Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah



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Topic: Sociology > Education
User: ""
Date: 02 Mar 2006 04:41:04 AM
Object: Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah
Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/national/28utah.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
New York Times - United States
.... matter. A spokesman for Americans United for Separation of Church and
State, Joe Conn, said Utah's vote would resonate. "If the ...
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User: "Cary Kittrell"

Title: Re: Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah 02 Mar 2006 12:05:31 PM
In article <ttid02p0rgvpi2dclb1t9qdfuen2k7fhsg@4ax.com>
writes:

Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/national/28utah.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
New York Times - United States
... matter. A spokesman for Americans United for Separation of Church and
State, Joe Conn, said Utah's vote would resonate. "If the ...

Hmmm....can anyone explain this to me, taken from the article
linked above?:
Some Mormon legislators opposed the bill because they agreed with
Mr. Urquhart that science and religion should remain separate,
others because they thought intelligent design was not in keeping
with traditional Mormon belief.
It's that last part which puzzles me.
-- cary
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah 02 Mar 2006 03:30:04 PM
(Cary Kittrell) wrote:

:|In article <ttid02p0rgvpi2dclb1t9qdfuen2k7fhsg@4ax.com>

writes:
:|> Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah
:|> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/national/28utah.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
:|> New York Times - United States
:|> ... matter. A spokesman for Americans United for Separation of Church and
:|> State, Joe Conn, said Utah's vote would resonate. "If the ...
:|
:|
:|Hmmm....can anyone explain this to me, taken from the article
:|linked above?:
:|
:| Some Mormon legislators opposed the bill because they agreed with
:| Mr. Urquhart that science and religion should remain separate,
:| others because they thought intelligent design was not in keeping
:| with traditional Mormon belief.
:|
:|
:|It's that last part which puzzles me.
:|

maybe they don't have any tradition of intelligence lol

:|-- cary
:|

.

User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah 02 Mar 2006 10:58:08 PM
(Cary Kittrell) wrote:

In article <ttid02p0rgvpi2dclb1t9qdfuen2k7fhsg@4ax.com>

writes:

Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/national/28utah.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
New York Times - United States
... matter. A spokesman for Americans United for Separation of Church and
State, Joe Conn, said Utah's vote would resonate. "If the ...



Hmmm....can anyone explain this to me, taken from the article
linked above?:

Some Mormon legislators opposed the bill because they agreed with
Mr. Urquhart that science and religion should remain separate,
others because they thought intelligent design was not in keeping
with traditional Mormon belief.


It's that last part which puzzles me.

Here's blog essay that might help. It starts from an earlier NYT
article by the same reporter:
http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2006/02/evolution-measure-splits-state.html
Excerpts
NYT:
<He and other lawmakers say that part of the debate here is in fact
< over what kind of religion would be buttressed by the legislation.
< Although the Origins of Life bill, as it is formally known, does not
< mention an alternative theory to evolution, some legislators say they
< think that voting yes could be tantamount to supporting intelligent
< design, which posits an undefined intelligence lurking behind the
< miracles of life and which differs greatly from the Mormon creation
< story.
<...
<Utah's predominant faith has also made its stance less predictable on
< other issues touching on religion in school ˜ notably school prayer.
< Enthusiasm for the idea has been muted or ambivalent, said Kirk
< Jowers, a professor of political science and director of the Hinckley
< Institute of Politics at the University of Utah. Professor Jowers
< pointed to the awareness among Mormons of their religion's minority
< status in the nation and world.
<
<"It was kind of a realization that if you push to have prayer in
< school, then outside of Utah, the prayer would not typically be a
< Mormon's prayer, so is that road you want go down?" Professor Jowers
< said.
Commentary:
<The Utah case is very special, in the same way that Utah is very
< special: if any state in the US could be considered a “theocracy,”
< it's Utah. Mormons control the state government and legislature and
< virtually all other governmental and social institutions. Despite
< this, they have generally resisted the temptation to intrude religion
< into politics. Voters in the state are generally quite conservative
< (voter registration is overwhelmingly Republican), but it would be
< difficult to pigeonhole them as the kind of conservative that toes
< the fundamentalist/creationist party line. True, one of their state
< senators, D. Chris Buttars (Republican) is clearly a creationist, but
< the Mormon mainstream is definitely not on the side of either
< creationism or “intelligent design.”
< ...
<Furthermore, as is pointed out in the article, Mormon theology
< deviates quite substantially from fundamentalist Christianity. As
< might be expected from the largest and most successful religion
< founded in 19th century America (in upstate New York, just a short
< drive from here, no less), Mormonism is both forward-looking and open
< to “new revelation.” Unlike the fundamentalist creationist
< Christians, therefore, most Mormons don't necessarily view the Bible
< (nor the Book of Mormon) as literal truth, nor do they have the
< innate fear of science and technology shared by most fundamentalists.
Note that the Mormon creation story is quite different from a literal
reading of Genesis. Trying to find it summarized, I found mostly
critiques. This one in particular is entertaining, though probably
rather seriously distorts a couple of the beliefs by the choice of
wording. See especially the mentions of Kolob.
http://www.i4m.com/think/lists/mormon_science.htm
lojbab
.
User: "Cary Kittrell"

