| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
| Date: |
30 Mar 2006 01:50:12 PM |
| Object: |
Atheist Magicians |
Ladies and gentleman, thank you for your time. Now, to your amazement,
I will stick my cape over this dark void and speak the magic
words...Ima braindead dope. And...Voila. The earth appears from
nowhere with no maker out of nothing.
And, yet, this magic is the only scientifically accepted origin belief
system in public schools. Go figure.
Kenny Clifton
http://www.christianjedi.com
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| User: "ZenIsWhen" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
31 Mar 2006 02:19:34 AM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143748212.000460.262380@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Ladies and gentleman, thank you for your time. Now, to your amazement,
I will stick my cape over this dark void and speak the magic
words...Ima braindead dope. And...Voila. The earth appears from
nowhere with no maker out of nothing.
And, yet, this magic is the only scientifically accepted origin belief
system in public schools. Go figure.
Bwahahaaaaaa............. ***** head dofus .... that's what religious zealots
calim GOD did!!!!
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| User: "Dominic Torrazzi" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
30 Mar 2006 03:55:47 PM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143748212.000460.262380@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Ladies and gentleman, thank you for your time. Now, to your amazement,
I will stick my cape over this dark void and speak the magic
words...Ima braindead dope. And...Voila. The earth appears from
nowhere with no maker out of nothing.
I'm sorry, but you that's creationism, not science.
And, yet, this magic is the only scientifically accepted origin belief
system in public schools. Go figure.
Just because you are ignorant of it does not make it magic.
Maybe to you it does.
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| User: "The_Sage" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
01 Apr 2006 10:52:26 PM |
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Reply to article by: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com>
Date written: 30 Mar 2006 11:50:12 -0800
MsgID:<1143748212.000460.262380@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Ladies and gentleman, thank you for your time. Now, to your amazement,
I will stick my cape over this dark void and speak the magic
words...Ima braindead dope. And...Voila. The earth appears from
nowhere with no maker out of nothing.
And, yet, this magic is the only scientifically accepted origin belief
system in public schools. Go figure.
You made a few typos. Here are the corrections...
Ladies and gentleman, thank you for your time. Now, to your amazement,
I will stick my cape over this dark void and speak the magic words...Ima
braindead dope. And...Voila. The completely invisible maker appears from nowhere
from nothing.
And, yet, this magic is the only accepted origin belief system in public
churches. Go figure.
The Sage
=============================================================
http://members.cox.net/the.sage/index.htm
"Little minds are interested in the extraordinary; great
minds in the commonplace"
-- Elbert Hubbard, ROYCROFT DICTIONARY AND BOOK OF EPIGRAMS
=============================================================
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
30 Mar 2006 02:41:00 PM |
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In article <1143748212.000460.262380@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> "Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> writes:
Ladies and gentleman, thank you for your time. Now, to your amazement,
I will stick my cape over this dark void and speak the magic
words...Ima braindead dope. And...Voila. The earth appears from
nowhere with no maker out of nothing.
And, yet, this magic is the only scientifically accepted origin belief
system in public schools. Go figure.
It's an interesting question. Let's eveb extend it a step further: did
God appear from nowhere, no One having made Him?
-- cary
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| User: "Gary Eickmeier" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
30 Mar 2006 09:02:58 PM |
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Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article <1143748212.000460.262380@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> "Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> writes:
Ladies and gentleman, thank you for your time. Now, to your amazement,
I will stick my cape over this dark void and speak the magic
words...Ima braindead dope. And...Voila. The earth appears from
nowhere with no maker out of nothing.
And, yet, this magic is the only scientifically accepted origin belief
system in public schools. Go figure.
It's an interesting question. Let's eveb extend it a step further: did
God appear from nowhere, no One having made Him?
No, he was always there. But here's an even more interesting question:
Before there was space, and a universe, and celestial bodies and all,
where would God have been? Doing what? God of what? I can't even begin
to get my head around that.
Gary Eickmeier
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
31 Mar 2006 01:27:44 AM |
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On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 13:50:12 -0600, Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote
(in article <1143748212.000460.262380@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>):
Ladies and gentleman, thank you for your time. Now, to your amazement,
I will stick my cape over this dark void and speak the magic
words...Ima braindead dope. And...Voila. The earth appears from
nowhere with no maker out of nothing.
And, yet, this magic is the only scientifically accepted origin belief
system in public schools. Go figure.
I figure that, without citations, you're
just lying again (or still, as the case may be).
