PART I
WAS: Re: Public education via the *Ordinances* (was Re: DUBYA DOES IT
AGAIN)
A new thread since the other was getting pretty messy as far as keeping
track and following along. Some things from the either can be and probably
will be brought into this one
THE GREAT BUCKEYE- INFO JUNKIE EDUCATION DEBATE
History and current
This has been going on, off and on since December 2001. the context of this
ongoing "debate" at least from my perspective, is Church-state separation.
The more modern contexts would be found within such things as aid to
religion, vouchers, faith based charities, prayer in schools, creationism,
bible reading/study in public schools etc.
There is that element that seeks school-state separation, with out any
constitutional precedence were as there is a pre-constitutional as well as
constitutional precedence for secular public schools, secular public
education, govt (local, state, federal) involvement ("marriage" if you
will ) and that basically is the basis of this ongoing "debate"
Info junkie coming from this perspective, this philosophical-political
veiwpoint:
If viewed from the perspective of it's intent, it leaves the individual
responsible for their own actions and primarily subject to the State and/or
local laws. THIS may be more in line with whatever you've so far proposed,
as it would effect only those within the society the people are more
closely aligned with...locally.
The founders/framers believed in limited government, i.e., States, and
their citizens, are responsible for their own actions. The only *stupidity*
it appears, are those that attempt to revise history, or use the concept of
the Constitution as a "living document", and attempt to impose their
"beliefs" upon others...at the taxpayers expense.
says no way.
I am coming from the historical, factual viewpoint that says and shows
otherwise.
*********************************************************************************
FIRST THREAD
This will take you to the entire thread
http://makeashorterlink.com/?M55425893
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[47] From: Info Junkie ()
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Newsgroups: soc.history, alt.history, alt.politics.usa.constitution,
alt.atheism, alt.history.colonial
Date: 2001-12-01 20:38:20 PST
On Sat, 01 Dec 2001 22:41:13 GMT, "OpusRex" <Azarahara@hotmail.com> wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1183285894d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=3c099637.21278033%40news.ifx.net
[excerpts--Info Junkie () speaking ]
If viewed from the perspective of it's intent, it leaves the individual
responsible for their own actions and primarily subject to the State and/or
local laws. THIS may be more in line with whatever you've so far proposed,
as it would effect only those within the society the people are more
closely aligned with...locally.
The founders/framers believed in limited government, i.e., States, and
their citizens, are responsible for their own actions. The only *stupidity*
it appears, are those that attempt to revise history, or use the concept of
the Constitution as a "living document", and attempt to impose their
"beliefs" upon others...at the taxpayers expense.
WRT the Constitutional intent, public education was a matter for the
States, and NOT the responsibility of the Federal government.
If you research history, there were in some states, "public education".
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[48] From:
Newsgroups:
soc.history,alt.history,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.atheism,alt.history.colonial
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:08:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.9.73.132
(Info Junkie) wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=j85n0u0ir3ad7d7qp1bv2qfq5eki860u0i%404ax.com&output=gplain
[excerpts]
[ (Info Junkie) wrote:
:|WRT the Constitutional intent, public education was a matter for the States,
:|and NOT the responsibility of the Federal government.
[ speaking]
Not quite true, I recommned you check out the the land Ordinance of 1785
and the Northwest Ordinance
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[49] From: (Info Junkie)
Newsgroups:
soc.history,alt.history,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.atheism,alt.history.colonial
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 01:20:50 GMT
On Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:08:49 GMT, wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3c0c210c.3579413%40news.ifx.net&output=gplain
[excerpts]
(Info Junkie) wrote:
:|WRT the Constitutional intent, public education was a matter for the States,
:|and NOT the responsibility of the Federal government.
[]
Not quite true, I recommned you check out the the land Ordinance of 1785
and the Northwest Ordinance
(Info Junkie) wrote:
What you've provided concerned Territories, not States.
Under the Constitution; Article. IV. Section. 3, Clause 2:
The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and
Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the
United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to
Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State. .
Annotations p. 17
"Territories: Powers of Congress Thereover
In the territories, Congress has the entire dominion and sovereignty,
national and local, and has full legislative power over all subjects upon
which a state legislature might act. "
and
"The constitutional guarantees of private rights are applicable in
territories which have been made a part of the United States by
congressional action but not in unincorporated territories. "
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article04/17.html
These territories were not yet made part of the United States. My comment
regarding this issue remains accurate.
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[50] From:
Newsgroups:
soc.history,alt.history,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.atheism,alt.history.colonial
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 14:02:09 GMT
(Info Junkie) wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=brip0u4t0t2nb8if22kbu1hebk0d6o5rg1%404ax.com&output=gplain
[excerpts]
:|> (Info Junkie) wrote:
:|>>:|WRT the Constitutional intent, public education was a matter for the States,
:|>>:|and NOT the responsibility of the Federal government.