Title: Re: Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah 03 Mar 2006 09:46:25 AM
In article <fuhf02dfl0smu6to2623eo8tbn61qauqnr@4ax.com> Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> writes:

cary@afone.as.arizona.edu (Cary Kittrell) wrote:

In article <ttid02p0rgvpi2dclb1t9qdfuen2k7fhsg@4ax.com>

writes:

Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/national/28utah.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
New York Times - United States
... matter. A spokesman for Americans United for Separation of Church and
State, Joe Conn, said Utah's vote would resonate. "If the ...



Hmmm....can anyone explain this to me, taken from the article
linked above?:

Some Mormon legislators opposed the bill because they agreed with
Mr. Urquhart that science and religion should remain separate,
others because they thought intelligent design was not in keeping
with traditional Mormon belief.


It's that last part which puzzles me.


Here's blog essay that might help. It starts from an earlier NYT
article by the same reporter:
http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2006/02/evolution-measure-splits-state.html

Excerpts
NYT:
<He and other lawmakers say that part of the debate here is in fact
< over what kind of religion would be buttressed by the legislation.
< Although the Origins of Life bill, as it is formally known, does not
< mention an alternative theory to evolution, some legislators say they
< think that voting yes could be tantamount to supporting intelligent
< design, which posits an undefined intelligence lurking behind the
< miracles of life and which differs greatly from the Mormon creation
< story.
<...
<Utah's predominant faith has also made its stance less predictable on
< other issues touching on religion in school ˜ notably school prayer.
< Enthusiasm for the idea has been muted or ambivalent, said Kirk
< Jowers, a professor of political science and director of the Hinckley
< Institute of Politics at the University of Utah. Professor Jowers
< pointed to the awareness among Mormons of their religion's minority
< status in the nation and world.
<
<"It was kind of a realization that if you push to have prayer in
< school, then outside of Utah, the prayer would not typically be a
< Mormon's prayer, so is that road you want go down?" Professor Jowers
< said.

Commentary:
<The Utah case is very special, in the same way that Utah is very
< special: if any state in the US could be considered a “theocracy,”
< it's Utah. Mormons control the state government and legislature and
< virtually all other governmental and social institutions. Despite
< this, they have generally resisted the temptation to intrude religion
< into politics. Voters in the state are generally quite conservative
< (voter registration is overwhelmingly Republican), but it would be
< difficult to pigeonhole them as the kind of conservative that toes
< the fundamentalist/creationist party line. True, one of their state
< senators, D. Chris Buttars (Republican) is clearly a creationist, but
< the Mormon mainstream is definitely not on the side of either
< creationism or “intelligent design.”
< ...
<Furthermore, as is pointed out in the article, Mormon theology
< deviates quite substantially from fundamentalist Christianity. As
< might be expected from the largest and most successful religion
< founded in 19th century America (in upstate New York, just a short
< drive from here, no less), Mormonism is both forward-looking and open
< to “new revelation.” Unlike the fundamentalist creationist
< Christians, therefore, most Mormons don't necessarily view the Bible
< (nor the Book of Mormon) as literal truth, nor do they have the
< innate fear of science and technology shared by most fundamentalists.

