"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote:

Bob LeChevalier wrote:

Fundies seem to think that he can create hurricanes, earthquakes,
diseases, homosexuality, you name it other "evil" in the world.

Hurricanes may be caused by hot air, but not that kind.

Ah. So here's the problem. I was responding to your comment that "The
BIBLE says god created satan with virtually the same powers as himself"
(emphasis mine). That's very different from what "fundies seem to
think."

The fundies think that every one of their beliefs is supported by a
literal reading of the Bible.

Ephesians 2:6-7 would seem to cover hurricanes.

I agree with you that many people
who conisder themselves religious Christians see Satan as immensely
powerful, almost (but not quite) on par with God. But they're not
getting it from the Bible.

They think they are, and probably could cite you chapter and verse to
support their belief.

A quick look on some random sites:
http://dianedew.com/satan.htm
<1) He has power (2 Thessalonians 2:9; Revelation 2:10),
<but his power is limited: Job 1:12; 2:6; Mark 1:34;
<5:12, 13; 1 Corinthians 10:13-17).
<
<(1) He has power (2 Thessalonians 2:9; Revelation 2:10),
<but his power is limited: Job 1:12; 2:6; Mark 1:34;
<5:12, 13; 1 Corinthians 10:13-17).
<
<5) Nevertheless, Satan can perform lying signs and wonders.
<Exodus 7:9-11; 8:17-19; Deuteronomy 13:1-5;
<Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22; 2 Thessalonians 2:9;
<Revelation 13:13, 14; 16:14; 19:20
<
<A. "Prince and power of the air." Ephesians 2:2
<B. "God of this age." 2 Corinthians 4:4
<C. "Prince of this world." John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11
<D. "Prince (ruler) of demons." Matthew 9:34; 12:24; Mark 9:34; Luke 11:15


http://www.cuttingedge.org/NEWS/n1050.html
<2) Ephesians 2:6-7, the Apostle Paul calls Satan the "Prince of the
< Power of the Air". The reference to "air" refers to the air
< surrounding this Earth. It is just another way of saying "Earth".
< Paul's picture here is that of Satan being the Absolute Dictator
< (Prince) of this Earth. The Apostle John also speaks of Satan with
< this title, in John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11)

<3) In Daniel, we see that Godly forces and Satanic forces are battling
< for control of the kings of the Earth (Chapter 10). Therefore, we
< know that Satan and his demonic host are actively, powerfully working
< through human agents, specifically human political leaders, to
< achieve their goals. We know that demons can physically possess
< humans, and that Satan himself entered into Judas, empowering him to
< betray Jesus Christ (Luke 22:3). Then, most importantly, we see that,
< at the End of the Age, during the reign of Antichrist, Satan and his
< demons possess the key human leaders of the world (Revelation
< 16:13-16).

<1) Daniel 10 Entire Chapter -- Time and space do not permit us to
< thoroughly cover this Scriptural account, but we encourage you to
< read it carefully. In synopsis, Daniel prayed for Godly understanding
< as to the events of Israel in the Latter Days. On the very day that
< Daniel prayed, God instructed one of His Heavenly angels to go
< personally to Daniel to deliver His answer. The angel immediately
< left Heaven to go to Earth, a journey that takes the blink of an eye.
< However, the angel did not get to Earth, or to Daniel at any rate,
< for three (3) weeks. The angel explained to Daniel that he had been
< held up by a demonic being whom the angel called "The Prince of the
< Kingdom of Persia". In other words, this Heavenly angel had been
< attacked by a most powerful demon, the demon assigned to influence
< the human King of Persia. This angel could not defeat this powerful
< demonic being on his own strength, so he had to call on Michael, the
< angel whom God had assigned to protect Israel. Thus, we see that some
< demonic beings are more powerful than some angelic beings.

All in all quite a cosmic level of power, though not unlimited.

To be able to affect every individual human being on a non-cosmic
level takes cosmic levels of omniscience and omnipotence.

