| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
08 May 2005 01:32:56 PM |
| Object: |
church excommunicates democrats |
church excommunicates democrats
http://dailykos.com/story/2005/5/5/211218/4946
*****************************************************************************************
This of course marks exhibit 1,098,672 that supports the charge that the
Bush administration and its religious far-right allies are all about
crushing all freedom of conscience and imposing a stultifying totalitarian
theocracy that tolerates absolutely no dissent. As I have mentioned
elsewhere, we are not merely dealing with one or two pieces of evidence
pointing in this direction that can easily be dismissed as unduly alarmist,
we are dealing with the convergence of a great deal of disparate pieces of
evidence - all pointing in the sawm direction - that cannot be so easily
dismissed.
STATEMENT BY RALPH G. NEAS, PEOPLE FOR THE AMERICAN WAY FOUNDATION
Following the report that nine members of the East Waynesville Baptist
Church in western North Carolina were excommunicated because they did not
support President Bush in the election, Ralph G. Neas, President of People
For the American Way Foundation, had the following statement:
“What have we come to when the doors of a church are closed to longtime
members because of their political beliefs? When a pastor equates
political support for the ‘wrong’ candidate with a sin before God?
“I would say to Senator Frist and Karl Rove that this is what comes of
attempts to manipulate religion for political gain. Americans simply will
not accept the claim that ‘unless you accept my political beliefs, you
cannot be a good Christian.’
“This nation was founded on respect for religious belief, and tolerance for
religious diversity. Men and women of faith have every right to advocate
for their political beliefs. While churches, of course, can set their own
membership standards, no one should punish people of faith for their
political beliefs.
“This is terribly sad. I urge the President to express his opposition to
all attempts to manipulate faith for political gain.”
***********************************************************************************
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Church-Politics.html?pagewanted=print
May 7, 2005
Democrats Voted Out of Baptist Church
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 9:51 a.m. ET
WAYNESVILLE, N.C. (AP) -- Some in Pastor Chan Chandler's flock wish he
had a little less zeal for the GOP. Members of the small East Waynesville
Baptist Church say Chandler led an effort to kick out congregants who
didn't support President Bush. Nine members were voted out at a Monday
church meeting in this mountain town, about 120 miles west of Charlotte.
''He's the kind of pastor who says do it my way or get out,'' said
Selma Morris, the former church treasurer. ''He's real negative all the
time.''
Chandler didn't return a message left by The Associated Press at his
home Friday, and several calls to the church went unanswered. He told
WLOS-TV in Asheville that the actions were not politically motivated.
The station also reported that 40 others in the 400-member congregation
resigned in protest after Monday's vote.
During the presidential election last year, Chandler told the
congregation that anyone who planned to vote for Democratic Sen. John Kerry
should either leave the church or repent, said former member Lorene Sutton.
Some church members left after Chandler made his ultimatum in October,
Morris said.
George Bullard, associate executive director-treasurer for Baptist
State Convention of North Carolina, told the Asheville Citizen-Times that a
pastor has every right to disallow memberships if a church's bylaws allow
for the pastor to establish criteria for membership.
''Membership is a local church issue,'' he said. ''It is not something
the state convention would enter into.''
He added that the nine members were not legally terminated because
Monday's meeting was supposed to be a deacons meeting, not a business
meeting. They have a lawyer looking into the situation, he said.
The head of the North Carolina Democratic Party sharply criticized the
pastor Friday, saying Chandler jeopardized his church's tax-free status by
openly supporting a candidate for president.
''If these reports are true, this minister is not only acting extremely
inappropriately by injecting partisan politics into a house of worship, but
he is also potentially breaking the law,'' Chairman Jerry Meek said.
Doris Wilson, one of Chandler's neighbors and a member of First Baptist
Church in Waynesville, said God doesn't play partisan politics.
''I hate to see the church suffer like that,'' she said. ''God doesn't
care whether you're a Republican or a Democrat. It just hurts to see that
going on.''
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Church-Politics.html?pagewanted=print
May 8, 2005
Pastor Says Ouster a Misunderstanding
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 11:59 a.m. ET
WAYNESVILLE, N.C. (AP) -- A pastor who led a charge to kick out nine church
members who refused to support President Bush said Sunday it was all a
misunderstanding, as some of the congregants who said they were ousted
showed up for church anyway.
Members of the tiny East Waynesville Baptist Church said the Rev. Chan
Chandler told them during last year's presidential campaign that anyone who
planned to vote for Democratic nominee John Kerry needed to leave the
church.
