| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
| Date: |
12 Jul 2007 10:58:00 AM |
| Object: |
Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy. He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
.
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| User: "Joe S." |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
12 Jul 2007 12:59:21 PM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy.
Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki to Congress, told Donald Rumsfeld, and
told Bush that the war in Iraq would "require several hundred thousand
troops and over a decade."
Not only was Shinseki ignored, he was ridiculed and fired.
Since when has Bush followed the advice of the experts?
He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
16 Jul 2007 08:25:22 PM |
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On Jul 12, 10:59 am, "Joe S." <non...@nosuch.net> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy.
Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki to Congress, told Donald Rumsfeld, and
told Bush that the war in Iraq would "require several hundred thousand
troops and over a decade."
Not only was Shinseki ignored, he was ridiculed and fired.
Since when has Bush followed the advice of the experts?
He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
George Dumbya Bush and Shlong Cheney are so wankitty! This assinine
war in Iraq is just a facade they hide behind while they are giving
blow jobs to Bin Laden.
.
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
12 Jul 2007 01:03:50 PM |
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On Jul 12, 12:59 pm, "Joe S." <non...@nosuch.net> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy.
Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki to Congress, told Donald Rumsfeld, and
told Bush that the war in Iraq would "require several hundred thousand
troops and over a decade."
Not only was Shinseki ignored, he was ridiculed and fired.
Since when has Bush followed the advice of the experts?
He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
It was the Democrats that attacked him...remember?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
.
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| User: "Joe S." |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
12 Jul 2007 02:25:21 PM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <writingken@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1184263430.934041.143600@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 12, 12:59 pm, "Joe S." <non...@nosuch.net> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in
messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy.
Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki to Congress, told Donald Rumsfeld, and
told Bush that the war in Iraq would "require several hundred thousand
troops and over a decade."
Not only was Shinseki ignored, he was ridiculed and fired.
Since when has Bush followed the advice of the experts?
He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
It was the Democrats that attacked him...remember?
You truly have no grasp of reality.
After Shinseki's testimony, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld and Deputy SECDEF
Wolfowitz denounced Shinseki's testimony as "wildly off the mark."
Please cite for me a single instance of a Democrat criticizing Shinseki.
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
12 Jul 2007 01:32:57 PM |
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In article <1184263430.934041.143600@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writingken@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 12:59 pm, "Joe S." <non...@nosuch.net> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy.
Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki to Congress, told Donald Rumsfeld, and
told Bush that the war in Iraq would "require several hundred thousand
troops and over a decade."
Not only was Shinseki ignored, he was ridiculed and fired.
Since when has Bush followed the advice of the experts?
He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
It was the Democrats that attacked him...remember?
Paul Wolfowitz was a DEMOCRAT?
Whoa! Say it isn't so!
--cary
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
12 Jul 2007 06:35:01 PM |
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On Jul 12, 1:32 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184263430.934041.143...@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 12:59 pm, "Joe S." <non...@nosuch.net> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy.
Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki to Congress, told Donald Rumsfeld, and
told Bush that the war in Iraq would "require several hundred thousand
troops and over a decade."
Not only was Shinseki ignored, he was ridiculed and fired.
Since when has Bush followed the advice of the experts?
He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
It was the Democrats that attacked him...remember?
Paul Wolfowitz was a DEMOCRAT?
Whoa! Say it isn't so!
--cary
What Congressmen were behind the attack?
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
12 Jul 2007 06:48:06 PM |
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In article <1184283301.755274.323780@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 1:32 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184263430.934041.143...@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 12:59 pm, "Joe S." <non...@nosuch.net> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy.
Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki to Congress, told Donald Rumsfeld, and
told Bush that the war in Iraq would "require several hundred thousand
troops and over a decade."
Not only was Shinseki ignored, he was ridiculed and fired.
Since when has Bush followed the advice of the experts?
He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
It was the Democrats that attacked him...remember?
Paul Wolfowitz was a DEMOCRAT?
Whoa! Say it isn't so!
--cary
What Congressmen were behind the attack?
Your claim; you tell me.
You may list them here:
-- cary
.
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
12 Jul 2007 07:00:54 PM |
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On Jul 12, 6:48 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184283301.755274.323...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 1:32 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184263430.934041.143...@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 12:59 pm, "Joe S." <non...@nosuch.net> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy.
Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki to Congress, told Donald Rumsfeld, and
told Bush that the war in Iraq would "require several hundred thousand
troops and over a decade."
Not only was Shinseki ignored, he was ridiculed and fired.
Since when has Bush followed the advice of the experts?
He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
It was the Democrats that attacked him...remember?
Paul Wolfowitz was a DEMOCRAT?
Whoa! Say it isn't so!
--cary
What Congressmen were behind the attack?
Your claim; you tell me.
You may list them here:
-- cary
Senator Levin to start with. Though I want to take this moment to
emphasize something. YOU didn't have proof the attacks were from the
GOP before launching into the lie. That lack of foundation infects
ALL of your conclusions on here, lately.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
12 Jul 2007 07:13:37 PM |
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In article <1184284854.327442.286030@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 6:48 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184283301.755274.323...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 1:32 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184263430.934041.143...@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 12:59 pm, "Joe S." <non...@nosuch.net> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy.
Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki to Congress, told Donald Rumsfeld, and
told Bush that the war in Iraq would "require several hundred thousand
troops and over a decade."
Not only was Shinseki ignored, he was ridiculed and fired.
Since when has Bush followed the advice of the experts?
He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
It was the Democrats that attacked him...remember?
Paul Wolfowitz was a DEMOCRAT?
Whoa! Say it isn't so!
--cary
What Congressmen were behind the attack?
Your claim; you tell me.
You may list them here:
-- cary
Senator Levin to start with. Though I want to take this moment to
emphasize something. YOU didn't have proof the attacks were from the
GOP before launching into the lie.
What lie? That Wolfowitz attacked Shinseki?
Doesn't seem like a lie to me.
Must have been some other lie.
Kindly quote my lie here:
-- cary
.
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| User: "Anti-Venom" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
12 Jul 2007 07:24:17 PM |
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On Jul 12, 7:13 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184284854.327442.286...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 6:48 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184283301.755274.323...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 1:32 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184263430.934041.143...@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 12:59 pm, "Joe S." <non...@nosuch.net> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy.
Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki to Congress, told Donald Rumsfeld, and
told Bush that the war in Iraq would "require several hundred thousand
troops and over a decade."
Not only was Shinseki ignored, he was ridiculed and fired.
Since when has Bush followed the advice of the experts?
He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
It was the Democrats that attacked him...remember?
Paul Wolfowitz was a DEMOCRAT?
Whoa! Say it isn't so!
--cary
What Congressmen were behind the attack?
Your claim; you tell me.
You may list them here:
-- cary
Senator Levin to start with. Though I want to take this moment to
emphasize something. YOU didn't have proof the attacks were from the
GOP before launching into the lie.
What lie? That Wolfowitz attacked Shinseki?
Doesn't seem like a lie to me.
Must have been some other lie.
Kindly quote my lie here:
-- cary
See. Distraction attempt above to cover for having said the President
and GOP attacked him for his testimony, when in fact it was the DNC
that attacked him.
Why do you trust politicians to run a war over soldiers?
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
12 Jul 2007 07:39:32 PM |
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In article <1184286257.905964.256260@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Anti-Venom <writingken@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 7:13 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184284854.327442.286...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 6:48 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184283301.755274.323...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 1:32 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184263430.934041.143...@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 12:59 pm, "Joe S." <non...@nosuch.net> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy.
Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki to Congress, told Donald Rumsfeld, and
told Bush that the war in Iraq would "require several hundred thousand
troops and over a decade."
Not only was Shinseki ignored, he was ridiculed and fired.
Since when has Bush followed the advice of the experts?
He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
It was the Democrats that attacked him...remember?
Paul Wolfowitz was a DEMOCRAT?
Whoa! Say it isn't so!
--cary
What Congressmen were behind the attack?
Your claim; you tell me.
You may list them here:
-- cary
Senator Levin to start with. Though I want to take this moment to
emphasize something. YOU didn't have proof the attacks were from the
GOP before launching into the lie.
What lie? That Wolfowitz attacked Shinseki?
Doesn't seem like a lie to me.
Must have been some other lie.
