume the earth and
its produce
and the foundations of mountains? That would mean then that the
earth and the
produce and the mountains would be in hell.
You know, I hope you will take this as a discussion of these
important
things, because we are suppose to delve into knowledge and 'make
sure of all
things'.
I know you have a great faith in God and just wanted to express
that.
That's a really good thing.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Indigo Moon Man" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 04:11:50 PM |
|
|
Jernau Gurgeh <jernaugurgeh@mind.snuh> spake thusly:
Indigo Moon Man wrote on 25 Dec 2003 in alt.support.depression
<snip>
Think about
that for a minute. God came to earth to save us from an eternity in
hell and we rejected him, esteemed him not.
Ehrm, he was the geezer who devised the eternity in hell in the first
place. Now that I've thought about it for a minute his rejection seems
well earned.
Although I have to admit that for me this topic is on a par with whether
Rudolf's nose is really red.
But regardless of our different outlooks on life, I love you and my other
brethren in ASD/F anyway. Merry Christmas.
Well, I won't stop talking about religion but I will make sure in the future
to spoiler my posts about religion.
--
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding,
shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:7
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Luna" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 11:51:36 AM |
|
|
Indigo Moon Man wrote:
I felt inspired to do a little writing yesterday and today and
thought I would share it with everyone.
<snip>
Jesus has nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to do with it for me. He's an
incidental excuse to show others how much I love them, that's what it is
for me, and for our family.
Jean
.
|
|
|
| User: "Teilhard Knight" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 02:56:04 PM |
|
|
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bsf831$cjp3p$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de...
Indigo Moon Man wrote:
I felt inspired to do a little writing yesterday and today and
thought I would share it with everyone.
<snip>
Jesus has nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to do with it for me. He's an
incidental excuse to show others how much I love them, that's what it is
for me, and for our family.
You seem angry. I am not Christian, but I acknowledge Jesus Christ as one of
the greatest men ever in the spiritual dimension.
--
Teilhard Knight
The Extraterrestrial
Change "privacy" for "softhome" if you want to intrude my inbox
.
|
|
|
| User: "Luna" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 03:50:39 PM |
|
|
Teilhard Knight wrote:
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bsf831$cjp3p$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de...
Indigo Moon Man wrote:
I felt inspired to do a little writing yesterday and today and
thought I would share it with everyone.
<snip>
Jesus has nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to do with it for me. He's an
incidental excuse to show others how much I love them, that's what
it is for me, and for our family.
You seem angry. I am not Christian, but I acknowledge Jesus Christ as
one of the greatest men ever in the spiritual dimension.
Sorry, yeah, I guess I didn't respond too well. Sorry, as I said. :)
Jean
Change "privacy" for "softhome" if you want to intrude my inbox
.
|
|
|
| User: "Indigo Moon Man" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 04:10:08 PM |
|
|
Luna <jean_collins@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Jesus has nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to do with it for me. He's an
incidental excuse to show others how much I love them, that's what
it is for me, and for our family.
You seem angry. I am not Christian, but I acknowledge Jesus Christ as
one of the greatest men ever in the spiritual dimension.
Sorry, yeah, I guess I didn't respond too well. Sorry, as I said. :)
I'd like to apologize also, I should have spoilered it and I didn't.
--
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding,
shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:7
.
|
|
|
| User: "Nom dePlume nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
26 Dec 2003 01:13:33 AM |
|
|
Indigo, I'm not sure how much more you could have spoilered than you
did, considering your topic line!
--
Nom dePlume, Ph.D
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
"Indigo Moon Man" <indigomoon@bonbon.net> wrote in message
news:bsfn88$cga4b$1@ID-70710.news.uni-berlin.de...
Luna <jean_collins@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Jesus has nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to do with it for me.
He's an
incidental excuse to show others how much I love them, that's
what
it is for me, and for our family.
You seem angry. I am not Christian, but I acknowledge Jesus
Christ as
one of the greatest men ever in the spiritual dimension.
Sorry, yeah, I guess I didn't respond too well. Sorry, as I said.
:)
I'd like to apologize also, I should have spoilered it and I didn't.
--
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding,
shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:7
.
|
|
|
| User: "Indigo Moon Man" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
26 Dec 2003 04:57:28 PM |
|
|
Nom dePlume <nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com> spake thusly:
Indigo, I'm not sure how much more you could have spoilered than you
did, considering your topic line!
