PART #1 OF THIS SERIES
Ok, here we go back to the beginning;
bondrock@ifx.net (Info Junkie) wrote:
If viewed from the perspective of it's intent, it leaves the individual
responsible for their own actions and primarily subject to the State and/or
local laws. THIS may be more in line with whatever you've so far proposed,
as it would effect only those within the society the people are more
closely aligned with...locally.
The founders/framers believed in limited government, i.e., States, and
their citizens, are responsible for their own actions. The only *stupidity*
it appears, are those that attempt to revise history, or use the concept of
the Constitution as a "living document", and attempt to impose their
"beliefs" upon others...at the taxpayers expense.
WRT the Constitutional intent, public education was a matter for the
States, and NOT the responsibility of the Federal government.
If you research history, there were in some states, "public education".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What you've provided concerned Territories, not States.
Under the Constitution; Article. IV. Section. 3, Clause 2:
The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and
Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the
United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to
Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State. .
Annotations p. 17
"Territories: Powers of Congress Thereover
In the territories, Congress has the entire dominion and sovereignty,
national and local, and has full legislative power over all subjects upon
which a state legislature might act. "
and
"The constitutional guarantees of private rights are applicable in
territories which have been made a part of the United States by
congressional action but not in unincorporated territories. "
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article04/17.html
These territories were not yet made part of the United States. My comment
regarding this issue remains accurate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I appreciate your documentation and enjoyed it. However, the Constitution,
as written, made it clear the role of the Federal govt. wrt Territories.
Nowhere is the term "public education" stated nor implied in that document.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree that the Northwest Ordinance stated a "means of education shall be
encouraged" in it's writings, I don't see where, upon become as State, the
Federal government would fund their public education. This was because
they didn't have the power to do so under the Articles of Confederation.
This power was not included in those enumerated powers of the US
Constitution, but attempt were made to utilize Hamilton's "implied" powers,
and rejected by Madison.
The wording and inferences were based on some delegates of the time that
preffered to impose an aristocratic government that based it's governing
principles of rule OVER the people, by "the wise and the good". Madison,
amoung others, rejected this notion, and were in 1800, thrown out of favor
as a party.
..
"The Struggle for Democracy in America" -Claude Bowers.
While the Northwest Ordinace was based on the fact that Federal government
took over the "role" of the State, in territories, as statehood had not yet
been established. This was clarified later in the Constitution annotations,
whereas; "Territories: Powers of Congress Thereover
In the territories, Congress has the entire dominion and sovereignty,
national and local, and has full legislative power over all subjects upon
which a state legislature might act. "
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article04/17.htmled
***************************************************************************
In reply to the above buckeye had written:
Not quite true, I recommned you check out the the land Ordinance of 1785
and the Northwest Ordinance
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Land Ordinance of 1785 established how the territories were to be
surveyed, set up, etc. It also set aside land to be used for the
establishment and support of public schools.
The Land Ordinance of 1785 was the forerunner of the Northwest Ordinance
which set up how states were to be formed and then how they would enter the
union.
Thus, the Land Ordinance and Northwest Ordinance did, in fact establish a
link between local. state and federal govts and education.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To support my claims I offer the following:
EARTH AT NIGHT
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/nightearth.htm
Earth at Night....It is an absolutely awesome panoramic picture of the
World at night. Scroll right and down to view entire image. Check out some
observations below picture. Courtesy of The Freeman Institute -- Thanks for
stopping by...
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/nightearth.htm
9. In the Midwest US (everything north of Texas) the city lights form a
nice "grid" of dots all lined up. This grid pattern was established as a
result of the General Land Survey, initiated following the Louisiana
Purchase to map the newly acquired lands west of the Mississippi.
[actually they got their facts mucked up above. It had nothing to do with
the La. Purchase, it was the Land Ordinance of 1785]
The GLS is based on a large scale grid of Principal Meridians (north -
south) and Base Lines (east - west). These grids were then subdivided into
36 square mile Townships (6 miles square, containing 36 sections of one
square mile or 640 acres each). Each Township had a designated school
section. Roads tended to be located on the boundaries between sections,
thus forming a grid one mile by one mile. Major roads, and subsequently
railroads, tended to be located on Township lines, forming a larger grid.
This tended to impose a distance of about 6 miles between towns, which has
endured to this day. Many Townships saw the development of towns (and
subsequently, cities), often at intersections of major roads along township
boundaries.
http://www.cojoweb.com/earthlights.html
http://www.redrat.net/blackhole/earthlights.htm
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/nightearth.htm
*********************************************************************************
MY POSITION:
This is my position as shown when this article was first put together
Short version:
Land Ordinance of 1785 and Northwest Ordinance of 1787- General
The precedence for the federal government being involved in public
education is found in documents that pre-existed the Constitution. One is
the Land Ordinance of 1785 , along with the Northwest Ordinance of 1787.