Kindly quote my lie here:
-- cary
See. Distraction attempt above to cover for having said the President
Where did I say that Bush attacked Shinseki?
quote here, if you will:
and GOP attacked him for his testimony,
Where did I say that "the GOP" attacked Shinseki:
Here, if you will be so kind:
when in fact it was the DNC that attacked him.
The who? I thought you had said "Senator Levin"
Levin IS the DNC?
In any event, let's play "Spot the attack!"
N. LEVIN: General Shinseki, could you give us some idea as to the
magnitude of the Army's force requirement for an occupation of Iraq
following a successful completion of the war?
GEN. SHINSEKI: In specific numbers, I would have to rely on combatant
commanders' exact requirements. But I think --
SEN. LEVIN: How about a range?
GEN. SHINSEKI: I would say that what's been mobilized to this point --
something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers are
probably, you know, a figure that would be required. We're talking
about post- hostilities control over a piece of geography that's fairly
significant, with the kinds of ethnic tensions that could lead to other
problems. And so it takes a significant ground- force presence to
maintain a safe and secure environment, to ensure that people are fed,
that water is distributed, all the normal responsibilities that go
along with administering a situation like this.
--------------
Reached after the Senate hearing, Levin said Shinseki's estimate of an
occupation force was "very sobering and I would hope the American
public would have the opportunity to read that testimony."
OK, you go first:
-- cary
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
13 Jul 2007 08:19:13 AM |
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On Jul 12, 7:39 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184286257.905964.256...@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Anti-Venom <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 7:13 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184284854.327442.286...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 6:48 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184283301.755274.323...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 1:32 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184263430.934041.143...@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 12:59 pm, "Joe S." <non...@nosuch.net> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy.
Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki to Congress, told Donald Rumsfeld, and
told Bush that the war in Iraq would "require several hundred thousand
troops and over a decade."
Not only was Shinseki ignored, he was ridiculed and fired.
Since when has Bush followed the advice of the experts?
He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
It was the Democrats that attacked him...remember?
Paul Wolfowitz was a DEMOCRAT?
Whoa! Say it isn't so!
--cary
What Congressmen were behind the attack?
Your claim; you tell me.
You may list them here:
-- cary
Senator Levin to start with. Though I want to take this moment to
emphasize something. YOU didn't have proof the attacks were from the
GOP before launching into the lie.
What lie? That Wolfowitz attacked Shinseki?
Doesn't seem like a lie to me.
Must have been some other lie.
Kindly quote my lie here:
-- cary
See. Distraction attempt above to cover for having said the President
Where did I say that Bush attacked Shinseki?
quote here, if you will:
and GOP attacked him for his testimony,
Where did I say that "the GOP" attacked Shinseki:
Here, if you will be so kind:
when in fact it was the DNC that attacked him.
The who? I thought you had said "Senator Levin"
Levin IS the DNC?
In any event, let's play "Spot the attack!"
N. LEVIN: General Shinseki, could you give us some idea as to the
magnitude of the Army's force requirement for an occupation of Iraq
following a successful completion of the war?
GEN. SHINSEKI: In specific numbers, I would have to rely on combatant
commanders' exact requirements. But I think --
SEN. LEVIN: How about a range?
GEN. SHINSEKI: I would say that what's been mobilized to this point --
something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers are
probably, you know, a figure that would be required. We're talking
about post- hostilities control over a piece of geography that's fairly
significant, with the kinds of ethnic tensions that could lead to other
problems. And so it takes a significant ground- force presence to
maintain a safe and secure environment, to ensure that people are fed,
that water is distributed, all the normal responsibilities that go
along with administering a situation like this.
--------------
Reached after the Senate hearing, Levin said Shinseki's estimate of an
occupation force was "very sobering and I would hope the American
public would have the opportunity to read that testimony."
OK, you go first:
-- cary
I won't let you distract. Answer the question you keep ducking. Why
do you trust politicians to plan a war more than career military
commanders?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
13 Jul 2007 11:13:12 AM |
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In article <1184332753.371945.264830@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writingken@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 7:39 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184286257.905964.256...@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Anti-Venom <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 7:13 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184284854.327442.286...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 6:48 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184283301.755274.323...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 1:32 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184263430.934041.143...@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 12:59 pm, "Joe S." <non...@nosuch.net> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy.
Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki to Congress, told Donald Rumsfeld, and
told Bush that the war in Iraq would "require several hundred thousand
troops and over a decade."
Not only was Shinseki ignored, he was ridiculed and fired.
Since when has Bush followed the advice of the experts?
He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
It was the Democrats that attacked him...remember?
Paul Wolfowitz was a DEMOCRAT?
Whoa! Say it isn't so!
--cary
What Congressmen were behind the attack?
Your claim; you tell me.
You may list them here:
-- cary
Senator Levin to start with. Though I want to take this moment to
emphasize something. YOU didn't have proof the attacks were from the
GOP before launching into the lie.
What lie? That Wolfowitz attacked Shinseki?
Doesn't seem like a lie to me.
Must have been some other lie.
Kindly quote my lie here:
-- cary
See. Distraction attempt above to cover for having said the President
Where did I say that Bush attacked Shinseki?
quote here, if you will:
and GOP attacked him for his testimony,
Where did I say that "the GOP" attacked Shinseki:
Here, if you will be so kind:
when in fact it was the DNC that attacked him.
The who? I thought you had said "Senator Levin"
Levin IS the DNC?
In any event, let's play "Spot the attack!"
N. LEVIN: General Shinseki, could you give us some idea as to the
magnitude of the Army's force requirement for an occupation of Iraq
following a successful completion of the war?
GEN. SHINSEKI: In specific numbers, I would have to rely on combatant
commanders' exact requirements. But I think --
SEN. LEVIN: How about a range?
GEN. SHINSEKI: I would say that what's been mobilized to this point --
something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers are
probably, you know, a figure that would be required. We're talking
about post- hostilities control over a piece of geography that's fairly
significant, with the kinds of ethnic tensions that could lead to other
problems. And so it takes a significant ground- force presence to
maintain a safe and secure environment, to ensure that people are fed,
that water is distributed, all the normal responsibilities that go
along with administering a situation like this.
--------------
Reached after the Senate hearing, Levin said Shinseki's estimate of an
occupation force was "very sobering and I would hope the American
public would have the opportunity to read that testimony."
OK, you go first:
-- cary
I won't let you distract.
Speaking of attempts to distract, where is that Democratic
attack on Shinseki again? I'm havins some real trouble
coming up with evidence for it.
But you clearly said that "It was the Democrats that attacked
him...remember?", and since I'm just SURE you didn't just
make that up, I'd really like to see some documentation.
Here would be nice:
Answer the question you keep ducking. Why
do you trust politicians to plan a war more than career military
commanders?
You know, Clifton, I'm really, REALLY sick of your putting
words into my mouth. Show me where I said that -- you won't
be able to; this is a pure example of your leaping to
a conclusion like Wile E. Coyote sadly strapping on the
rocket skates one more time.
Prove me wrong. Demonstrate where I said that.
Use this space:
-- cary
.
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| User: "Citizen Jimserac" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
13 Jul 2007 08:47:26 AM |
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On Jul 13, 9:19 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 12, 7:39 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184286257.905964.256...@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Anti-Venom <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 7:13 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184284854.327442.286...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 6:48 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184283301.755274.323...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 1:32 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184263430.934041.143...@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 12:59 pm, "Joe S." <non...@nosuch.net> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy.
Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki to Congress, told Donald Rumsfeld, and
told Bush that the war in Iraq would "require several hundred thousand
troops and over a decade."
Not only was Shinseki ignored, he was ridiculed and fired.
Since when has Bush followed the advice of the experts?
He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
It was the Democrats that attacked him...remember?
Paul Wolfowitz was a DEMOCRAT?
Whoa! Say it isn't so!
--cary
What Congressmen were behind the attack?
Your claim; you tell me.
You may list them here:
-- cary
Senator Levin to start with. Though I want to take this moment to
emphasize something. YOU didn't have proof the attacks were from the
GOP before launching into the lie.
What lie? That Wolfowitz attacked Shinseki?
Doesn't seem like a lie to me.
Must have been some other lie.
Kindly quote my lie here:
-- cary
See. Distraction attempt above to cover for having said the President
Where did I say that Bush attacked Shinseki?
quote here, if you will:
and GOP attacked him for his testimony,
Where did I say that "the GOP" attacked Shinseki:
Here, if you will be so kind:
when in fact it was the DNC that attacked him.