I hadn't thought of that. Good point.
--
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding,
shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:7
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Whateverafter" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 02:18:45 PM |
|
|
Subject: Re: What is Christmas all about?
From: "Luna"
Date: 12/25/2003 11:51 AM Central America Standard Time
Message-id: <bsf831$cjp3p$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de>
Indigo Moon Man wrote:
I felt inspired to do a little writing yesterday and today and
thought I would share it with everyone.
<snip>
Jesus has nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to do with it for me. He's an
incidental excuse to show others how much I love them, that's what it is
for me, and for our family.
Jean
It's really nice that we get time off from work, and that makes it more
possible to have time to spend with our families who we might not see as much
at other times. I get 5 days off, (counting the weekend.)
Jean, since Jesus' birth was not in the cold month of December, for
sheperds to be out watching their sheep, and the chronology points more to Oct,
and the Bible gives no date nor command to celibrate his birth at a certain
time, unlike his death, which is specified, and unlike the Jewish festivals
which were precisely dated and described as to how to observe them; and since,
rather, the date, as you probably know, is the birthdate of the Roman god
Mithra, the sun god, whose festival was celebrated on Dec. 25 with feasting and
caroling, and parties and gift giving, and evergreens were places about the
homes to assuage evil spirits who would stop the sun from being reborn anew;
and the tree is a carryover symbol of the god Tammaz who is the deification of
the Babylonian ruler Nimrod, also the yule log symbolizes his being cut down in
battle, then your just observing this as a day of being with family, ect, is
not far from the original meaning.
When the Israelites had been freed from Egyptian bondage and were out in
the wilderness, and Moses was taking a long time to come down out of the
mountain, the ppl talked Aaron into making a golden calf, like the ones the
Egyptians used in their ceremonies, but, to make it good they said, 'We will
call it a festival to Jehovah' then it won't be false worship they reasoned,
basically, but yet to God it still was.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ruby Tuesday" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 02:27:11 PM |
|
|
"Whateverafter" <whateverafter@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031225151845.26304.00001518@mb-m15.aol.com...
When the Israelites had been freed from Egyptian bondage and were
out in
the wilderness, and Moses was taking a long time to come down out of the
mountain, the ppl talked Aaron into making a golden calf, like the ones
the
Egyptians used in their ceremonies, but, to make it good they said, 'We
will
call it a festival to Jehovah' then it won't be false worship they
reasoned,
basically, but yet to God it still was.
How did Passover get in here again?
- Ruby Tuesday
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "JohnM" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 03:03:00 PM |
|
|
Christians, being an outcast sect in the view of the authorites of the time,
remembered Jesus on the same date as the other celebrations of the
contemporary religions so they could do so without getting the attention of
those authorties. Christians were not tolerated and were often jailed and
executed.
"Whateverafter" <whateverafter@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031225151845.26304.00001518@mb-m15.aol.com...
Subject: Re: What is Christmas all about?
From: "Luna"
Date: 12/25/2003 11:51 AM Central America Standard Time
Message-id: <bsf831$cjp3p$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de>
Indigo Moon Man wrote:
I felt inspired to do a little writing yesterday and today and
thought I would share it with everyone.
<snip>
Jesus has nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to do with it for me. He's an
incidental excuse to show others how much I love them, that's what it is
for me, and for our family.
Jean
It's really nice that we get time off from work, and that makes it more
possible to have time to spend with our families who we might not see as
much
at other times. I get 5 days off, (counting the weekend.)
Jean, since Jesus' birth was not in the cold month of December, for
sheperds to be out watching their sheep, and the chronology points more to
Oct,
and the Bible gives no date nor command to celibrate his birth at a
certain
time, unlike his death, which is specified, and unlike the Jewish
festivals
which were precisely dated and described as to how to observe them; and
since,
rather, the date, as you probably know, is the birthdate of the Roman god
Mithra, the sun god, whose festival was celebrated on Dec. 25 with
feasting and
caroling, and parties and gift giving, and evergreens were places about
the
homes to assuage evil spirits who would stop the sun from being reborn
anew;
and the tree is a carryover symbol of the god Tammaz who is the
deification of
the Babylonian ruler Nimrod, also the yule log symbolizes his being cut
down in
battle, then your just observing this as a day of being with family, ect,
is
not far from the original meaning.
