| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
| Date: |
10 Sep 2007 07:46:56 AM |
| Object: |
Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
Here's a question that seems to get lost in the debate over religion
in government. Was the Bill of Rights added to give the government
power or the people power? Wasn't it demanded by the states to
PROTECT people from the government's power? It was. So, how is it
that the 1st Amendment is suddenly supposed to exist to give the
Government power over religion? Can we extend that, then, to give the
government power over speech, assembly, and press?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
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| User: "Roger" |
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| Title: Re: Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
11 Sep 2007 01:22:23 AM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189428416.597233.14050@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Here's a question that seems to get lost in the debate over religion
in government. Was the Bill of Rights added to give the government
power or the people power? Wasn't it demanded by the states to
PROTECT people from the government's power? It was. So, how is it
that the 1st Amendment is suddenly supposed to exist to give the
Government power over religion? Can we extend that, then, to give the
government power over speech, assembly, and press?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Here's a concept completely foreign and confusing to you religious types:
BOTH.
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| User: "Bert Hyman" |
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| Title: Re: Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
10 Sep 2007 07:49:28 AM |
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(Wide Eyed in Wonder) wrote in
news:1189428416.597233.14050@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
So, how is it that the 1st Amendment is suddenly supposed to exist
to give the Government power over religion?
Hamilton warned about this in Federalist 84:
"But a minute detail of particular rights is certainly far less
applicable to a Constitution like that under consideration, which is
merely intended to regulate the general political interests of the
nation, than to a constitution which has the regulation of every
species of personal and private concerns."
"I go further, and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to
the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary
in the proposed Constitution, but would even be dangerous. They would
contain various exceptions to powers not granted; and, on this very
account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were
granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is
no power to do?"
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |
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| User: "John" |
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| Title: Re: Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
11 Sep 2007 08:26:29 AM |
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On Sep 10, 8:46 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Here's a question that seems to get lost in the debate over religion
in government. Was the Bill of Rights added to give the government
power or the people power? Wasn't it demanded by the states to
PROTECT people from the government's power? It was. So, how is it
that the 1st Amendment is suddenly supposed to exist to give the
Government power over religion? Can we extend that, then, to give the
government power over speech, assembly, and press?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Kenny, Kenny, Kenny...
Why do you insist on trying to force your religion on us? The 1st
amendment only says that "Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
What that means--and I'll try and use small words so you can
understand them--is that Congress will not establish a religion nor
will it forbid anyone from attending a religion. There were religions
that were so-called "State" religions in the 1800's after the
Constitution was ratified. These were supported by State taxes. The
only power that the Government has over religion is what religion
alllows it to have. It's a weakness in the religion, not a government
power grab. Must be weakness in your religion that you allow it to
bow down before the Government.
As for the other things, the government only has as much power as we
allow it to have. Unfortunately, we have allowed the government to
have power over us to protect us from the boogeymen loose in the
world. Time for a change. Get government out of religion and
religion out of Government.
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
11 Sep 2007 08:32:39 AM |
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On Sep 11, 8:26 am, John <dahlgren.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 10, 8:46 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Here's a question that seems to get lost in the debate over religion
in government. Was the Bill of Rights added to give the government
power or the people power? Wasn't it demanded by the states to
PROTECT people from the government's power? It was. So, how is it
that the 1st Amendment is suddenly supposed to exist to give the
Government power over religion? Can we extend that, then, to give the
government power over speech, assembly, and press?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Kenny, Kenny, Kenny...
Why do you insist on trying to force your religion on us? The 1st
amendment only says that "Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
What that means--and I'll try and use small words so you can
understand them--is that Congress will not establish a religion nor
will it forbid anyone from attending a religion. There were religions
that were so-called "State" religions in the 1800's after the
Constitution was ratified. These were supported by State taxes. The
only power that the Government has over religion is what religion
alllows it to have. It's a weakness in the religion, not a government
power grab. Must be weakness in your religion that you allow it to
bow down before the Government.
As for the other things, the government only has as much power as we
allow it to have. Unfortunately, we have allowed the government to
have power over us to protect us from the boogeymen loose in the
world. Time for a change. Get government out of religion and
religion out of Government.
You ignored the question. Was the Bill of Rights created to give the
government power over the rights of people? Was the 1st Amendment
created to give the government power over speech, press, or assembly.