Your strawman (from Kansas - there's poetic justice
here) was made by you out of whole cloth.
The main thing to realize about Kenneth Clifton is that he'll pontificate/lie
- do whatever he deems necessary - to "win".
Remember that with Young Clifton, it's not just about a bar
bet - it's about a whole way of life.
Gray Shockley
------------------------
In a many dark hour I've been thinkin' about this,
That Jesus Christ Was betrayed by a kiss;
But I can't think for you, You'll have to decide,
Whether Judas Iscariot Had God on his side.
- Bob Dylan
Kenny Clifton
http://www.christianjedi.com
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| User: "AcesLucky" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
30 Mar 2006 02:36:08 PM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:
Ladies and gentleman, thank you for your time. Now, to your amazement,
I will stick my cape over this dark void and speak the magic
words...Ima braindead dope. And...Voila. The earth appears from
nowhere with no maker out of nothing.
And, yet, this magic is the only scientifically accepted origin belief
system in public schools. Go figure.
Kenny Clifton
http://www.christianjedi.com
Hey, you goof-ball.
If that's what they're teaching you in Sunday School, it's no wonder you
don't have a clue.
Once again, for your own brain-dead edification...*something can't come
from nothing*...which means there was NEVER a time of absolute nothing.
And science doesn't claim the universe appeared from absolute nothing.
THAT is the claim of Creationists! They claim god came from nothing and
proceeded to create the universe from it.
So if you think its ludicrous for the earth to appear from nowhere
THAT'S EXACTLY THE PROPOSITION YOU TAKE WITH YOUR GOD. This means you
not only contradict yourself, but you utilize the same argument against
magic for the /support/ of your invisible god!
Christian Jedi, you say? More like Christian airhead. com
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| User: "Alric Knebel" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
31 Mar 2006 08:41:59 AM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:
Ladies and gentleman, thank you for your time. Now, to your amazement,
I will stick my cape over this dark void and speak the magic
words...Ima braindead dope. And...Voila. The earth appears from
nowhere with no maker out of nothing.
And, yet, this magic is the only scientifically accepted origin belief
system in public schools. Go figure.
Kenny Clifton
http://www.christianjedi.com
You're so stupid, you're entertaining to read. I wouldn't dream of
killfiling you.
--
Alric Knebel
http://www.ironeyefortress.com/C-SPAN_loon.html
http://www.ironeyefortress.com
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| User: "The Watch Dog" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
30 Mar 2006 08:06:56 PM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:
Ladies and gentleman, thank you for your time. Now, to your amazement,
I will stick my cape over this dark void and speak the magic
words...Ima braindead dope. And...Voila. The earth appears from
nowhere with no maker out of nothing.
And, yet, this magic is the only scientifically accepted origin belief
system in public schools. Go figure.
I was never taught this in school, and it is a grotesque - and
deliberate? - oversimplification of the current scientific theories
about the history of the universe.
Let's try this: Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you for your time. I
created beings with free will. I knew they were going to rebel against
me in a way I did not wish. I COULD have created beings with free will
who were NOT going to rebel against me in a way I did not wish. Why
didn't I? No idea whatsoever.
I am perfect and all-powerful, and yet the world I created is
imperfect, and has many features I do not approve of, and that I didn't
want. Why? No idea whatsoever.
I exist, but nothing ever created me. I have existed forever,
completely unchanging - and yet, at some specific time, I created the
world. Why that time, and not before or after (since I never changed,
and there wasn't anything else)? No idea whatsoever.
Ken, do you really think your model actually explains more things than
the scientific model? Only if you think "No idea whatsoever" is an
explanation....
There are advantages to your model, but they are spiritual advantages
to the person that believes it. (There are disadvantages, too.) There
are no scientific advantages to your model, which is to say it makes no
predictions whose accuracy can be observed by scientific means. That's
why your model is not science, and is not taught in a science class.
You don't seem to have a very firm grasp of what IS taught in a science
class.
Of course, you've said all this stuff before, and it has been answered
before. My opinion is that you're feeling disturbed by the fact that
your unfair double standards and hypocrisy have been made so clear
lately, and that you're responding by hurriedly throwing up a lot of
"people who don't think like me are idiots" posts as a smokescreen, and
to make yourself feel better.
Everybody's still waiting for some frank, honest answers about the
Christian and Biblical messages in the Narnia books, The Lord of the
Rings, and comic books, and why they are less "hidden" and involve less
"tricky, deceitful propaganda" than the X-Men movie. Until you answer
that, everything you write is suspect.