**************************************************************
Long Version
As of May 27, 2001
Short General History of The Federal Government and Education
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/educ.htm
[EXCERPT]
Land Ordinance of 1785 and Northwest Ordinance of 1787- General
The precedence for the federal government being involved in public
education is found in documents that pre-existed the Constitution. One is
the Land Ordinance of 1785 , along with the Northwest Ordinance of 1787.
The Land Ordinance required a system of public education to be established
in each township formed under a specified formula. The Northwest Ordinance,
adopted in 1787 and adopted again in 1789 under the Federal Constitution,
continued the formula for forming townships, and requiring the support of
common schools. It also established the formula for the government of said
territories formed under its directions and the manner that these
territories would enter the union as states. Those formulas remained in
effect long enough to see approximately 32 states admitted to statehood
under its directions and blueprint. While a territory, each of these future
states was under the control of Congress. One regulation was that the 16th
lot of each township was to be used to generate monies (via selling,
renting, being taxed, etc) to support and maintain a common school system.
In addition, other land was to be donated by the government to raise money
to aid in supporting this school system, and local taxes were to be raised
as another way to support this school system. No one claimed at the time
this was unconstitutional or before the constitution, illegal or incorrect.
Note: In 1785, it was suggested by some in the Continental Congress
that lot #29 of each township be similarly used&-mdash;but to support
religion instead of public schools. That suggestion was voted down
overwhelmingly. James Madison wrote James Monroe commenting on how out of
order such a proposal had been.
From the Land Ordinance of 1785
There shall be reserved for the United States out of every township,
the four lots, being numbered 8, 11, 28, 29, and out of every fractional
part of a township, so many lots of the same numbers as shall be found
thereon, for future sale. [Emphasis added] THERE SHALL BE RESERVED THE LOT
N 16, OF EVERY TOWNSHIP, FOR THE MAINTENANCE OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS, WITHIN SAID
TOWNSHIP; also one third part of all gold, silver, lead and copper mines,
to be sold, or otherwise disposed of as Congress shall hereafter direct.
When any township, or fractional part of a township, shall have been
sold as aforesaid, and the money or certificates received therefor, the
loan officer shall deliver a deed in the following terms:
The United States of America, to all to whom these presents shall come,
greeting:
Know ye, That for the consideration of _____ dollars, we have granted,
and hereby do grant and confirm unto the township, (or fractional part of a
township, as the case may be) numbered ____ in the range ____ excepting
therefrom, and reserving one third part of all gold, silver, lead and
copper mines within the same; and the lots Ns 8, 11, 28, and 29, for future
sale or disposition, [Emphasis added] AND THE LOT N 16, FOR THE MAINTENANCE
OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
***************************************************************
The above is further supported by the following:
One entire chapter of the new 6th edition is available on line at
CHAPTER THREE. THE ROLE OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
http://64.78.63.75/samples/05EDU0404AlexanderAmerPublicSchoolLaw6ch3.pdf
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N16433179
American Public School Law, Sixth Edition, Kern Alexander, University of
Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, M. David Alexander, Virginia Tech University
and
PUBLIC EDUCATION IN AMERICA
From: ()
Subject: Re: Public education via the *Ordinances* (was Re: DUBYA DOES IT
AGAIN)
Newsgroups: alt.education, alt.politics.bush, alt.politics.democrats.d,
alt.politics.liberalism, alt.politics.usa.constitution,
alt.politics.usa.republican, misc.education
Date: 2004-10-14 06:52:36 PST
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl4089423541d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=e41tm01goas6bus7s3nauvhiu3q94tv92u%404ax.com
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V25E14889
[the above material is from, well if all of the cites were followed
possibly as many as 100 scholars, sources, etc]
************************************************************
Now, let's see what I can find on Google with regards to references to
education, Northwest Ordinance that I have said
here are some:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Northwest+Ordinance,+schools&hl=en&lr=&sa=G
now can you find anything among these that claim that I ever claimed or
stated or advanced this:
:|Since jalison's position is that it's constitutionaly legal to use federal
:|taxpayer monies to fund public education in all states based on the Northwest
:|Ordinance laws to be applied to States after they've aopted their own
:|Constitution and have been admitted into the union,
LOL
Lets try this, this should contain my oldest comment on the topic
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=jalison%40infi.net,+northwest+ordinance&hl=en&lr=&filter=0
You will find most of my comments about the N.O. pertained to religion and
not schools as such.
NOW KINDLY PROVIDE ANY QUOTES WHERE I HAVE SAID
:| . . . it's constitutionaly legal to use federal
:|taxpayer monies to fund public education in all states based on the Northwest
:|Ordinance laws to be applied to States after they've aopted their own
:|Constitution and have been admitted into the union,
You won't find any such quotes because they don't exist.
Thus you are showing you need to lie, play games, etc to make your points.
.
|