Note that the Mormon creation story is quite different from a literal
reading of Genesis. Trying to find it summarized, I found mostly
critiques. This one in particular is entertaining, though probably
rather seriously distorts a couple of the beliefs by the choice of
wording. See especially the mentions of Kolob.
http://www.i4m.com/think/lists/mormon_science.htm

Whoa!! I had no idea. Amazing, simply amazing...
I can see why they don't want to get entrained into the more
"orthodox" creationsist movement.
I wonder if Fred thinks these "theories" also should be discussed
in any public school where there is a significant Mormon constituency?...
Thanks for that.
-- cary
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah 03 Mar 2006 03:12:43 PM
(Cary Kittrell) wrote:

:|In article <fuhf02dfl0smu6to2623eo8tbn61qauqnr@4ax.com> Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> writes:
:|>

(Cary Kittrell) wrote:
:|>
:|> >In article <ttid02p0rgvpi2dclb1t9qdfuen2k7fhsg@4ax.com>
writes:
:|> >> Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah
:|> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/national/28utah.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
:|> >> New York Times - United States
:|> >> ... matter. A spokesman for Americans United for Separation of Church and
:|> >> State, Joe Conn, said Utah's vote would resonate. "If the ...
:|> >
:|> >
:|> >Hmmm....can anyone explain this to me, taken from the article
:|> >linked above?:
:|> >
:|> > Some Mormon legislators opposed the bill because they agreed with
:|> > Mr. Urquhart that science and religion should remain separate,
:|> > others because they thought intelligent design was not in keeping
:|> > with traditional Mormon belief.
:|> >
:|> >
:|> >It's that last part which puzzles me.
:|>
:|> Here's blog essay that might help. It starts from an earlier NYT
:|> article by the same reporter:
:|> http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2006/02/evolution-measure-splits-state.html
:|>
:|> Excerpts
:|> NYT:
:|> <He and other lawmakers say that part of the debate here is in fact
:|> < over what kind of religion would be buttressed by the legislation.
:|> < Although the Origins of Life bill, as it is formally known, does not
:|> < mention an alternative theory to evolution, some legislators say they
:|> < think that voting yes could be tantamount to supporting intelligent
:|> < design, which posits an undefined intelligence lurking behind the
:|> < miracles of life and which differs greatly from the Mormon creation
:|> < story.
:|> <...
:|> <Utah's predominant faith has also made its stance less predictable on
:|> < other issues touching on religion in school ˜ notably school prayer.
:|> < Enthusiasm for the idea has been muted or ambivalent, said Kirk
:|> < Jowers, a professor of political science and director of the Hinckley
:|> < Institute of Politics at the University of Utah. Professor Jowers
:|> < pointed to the awareness among Mormons of their religion's minority
:|> < status in the nation and world.
:|> <
:|> <"It was kind of a realization that if you push to have prayer in
:|> < school, then outside of Utah, the prayer would not typically be a
:|> < Mormon's prayer, so is that road you want go down?" Professor Jowers
:|> < said.
:|>
:|> Commentary:
:|> <The Utah case is very special, in the same way that Utah is very
:|> < special: if any state in the US could be considered a “theocracy,”
:|> < it's Utah. Mormons control the state government and legislature and
:|> < virtually all other governmental and social institutions. Despite
:|> < this, they have generally resisted the temptation to intrude religion
:|> < into politics. Voters in the state are generally quite conservative
:|> < (voter registration is overwhelmingly Republican), but it would be
:|> < difficult to pigeonhole them as the kind of conservative that toes
:|> < the fundamentalist/creationist party line. True, one of their state
:|> < senators, D. Chris Buttars (Republican) is clearly a creationist, but
:|> < the Mormon mainstream is definitely not on the side of either
:|> < creationism or “intelligent design.”
:|> < ...
:|> <Furthermore, as is pointed out in the article, Mormon theology
:|> < deviates quite substantially from fundamentalist Christianity. As
:|> < might be expected from the largest and most successful religion
:|> < founded in 19th century America (in upstate New York, just a short
:|> < drive from here, no less), Mormonism is both forward-looking and open
:|> < to “new revelation.” Unlike the fundamentalist creationist
:|> < Christians, therefore, most Mormons don't necessarily view the Bible
:|> < (nor the Book of Mormon) as literal truth, nor do they have the
:|> < innate fear of science and technology shared by most fundamentalists.
:|>
:|
:|
:|> Note that the Mormon creation story is quite different from a literal
:|> reading of Genesis. Trying to find it summarized, I found mostly
:|> critiques. This one in particular is entertaining, though probably
:|> rather seriously distorts a couple of the beliefs by the choice of
:|> wording. See especially the mentions of Kolob.
:|
:|
:|> http://www.i4m.com/think/lists/mormon_science.htm
:|
:|Whoa!! I had no idea. Amazing, simply amazing...
:|
:|I can see why they don't want to get entrained into the more
:|"orthodox" creationsist movement.
:|
:|I wonder if Fred thinks these "theories" also should be discussed
:|in any public school where there is a significant Mormon constituency?...
:|
:|
:|Thanks for that.
:|
:|