The who? I thought you had said "Senator Levin"
Levin IS the DNC?
In any event, let's play "Spot the attack!"
N. LEVIN: General Shinseki, could you give us some idea as to the
magnitude of the Army's force requirement for an occupation of Iraq
following a successful completion of the war?
GEN. SHINSEKI: In specific numbers, I would have to rely on combatant
commanders' exact requirements. But I think --
SEN. LEVIN: How about a range?
GEN. SHINSEKI: I would say that what's been mobilized to this point --
something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers are
probably, you know, a figure that would be required. We're talking
about post- hostilities control over a piece of geography that's fairly
significant, with the kinds of ethnic tensions that could lead to other
problems. And so it takes a significant ground- force presence to
maintain a safe and secure environment, to ensure that people are fed,
that water is distributed, all the normal responsibilities that go
along with administering a situation like this.
--------------
Reached after the Senate hearing, Levin said Shinseki's estimate of an
occupation force was "very sobering and I would hope the American
public would have the opportunity to read that testimony."
OK, you go first:
-- cary
I won't let you distract. Answer the question you keep ducking. Why
do you trust politicians to plan a war more than career military
commanders?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Because a politician, the president
of the United States, is given the power of
COMMANDER IN CHIEF of the armed forces.
Should that president prove to be inept, as is the
current one, then it all the more behooves us
to take care when electing them.
As for your Pentagon experts, are these the same
kinds of experts that ignored or
misinterpreted numerous warnings
before Pearl Harbor, 9-11, the Tet Offensive,
the bombing of the marine barracks?
Are these the same experts who have looked
the other way as our defense companies
with outsourcings and H1B hiring of foreigners
have allowed our most precious and expensive
military technology to leak away to future
enemies. Are THESE the experts
in which you place such great faith?
Citizen Jimserac
.
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
13 Jul 2007 08:58:01 AM |
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On Jul 13, 8:47 am, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 13, 9:19 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 12, 7:39 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184286257.905964.256...@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Anti-Venom <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 7:13 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184284854.327442.286...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 6:48 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184283301.755274.323...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 1:32 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184263430.934041.143...@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 12:59 pm, "Joe S." <non...@nosuch.net> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy.
Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki to Congress, told Donald Rumsfeld, and
told Bush that the war in Iraq would "require several hundred thousand
troops and over a decade."
Not only was Shinseki ignored, he was ridiculed and fired.
Since when has Bush followed the advice of the experts?
He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
It was the Democrats that attacked him...remember?
Paul Wolfowitz was a DEMOCRAT?
Whoa! Say it isn't so!
--cary
What Congressmen were behind the attack?
Your claim; you tell me.
You may list them here:
-- cary
Senator Levin to start with. Though I want to take this moment to
emphasize something. YOU didn't have proof the attacks were from the
GOP before launching into the lie.
What lie? That Wolfowitz attacked Shinseki?
Doesn't seem like a lie to me.
Must have been some other lie.
Kindly quote my lie here:
-- cary
See. Distraction attempt above to cover for having said the President
Where did I say that Bush attacked Shinseki?
quote here, if you will:
and GOP attacked him for his testimony,
Where did I say that "the GOP" attacked Shinseki:
Here, if you will be so kind:
when in fact it was the DNC that attacked him.
The who? I thought you had said "Senator Levin"
Levin IS the DNC?
In any event, let's play "Spot the attack!"
N. LEVIN: General Shinseki, could you give us some idea as to the
magnitude of the Army's force requirement for an occupation of Iraq
following a successful completion of the war?
GEN. SHINSEKI: In specific numbers, I would have to rely on combatant
commanders' exact requirements. But I think --
SEN. LEVIN: How about a range?
GEN. SHINSEKI: I would say that what's been mobilized to this point --
something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers are
probably, you know, a figure that would be required. We're talking
about post- hostilities control over a piece of geography that's fairly
significant, with the kinds of ethnic tensions that could lead to other
problems. And so it takes a significant ground- force presence to
maintain a safe and secure environment, to ensure that people are fed,
that water is distributed, all the normal responsibilities that go
along with administering a situation like this.