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| User: "Josh" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
31 Mar 2006 05:51:46 PM |
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"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1143770816.838507.165670@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Let's try this: Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you for your time. I
created beings with free will. I knew they were going to rebel against
me in a way I did not wish. I COULD have created beings with free will
who were NOT going to rebel against me in a way I did not wish. Why
didn't I? No idea whatsoever.
I am perfect and all-powerful, and yet the world I created is
imperfect, and has many features I do not approve of, and that I didn't
want. Why? No idea whatsoever.
I exist, but nothing ever created me. I have existed forever,
completely unchanging - and yet, at some specific time, I created the
world. Why that time, and not before or after (since I never changed,
and there wasn't anything else)? No idea whatsoever.
Some very sensible points there, Watch Dog. If I may summarise, why did God
create a world and then make it a sort of moral testing ground for just one
of the species on it?
Why not just create a few million beings in heaven to keep him company, and
all live happily ever after?
Of course, there is a simple explanation: Feeling badly done to, humans
invented God and the whole moral thing to try to make sense of their
surroundings and misfortune. Animals suffer too, but that doesn't seem to
matter!
regards, Josh
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| User: "Midjis" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
30 Mar 2006 02:03:56 PM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:
Ladies and gentleman, thank you for your time. Now, to your amazement,
I will stick my cape over this dark void and speak the magic
words...Ima braindead dope. And...Voila. The earth appears from
nowhere with no maker out of nothing.
And, yet, this magic is the only scientifically accepted origin belief
system in public schools. Go figure.
That is NOT what is taught in science. That is what is claimed by
Creationists, who cannot think outside their Biblical box.
Just because the universe did not appear by magic at the hands of God, it
does not follow that nothing caused it to appear.
While we are on the subject, can you as a Creationist explain why it took
an omnipotent God *six whole days* to fashion the world?
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
30 Mar 2006 02:07:41 PM |
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Midjis wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:
Ladies and gentleman, thank you for your time. Now, to your amazement,
I will stick my cape over this dark void and speak the magic
words...Ima braindead dope. And...Voila. The earth appears from
nowhere with no maker out of nothing.
And, yet, this magic is the only scientifically accepted origin belief
system in public schools. Go figure.
That is NOT what is taught in science. That is what is claimed by
Creationists, who cannot think outside their Biblical box.
Just because the universe did not appear by magic at the hands of God, it
does not follow that nothing caused it to appear.
So, it did have a start and something made it? What was it made of?
Kenny Clifton
http://www.christianjedi.com
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| User: "Midjis" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
31 Mar 2006 07:33:39 AM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:
That is NOT what is taught in science. That is what is claimed by
Creationists, who cannot think outside their Biblical box.
Just because the universe did not appear by magic at the hands of
God, it does not follow that nothing caused it to appear.
So, it did have a start and something made it? What was it made of?
Of course the universe had a start. All things have a start, just as all
things come to an end. Yet these, too, are concepts you would no doubt
reject. This, of course, does not stop them being facts.
Even today we can detect the echoes of the universe's explosive beginning
- yet we do not truly know what caused it to come into being. If God is
part of the picture, then It is to be found here. And if God is behind
the laws and the processes that govern our universe, the mechanisms that
led to the formation of our solar system and our Earth, along with all
the stars in the sky, then so be it. Was the beginning of the universe
the result of a natural process elsewhere? Was it the intended result of
a deliberate act by an extra-universal intelligence? Was it the
accidental result of such an act? Science, unlike Creationism, is
willing to say that it does not yet know. But it continues to seek the
answers, whereas Creationism merely claims it already has them all.
What certainly did NOT happen was that God created the Earth in six days,
placed man and woman, added a serpent to ensure the disobedience of man
and woman, then threatened to punish man and woman and all their
descendants for doing what God can only have wanted them to do in the
first place. What did NOT happen was that an omnipotent God wanted to
wipe out sin by flooding us out with a flood that required more water
than exists on Earth - but failed to do so. What did NOT happen was that
an all-powerful God found it necessary to manifest in human form and
suffer a meaningless sacrifice (if He is immortal He could not truly be
sacrificed) in order to satisfy the rules about sin and salvation that He
had created and that He could re-write at any time.
There are too many logical flaws in these stories for them to be
considered anything other than myth. It may be that you cannot accept
that - you may be someone who consider 'myth' a synonym for 'lie'. Some
people recognise the true value of myth, however.