From a member of the
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
He is a MIT, type who also did a lot of religious study over the years
Comments from Ray Soller:
Mormons do not generally accept God as a magician who can create a
world out of "nothing." The orthodox Christian world defines this
concept as "Creatio Ex Nihilo," which implies that God is all
powerful, and only God is eternal. Consequently, all else has a
beginning and an end.
In glaring contrast, Mormons say that each individual has its own
intrinsic sense of eternal being, which they identify as
one's "intelligence." These intelligences are therefore co-eternal
with God, which, according to orthodox Christianity, is a heresy. In
this Mormon world-view God is much more like, as implied by the U S
Constitution, a God of Nature rather than anything proposed by
Orthodox Christian philosophy.
The difficulty with trying to pigeonhole a "Mormon" position on the
matter of Intelligent Design is that, on the one hand, Mormons feel
driven to blend in with christian culture, but still maintain its
unique Mormon theology that is very different from Christian Orthoxy
as defined by the Nicean Creed.

.
User: "Cary Kittrell"

Title: Re: Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah 06 Mar 2006 10:16:13 AM
In article <k8ch02lr6cespe08cmjr42hcsb4q4it3ot@4ax.com>
writes:

(Cary Kittrell) wrote:

:|In article <fuhf02dfl0smu6to2623eo8tbn61qauqnr@4ax.com> Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> writes:
:|>

(Cary Kittrell) wrote:
:|>
:|> >In article <ttid02p0rgvpi2dclb1t9qdfuen2k7fhsg@4ax.com>
writes:
:|> >> Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah
:|> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/national/28utah.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
:|> >> New York Times - United States
:|> >> ... matter. A spokesman for Americans United for Separation of Church and
:|> >> State, Joe Conn, said Utah's vote would resonate. "If the ...
:|> >
:|> >
:|> >Hmmm....can anyone explain this to me, taken from the article
:|> >linked above?:
:|> >
:|> > Some Mormon legislators opposed the bill because they agreed with
:|> > Mr. Urquhart that science and religion should remain separate,
:|> > others because they thought intelligent design was not in keeping
:|> > with traditional Mormon belief.
:|> >
:|> >
:|> >It's that last part which puzzles me.
:|>
:|> Here's blog essay that might help. It starts from an earlier NYT
:|> article by the same reporter:
:|> http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2006/02/evolution-measure-splits-state.html
:|>
:|> Excerpts
:|> NYT:
:|> <He and other lawmakers say that part of the debate here is in fact
:|> < over what kind of religion would be buttressed by the legislation.
:|> < Although the Origins of Life bill, as it is formally known, does not
:|> < mention an alternative theory to evolution, some legislators say they
:|> < think that voting yes could be tantamount to supporting intelligent
:|> < design, which posits an undefined intelligence lurking behind the
:|> < miracles of life and which differs greatly from the Mormon creation
:|> < story.
:|> <...
:|> <Utah's predominant faith has also made its stance less predictable on
:|> < other issues touching on religion in school ˜ notably school prayer.
:|> < Enthusiasm for the idea has been muted or ambivalent, said Kirk
:|> < Jowers, a professor of political science and director of the Hinckley
:|> < Institute of Politics at the University of Utah. Professor Jowers
:|> < pointed to the awareness among Mormons of their religion's minority
:|> < status in the nation and world.
:|> <
:|> <"It was kind of a realization that if you push to have prayer in
:|> < school, then outside of Utah, the prayer would not typically be a
:|> < Mormon's prayer, so is that road you want go down?" Professor Jowers
:|> < said.
:|>
:|> Commentary:
:|> <The Utah case is very special, in the same way that Utah is very
:|> < special: if any state in the US could be considered a “theocracy,”
:|> < it's Utah. Mormons control the state government and legislature and
:|> < virtually all other governmental and social institutions. Despite
:|> < this, they have generally resisted the temptation to intrude religion
:|> < into politics. Voters in the state are generally quite conservative
:|> < (voter registration is overwhelmingly Republican), but it would be
:|> < difficult to pigeonhole them as the kind of conservative that toes
:|> < the fundamentalist/creationist party line. True, one of their state
:|> < senators, D. Chris Buttars (Republican) is clearly a creationist, but
:|> < the Mormon mainstream is definitely not on the side of either
:|> < creationism or “intelligent design.”
:|> < ...
:|> <Furthermore, as is pointed out in the article, Mormon theology
:|> < deviates quite substantially from fundamentalist Christianity. As
:|> < might be expected from the largest and most successful religion
:|> < founded in 19th century America (in upstate New York, just a short
:|> < drive from here, no less), Mormonism is both forward-looking and open
:|> < to “new revelation.” Unlike the fundamentalist creationist
:|> < Christians, therefore, most Mormons don't necessarily view the Bible
:|> < (nor the Book of Mormon) as literal truth, nor do they have the
:|> < innate fear of science and technology shared by most fundamentalists.
:|>
:|
:|
:|> Note that the Mormon creation story is quite different from a literal
:|> reading of Genesis. Trying to find it summarized, I found mostly
:|> critiques. This one in particular is entertaining, though probably
:|> rather seriously distorts a couple of the beliefs by the choice of
:|> wording. See especially the mentions of Kolob.
:|
:|
:|> http://www.i4m.com/think/lists/mormon_science.htm
:|
:|Whoa!! I had no idea. Amazing, simply amazing...
:|
:|I can see why they don't want to get entrained into the more
:|"orthodox" creationsist movement.
:|
:|I wonder if Fred thinks these "theories" also should be discussed
:|in any public school where there is a significant Mormon constituency?...
:|
:|
:|Thanks for that.
:|
:|