When the Israelites had been freed from Egyptian bondage and were
out in
the wilderness, and Moses was taking a long time to come down out of the
mountain, the ppl talked Aaron into making a golden calf, like the ones
the
Egyptians used in their ceremonies, but, to make it good they said, 'We
will
call it a festival to Jehovah' then it won't be false worship they
reasoned,
basically, but yet to God it still was.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Whateverafter" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 04:01:24 PM |
|
|
Subject: Re: What is Christmas all about?
From: "JohnM"
Date: 12/25/2003 3:03 PM Central America Standard Time
Message-id: <8gIGb.403747$655.94627999@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Christians, being an outcast sect in the view of the authorites of the time,
remembered Jesus on the same date as the other celebrations of the
contemporary religions so they could do so without getting the attention of
those authorties. Christians were not tolerated and were often jailed and
executed.
"Whateverafter" <whateverafter@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031225151845.26304.00001518@mb-m15.aol.com...
Subject: Re: What is Christmas all about?
From: "Luna"
Date: 12/25/2003 11:51 AM Central America Standard Time
Message-id: <bsf831$cjp3p$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de>
Indigo Moon Man wrote:
I felt inspired to do a little writing yesterday and today and
thought I would share it with everyone.
<snip>
Jesus has nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to do with it for me. He's an
incidental excuse to show others how much I love them, that's what it is
for me, and for our family.
Jean
It's really nice that we get time off from work, and that makes it more
possible to have time to spend with our families who we might not see as
much
at other times. I get 5 days off, (counting the weekend.)
Jean, since Jesus' birth was not in the cold month of December, for
sheperds to be out watching their sheep, and the chronology points more to
Oct,
and the Bible gives no date nor command to celibrate his birth at a
certain
time, unlike his death, which is specified, and unlike the Jewish
festivals
which were precisely dated and described as to how to observe them; and
since,
rather, the date, as you probably know, is the birthdate of the Roman god
Mithra, the sun god, whose festival was celebrated on Dec. 25 with
feasting and
caroling, and parties and gift giving, and evergreens were places about
the
homes to assuage evil spirits who would stop the sun from being reborn
anew;
and the tree is a carryover symbol of the god Tammaz who is the
deification of
the Babylonian ruler Nimrod, also the yule log symbolizes his being cut
down in
battle, then your just observing this as a day of being with family, ect,
is
not far from the original meaning.
When the Israelites had been freed from Egyptian bondage and were
out in
the wilderness, and Moses was taking a long time to come down out of the
mountain, the ppl talked Aaron into making a golden calf, like the ones
the
Egyptians used in their ceremonies, but, to make it good they said, 'We
will
call it a festival to Jehovah' then it won't be false worship they
reasoned,
basically, but yet to God it still was.
Actually, early christains, before 'Christainity' was accepted and became
part of the state, did not celebrate Jesus' birth, at least on a specific date
nor in the way it was instituted. it was intergrated with the pagan's
religious observances so that the state could have a 'universal' church,
religion, to control the masses and build empires. It really was rather a
political thing. At the time this celebration became an observance of Jesus'
birth, the church was not being [persecuted.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Indigo Moon Man" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 02:39:17 PM |
|
|
Whateverafter <whateverafter@aol.com> spake thusly:
ect, is not far from the original meaning. When the Israelites had
been freed from Egyptian bondage and were out in
the wilderness, and Moses was taking a long time to come down out of the
mountain, the ppl talked Aaron into making a golden calf, like the ones
the Egyptians used in their ceremonies, but, to make it good they said,
'We will call it a festival to Jehovah' then it won't be false worship
they reasoned, basically, but yet to God it still was.
The Israelites were worshipping the golden calf, that is what made it false
worship, not the particular day they chose to do it on.
--
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding,
shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:7
.
|
|
|
| User: "Whateverafter" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 03:55:16 PM |
|
|
Subject: Re: What is Christmas all about?
From: "Indigo Moon Man"
Date: 12/25/2003 2:39 PM Central America Standard Time
Message-id: <bsfhtt$cmfjq$1@ID-70710.news.uni-berlin.de>
Whateverafter <whateverafter@aol.com> spake thusly:
ect, is not far from the original meaning. When the Israelites had
been freed from Egyptian bondage and were out in
the wilderness, and Moses was taking a long time to come down out of the
mountain, the ppl talked Aaron into making a golden calf, like the ones
the Egyptians used in their ceremonies, but, to make it good they said,
'We will call it a festival to Jehovah' then it won't be false worship
they reasoned, basically, but yet to God it still was.