And you have snipped the question I asked: If God is omnipotent, why did
it take Him six entire days to create the Earth?
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| User: "Josh" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
30 Mar 2006 06:34:51 PM |
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Readers:
If the universe began with a big bang from a dot, then that's pretty
mysterious, unless you are an astrophysicist and have some sort of clue the
rest of us can't get our heads round, in the same way as me not
understanding the insides of my computer. But because I don't understand
the insides of my computer I don't say that there must be a god inside!
What is this this God thing that is supposed to have created the universe?
Where is he? Where does he keep his memories? What is he made of? How
does he communicate? (Well, he doesn't seem to like communicating, or he
could talk directly to our brains, I suppose, which would be fascinating.)
I go for mystery, not God: the mystery will be answered eventually by logic.
And Midjis, you are right: Why did God take six days to fashion the world?
He could have done the whole thing in an instant.
"Midjis" <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9796D6F6BD888axrmxkertsjlpjivdf@216.196.109.145...
Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:
Ladies and gentleman, thank you for your time. Now, to your amazement,
I will stick my cape over this dark void and speak the magic
words...Ima braindead dope. And...Voila. The earth appears from
nowhere with no maker out of nothing.
And, yet, this magic is the only scientifically accepted origin belief
system in public schools. Go figure.
That is NOT what is taught in science. That is what is claimed by
Creationists, who cannot think outside their Biblical box.
Just because the universe did not appear by magic at the hands of God, it
does not follow that nothing caused it to appear.
While we are on the subject, can you as a Creationist explain why it took
an omnipotent God *six whole days* to fashion the world?
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| User: "Nullen Void" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
31 Mar 2006 11:51:09 AM |
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In article <X0udnWsGCbiB5LHZSa8jmw@karoo.co.uk>, "Josh"
<jh@jillywoods.ABCkaroo.co.uk> wrote:
While we are on the subject, can you as a Creationist explain why it took
an omnipotent God *six whole days* to fashion the world?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because that's the way He wanted to do it.
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| User: "Midjis" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
31 Mar 2006 12:13:41 PM |
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Nullen Void wrote:
While we are on the subject, can you as a Creationist explain why
it took an omnipotent God *six whole days* to fashion the world?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Because that's the way He wanted to do it.
Precisely. An easy answer, and one that can be employed (as it has been
above by Kenny) to get around any logical inconsistency without requiring
any actual thought.
The ability to justify a refusal to think seems to be the basic foundation
of many religions.
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
30 Mar 2006 07:12:58 PM |
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Josh wrote:
Readers:
If the universe began with a big bang from a dot, then that's pretty
mysterious, unless you are an astrophysicist and have some sort of clue the
rest of us can't get our heads round, in the same way as me not
understanding the insides of my computer. But because I don't understand
the insides of my computer I don't say that there must be a god inside!
What is this this God thing that is supposed to have created the universe?
Where is he? Where does he keep his memories? What is he made of? How
does he communicate? (Well, he doesn't seem to like communicating, or he
could talk directly to our brains, I suppose, which would be fascinating.)
I go for mystery, not God: the mystery will be answered eventually by logic.
And Midjis, you are right: Why did God take six days to fashion the world?
He could have done the whole thing in an instant.
And ...if He did...here it comes are you ready...would it look old?
If He made a man fully grown in an instant...here it comes...he'd
look...old..right?
Kenny Clifton
http://www.christianjedi.com
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| User: "Dominic Torrazzi" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
31 Mar 2006 10:07:41 AM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143767578.311971.41100@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Josh wrote:
Readers:
If the universe began with a big bang from a dot, then that's pretty
mysterious, unless you are an astrophysicist and have some sort of clue
the
rest of us can't get our heads round, in the same way as me not
understanding the insides of my computer. But because I don't
understand
the insides of my computer I don't say that there must be a god inside!
What is this this God thing that is supposed to have created the
universe?
Where is he? Where does he keep his memories? What is he made of? How
does he communicate? (Well, he doesn't seem to like communicating, or he
could talk directly to our brains, I suppose, which would be
fascinating.)
I go for mystery, not God: the mystery will be answered eventually by
logic.
And Midjis, you are right: Why did God take six days to fashion the
world?
He could have done the whole thing in an instant.
And ...if He did...here it comes are you ready...would it look old?
If He made a man fully grown in an instant...here it comes...he'd
look...old..right?
