Athiests misuse First Amendment



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Topic: Sociology > Education
User: ""
Date: 23 Nov 2005 08:45:50 AM
Object: Athiests misuse First Amendment
http://badgerherald.com/oped/2005/09/16/athiests_misuse_firs.php
Athiests misuse First Amendment
by Darryn Beckstrom
Friday, September 16, 2005
I have a polite request for a handful of lawyers in Madison: please keep
your politics within the confines of your own city. Last week, the
University of Minnesota announced in addition to withdrawing from the
Minnesota Faith/Health Consortium earlier this summer, it has ceased the
creation of courses addressing the relationship between faith and healing
after the Madison-based Freedom from Religion Foundation filed a lawsuit
against the institution in federal court.
This recent action by a group of Madison-bred attorneys affirms the notion
that the interpretation of a “wall of separation” between church and state
is becoming increasingly distorted.
The First Amendment does nothing more than prohibit laws “respecting an
establishment of religion.” Regrettably, many anti-religious organizations
have interpreted this clause — contrary to the U.S. Supreme Court — to read
that no public entity shall mention religion in any form.
The Foundation not only sought the University’s immediate withdrawal from
the Consortium, they also demanded the research institution halt the
development of the Faith/Health Clinical Leadership program. The program,
in conjunction with Luther Seminary and Fairview Health Services, would
have provided clinical courses to graduate students interested in
researching the intersections between faith and healing.
Ironically, the Foundation sued the University before the sequence of
courses was developed and offered to students. With the courses still on
the drawing board, though, the Foundation naively inferred such classes
were endorsing religion. Why would such an organization do this? It’s quite
obvious: when atheists see the word “religion,” they immediately cry foul.
Unfortunately, the University succumbed to the pressures of a few sue-happy
Americans. Instead of dragging the institution through the financial
constraints often present with litigation, the University cowered like a
child facing a schoolyard bully and conceded to the demands of the
Foundation.
If the legal counsel of the University had more gumption to pursue this
matter, they would have realized that both the law and academic freedom
were on their side.
Studying the correlation between faith and healing — as the proposed
courses intended to do — is indeed constitutional. The Foundation, on the
other hand, believes public universities should avoid the discussion of the
“r” word completely. Nonetheless, there is a difference between studying
the role of religion in American life and endorsing a particular religion.
Atheists can’t seem to accept the distinction.
If it had seen the inside of a courtroom, the Foundation’s substandard
legal argument would have been quashed by established case law. To
determine whether the University violated the establishment clause by
involvement in the Consortium and offering of such classes, the federal
court would have applied the test set forth in Lemon v. Kurtzman. If the
Court applied the Lemon test, it would have found the actions of the
University indeed had a secular purpose, they did not have the primary
effect of advancing or inhibiting religion and they did not foster an
excessive government entanglement with religion. Simply put, the
University’s actions were constitutional.
The constitutionality of the courses aside, the organization also
encroaches on academic freedom in a university setting. The Foundation
considers itself a group of “freethinkers.” Unfortunately, these
freethinkers prefer to censor intellectual thought that doesn’t comport to
their ideals. In the end, intellectual diversity has been forced to take a
backseat while atheists continue to force their way to the helm of
curricular control.
An overarching question raised by the recent actions of the Freedom from
Religion Foundation is somewhat obvious: will this litigation ever end? The
establishment clause of the First Amendment is one of the most litigated
provisions of the Constitution. And the Foundation doesn’t seem to be
letting up on the citizens of Minnesota any time soon. The organization is
now attacking Gov. Pawlenty’s proposal to create a Minnesota Council of
Faith-based Initiatives to better assist religious organizations in
providing social services to the citizens in the state.
Atheists and those organizations targeting what they erroneously believe to
be actions of the Religious Right need to realize they have been using the
wrong forum for their assault on religion. They have been using our
nation’s courtrooms to influence nothing more than what amounts to public
policy. Sometimes they find a judge who is sympathetic to their politics,
sometimes they don’t. Nonetheless, the pages of the Constitution should not
be a place to fight hollow legal arguments. The halls of our state
legislatures and Congress would be more appropriate.
The Constitution bars the “establishment of religion,” and studying its
role in American life is hardly “establishing” anything, except for the
right of students to study a question of importance and interest to the
medical community.
Darryn Beckstrom is a doctoral student in the Department of Political
Science and a second-year MPA candidate in the La Follette School of Public
Affairs.
**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.