--------------
Reached after the Senate hearing, Levin said Shinseki's estimate of an
occupation force was "very sobering and I would hope the American
public would have the opportunity to read that testimony."
OK, you go first:
-- cary
I won't let you distract. Answer the question you keep ducking. Why
do you trust politicians to plan a war more than career military
commanders?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Because a politician, the president
of the United States, is given the power of
COMMANDER IN CHIEF of the armed forces.
Should that president prove to be inept, as is the
current one, then it all the more behooves us
to take care when electing them.
As for your Pentagon experts, are these the same
kinds of experts that ignored or
misinterpreted numerous warnings
before Pearl Harbor, 9-11, the Tet Offensive,
the bombing of the marine barracks?
Are these the same experts who have looked
the other way as our defense companies
with outsourcings and H1B hiring of foreigners
have allowed our most precious and expensive
military technology to leak away to future
enemies. Are THESE the experts
in which you place such great faith?
Citizen Jimserac
This goes back to my main point. Your beef, then, your objection is
with how the Pentagon (the experts) say the war would best be won. As
with the doctor operating on you, they may be wrong, but who are you
to object? Do you (or a politician) have more training to run a war?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.
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| User: "Citizen Jimserac" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
13 Jul 2007 09:53:06 AM |
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On Jul 13, 9:58 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 13, 8:47 am, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 13, 9:19 am, Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 12, 7:39 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184286257.905964.256...@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Anti-Venom <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 7:13 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184284854.327442.286...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 6:48 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184283301.755274.323...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 1:32 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184263430.934041.143...@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 12:59 pm, "Joe S." <non...@nosuch.net> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy.
Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki to Congress, told Donald Rumsfeld, and
told Bush that the war in Iraq would "require several hundred thousand
troops and over a decade."
Not only was Shinseki ignored, he was ridiculed and fired.
Since when has Bush followed the advice of the experts?
He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
-author of The Christian Superhero Training Guide
http://www.christiansuperhero.com
It was the Democrats that attacked him...remember?
Paul Wolfowitz was a DEMOCRAT?
Whoa! Say it isn't so!
--cary
What Congressmen were behind the attack?
Your claim; you tell me.
You may list them here:
-- cary
Senator Levin to start with. Though I want to take this moment to
emphasize something. YOU didn't have proof the attacks were from the
GOP before launching into the lie.
What lie? That Wolfowitz attacked Shinseki?
Doesn't seem like a lie to me.
Must have been some other lie.
Kindly quote my lie here:
-- cary
See. Distraction attempt above to cover for having said the President
Where did I say that Bush attacked Shinseki?
quote here, if you will:
and GOP attacked him for his testimony,
Where did I say that "the GOP" attacked Shinseki:
Here, if you will be so kind:
when in fact it was the DNC that attacked him.
The who? I thought you had said "Senator Levin"
Levin IS the DNC?
In any event, let's play "Spot the attack!"
N. LEVIN: General Shinseki, could you give us some idea as to the
magnitude of the Army's force requirement for an occupation of Iraq
following a successful completion of the war?
GEN. SHINSEKI: In specific numbers, I would have to rely on combatant
commanders' exact requirements. But I think --
SEN. LEVIN: How about a range?
GEN. SHINSEKI: I would say that what's been mobilized to this point --
something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers are
probably, you know, a figure that would be required. We're talking
about post- hostilities control over a piece of geography that's fairly
significant, with the kinds of ethnic tensions that could lead to other
problems. And so it takes a significant ground- force presence to
maintain a safe and secure environment, to ensure that people are fed,
that water is distributed, all the normal responsibilities that go
along with administering a situation like this.
--------------
Reached after the Senate hearing, Levin said Shinseki's estimate of an
occupation force was "very sobering and I would hope the American
public would have the opportunity to read that testimony."
OK, you go first:
-- cary
I won't let you distract. Answer the question you keep ducking. Why
do you trust politicians to plan a war more than career military
commanders?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Because a politician, the president
of the United States, is given the power of
COMMANDER IN CHIEF of the armed forces.
Should that president prove to be inept, as is the
current one, then it all the more behooves us
to take care when electing them.
As for your Pentagon experts, are these the same
kinds of experts that ignored or
misinterpreted numerous warnings
before Pearl Harbor, 9-11, the Tet Offensive,
the bombing of the marine barracks?