The Israelites were worshipping the golden calf, that is what made it false
worship, not the particular day they chose to do it on.
--
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding,
shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:7
That's not what i was refering to. It was the fact that they said they
wanted to make it into a 'festival to Jehovah", in other words use the same
trappings and symbols of the Egyptians religion and just simply 'change' it to
be a worship to Jehovah. That was the reason given in the Bible. This is
similar to what happened when the Catholic church changed the festival of the
Ropman Saturnalia and said 'but we will just call it the birth of Christ.. '
Which it wasn't.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Luna" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
26 Dec 2003 08:54:52 AM |
|
|
Whateverafter wrote:
Subject: Re: What is Christmas all about?
From: "Luna"
Date: 12/25/2003 11:51 AM Central America Standard Time
Message-id: <bsf831$cjp3p$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de>
Indigo Moon Man wrote:
I felt inspired to do a little writing yesterday and today and
thought I would share it with everyone.
<snip>
Jesus has nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to do with it for me. He's an
incidental excuse to show others how much I love them, that's what
it is for me, and for our family.
Jean
It's really nice that we get time off from work, and that makes it
more possible to have time to spend with our families who we might
not see as much at other times. I get 5 days off, (counting the
weekend.)
Ohhh, that's nice. Days off work are always nice. :)
Jean, since Jesus' birth was not in the cold month of December,
for sheperds to be out watching their sheep, and the chronology
points more to Oct, and the Bible gives no date nor command to
celibrate his birth at a certain time, unlike his death, which is
specified, and unlike the Jewish festivals which were precisely dated
and described as to how to observe them; and since, rather, the date,
as you probably know, is the birthdate of the Roman god Mithra, the
sun god, whose festival was celebrated on Dec. 25 with feasting and
caroling, and parties and gift giving, and evergreens were places
about the homes to assuage evil spirits who would stop the sun from
being reborn anew; and the tree is a carryover symbol of the god
Tammaz who is the deification of the Babylonian ruler Nimrod, also
the yule log symbolizes his being cut down in battle, then your just
observing this as a day of being with family, ect, is not far from
the original meaning. When the Israelites had been freed from
Egyptian bondage and were out in the wilderness, and Moses was taking
a long time to come down out of the mountain, the ppl talked Aaron
into making a golden calf, like the ones the Egyptians used in their
ceremonies, but, to make it good they said, 'We will call it a
festival to Jehovah' then it won't be false worship they reasoned,
basically, but yet to God it still was.
How interesting. I am very ignorant about theology, like most
Catholics. :)
Jean
.
|
|
|
| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?10=A2_punk?=" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
28 Dec 2003 08:21:00 PM |
|
|
Luna wrote:
How interesting. I am very ignorant like most
% groupies. :)
Jean
uh huh.....wow, one thing i can agree with you on..
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "liah van" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
26 Dec 2003 06:38:06 PM |
|
|
From: "Luna"
Indigo Moon Man wrote:
I felt inspired to do a little writing yesterday and today and
thought I would share it with everyone.
<snip>
Jesus has nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to do with it for me. He's an
incidental excuse to show others how much I love them, that's what it is
for me, and for our family.
Jean
I understand this. my family gets me into church one day a year. this year it
was really bad. I was angry just to be there. i get if you were a good parent
you'd take your child weekly.
i sat there wed night between my gma and my mother angry. hearing them sing
pissed me off... being forced to do this makes it even worse. i listen to
those stories and think of them as just that... stories. i'd just as soon
worship zeus, thank you very much.
liah
"He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad."
.
|
|
|
| User: "Nom dePlume nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
26 Dec 2003 11:25:31 PM |
|
|
"liah van" <hailnayr@aol.comREMOVEME> wrote in message
news:20031226193806.10830.00001051@mb-m24.aol.com...
I understand this. my family gets me into church one day a year.
this year it
was really bad. I was angry just to be there. i get if you were a
good parent
you'd take your child weekly.
i sat there wed night between my gma and my mother angry. hearing
them sing
pissed me off... being forced to do this makes it even worse.
Going to church in this fashion isn't doing anyone much good, I'd say.