User: ""

Title: Faith and Healing 24 Nov 2005 09:36:28 AM
wrote:

http://badgerherald.com/oped/2005/09/16/athiests_misuse_firs.php

[...] Last week, the University of Minnesota announced [...] it has ceased the
creation of courses addressing the relationship between faith and healing
after the Madison-based Freedom from Religion Foundation filed a lawsuit
against the institution in federal court. [...]

I have no problem with the cancellation of courses "addressing the
relationship between faith and healing." This is not rational
scientific study. The fact that occasional miraculous recoveries occur
is very, very interesting, but there is no rational reason to believe
it was faith, prayer, or the hand of God that yielded the result.
.
User: "Colin Day"

Title: Re: Faith and Healing 28 Nov 2005 04:42:47 PM
wrote:

buckeye-elo@nospam.net wrote:

http://badgerherald.com/oped/2005/09/16/athiests_misuse_firs.php

[...] Last week, the University of Minnesota announced [...] it has ceased the
creation of courses addressing the relationship between faith and healing
after the Madison-based Freedom from Religion Foundation filed a lawsuit
against the institution in federal court. [...]


Madison-based? James or Wisconsin?



I have no problem with the cancellation of courses "addressing the
relationship between faith and healing." This is not rational
scientific study. The fact that occasional miraculous recoveries occur
is very, very interesting, but there is no rational reason to believe
it was faith, prayer, or the hand of God that yielded the result.

I would object to calling the recoveries miraculous. Unexplained, yes, but
not miraculous.
Colin Day aa #1500
.


User: "The_Sage"

Title: Re: Athiests misuse First Amendment 23 Nov 2005 10:45:09 PM

Reply to article by:


Date written: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:45:50 -0500
MsgID:<l409o1hl0fd9umg2cvbked5mrdodrvdglo@4ax.com>
http://badgerherald.com/oped/2005/09/16/athiests_misuse_firs.php
Athiests misuse First Amendment
by Darryn Beckstrom
Friday, September 16, 2005
The First Amendment does nothing more than prohibit laws “respecting an
establishment of religion.” Regrettably, many anti-religious organizations
have interpreted this clause — contrary to the U.S. Supreme Court — to read
that no public entity shall mention religion in any form.

That is a blatent lie.

Unfortunately, the University succumbed to the pressures of a few sue-happy
Americans. Instead of dragging the institution through the financial
constraints often present with litigation, the University cowered like a
child facing a schoolyard bully and conceded to the demands of the
Foundation.

Why are all of you so afraid of Atheists? Atheists only account for less than 5%
of the entire population, how can they weild such incredible power over your
entire religious organization? They can't. You are just being a sour grape.

If the legal counsel of the University had more gumption to pursue this
matter, they would have realized that both the law and academic freedom
were on their side.

So a very small minority of people fooled the entire country? If that were true,
I would have great respect for Atheists -- they can do things 95% of the rest of
the population cannot do.

Studying the correlation between faith and healing — as the proposed
courses intended to do — is indeed constitutional.

Not even close. The Consortium was designed to promote faith because there was a
correlation between faith and healing, and not to promote the study of the
correlation between faith and healing.

The Foundation, on the
other hand, believes public universities should avoid the discussion of the
“r” word completely. Nonetheless, there is a difference between studying
the role of religion in American life and endorsing a particular religion.
Atheists can’t seem to accept the distinction.

It wasn't Atheists that protested the Faith/Health Consortium, it was the
Freedom from Religion Foundation Inc. You can't seem to accept the distinction.
No one is saying that people shouldn't practice religion, just that no one has a
right to make their religion a public matter. Keep religion in the home and in
the church. Keep religion out of education and politics. Keep in-your-face
religion out of our faces. That is entirely fair.
The Sage
=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage
"Careful when you cast your devil out of you lest you cast
out the best thing in you." -Nietzsche
=============================================================
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Athiests misuse First Amendment 24 Nov 2005 08:14:13 AM
The_Sage <The_Sage@msn.com> wrote:

:|>Reply to article by:


:|>Date written: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:45:50 -0500
:|>MsgID:<l409o1hl0fd9umg2cvbked5mrdodrvdglo@4ax.com>
:|
:|>http://badgerherald.com/oped/2005/09/16/athiests_misuse_firs.php
:|>Athiests misuse First Amendment
:|
:|>by Darryn Beckstrom
:|>Friday, September 16, 2005
:|
:|>The First Amendment does nothing more than prohibit laws “respecting an
:|>establishment of religion.” Regrettably, many anti-religious organizations
:|>have interpreted this clause — contrary to the U.S. Supreme Court — to read
:|>that no public entity shall mention religion in any form.
:|
:|That is a blatent lie.
:|
:|>Unfortunately, the University succumbed to the pressures of a few sue-happy
:|>Americans. Instead of dragging the institution through the financial
:|>constraints often present with litigation, the University cowered like a
:|>child facing a schoolyard bully and conceded to the demands of the
:|>Foundation.
:|
:|Why are all of you so afraid of Atheists? Atheists only account for less than 5%
:|of the entire population, how can they weild such incredible power over your
:|entire religious organization? They can't. You are just being a sour grape.

Who is this you you are refferng to ?
The author of the arricle probably doesn't read this newsgroup or even
UseNet.
**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
User: "The_Sage"

Title: Re: Athiests misuse First Amendment 26 Nov 2005 12:38:27 AM

Reply to article by:


Date written: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:14:13 -0500
MsgID:<pjibo11jndvi74gd8hgsojclanai1e3od5@4ax.com>

:|>http://badgerherald.com/oped/2005/09/16/athiests_misuse_firs.php
:|>Athiests misuse First Amendment
:|>by Darryn Beckstrom
:|>Friday, September 16, 2005
:|>The First Amendment does nothing more than prohibit laws “respecting an
:|>establishment of religion.” Regrettably, many anti-religious organizations
:|>have interpreted this clause — contrary to the U.S. Supreme Court — to read
:|>that no public entity shall mention religion in any form.
:|That is a blatent lie.
:|>Unfortunately, the University succumbed to the pressures of a few sue-happy
:|>Americans. Instead of dragging the institution through the financial
:|>constraints often present with litigation, the University cowered like a
:|>child facing a schoolyard bully and conceded to the demands of the
:|>Foundation.
:|Why are all of you so afraid of Atheists? Atheists only account for less than 5%
:|of the entire population, how can they weild such incredible power over your
:|entire religious organization? They can't. You are just being a sour grape.

Who is this you you are refferng to?

That author of the post I was replying to...who else could it be?

The author of the arricle probably doesn't read this newsgroup or even
UseNet.

"Probably" means you really don't know. Let's not talk about what you don't know
but about what you do know.

**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]

None of this nonsense proves your claim that many anti-religious organizations
have interpreted separation of church and State to read that no public entity
shall mention religion in any form. That was your blatent lie.

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************

Bull. The founding fathers of the USA believe that blacks were not even human
and women where even lower than blacks. Let's thank God the Consitution isn't
interpreted exactly how it was originally intended to mean.
The Sage
=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage
"Careful when you cast your devil out of you lest you cast
out the best thing in you." -Nietzsche
=============================================================
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Athiests misuse First Amendment 28 Nov 2005 05:14:02 AM
The_Sage <The_Sage@msn.com> wrote:

:|>Reply to article by:


:|>Date written: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:14:13 -0500
:|>MsgID:<pjibo11jndvi74gd8hgsojclanai1e3od5@4ax.com>
:|
:|>>:|>http://badgerherald.com/oped/2005/09/16/athiests_misuse_firs.php
:|>>:|>Athiests misuse First Amendment
:|
:|>>:|>by Darryn Beckstrom
:|>>:|>Friday, September 16, 2005
:|
:|>>:|>The First Amendment does nothing more than prohibit laws “respecting an
:|>>:|>establishment of religion.” Regrettably, many anti-religious organizations
:|>>:|>have interpreted this clause — contrary to the U.S. Supreme Court — to read
:|>>:|>that no public entity shall mention religion in any form.
:|
:|>>:|That is a blatent lie.
:|
:|>>:|>Unfortunately, the University succumbed to the pressures of a few sue-happy
:|>>:|>Americans. Instead of dragging the institution through the financial
:|>>:|>constraints often present with litigation, the University cowered like a
:|>>:|>child facing a schoolyard bully and conceded to the demands of the
:|>>:|>Foundation.
:|
:|>>:|Why are all of you so afraid of Atheists? Atheists only account for less than 5%
:|>>:|of the entire population, how can they weild such incredible power over your
:|>>:|entire religious organization? They can't. You are just being a sour grape.
:|
:|>Who is this you you are refferng to?
:|
:|That author of the post I was replying to...who else could it be?
:|
:|>The author of the arricle probably doesn't read this newsgroup or even
:|>UseNet.
:|
:|"Probably" means you really don't know. Let's not talk about what you don't know
:|but about what you do know.