Yes, well, there's no indication in the Bible that Satan actually does
that.

It seems that he has absolute dominion over the earth and over all who
are wicked. Since by "Original Sin", we are all wicked unless we are
saved by the grace of God, and the percentage of human beings that are
saved is relatively small (fundies are a small fraction of all
Christians, and Christians are a minority of the world's people), he
comes pretty close.

If you believe that the tempter in Eden is Satan (the Bible doesn't say
this,

Whose Bible? The Catholic Bible includes:
Wisdom of Solomon 2:24
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/wis002.htm#24

(I will admit that fundies, generally being Protestant, wouldn't
likely quote it, but New Testament writers clearly made use of it

<cf. Matt., xxvii, 42, 43, with Wis., ii, 13, 18; Rom., xi, 34, with Wis., ix, 13; Eph., vi, 13, 17, with Wis., v, 18, 19; Heb., i, 3, with Wis., vii, 26; etc
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15666a.htm

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days:
but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained
there with the kings of Persia.

Bob LeChevalier wrote:

Fundies seem to think that he can create hurricanes, earthquakes,
diseases, homosexuality, you name it other "evil" in the world.

Hurricanes may be caused by hot air, but not that kind.

Ah. So here's the problem. I was responding to your comment that "The
BIBLE says god created satan with virtually the same powers as himself"
(emphasis mine). That's very different from what "fundies seem to
think." The fundamentalist view of Satan (and, for that matter, the
popular view of Satan) has almost nothing to do with the very few
appearances of Satan in the Bible. I agree with you that many people
who conisder themselves religious Christians see Satan as immensely
powerful, almost (but not quite) on par with God. But they're not
getting it from the Bible.

To be able to affect every individual human being on a non-cosmic
level takes cosmic levels of omniscience and omnipotence.

Yes, well, there's no indication in the Bible that Satan actually does
that.

If you believe that the tempter in Eden is Satan (the Bible doesn't say
this, even though the word Satan appears elswhere in the Old Testament;
Genesis says the tempter was "the snake, a cunning ANIMAL," not a
demon, devil, or fallen angel), then he affected two human beings - in
the very ordinary sense of talking them into doing something unwise.
Nothing cosmic about that, human beings do it every day of the week. It
was God who decided that this event should "affect every individual
human being," by making the effects of Adam & Eve's actions heritable,
a completely arbitrary decision of the kind that God is so well known
for in the Bible. (Under ordinary circumstances people are punished for
their own crimes, not the crimes of ancestors who died before the
people in question were ever born.)

"Dominic Torrazzi" <DTorrazzi@home4.com> wrote in message
news:122qkui1s42dvb5@corp.supernews.com...

He could have done the whole thing in an instant.

And ...if He did...here it comes are you ready...would it look old?
If He made a man fully grown in an instant...here it comes...he'd
look...old..right?

So how do you know you weren't created yesterday as you were with all your
thoughts and memories making you think you were old?

A very good point, Dominic. I've often thought that God could have created
us a minute ago with all our memories intact. I'm not sure there's any way
of disproving it.

Thinking about it, we might not exist at all, but be memories in some other
person's brain or equivalent. Or I might be God myself, but helpless to
change the world because it has to run by the physical laws I created. Or I
am an experiment, and being watched all the time: I have always thought that
from being a child. I even suspected my own mum and dad being in on it. How
paranoid is that!!! It was comforting to see The Truman Show, which I
identified with. The ending is brilliant: running into the wall of the
dome: how symbolic is that?

Regards, Josh

And Midjis, you are right: Why did God take six days to fashion the
world? He could have done the whole thing in an instant.

And ...if He did...here it comes are you ready...would it look old?
If He made a man fully grown in an instant...here it comes...he'd
look...old..right?

Ladies and gentleman, thank you for your time. Now, to your amazement,
I will stick my cape over this dark void and speak the magic words...[...]