This past week, his comments turned to politics again at a church gathering
that ended with nine members voted out. After the vote, other members
reportedly left the church in protest.
Chandler said before Sunday's service that he wouldn't preach about the
controversy, but he called it ''a great misunderstanding.''
Several members who said they had been kicked out went to services Sunday,
as did lawyers for the pastor and the ousted members.
Chandler said he and his wife have received calls from around the nation --
some of them threatening -- since his politics in the pulpit made national
news.
His actions also drew criticism from other Baptist clergymen in this town
about 125 miles northwest of Charlotte.
''This is very disturbing,'' the Rev. Robert Prince III, who leads the
congregation at the nearby First Baptist Church, said Saturday. ''I've been
a pastor for more than 25 years, and I have never seen church members voted
out for something like this.''
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
***********************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and the discussion group for the above site listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
.
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|
| User: "Stan de SD" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
08 May 2005 03:41:44 PM |
|
|
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:fpms71hnvfum2dnfcfatp46f04vaeh0inu@4ax.com...
church excommunicates democrats
http://dailykos.com/story/2005/5/5/211218/4946
****************************************************************************
*************
This of course marks exhibit 1,098,672 that supports the charge that the
Bush administration and its religious far-right allies are all about
crushing all freedom of conscience and imposing a stultifying totalitarian
theocracy that tolerates absolutely no dissent. As I have mentioned
elsewhere, we are not merely dealing with one or two pieces of evidence
pointing in this direction that can easily be dismissed as unduly
alarmist,
we are dealing with the convergence of a great deal of disparate pieces of
evidence - all pointing in the sawm direction - that cannot be so easily
dismissed.
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively indignant
about a church doing it?
.
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|
| User: "Jeff Welch" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
08 May 2005 09:45:55 PM |
|
|
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cQufe.10345$BE3.8150@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share their
ideological perspectives all the time.
News organizations yes, colleges (unless they are theological ones) no.
Why are you selectively indignant
about a church doing it?
Three little words: tax exempt status.
-Jeff
.
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
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| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
10 May 2005 06:50:14 PM |
|
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"Jeff Welch" <seattledemocracy@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115606751.17926b2987998d4ba7be6664b00e6c8a@meganetnews2...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cQufe.10345$BE3.8150@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share their
ideological perspectives all the time.
News organizations yes, colleges (unless they are theological ones) no.
Why are you selectively indignant
about a church doing it?
Three little words: tax exempt status.
So you're equally indignant when Jackson and Sharpton do likewise, and even
more incensed when activist types at universities actually do it with the
taxpayer's money?
.
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| User: "Jeff Welch" |
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| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
11 May 2005 06:41:58 PM |
|
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"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:WMbge.716$OU1.297@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
So you're equally indignant when Jackson and Sharpton do likewise
I'm not aware that either Jackson or Sharpton are heading any tax-exempt
church at the moment.
Are you?
-Jeff
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
09 May 2005 02:55:22 PM |
|
|
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
:|
:|<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
:|news:fpms71hnvfum2dnfcfatp46f04vaeh0inu@4ax.com...
:|>
:|> church excommunicates democrats
:|> http://dailykos.com/story/2005/5/5/211218/4946
:|>
:|>
:|****************************************************************************
:|*************
:|> This of course marks exhibit 1,098,672 that supports the charge that the
:|> Bush administration and its religious far-right allies are all about
:|> crushing all freedom of conscience and imposing a stultifying totalitarian
:|> theocracy that tolerates absolutely no dissent. As I have mentioned
:|> elsewhere, we are not merely dealing with one or two pieces of evidence
:|> pointing in this direction that can easily be dismissed as unduly
:|alarmist,
:|> we are dealing with the convergence of a great deal of disparate pieces of
:|> evidence - all pointing in the sawm direction - that cannot be so easily
:|> dismissed.
:|
:|Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share their
:|ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively indignant
:|about a church doing it?
Totally over your head isn't it?
You don't even come close to getting the irony of it do you?
Instead you attempt to blow smoke, reframe, toss straw about.
(1) can we say possibly in violation of their tax exempt status?
(2) How many examples can one find in the Gospels where Jesus acted in the
same manner?
(3) OH, THE IRONY
I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.