NO? Then, why religion?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
11 Sep 2007 11:59:42 AM |
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In article <1189517559.852965.305340@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> writes:
On Sep 11, 8:26 am, John <dahlgren.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 10, 8:46 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Here's a question that seems to get lost in the debate over religion
in government. Was the Bill of Rights added to give the government
power or the people power? Wasn't it demanded by the states to
PROTECT people from the government's power? It was. So, how is it
that the 1st Amendment is suddenly supposed to exist to give the
Government power over religion? Can we extend that, then, to give the
government power over speech, assembly, and press?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Kenny, Kenny, Kenny...
Why do you insist on trying to force your religion on us? The 1st
amendment only says that "Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
What that means--and I'll try and use small words so you can
understand them--is that Congress will not establish a religion nor
will it forbid anyone from attending a religion. There were religions
that were so-called "State" religions in the 1800's after the
Constitution was ratified. These were supported by State taxes. The
only power that the Government has over religion is what religion
alllows it to have. It's a weakness in the religion, not a government
power grab. Must be weakness in your religion that you allow it to
bow down before the Government.
As for the other things, the government only has as much power as we
allow it to have. Unfortunately, we have allowed the government to
have power over us to protect us from the boogeymen loose in the
world. Time for a change. Get government out of religion and
religion out of Government.
You ignored the question. Was the Bill of Rights created to give the
government power over the rights of people? Was the 1st Amendment
created to give the government power over speech, press, or assembly.
NO? Then, why religion?
To prevent the government from sponsoring my religion at your kids
using your tax dollars.
Any objections?
-- cary
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
11 Sep 2007 03:50:44 PM |
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On Sep 11, 11:59 am, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1189517559.852965.305...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Sep 11, 8:26 am, John <dahlgren.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 10, 8:46 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Here's a question that seems to get lost in the debate over religion
in government. Was the Bill of Rights added to give the government
power or the people power? Wasn't it demanded by the states to
PROTECT people from the government's power? It was. So, how is it
that the 1st Amendment is suddenly supposed to exist to give the
Government power over religion? Can we extend that, then, to give the
government power over speech, assembly, and press?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Kenny, Kenny, Kenny...
Why do you insist on trying to force your religion on us? The 1st
amendment only says that "Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
What that means--and I'll try and use small words so you can
understand them--is that Congress will not establish a religion nor
will it forbid anyone from attending a religion. There were religions
that were so-called "State" religions in the 1800's after the
Constitution was ratified. These were supported by State taxes. The
only power that the Government has over religion is what religion
alllows it to have. It's a weakness in the religion, not a government
power grab. Must be weakness in your religion that you allow it to
bow down before the Government.
As for the other things, the government only has as much power as we
allow it to have. Unfortunately, we have allowed the government to
have power over us to protect us from the boogeymen loose in the
world. Time for a change. Get government out of religion and
religion out of Government.
You ignored the question. Was the Bill of Rights created to give the
government power over the rights of people? Was the 1st Amendment
created to give the government power over speech, press, or assembly.
NO? Then, why religion?
To prevent the government from sponsoring my religion at your kids
using your tax dollars.
Any objections?
-- cary
So, we can assume the 1st Amendment gives the government power over
speech, press, and assembly in your view...got it.
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
11 Sep 2007 04:15:01 PM |
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In article <1189543844.703165.308700@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> writes:
On Sep 11, 11:59 am, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1189517559.852965.305...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Sep 11, 8:26 am, John <dahlgren.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 10, 8:46 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Here's a question that seems to get lost in the debate over religion
in government. Was the Bill of Rights added to give the government
power or the people power? Wasn't it demanded by the states to
PROTECT people from the government's power? It was. So, how is it
that the 1st Amendment is suddenly supposed to exist to give the
Government power over religion? Can we extend that, then, to give the
government power over speech, assembly, and press?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Kenny, Kenny, Kenny...
Why do you insist on trying to force your religion on us? The 1st
amendment only says that "Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
What that means--and I'll try and use small words so you can
understand them--is that Congress will not establish a religion nor
will it forbid anyone from attending a religion. There were religions
that were so-called "State" religions in the 1800's after the
Constitution was ratified. These were supported by State taxes. The
only power that the Government has over religion is what religion
alllows it to have. It's a weakness in the religion, not a government
power grab. Must be weakness in your religion that you allow it to
bow down before the Government.
As for the other things, the government only has as much power as we
allow it to have. Unfortunately, we have allowed the government to
have power over us to protect us from the boogeymen loose in the
world. Time for a change. Get government out of religion and
religion out of Government.
You ignored the question. Was the Bill of Rights created to give the
government power over the rights of people? Was the 1st Amendment
created to give the government power over speech, press, or assembly.