So how do you know you weren't created yesterday as you were with all your
thoughts and memories making you think you were old?
See?
Anyone can do it.
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| User: "Josh" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
31 Mar 2006 05:38:19 PM |
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"Dominic Torrazzi" <DTorrazzi@home4.com> wrote in message
news:122qkui1s42dvb5@corp.supernews.com...
He could have done the whole thing in an instant.
And ...if He did...here it comes are you ready...would it look old?
If He made a man fully grown in an instant...here it comes...he'd
look...old..right?
So how do you know you weren't created yesterday as you were with all your
thoughts and memories making you think you were old?
A very good point, Dominic. I've often thought that God could have created
us a minute ago with all our memories intact. I'm not sure there's any way
of disproving it.
Thinking about it, we might not exist at all, but be memories in some other
person's brain or equivalent. Or I might be God myself, but helpless to
change the world because it has to run by the physical laws I created. Or I
am an experiment, and being watched all the time: I have always thought that
from being a child. I even suspected my own mum and dad being in on it. How
paranoid is that!!! It was comforting to see The Truman Show, which I
identified with. The ending is brilliant: running into the wall of the
dome: how symbolic is that?
Regards, Josh
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| User: "Dominic Torrazzi" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
31 Mar 2006 05:56:24 PM |
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"Josh" <jh@jillywoods.ABCkaroo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:kOacnUx2q_L2ILDZSa8jmw@karoo.co.uk...
"Dominic Torrazzi" <DTorrazzi@home4.com> wrote in message
news:122qkui1s42dvb5@corp.supernews.com...
He could have done the whole thing in an instant.
And ...if He did...here it comes are you ready...would it look old?
If He made a man fully grown in an instant...here it comes...he'd
look...old..right?
So how do you know you weren't created yesterday as you were with all
your
thoughts and memories making you think you were old?
A very good point, Dominic. I've often thought that God could have
created
us a minute ago with all our memories intact. I'm not sure there's any
way
of disproving it.
Thinking about it, we might not exist at all, but be memories in some
other
person's brain or equivalent.
Yes, I've always wondered why we needed to be created at all, since god is
omniscient, all powerfull, and transcends time, why bother creating all this
when it could just be thought and done with.
Or I might be God myself, but helpless to
change the world because it has to run by the physical laws I created. Or
I
am an experiment, and being watched all the time: I have always thought
that
from being a child. I even suspected my own mum and dad being in on it.
How
paranoid is that!!! It was comforting to see The Truman Show, which I
identified with. The ending is brilliant: running into the wall of the
dome: how symbolic is that?
How about this. The bible says god created satan with virtually the same
powers as himself before he created us. Maybe we are just an involved test
for satan, to see how god's shining light deals with his own fall and
redemption.
We are all so self centered to think it's all about us.
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| User: "The Watch Dog" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
31 Mar 2006 10:05:16 PM |
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Dominic Torrazzi wrote:
How about this. The bible says god created satan with virtually the same
powers as himself before he created us.
No, it doesn't. Where did you get that "with virtually the same powers
as himself" stuff?
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| User: "Dominic Torrazzi" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
01 Apr 2006 12:19:58 AM |
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"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1143864316.165024.178680@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dominic Torrazzi wrote:
How about this. The bible says god created satan with virtually the same
powers as himself before he created us.
No, it doesn't. Where did you get that "with virtually the same powers
as himself" stuff?
What don't you understand about the word virtually?
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| User: "The Watch Dog" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
01 Apr 2006 12:59:05 AM |
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Dominic Torrazzi wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1143864316.165024.178680@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dominic Torrazzi wrote:
How about this. The bible says god created satan with virtually the same
powers as himself before he created us.
No, it doesn't. Where did you get that "with virtually the same powers
as himself" stuff?
What don't you understand about the word virtually?
Why, does it mean "not"? The Satan of the Bible (both Old and New
Testaments) demonstrates no power to create anything, much less a
universe. He doesn't bring inanimate dust to life. No pillars of smoke
by day and fire by night. Mainly what he does is... talk. Cunningly.
Oh, there's some indication that he whips some winds around. And, with
God's explicit permission, he makes the life of one man (Job) a living
Hell. But his powers seem neither strong nor broad. He does almost NONE
of the kind of stuff that God does, and what he does do is on an
exceedingly non-cosmic level.
Maybe that's "virtually the same" to you, but I don't think most people
would see it that way.