My mym you got embarrassed and now tryig to savwe face.
I will go out on a limb and say the author of ther article does not read
these newsgroups.
There, happy how?
However, you can actually enter your comments after the article and maybe
she does read that
http://badgerherald.com/oped/2005/09/16/athiests_misuse_firs.php
Athiests misuse First Amendment
by Darryn Beckstrom
Friday, September 16, 2005
At the very bottom of the article there is a section called
Feedback
and you can reply there.
see how helpful I am
**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
User: "The_Sage"

Title: Re: Athiests misuse First Amendment 28 Nov 2005 07:40:34 PM

Reply to article by:


Date written: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 06:14:02 -0500
MsgID:<gjplo113mjd46an94efsh4cmq1b1k3hcj9@4ax.com>

:|>>:|>http://badgerherald.com/oped/2005/09/16/athiests_misuse_firs.php
:|>>:|>Athiests misuse First Amendment
:|>>:|>by Darryn Beckstrom
:|>>:|>Friday, September 16, 2005
:|>>:|>The First Amendment does nothing more than prohibit laws “respecting an
:|>>:|>establishment of religion.” Regrettably, many anti-religious organizations
:|>>:|>have interpreted this clause — contrary to the U.S. Supreme Court — to read
:|>>:|>that no public entity shall mention religion in any form.
:|>>:|That is a blatent lie.
:|>>:|>Unfortunately, the University succumbed to the pressures of a few sue-happy
:|>>:|>Americans. Instead of dragging the institution through the financial
:|>>:|>constraints often present with litigation, the University cowered like a
:|>>:|>child facing a schoolyard bully and conceded to the demands of the
:|>>:|>Foundation.
:|>>:|Why are all of you so afraid of Atheists? Atheists only account for less than 5%
:|>>:|of the entire population, how can they weild such incredible power over your
:|>>:|entire religious organization? They can't. You are just being a sour grape.
:|>Who is this you you are refferng to?
:|That author of the post I was replying to...who else could it be?
:|>The author of the arricle probably doesn't read this newsgroup or even
:|>UseNet.
:|"Probably" means you really don't know. Let's not talk about what you don't know
:|but about what you do know.

My mym you got embarrassed and now tryig to savwe face.

My mym, you are wrong again.

I will go out on a limb and say the author of ther article does not read
these newsgroups.

Who cares? All that matters is you are wrong. Again.

There, happy how?

Yep.

However, you can actually enter your comments after the article and maybe
she does read that

I would rather enter my comments here since I am responding to your post and not
hers.

http://badgerherald.com/oped/2005/09/16/athiests_misuse_firs.php
Athiests misuse First Amendment
by Darryn Beckstrom
Friday, September 16, 2005
At the very bottom of the article there is a section called
Feedback and you can reply there.
see how helpful I am

I can see how you are cowardly trying avoiding to have to post an intelligent
reply on a topic that you are incapable of defending on your own.

**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

Been there; done that; now what? It's all opinionated crap instead of logic and
facts. Case in point...

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************

Bull. The founding fathers of the USA believe that blacks were not even human
and women where even lower than blacks. Let's thank God the Consitution isn't
interpreted exactly how it was originally intended to mean.
The Sage
=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage
"Careful when you cast your devil out of you lest you cast
out the best thing in you." -Nietzsche
=============================================================
.


User: "sue_doe_cy_ants"

Title: sage, is it? 27 Nov 2005 10:33:43 AM
The_Sage wrote:

Reply to article by:


Date written: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:14:13 -0500
MsgID:<pjibo11jndvi74gd8hgsojclanai1e3od5@4ax.com>

http://badgerherald.com/oped/2005/09/16/athiests_misuse_firs.php
Athiests misuse First Amendment

by Darryn Beckstrom
Friday, September 16, 2005

The First Amendment does nothing more than prohibit laws "respecting an
establishment of religion." Regrettably, many anti-religious organizat=

ions

have interpreted this clause - contrary to the U.S. Supreme Court - to=

read

that no public entity shall mention religion in any form.

That is a blatent lie.
entire religious organization? They can't.
You are just being a sour grape.


Who is this you you are refferng to?


That author of the post I was replying to
...who else could it be?

The author of the arricle probably doesn't
read this newsgroup or even UseNet.