Are these the same experts who have looked
the other way as our defense companies
with outsourcings and H1B hiring of foreigners
have allowed our most precious and expensive
military technology to leak away to future
enemies. Are THESE the experts
in which you place such great faith?
CitizenJimserac
This goes back to my main point. Your beef, then, your objection is
with how the Pentagon (the experts) say the war would best be won. As
with the doctor operating on you, they may be wrong, but who are you
to object? Do you (or a politician) have more training to run a war?
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Your funadmental misconception is that this
war has some useful purpose and if only
the right military leadership is found,
it can be "won" (whatever that means).
My conception is not only mistrust
of the President and the Pentagon
"experts" but also a complete
denial of the idea that the war
serves any useful purpose at all.
You have no comments at all
about the leakage of valuable
defense technologies
to foreign government??
You have no comments at
all on the open border
with Mexico providing
a "terrorists welcome"
sign to anyone who cares
to sneak across??
Curious.
Citizen Jimserac
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
13 Jul 2007 12:47:15 PM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder <writingken@yahoo.com> wrote:
This goes back to my main point. Your beef, then, your objection is
with how the Pentagon (the experts) say the war would best be won. As
with the doctor operating on you, they may be wrong, but who are you
to object?
A citizen of the United States of America. And therefore one who has
the RIGHT to object as well as the authority.
Do you (or a politician) have more training to run a war?
The elected president has the RESPONSIBILITY. If we think that they
need training in running a war, then we really oughta consider that
when deciding to elect someone.
Of course, a lot more of us think that the civilian authority should
be determining the OBJECTIVES for any war which is contemplated, and
the Congress should be approving these objectives, with the military
leadership mere advising on whether the objective is achievable and
how much it will cost in lives and treasure. Beyond that, the
military leadership is supposed to plan "how", not decide "what".
lojbab
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
13 Jul 2007 12:41:36 PM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder <writingken@yahoo.com> wrote:
I won't let you distract. Answer the question you keep ducking. Why
do you trust politicians to plan a war more than career military
commanders?
How about:
US Constitution, Article 2
<Section 2. The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and
< Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states,
< when called into the actual service of the United States;
which gives the responsibility to the civil authority to command the
military, NOT "career military commanders".
Beyond that, this appears to be a good summary of the issue:
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/democracy/dmpaper12.htm
Start with the initial quote:
<"Even when there is a necessity of military power, within the
< land,...a wise and prudent people will always have a watchful &
< jealous eye over it."
< -- Samuel Adams
< Signer of the Declaration of Independence
This paragraph is highly relevant:
<The failure of American military forces in the Vietnam War to achieve
< their immediate war aims had the effect of decreasing further the
< power and authority of the professional military vs. civilian
< authority. Once again, many Americans distrusted military solutions
< and military options. A greater caution in committing to military
< force even developed in the military itself. Since the 1970s, many
< military leaders have been reluctant to use force, arguing that the
< limited use of military force for political purposes without a
< clearly stated objective will result in failure.
There is no clearly stated objective. Military leaders therefore have
no basis to plan the use of force.
lojbab
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| User: "JHR" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
12 Jul 2007 02:38:03 PM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy. He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
Ken said: "He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do".
If you recall, he was advised NOT to invade Iraq. He did it anyway.
Remember, he is the Commander in Chief. He can do what he wants regardless
of the advice he gets.
Why do you think Powell and countless others are not in this Administration
anymore? Because they don't agree with the President.
Whether they were fired or resigned, they thought it was a failed policy.
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
12 Jul 2007 06:39:21 PM |
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On Jul 12, 2:38 pm, "JHR" <BadEnergyPol...@USA.com> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy. He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
Ken said: "He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do".
If you recall, he was advised NOT to invade Iraq. He did it anyway.
Remember, he is the Commander in Chief. He can do what he wants regardless
of the advice he gets.
Why do you think Powell and countless others are not in this Administration
anymore? Because they don't agree with the President.
Whether they were fired or resigned, they thought it was a failed policy.
That is false,completely. Rumsfield (head of the department) was
totally with the President on that. The strategies they had for the
initial attack were prepared at the Pentagon by military leaders, not
by Bush. Bush only greenlit the one we used. You MUST know that.