:|>Not quite true, I recommned you check out the the land Ordinance of 1785
:|>and the Northwest Ordinance
:|What you've provided concerned Territories, not States.
The Land Ordinance of 1785 established how the territories were to be
surveyed, set up, etc. It also set aside land to be used for the
establishment and support of public schools.
The Land Ordinance of 1785 was the forerunner of the Northwest Ordinance
which set up how states were to be formed and then how they would enter the
union.
Thus, the Land Ordinance and Northwest Ordinance did, in fact establish a
linf between local. state and federal govts and education.
:|Under the Constitution; Article. IV. Section. 3, Clause 2:
:|
:|The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and
:|Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the
:|United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to
:|Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State. .
:|
:|
:|Annotations p. 17
:|
:|"Territories: Powers of Congress Thereover
:|
:|In the territories, Congress has the entire dominion and sovereignty, national
:|and local, and has full legislative power over all subjects upon which a state
:|legislature might act. "
:|
:|and
:|
:|"The constitutional guarantees of private rights are applicable in territories
:|which have been made a part of the United States by congressional action
:|but not in unincorporated territories. "
:|
:|http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article04/17.html
:|
:|These territories were not yet made part of the United States. My comment
:|regarding this issue remains accurate.
It didn't go far enough. My comments pick up where yours leave off and are
accurate as well.
=======================================================
[Cited data follows the above beginning he establishment of my claim though
primary and secondary source data]
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[52] From: (Info Junkie)
Newsgroups:
soc.history,alt.history,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.atheism,alt.history.colonial
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 02:30:57 GMT
On Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:08:49 GMT, wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3c0c34da.8650147%40news.ifx.net&output=gplain
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[53] From:
Newsgroups:
soc.history,alt.history,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.atheism,alt.history.colonial
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 14:02:10 GMT
(Info Junkie) wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dklp0ugq2mjb51qch3o9u6o6h315ti4pcp%404ax.com&output=gplain
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[54] From: (Info Junkie)
Newsgroups:
soc.history,alt.history,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.atheism,alt.history.colonial
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 06:38:26 GMT
On Tue, 04 Dec 2001 14:02:10 GMT, wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3c0f11ba.20971643%40news.ifx.net&output=gplain
[excerpt]
[ (Info Junkie) wrote]
I appreciate your documentation and enjoyed it. However, the Constitution,
as written, made it clear the role of the Federal govt. wrt Territories.
Nowhere is the term "public education" stated nor implied in that document.
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[55] From:
Newsgroups:
soc.history,alt.history,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.atheism,alt.history.colonial
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 12:54:41 GMT
(Info Junkie) wrote
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ffqu0ush64ja8kgubntv0rdpkke8qg84io%404ax.com&output=gplain
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[56] From: (Info Junkie)
Newsgroups:
soc.history,alt.history,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.atheism,alt.history.colonial
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 19:13:30 GMT
On Thu, 06 Dec 2001 12:54:41 GMT, wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3c0fa525.58714165%40news.ifx.net&output=gplain
[excerpt]
(Info Junkie)
I agree that the Northwest Ordinance stated a "means of education shall be
encouraged" in it's writings, I don't see where, upon become as State, the
Federal government would fund their public education. This was because
they didn't have the power to do so under the Articles of Confederation.
This power was not included in those enumerated powers of the US
Constitution, but attempt were made to utilize Hamilton's "implied" powers,
and rejected by Madison.
The wording and inferences were based on some delegates of the time that
preffered to impose an aristocratic government that based it's governing
principles of rule OVER the people, by "the wise and the good". Madison,
amoung others, rejected this notion, and were in 1800, thrown out of favor
as a party.
..
"The Struggle for Democracy in America" -Claude Bowers.
While the Northwest Ordinace was based on the fact that Federal government
took over the "role" of the State, in territories, as statehood had not yet
been established. This was clarified later in the Constitution annotations,
whereas; "Territories: Powers of Congress Thereover
In the territories, Congress has the entire dominion and sovereignty,
national and local, and has full legislative power over all subjects upon
which a state legislature might act. "
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article04/17.htmled
[there is additioon comments by him, and the reader shouold read them as
well. My point in doing this is to establish his original; claims because
somewhere along the way those original claims were revided or enhanced into
this:
(Info Junkie) has written at times :
(1) I've never claimed the federal government could not be "involved" Mr
jalison (alias buckeye), but this is not a delegated power from the states
to allow the federal government to use taxpayer monies to fund public
education in all states.