"Probably" means you really don't know.
Let's not talk about what you don't know
but about what you do know.

not
just any sage
is it, but
THE SAGE?
Today's Clue:
although i have to go out on a limb here,
and not just stick to what i know,
there is an infinitesimal probability
that the originator of this thread,
buckeye.
is also the author of this piece posted.
maybe if you ceased interjecting commentary,
it would be easier to notice the tag at the post's top
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF
http://badgerherald.com/oped/2005/09/16/athiests_misuse_firs.php
=D8=D8=D8=D8 Athiests misuse First Amendment
=D8=D8=D8=D8 by Darryn Beckstrom
=D8=D8=D8=D8 Friday, September 16, 2005
_____________________________________________
although i've never actually met buckeye,
nor engaged in social posting,
i doubt buckeyer's real name is Darryn Beckstrom.
If you wish to address the author,
maybe a more efficacious methodology
would be to visit the url listed above,
and message using the form on the webpage.
--
i am confused by your choice of a nick.
is it animal sage as in
brayknee and asstoot;
or plant sage as in
salviating at the bell;
or maybe an admixture of the two:
as in vegelant?
.




User: "Gray Shockley"

Title: Re: Athiests misuse First Amendment 23 Nov 2005 02:42:29 PM
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:45:50 -0600,
wrote:

http://badgerherald.com/oped/2005/09/16/athiests_misuse_firs.php

Athiests misuse First Amendment


by Darryn Beckstrom
Friday, September 16, 2005

I have a polite request for a handful of lawyers in Madison: please keep
your politics within the confines of your own city. Last week, the
University of Minnesota announced in addition to withdrawing from the
Minnesota Faith/Health Consortium earlier this summer, it has ceased the
creation of courses addressing the relationship between faith and healing
after the Madison-based Freedom from Religion Foundation filed a lawsuit
against the institution in federal court.

It could be an interesting study but not with a co-sponsor that is
best labeled as a "special interest group".
I've seen a couple of "miraculous cures". One of them was a
16-year-old boy whose parents had taken him to three doctors in
three cities. On all three, there was no referral; all were
"independent" and none of the doctors was aware of any other
diagnoses.
The kid had less than two months to live and the cancer was
inoperative and wide spread.
A year later, two of the doctors claimed they had misdiagnosed the
disease; the third - quite a bit older than the other two - simply
called it a "miracle" and not the first one he had ever seen.
I met the kid about two years after he was "cured' (up ta Putney,
Vermont at a "coffee house" (coffee, tea and folk music - 1966).
There was no doubt in the kid's mind that he had cured himself
because of his faith.
Re-read my .sig line.
Gray Shockley
--------------------------
Now my own suspicion is that the
Universe is not only queerer than
we suppose, but queerer than
we can suppose.
- J. B. S. Haldane

This recent action by a group of Madison-bred attorneys affirms the notion
that the interpretation of a “wall of separation” between church and state
is becoming increasingly distorted.

The First Amendment does nothing more than prohibit laws “respecting an
establishment of religion.” Regrettably, many anti-religious organizations
have interpreted this clause — contrary to the U.S. Supreme Court — to read
that no public entity shall mention religion in any form.

The Foundation not only sought the University’s immediate withdrawal from
the Consortium, they also demanded the research institution halt the
development of the Faith/Health Clinical Leadership program. The program,
in conjunction with Luther Seminary and Fairview Health Services, would
have provided clinical courses to graduate students interested in
researching the intersections between faith and healing.

Ironically, the Foundation sued the University before the sequence of
courses was developed and offered to students. With the courses still on
the drawing board, though, the Foundation naively inferred such classes
were endorsing religion. Why would such an organization do this? It’s quite
obvious: when atheists see the word “religion,” they immediately cry foul.

Unfortunately, the University succumbed to the pressures of a few sue-happy
Americans. Instead of dragging the institution through the financial
constraints often present with litigation, the University cowered like a
child facing a schoolyard bully and conceded to the demands of the
Foundation.

If the legal counsel of the University had more gumption to pursue this
matter, they would have realized that both the law and academic freedom
were on their side.

Studying the correlation between faith and healing — as the proposed
courses intended to do — is indeed constitutional. The Foundation, on the
other hand, believes public universities should avoid the discussion of the
“r” word completely. Nonetheless, there is a difference between studying
the role of religion in American life and endorsing a particular religion.

Atheists can’t seem to accept the distinction.