So, you are being intentionally deceptive.
Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
12 Jul 2007 06:56:47 PM |
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In article <1184283561.696242.294260@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 2:38 pm, "JHR" <BadEnergyPol...@USA.com> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy. He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
Ken said: "He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do".
If you recall, he was advised NOT to invade Iraq. He did it anyway.
Remember, he is the Commander in Chief. He can do what he wants regardless
of the advice he gets.
Why do you think Powell and countless others are not in this Administration
anymore? Because they don't agree with the President.
Whether they were fired or resigned, they thought it was a failed policy.
That is false,completely.
What is false, that Powell left? Than an unprecedented number
of generals took early retirement rather than participate?
Sounds verifiable to me.
Rumsfield (head of the department) was totally with the President on that.
And Rumsfeld was already notorious for running roughshod over
the recommendations of the brass BEFORE all this came along.
And he didn't get any better later.
The strategies they had for the
initial attack were prepared at the Pentagon by military leaders, not
by Bush.
What, they just knocked on the White House door one day? "Surprise, we
think we've come up with a plan for invading Iraq?. Didn't
see that one coming, did you?"
They did as they were told to do. They did not have to think that
the goal was a good idea, they did not even have to think that
the goal was feasible. They had to do as they were told, or,
if they thought the request unconscionable, to get out.
An unprecedented number got out.
Bush only greenlit the one we used. You MUST know that.
So, you are being intentionally deceptive.
It's rather striking how often you confuse someone else's
superior grasp of any given topic with dupliclity.
-- cary
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
12 Jul 2007 07:04:00 PM |
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On Jul 12, 6:56 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184283561.696242.294...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 2:38 pm, "JHR" <BadEnergyPol...@USA.com> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy. He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
Ken said: "He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do".
If you recall, he was advised NOT to invade Iraq. He did it anyway.
Remember, he is the Commander in Chief. He can do what he wants regardless
of the advice he gets.
Why do you think Powell and countless others are not in this Administration
anymore? Because they don't agree with the President.
Whether they were fired or resigned, they thought it was a failed policy.
That is false,completely.
What is false, that Powell left? Than an unprecedented number
of generals took early retirement rather than participate?
Sounds verifiable to me.
Rumsfield (head of the department) was totally with the President on that.
And Rumsfeld was already notorious for running roughshod over
the recommendations of the brass BEFORE all this came along.
And he didn't get any better later.
The strategies they had for the
initial attack were prepared at the Pentagon by military leaders, not
by Bush.
What, they just knocked on the White House door one day? "Surprise, we
think we've come up with a plan for invading Iraq?. Didn't
see that one coming, did you?"
They did as they were told to do. They did not have to think that
the goal was a good idea, they did not even have to think that
the goal was feasible. They had to do as they were told, or,
if they thought the request unconscionable, to get out.
An unprecedented number got out.
Bush only greenlit the one we used. You MUST know that.
So, you are being intentionally deceptive.
It's rather striking how often you confuse someone else's
superior grasp of any given topic with dupliclity.
-- cary
So, you admit the plans you are condemning here were Pentagon plans,
not Bush plans. Why do you trust politicians for running a war more
than military leaders with experience?
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Bush is Right, pt. 2, Trust the Experts |
12 Jul 2007 07:20:17 PM |
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In article <1184285040.672148.291670@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 6:56 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184283561.696242.294...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Jul 12, 2:38 pm, "JHR" <BadEnergyPol...@USA.com> wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184255880.231557.20850@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
A lot of people have been saying Bush is wrong about how he is
fighting the war. However, to my knowledge, Bush hasn't, actually,
planned even ONE military strategy. He keeps going to the generals
and Defense department and doing what THEY told him to do. In fact,
even the troop surge plan was a suggestion of the commanders. So,
when you are saying the war is being fought in a wrong way, you are
not saying that BUSH is wrong. You are saying that ALL of the top
staff at the Pentagon is wrong and the commanders on the ground in
Iraq.
When your car breaks down, you don't tell the mechanic you know
better. When you are facing surgery, you don't tell the doctor how to
operate. However, Democrats think that politicians (experts at
deception and speeches) know better how to win a war than trained
military commanders. How is that?
Kenneth Clifton
Ken said: "He keeps going to the generals
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