##################
To which another has called him on:
"Involvement" costs money. Thus the Federal involvement in education
in all states will require spending money in all states. It is a
matter of semantic interpretation whether the spending of money for
functions that the Federal government is "involved in" in all states,
constitutes "funding public education in all states", a stilted
buzz-phrase that you seem to repeat over and over again even though it
has no clear meaning.
and
Of course it does, depending what you mean by the phrase "provides
taxpayer monies to fund public education in all states". I hope you
realize that the phrase is multiply ambiguous, since I've pointed it
out to you before.
along with:
You haven't defined what "provides taxpayer monies to fund public
education in all states" means to you. If it doesn't mean "aid to
education", specifically fiscal aid, then I have no idea what you've
been arguing about the last couple of years. But then you probably
don't either.
I'm not going to bother trying to figure out what YOU think the
context is. Provide a definition for your phrase, or lose the
argument.
Define the phrase, and I'll be able to answer your question. Without
a definition of the phrase, I cannot possibly show how any examples
apply, because you can just slip your definition around to evade my
points. Not interested.
You are getting closer to a definition, but I want more than examples.
How is that an example of "providing taxpayer monies to fund public
education in all states"?
Who knows and who cares? The constitution means what the courts have
ruled it to mean, and that meaning has been affected by 200+ years of
experience, several amendments which changed the constitution from
what was originally ratified in significant ways, and issue that came
up that were not even considered by the ratifiers.
You have posted no evidence supporting your position because you have
failed to clearly state what your position is.
Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>
###################
(2)
Since jalison's position is that it's constitutionaly legal to use federal
taxpayer monies to fund public education in all states based on the
Northwest Ordinance laws to be applied to States after they've aopted their
own Constitution and have been admitted into the union, and you cite
"appeals to judicial authority often win", then from:
#############
To which I replied in the following manner,
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Ahhhhhh,++the+usual+bondrock%40ifx.net+(Info+Junkie)+game+playing.&hl=en&lr=&selm=t6p4n05f069fv5fi3u165cm1c38kkqg3no%404ax.com&rnum=1
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2584925011d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=t6p4n05f069fv5fi3u165cm1c38kkqg3no%404ax.com
http://makeashorterlink.com/?F53F11299
To which he has never replied back
#############
(3) Yawn. Previously proven time and again wrt the federal funding of
public education with taxpayer monies for all states remains
unconstitutional.
(4) To cite the Ordinances "formula" or the federal government was
"involved" as justification that it is a valid legal constitutional power
delegated by the states to the federal government to use federal taxpayer
monies to fund public education in all states postratification of the US
Constitution is the "semantic" Mr jalison (alias buckeye).
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[57] rom:
Newsgroups:
soc.history,alt.history,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.atheism,alt.history.colonial
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 20:33:53 GMT
(Info Junkie) wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ri921u8nt2539ot5r3f8rmnpeus8qlal7q%404ax.com&output=gplain
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[58] From: (Info Junkie)
Newsgroups:
soc.history,alt.history,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.atheism,alt.history.colonial
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 04:54:52 GMT
On Fri, 07 Dec 2001 20:33:53 GMT, wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3c11342c.23367968%40news.ifx.net&output=gplain
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[59] From:
Newsgroups:
soc.history,alt.history,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.atheism,alt.history.colonial
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 20:43:00 GMT
(Info Junkie) wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=7aa21ugku56fgbh7qdrkla1hlvbsm8jtui%404ax.com&output=gplain
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[60] From: (Info Junkie)
Newsgroups:
soc.history,alt.history,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.atheism,alt.history.colonial
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 05:55:51 GMT
On Fri, 07 Dec 2001 20:43:00 GMT, wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3c119d39.50263686%40news.ifx.net&output=gplain
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[61] From:
Newsgroups:
soc.history,alt.history,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.atheism,alt.history.colonial
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 13:57:36 GMT
continued from previous post.
(Info Junkie) wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=sr641usu6tlfph67romh0rk0vl2sg1jtgm%404ax.com&output=gplain
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[62] From: (Info Junkie)
Newsgroups:
soc.history,alt.history,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.atheism,alt.history.colonial
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 20:04:44 GMT
On Sat, 08 Dec 2001 13:57:36 GMT, wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3c124a9d.102618%40news.ifx.net&output=gplain
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[63] From:
Newsgroups:
soc.history,alt.history,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.atheism,alt.history.colonial
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 17:12:53 GMT
Continued from previous post
(Info Junkie) wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1ig41u442c48riiqmr6kqe070556em447i%404ax.com&output=gplain
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[64] From: (Info Junkie)
Newsgroups:
soc.history,alt.history,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.atheism,alt.history.colonial
Subject: Re: Prayer in government buildings
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 04:52:55 GMT
On Sat, 08 Dec 2001 17:12:53 GMT, wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3c12ce5b.33833910%40news.ifx.net&output=gplain
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