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| User: "Dominic Torrazzi" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
01 Apr 2006 10:16:57 AM |
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"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1143874745.803169.18020@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Dominic Torrazzi wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1143864316.165024.178680@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dominic Torrazzi wrote:
How about this. The bible says god created satan with virtually the
same
powers as himself before he created us.
No, it doesn't. Where did you get that "with virtually the same powers
as himself" stuff?
What don't you understand about the word virtually?
Why, does it mean "not"? The Satan of the Bible (both Old and New
Testaments) demonstrates no power to create anything, much less a
universe. He doesn't bring inanimate dust to life. No pillars of smoke
by day and fire by night. Mainly what he does is... talk. Cunningly.
Yet the fundies assign him the power to destroy, to create things on earth
that trick us to stray from god (think all the earthly evidence for
evolution as one example), as well as disease, evil, and everything they
don't want to attribute to their god.
Evil would seem to be as powerful as good at times.
Oh, there's some indication that he whips some winds around. And, with
God's explicit permission, he makes the life of one man (Job) a living
Hell. But his powers seem neither strong nor broad. He does almost NONE
of the kind of stuff that God does, and what he does do is on an
exceedingly non-cosmic level.
Maybe that's "virtually the same" to you, but I don't think most people
would see it that way.
Well, you can quibble all you want. Substitute your definition into my
simple speculation and it doesn't change it
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| User: "The Watch Dog" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
01 Apr 2006 05:56:29 PM |
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Dominic Torrazzi wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1143874745.803169.18020@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Dominic Torrazzi wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1143864316.165024.178680@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dominic Torrazzi wrote:
How about this. The bible says god created satan with virtually the
same
powers as himself before he created us.
No, it doesn't. Where did you get that "with virtually the same powers
as himself" stuff?
What don't you understand about the word virtually?
Why, does it mean "not"? The Satan of the Bible (both Old and New
Testaments) demonstrates no power to create anything, much less a
universe. He doesn't bring inanimate dust to life. No pillars of smoke
by day and fire by night. Mainly what he does is... talk. Cunningly.
Yet the fundies assign him the power to destroy, to create things on earth
that trick us to stray from god (think all the earthly evidence for
evolution as one example), as well as disease, evil, and everything they
don't want to attribute to their god.
Yes. But none of that is in the Bible.
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| User: "Dominic Torrazzi" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
02 Apr 2006 01:22:55 PM |
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"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1143935789.047861.220560@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Dominic Torrazzi wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1143874745.803169.18020@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Dominic Torrazzi wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1143864316.165024.178680@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dominic Torrazzi wrote:
How about this. The bible says god created satan with virtually the
same
powers as himself before he created us.
No, it doesn't. Where did you get that "with virtually the same
powers
as himself" stuff?
What don't you understand about the word virtually?
Why, does it mean "not"? The Satan of the Bible (both Old and New
Testaments) demonstrates no power to create anything, much less a
universe. He doesn't bring inanimate dust to life. No pillars of smoke
by day and fire by night. Mainly what he does is... talk. Cunningly.
Yet the fundies assign him the power to destroy, to create things on
earth
that trick us to stray from god (think all the earthly evidence for
evolution as one example), as well as disease, evil, and everything they
don't want to attribute to their god.
Yes. But none of that is in the Bible.
As an agnostic, I take the bible as a compilation of allegory. Biblical
literalists take the bible as literal and supposedly as the source of all
their religious beliefs. Rather than hunt down every reference to every
belief they have I just give them the benefit of the doubt that they can
find a reference in the bible that explains them. So since they give so much
power to satan to alter the world and so little necessity or ability to
their god to stop satan I just assume they could find a biblical passage to
support this. I'm really not saying the bible supports my take on satan, but
I am suggesting that it might support that of literalists.
Does this help?
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| User: "Josh" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
01 Apr 2006 04:51:32 PM |
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Hello Dominic and others
Isn't all this argument about Satan just silly, seeing as he cannot possibly
exist. A loving God would never consider his creation even. And where is
he? In some volcano somewhere? If God had anything about him, he would
have a flash of inspiration, wipe everybody's slate clean, welcome all
through the pearly gates and have a party that would be the talk of the
galaxy for billennia to come.
Now typing that was fun.
Regards to all
Josh
"Dominic Torrazzi" <DTorrazzi@home4.com> wrote in message
news:122t9rvb2dqo4ef@corp.supernews.com...