From a member of the
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]


He is a MIT, type who also did a lot of religious study over the years

Comments from Ray Soller:

Mormons do not generally accept God as a magician who can create a
world out of "nothing." The orthodox Christian world defines this
concept as "Creatio Ex Nihilo," which implies that God is all
powerful, and only God is eternal. Consequently, all else has a
beginning and an end.

In glaring contrast, Mormons say that each individual has its own
intrinsic sense of eternal being, which they identify as
one's "intelligence." These intelligences are therefore co-eternal
with God, which, according to orthodox Christianity, is a heresy. In
this Mormon world-view God is much more like, as implied by the U S
Constitution, a God of Nature rather than anything proposed by
Orthodox Christian philosophy.

The difficulty with trying to pigeonhole a "Mormon" position on the
matter of Intelligent Design is that, on the one hand, Mormons feel
driven to blend in with christian culture, but still maintain its
unique Mormon theology that is very different from Christian Orthoxy
as defined by the Nicean Creed.

Very interesting. Thank you.
I wonder if Fred thinks this viewpoint should get equal discussion
time in classrooms with evolution and "orthodox" intelligent design.
-- cary
.

User: "=?UTF-8?q?Iosepa_Hawai=CA=BBi_Loa?="

Title: Re: Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah 04 Mar 2006 04:59:36 AM
Nossa! I can't believe the number of NGs this is going to.
As the resident LdS on alt.religion.christian, I'll address some of what
buckeye-elo posted.
On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 16:12:43
-0500, buckeye-elo wrote:

From a member of the
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members
from all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]

He is a MIT, type who also did a lot of religious study over the years

Comments from Ray Soller:

Mormons do not generally accept God as a magician who can create a world
out of "nothing." The orthodox Christian world defines this concept as
"Creatio Ex Nihilo," which implies that God is all powerful, and only
God is eternal. Consequently, all else has a beginning and an end.

In glaring contrast, Mormons say that each individual has its own
intrinsic sense of eternal being, which they identify as one's
"intelligence." These intelligences are therefore co-eternal with God,
which, according to orthodox Christianity, is a heresy. In this Mormon
world-view God is much more like, as implied by the U S Constitution, a
God of Nature rather than anything proposed by Orthodox Christian
philosophy.

This concept is so huge that it is hard to explain in a single post. It
would be much more productive, to merely point to the official site of the
Church aimed at new and potential members: http://www.mormon.org
The Nature of God
http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,791-1,00.html
FAQs (and answers!)
http://www.mormon.org/question/faq/category/0,8791,798-1,00.html
The LdS Plan of Salvation
http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,1294-1,00.html
Iosepa
--
Ua mau ke ea o ka ʻāina i ka pono.
:The life (sovereignty) of the land is perpetuated in (by) righteousness.
.






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Anti-Theistic Secularism:Worship of the God-State
 

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OLDER