Do you really have to go? I assumed you were old enough to make these
decisions for yourself.
--
Nom dePlume, Ph.D
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
.
|
|
|
| User: "liah van" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
29 Dec 2003 10:54:15 PM |
|
|
From: "Nom dePlume" nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com
"liah van" <hailnayr@aol.comREMOVEME> wrote in message
news:20031226193806.10830.00001051@mb-m24.aol.com...
I understand this. my family gets me into church one day a year.
this year it
was really bad. I was angry just to be there. i get if you were a
good parent
you'd take your child weekly.
i sat there wed night between my gma and my mother angry. hearing
them sing
pissed me off... being forced to do this makes it even worse.
Going to church in this fashion isn't doing anyone much good, I'd say.
Do you really have to go? I assumed you were old enough to make these
decisions for yourself.
oh i am more than old enough to make these decisions but i'm from a very
religious family. they won't acknowledge the fact i'm not a believer. i go
every christmas to help preserve some family peace but it ruins my disposition
for the evening.
liah
"He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad."
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Nom dePlume nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 01:29:36 PM |
|
|
Um, that's fine, but why such a vehement response? Did Indigo's
posting contain something you found offensive?
--
Nom dePlume, Ph.D
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bsf831$cjp3p$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de...
Indigo Moon Man wrote:
I felt inspired to do a little writing yesterday and today and
thought I would share it with everyone.
<snip>
Jesus has nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to do with it for me. He's
an
incidental excuse to show others how much I love them, that's what
it is
for me, and for our family.
Jean
.
|
|
|
| User: "CyberDroog" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
26 Dec 2003 11:17:11 AM |
|
|
I have no idea what this thread has become, so I'm just going to answer the
question in the subject line...
Christmas is all about a seven foot tall, silver and green stainless
aluminum Christmas tree illuminated by two very hot white floodlights.
One of my continual regrets is leaving that tree behind when we moved one
time. I can remember asking my father, "Aren't we going to take the
Christmas tree?" He said it was just old garbage.
That's odd since dad collects piles of old garbage, and is a spend-thrift
always in pursuit of new garbage.
Sigh... I really wish I had taken it upon myself to take that tree with us.
There is no Christmas for me without that tree.
---
The Hitch Hiker's Guide has not been an opera. It has however been a tapestry,
if you count a woven bath towel as a tapestry.
- Douglas Adams
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Alan Harding" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 03:31:43 PM |
|
|
In message <bsfe1901nhf@enews3.newsguy.com>, Nom dePlume
<nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com@?.?.invalid> writes
Um, that's fine, but why such a vehement response? Did Indigo's
posting contain something you found offensive?
Religion upsets a lot of people here, and IMM is making a lot of
religious posts these days.
--
The opinions given above may be mine. They might also
just be what I feel like saying right now, okay?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Trishamolson" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
30 Dec 2003 03:32:12 PM |
|
|
This whole thread was so interesting!!
Rosena
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?10=A2_punk?=" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
28 Dec 2003 08:20:59 PM |
|
|
Nom dePlume wrote:
Um, that's fine, but why such a vehement response? Did Indigo's
posting contain something you found offensive?
lunas' another % groupie.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Luna" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
25 Dec 2003 03:47:58 PM |
|
|
Nom dePlume wrote:
Um, that's fine, but why such a vehement response? Did Indigo's
posting contain something you found offensive?
Sort of. Well, let me be more assertive - Yes.
Jean
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bsf831$cjp3p$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de...
Indigo Moon Man wrote:
I felt inspired to do a little writing yesterday and today and
thought I would share it with everyone.
<snip>
Jesus has nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to do with it for me. He's an
incidental excuse to show others how much I love them, that's what
it is for me, and for our family.
Jean
.
|
|
|
| User: "Nom dePlume nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com" |
|
| Title: Re: What is Christmas all about? |
26 Dec 2003 01:21:00 AM |
|
|
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you have (or had) a good time with your
family. I am enjoying the chance to take time off work and spend it
with mine. My 7-year old daughter and I have had fun soldering
together.
--
Nom dePlume, Ph.D
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bsflu8$ap9na$1@ID-66050.news.uni-berlin.de...
Nom dePlume wrote:
Um, that's fine, but why such a vehement response? Did Indigo's
posting contain something you found offensive?
Sort of. Well, let me be more assertive - Yes.
Jean
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