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1143874745.803169.18020@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Dominic Torrazzi wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1143864316.165024.178680@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dominic Torrazzi wrote:
How about this. The bible says god created satan with virtually the
same
powers as himself before he created us.
No, it doesn't. Where did you get that "with virtually the same powers
as himself" stuff?
What don't you understand about the word virtually?
Why, does it mean "not"? The Satan of the Bible (both Old and New
Testaments) demonstrates no power to create anything, much less a
universe. He doesn't bring inanimate dust to life. No pillars of smoke
by day and fire by night. Mainly what he does is... talk. Cunningly.
Yet the fundies assign him the power to destroy, to create things on earth
that trick us to stray from god (think all the earthly evidence for
evolution as one example), as well as disease, evil, and everything they
don't want to attribute to their god.
Evil would seem to be as powerful as good at times.
Oh, there's some indication that he whips some winds around. And, with
God's explicit permission, he makes the life of one man (Job) a living
Hell. But his powers seem neither strong nor broad. He does almost NONE
of the kind of stuff that God does, and what he does do is on an
exceedingly non-cosmic level.
Maybe that's "virtually the same" to you, but I don't think most people
would see it that way.
Well, you can quibble all you want. Substitute your definition into my
simple speculation and it doesn't change it
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
01 Apr 2006 04:54:49 AM |
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"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote:
Dominic Torrazzi wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1143864316.165024.178680@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dominic Torrazzi wrote:
How about this. The bible says god created satan with virtually the same
powers as himself before he created us.
No, it doesn't. Where did you get that "with virtually the same powers
as himself" stuff?
What don't you understand about the word virtually?
Why, does it mean "not"? The Satan of the Bible (both Old and New
Testaments) demonstrates no power to create anything, much less a
universe. He doesn't bring inanimate dust to life. No pillars of smoke
by day and fire by night. Mainly what he does is... talk.
Fundies seem to think that he can create hurricanes, earthquakes,
diseases, homosexuality, you name it other "evil" in the world.
Hurricanes may be caused by hot air, but not that kind.
Cunningly.
Oh, there's some indication that he whips some winds around. And, with
God's explicit permission, he makes the life of one man (Job) a living
Hell. But his powers seem neither strong nor broad. He does almost NONE
of the kind of stuff that God does, and what he does do is on an
exceedingly non-cosmic level.
To be able to affect every individual human being on a non-cosmic
level takes cosmic levels of omniscience and omnipotence.
lojbab
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| User: "The Watch Dog" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
01 Apr 2006 05:54:55 PM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Fundies seem to think that he can create hurricanes, earthquakes,
diseases, homosexuality, you name it other "evil" in the world.
Hurricanes may be caused by hot air, but not that kind.
Ah. So here's the problem. I was responding to your comment that "The
BIBLE says god created satan with virtually the same powers as himself"
(emphasis mine). That's very different from what "fundies seem to
think." The fundamentalist view of Satan (and, for that matter, the
popular view of Satan) has almost nothing to do with the very few
appearances of Satan in the Bible. I agree with you that many people
who conisder themselves religious Christians see Satan as immensely
powerful, almost (but not quite) on par with God. But they're not
getting it from the Bible.
To be able to affect every individual human being on a non-cosmic
level takes cosmic levels of omniscience and omnipotence.
Yes, well, there's no indication in the Bible that Satan actually does
that.
If you believe that the tempter in Eden is Satan (the Bible doesn't say
this, even though the word Satan appears elswhere in the Old Testament;
Genesis says the tempter was "the snake, a cunning ANIMAL," not a
demon, devil, or fallen angel), then he affected two human beings - in
the very ordinary sense of talking them into doing something unwise.
Nothing cosmic about that, human beings do it every day of the week. It
was God who decided that this event should "affect every individual
human being," by making the effects of Adam & Eve's actions heritable,
a completely arbitrary decision of the kind that God is so well known
for in the Bible. (Under ordinary circumstances people are punished for
their own crimes, not the crimes of ancestors who died before the
people in question were ever born.)
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Magicians |
02 Apr 2006 01:58:44 AM |
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"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Fundies seem to think that he can create hurricanes, earthquakes,
diseases, homosexuality, you name it other "evil" in the world.
Hurricanes may be caused by hot air, but not that kind.
Ah. So here's the problem. I was responding to your comment that "The
BIBLE says god created satan with virtually the same powers as himself"
(emphasis mine). That's very different from what "fundies seem to
think."
The fundies think that every one of their beliefs is supported by a
literal reading of the Bible.