NO? Then, why religion?
To prevent the government from sponsoring my religion at your kids
using your tax dollars.
Any objections?
-- cary
So, we can assume the 1st Amendment gives the government power over
speech, press, and assembly in your view...got it.
Actually, you don't got it. No great surprise there.
But I AM curious, given that "what a fool believes, a wise man
has to follow" -- what part of "To prevent the government from
sponsoring my religion" did you jaw-droppingly misinterpret
as being about increasing the government's power to meddle with religion?
-- cary
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
11 Sep 2007 10:39:09 PM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
So, we can assume the 1st Amendment gives the government power over
speech, press, and assembly in your view...got it.
You can not so assume.
Furthermore, the 1st amendment treats religion distinctly from the
other matters, having TWO clauses about religion that balance each
other. Government can not prohibit free exercise, but government
cannot respect an establishment of religion. But government CAN
respect an "establishment of speech" (Congress does this all the time;
subsidized political campaigns also qualify), or "the press" (Voice of
America) or "assembly" (elections and caucuses).
Religion is the only one of the rights that offers a *demonstrated*
threat to our government system, if establishments are supported.
lojbab
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| User: "John" |
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| Title: Re: Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
11 Sep 2007 12:51:55 PM |
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On Sep 11, 9:32 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 11, 8:26 am, John <dahlgren.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 10, 8:46 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Here's a question that seems to get lost in the debate over religion
in government. Was the Bill of Rights added to give the government
power or the people power? Wasn't it demanded by the states to
PROTECT people from the government's power? It was. So, how is it
that the 1st Amendment is suddenly supposed to exist to give the
Government power over religion? Can we extend that, then, to give the
government power over speech, assembly, and press?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Kenny, Kenny, Kenny...
Why do you insist on trying to force your religion on us? The 1st
amendment only says that "Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
What that means--and I'll try and use small words so you can
understand them--is that Congress will not establish a religion nor
will it forbid anyone from attending a religion. There were religions
that were so-called "State" religions in the 1800's after the
Constitution was ratified. These were supported by State taxes. The
only power that the Government has over religion is what religion
alllows it to have. It's a weakness in the religion, not a government
power grab. Must be weakness in your religion that you allow it to
bow down before the Government.
As for the other things, the government only has as much power as we
allow it to have. Unfortunately, we have allowed the government to
have power over us to protect us from the boogeymen loose in the
world. Time for a change. Get government out of religion and
religion out of Government.
You ignored the question. Was the Bill of Rights created to give the
government power over the rights of people? Was the 1st Amendment
created to give the government power over speech, press, or assembly.
NO? Then, why religion?
I answered the question. The Bill of Rights was created to give power
to the people. The 1st amendment was written to give the people the
power of the freedom to worship (or not worship as they so choose)
their own religion as it was written to give the people to say what
they want (within limits), congregate with who they want (frequently
abridged by local police), freedom from censorship in the press
(unless done by the press themselves to keep from pissing off the
powers that be) etc.
Why do you say the Bill of Rights was created to give Government the
power over Religion? Prove your point. Show us why you think that.
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
10 Sep 2007 11:04:02 AM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
Here's a question that seems to get lost in the debate over religion
in government. Was the Bill of Rights added to give the government
power or the people power?
It was given to protect people from the government, and specifically
from people in the government like YOU who would abuse government
power.
So, how is it that the 1st Amendment is suddenly supposed to exist to give the
Government power over religion?
The government has no power over religion.
The thing it prevents is religion having power over government, which
is a more common and insidious threat.
lojbab
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
11 Sep 2007 08:06:55 AM |
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On Sep 10, 11:04 am, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Here's a question that seems to get lost in the debate over religion
in government. Was the Bill of Rights added to give the government
power or the people power?
It was given to protect people from the government, and specifically
from people in the government like YOU who would abuse government
power.
So, how is it that the 1st Amendment is suddenly supposed to exist to give the
Government power over religion?
The government has no power over religion.
The thing it prevents is religion having power over government, which
is a more common and insidious threat.
lojbab
And, apparently, a private, Christian group getting a government grant
(voucher) becomes....The GOVERNMENT...right? Otherwise, how does
secular money going to private schools constitute a restriction on
religion IN government? Can we extend this to anyone that gets a
small business grant or pell grant? Are they the government?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
11 Sep 2007 11:58:11 AM |
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In article <1189516015.600887.226800@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> writes:
On Sep 10, 11:04 am, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Here's a question that seems to get lost in the debate over religion
in government. Was the Bill of Rights added to give the government
power or the people power?