If it had seen the inside of a courtroom, the Foundation’s substandard
legal argument would have been quashed by established case law. To
determine whether the University violated the establishment clause by
involvement in the Consortium and offering of such classes, the federal
court would have applied the test set forth in Lemon v. Kurtzman. If the
Court applied the Lemon test, it would have found the actions of the
University indeed had a secular purpose, they did not have the primary
effect of advancing or inhibiting religion and they did not foster an
excessive government entanglement with religion. Simply put, the
University’s actions were constitutional.

The constitutionality of the courses aside, the organization also
encroaches on academic freedom in a university setting. The Foundation
considers itself a group of “freethinkers.” Unfortunately, these
freethinkers prefer to censor intellectual thought that doesn’t comport to
their ideals. In the end, intellectual diversity has been forced to take a
backseat while atheists continue to force their way to the helm of
curricular control.

An overarching question raised by the recent actions of the Freedom from
Religion Foundation is somewhat obvious: will this litigation ever end? The
establishment clause of the First Amendment is one of the most litigated
provisions of the Constitution. And the Foundation doesn’t seem to be
letting up on the citizens of Minnesota any time soon. The organization is
now attacking Gov. Pawlenty’s proposal to create a Minnesota Council of
Faith-based Initiatives to better assist religious organizations in
providing social services to the citizens in the state.

Atheists and those organizations targeting what they erroneously believe to
be actions of the Religious Right need to realize they have been using the
wrong forum for their assault on religion. They have been using our
nation’s courtrooms to influence nothing more than what amounts to public
policy. Sometimes they find a judge who is sympathetic to their politics,
sometimes they don’t. Nonetheless, the pages of the Constitution should not
be a place to fight hollow legal arguments. The halls of our state
legislatures and Congress would be more appropriate.

The Constitution bars the “establishment of religion,” and studying its
role in American life is hardly “establishing” anything, except for the
right of students to study a question of importance and interest to the
medical community.

Darryn Beckstrom is a doctoral student in the Department of Political
Science and a second-year MPA candidate in the La Follette School of Public
Affairs.

**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education

You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************



.
User: ""

Title: Re: Athiests misuse First Amendment 24 Nov 2005 08:02:25 AM
Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com> wrote:

:|On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:45:50 -0600,

wrote:
:|
:|> http://badgerherald.com/oped/2005/09/16/athiests_misuse_firs.php
:|>
:|> Athiests misuse First Amendment
:|>
:|>
:|> by Darryn Beckstrom
:|> Friday, September 16, 2005
:|>
:|> I have a polite request for a handful of lawyers in Madison: please keep
:|> your politics within the confines of your own city. Last week, the
:|> University of Minnesota announced in addition to withdrawing from the
:|> Minnesota Faith/Health Consortium earlier this summer, it has ceased the
:|> creation of courses addressing the relationship between faith and healing
:|> after the Madison-based Freedom from Religion Foundation filed a lawsuit
:|> against the institution in federal court.
:|
:|
:|It could be an interesting study but not with a co-sponsor that is
:|best labeled as a "special interest group".
:|
:|
:|I've seen a couple of "miraculous cures". One of them was a
:|16-year-old boy whose parents had taken him to three doctors in
:|three cities. On all three, there was no referral; all were
:|"independent" and none of the doctors was aware of any other
:|diagnoses.
:|
:|The kid had less than two months to live and the cancer was
:|inoperative and wide spread.
:|
:|A year later, two of the doctors claimed they had misdiagnosed the
:|disease; the third - quite a bit older than the other two - simply
:|called it a "miracle" and not the first one he had ever seen.
:|
:|I met the kid about two years after he was "cured' (up ta Putney,
:|Vermont at a "coffee house" (coffee, tea and folk music - 1966).
:|
:|There was no doubt in the kid's mind that he had cured himself
:|because of his faith.
:|
:|
:|Re-read my .sig line.
:|
:|
:|Gray Shockley
:|--------------------------
:|Now my own suspicion is that the
:|Universe is not only queerer than
:|we suppose, but queerer than
:|we can suppose.
:| - J. B. S. Haldane

I agree totally
Which is why I find the religious side which claims to know the truth, to
know what is, to be bull and the other side that claims to know the
truth, to know what isn't to be bull too.
Until such a time, if ever, mankind knows all there is to know, no one
knows for certain what is and what isn't.
I don't see any difference between the believer who blasts the non believer
or the non believer who blasts the believer
**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
..
.



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