Ephesians 2:6-7 would seem to cover hurricanes.
I agree with you that many people
who conisder themselves religious Christians see Satan as immensely
powerful, almost (but not quite) on par with God. But they're not
getting it from the Bible.
They think they are, and probably could cite you chapter and verse to
support their belief.
A quick look on some random sites:
http://dianedew.com/satan.htm
<1) He has power (2 Thessalonians 2:9; Revelation 2:10),
<but his power is limited: Job 1:12; 2:6; Mark 1:34;
<5:12, 13; 1 Corinthians 10:13-17).
<
<(1) He has power (2 Thessalonians 2:9; Revelation 2:10),
<but his power is limited: Job 1:12; 2:6; Mark 1:34;
<5:12, 13; 1 Corinthians 10:13-17).
<
<5) Nevertheless, Satan can perform lying signs and wonders.
<Exodus 7:9-11; 8:17-19; Deuteronomy 13:1-5;
<Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22; 2 Thessalonians 2:9;
<Revelation 13:13, 14; 16:14; 19:20
<
<A. "Prince and power of the air." Ephesians 2:2
<B. "God of this age." 2 Corinthians 4:4
<C. "Prince of this world." John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11
<D. "Prince (ruler) of demons." Matthew 9:34; 12:24; Mark 9:34; Luke 11:15
http://www.cuttingedge.org/NEWS/n1050.html
<2) Ephesians 2:6-7, the Apostle Paul calls Satan the "Prince of the
< Power of the Air". The reference to "air" refers to the air
< surrounding this Earth. It is just another way of saying "Earth".
< Paul's picture here is that of Satan being the Absolute Dictator
< (Prince) of this Earth. The Apostle John also speaks of Satan with
< this title, in John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11)
<3) In Daniel, we see that Godly forces and Satanic forces are battling
< for control of the kings of the Earth (Chapter 10). Therefore, we
< know that Satan and his demonic host are actively, powerfully working
< through human agents, specifically human political leaders, to
< achieve their goals. We know that demons can physically possess
< humans, and that Satan himself entered into Judas, empowering him to
< betray Jesus Christ (Luke 22:3). Then, most importantly, we see that,
< at the End of the Age, during the reign of Antichrist, Satan and his
< demons possess the key human leaders of the world (Revelation
< 16:13-16).
<1) Daniel 10 Entire Chapter -- Time and space do not permit us to
< thoroughly cover this Scriptural account, but we encourage you to
< read it carefully. In synopsis, Daniel prayed for Godly understanding
< as to the events of Israel in the Latter Days. On the very day that
< Daniel prayed, God instructed one of His Heavenly angels to go
< personally to Daniel to deliver His answer. The angel immediately
< left Heaven to go to Earth, a journey that takes the blink of an eye.
< However, the angel did not get to Earth, or to Daniel at any rate,
< for three (3) weeks. The angel explained to Daniel that he had been
< held up by a demonic being whom the angel called "The Prince of the
< Kingdom of Persia". In other words, this Heavenly angel had been
< attacked by a most powerful demon, the demon assigned to influence
< the human King of Persia. This angel could not defeat this powerful
< demonic being on his own strength, so he had to call on Michael, the
< angel whom God had assigned to protect Israel. Thus, we see that some
< demonic beings are more powerful than some angelic beings.
All in all quite a cosmic level of power, though not unlimited.
To be able to affect every individual human being on a non-cosmic
level takes cosmic levels of omniscience and omnipotence.
Yes, well, there's no indication in the Bible that Satan actually does
that.
It seems that he has absolute dominion over the earth and over all who
are wicked. Since by "Original Sin", we are all wicked unless we are
saved by the grace of God, and the percentage of human beings that are
saved is relatively small (fundies are a small fraction of all
Christians, and Christians are a minority of the world's people), he
comes pretty close.
If you believe that the tempter in Eden is Satan (the Bible doesn't say
this,
Whose Bible? The Catholic Bible includes:
Wisdom of Solomon 2:24
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/wis002.htm#24
(I will admit that fundies, generally being Protestant, wouldn't
likely quote it, but New Testament writers clearly made use of it
<cf. Matt., xxvii, 42, 43, with Wis., ii, 13, 18; Rom., xi, 34, with Wis., ix, 13; Eph., vi, 13, 17, with Wis., v, 18, 19; Heb., i, 3, with Wis., vii, 26; etc
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15666a.htm
lojbab
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