It was given to protect people from the government, and specifically
from people in the government like YOU who would abuse government
power.
So, how is it that the 1st Amendment is suddenly supposed to exist to give the
Government power over religion?
The government has no power over religion.
The thing it prevents is religion having power over government, which
is a more common and insidious threat.
lojbab
And, apparently, a private, Christian group getting a government grant
(voucher) becomes....The GOVERNMENT...right?
Wrong.
It does not become the government.
It becomes a religious agency which has been given special treatment
by the government.
And that's a no-no.
-- cary
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
11 Sep 2007 02:50:52 PM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 10, 11:04 am, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Here's a question that seems to get lost in the debate over religion
in government. Was the Bill of Rights added to give the government
power or the people power?
It was given to protect people from the government, and specifically
from people in the government like YOU who would abuse government
power.
So, how is it that the 1st Amendment is suddenly supposed to exist to give the
Government power over religion?
The government has no power over religion.
The thing it prevents is religion having power over government, which
is a more common and insidious threat.
And, apparently, a private, Christian group getting a government grant
(voucher) becomes....The GOVERNMENT...right?
No. It becomes an establishment of religion, since government giving
money and/or power to a religious group is the definition of an
"establishment of religion".
lojbab
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
11 Sep 2007 03:54:39 PM |
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On Sep 11, 2:50 pm, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 10, 11:04 am, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Here's a question that seems to get lost in the debate over religion
in government. Was the Bill of Rights added to give the government
power or the people power?
It was given to protect people from the government, and specifically
from people in the government like YOU who would abuse government
power.
So, how is it that the 1st Amendment is suddenly supposed to exist to give the
Government power over religion?
The government has no power over religion.
The thing it prevents is religion having power over government, which
is a more common and insidious threat.
And, apparently, a private, Christian group getting a government grant
(voucher) becomes....The GOVERNMENT...right?
No. It becomes an establishment of religion, since government giving
money and/or power to a religious group is the definition of an
"establishment of religion".
lojbab
Again, you are arguing with yourself, in that you said the 1st
Amendment was to prevent religion IN government. This isn't IN
government but an outside school that you say the 1st amendment
somehow affects. How...if it isn't IN the government that the 1st was
meant to restrict?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
11 Sep 2007 04:32:27 PM |
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In article <1189544079.033363.321440@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> writes:
On Sep 11, 2:50 pm, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 10, 11:04 am, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Here's a question that seems to get lost in the debate over religion
in government. Was the Bill of Rights added to give the government
power or the people power?
It was given to protect people from the government, and specifically
from people in the government like YOU who would abuse government
power.
So, how is it that the 1st Amendment is suddenly supposed to exist to give the
Government power over religion?
The government has no power over religion.
The thing it prevents is religion having power over government, which
is a more common and insidious threat.
And, apparently, a private, Christian group getting a government grant
(voucher) becomes....The GOVERNMENT...right?
No. It becomes an establishment of religion, since government giving
money and/or power to a religious group is the definition of an
"establishment of religion".
lojbab
Again, you are arguing with yourself, in that you said the 1st
Amendment was to prevent religion IN government.
No, he did not.
No one but you has used the phrase "religion /in/ government".
I have no idea, in fact, what "religion in government" might
even mean. A Department of Acceptable Theology?
What Bob DID say is that The First is aimed at keeping the
government from adding its influence or authority to any
given religion.
And so it is.
-- cary
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Bill of Rights Added for Government Power or People Power? |
11 Sep 2007 10:37:43 PM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 11, 2:50 pm, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 10, 11:04 am, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Here's a question that seems to get lost in the debate over religion
in government. Was the Bill of Rights added to give the government
power or the people power?
It was given to protect people from the government, and specifically
from people in the government like YOU who would abuse government
power.
So, how is it that the 1st Amendment is suddenly supposed to exist to give the
Government power over religion?
The government has no power over religion.
The thing it prevents is religion having power over government, which
is a more common and insidious threat.
And, apparently, a private, Christian group getting a government grant
(voucher) becomes....The GOVERNMENT...right?
No. It becomes an establishment of religion, since government giving
money and/or power to a religious group is the definition of an
"establishment of religion".
lojbab
Again, you are arguing with yourself, in that you said the 1st
Amendment was to prevent religion IN government.
That is NOT what I said, as anyone who isn't blind can see above and
here in case they can't find it:
The thing it prevents is religion having power over government, which
is a more common and insidious threat.
Learn to read.
lojbab
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