***********************
THE IRONY OF THIS WOULD BE TOTALLY LOST ON THE FOLKS
BELOW:
church excommunicates democrats
http://dailykos.com/story/2005/5/5/211218/4946
******************
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Church-Politics.html?pagewanted=print
May 7, 2005
Democrats Voted Out of Baptist Church
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 9:51 a.m. ET
WAYNESVILLE, N.C. (AP) -- Some in Pastor Chan Chandler's flock wish he had
a little less zeal for the GOP. Members of the small East Waynesville
Baptist Church say Chandler led an effort to kick out congregants who
didn't support President Bush. Nine members were voted out at a Monday
church meeting in this mountain town, about 120 miles west of Charlotte.
''He's the kind of pastor who says do it my way or get out,'' said Selma
Morris, the former church treasurer. ''He's real negative all the time.''
Chandler didn't return a message left by The Associated Press at his home
Friday, and several calls to the church went unanswered. He told WLOS-TV in
Asheville that the actions were not politically motivated.
The station also reported that 40 others in the 400-member congregation
resigned in protest after Monday's vote.
During the presidential election last year, Chandler told the congregation
that anyone who planned to vote for Democratic Sen. John Kerry should
either leave the church or repent, said former member Lorene Sutton.
Some church members left after Chandler made his ultimatum in October,
Morris said.
George Bullard, associate executive director-treasurer for Baptist State
Convention of North Carolina, told the Asheville Citizen-Times that a
pastor has every right to disallow memberships if a church's bylaws allow
for the pastor to establish criteria for membership.
''Membership is a local church issue,'' he said. ''It is not something the
state convention would enter into.''
He added that the nine members were not legally terminated because Monday's
meeting was supposed to be a deacons meeting, not a business meeting. They
have a lawyer looking into the situation, he said.
The head of the North Carolina Democratic Party sharply criticized the
pastor Friday, saying Chandler jeopardized his church's tax-free status by
openly supporting a candidate for president.
''If these reports are true, this minister is not only acting extremely
inappropriately by injecting partisan politics into a house of worship, but
he is also potentially breaking the law,'' Chairman Jerry Meek said.
Doris Wilson, one of Chandler's neighbors and a member of First Baptist
Church in Waynesville, said God doesn't play partisan politics.
''I hate to see the church suffer like that,'' she said. ''God doesn't care
whether you're a Republican or a Democrat. It just hurts to see that going
on.''
****************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v.
Eisner,256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes,
J.).Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir.
1992)
*****************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.co m/~candst/index.html
[and the discussion group for the above site listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
Oh the Irony
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
08 May 2005 04:46:39 PM |
|
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"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively indignant
about a church doing it?
"ideological perspective" is one thing. Requiring support for a
particular candidate in an election in grounds to lose their tax
exemption.
News organizations are for-profit corporations, so they can quash
dissent in the ranks all they want.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
08 May 2005 05:17:28 PM |
|
|
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:u02t7153uns6ioq56aj5mcgckkaso3lkcj@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively indignant
about a church doing it?
"ideological perspective" is one thing. Requiring support for a
particular candidate in an election in grounds to lose their tax
exemption.
News organizations are for-profit corporations, so they can quash
dissent in the ranks all they want.
How about colleges and universities?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Larry Hewitt" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
08 May 2005 07:58:04 PM |
|
|
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ydwfe.10393$BE3.316@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:u02t7153uns6ioq56aj5mcgckkaso3lkcj@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
"ideological perspective" is one thing. Requiring support for a
particular candidate in an election in grounds to lose their tax
exemption.
News organizations are for-profit corporations, so they can quash
dissent in the ranks all they want.
How about colleges and universities?
\\\
Right wing lies. Don;t happen. See David Horowitz fiasco about Univ of
Colorado in particular. Every specific charge has been deinked. Most charges
are too nebulous to identify.
Larry
.
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| User: "Stan de SD" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
10 May 2005 05:23:04 PM |
|
|
"Larry Hewitt" <larryhewi@comporium.net> wrote in message
news:d5mcgg$85f$1@news3.infoave.net...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ydwfe.10393$BE3.316@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:u02t7153uns6ioq56aj5mcgckkaso3lkcj@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share
their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
"ideological perspective" is one thing. Requiring support for a
particular candidate in an election in grounds to lose their tax
exemption.
News organizations are for-profit corporations, so they can quash
dissent in the ranks all they want.
How about colleges and universities?
\\\
Right wing lies. Don;t happen.
Based on whose assertion? Yours?
.
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| User: "Larry Hewitt" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
10 May 2005 07:18:33 PM |
|
|
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cvage.632$OU1.189@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Larry Hewitt" <larryhewi@comporium.net> wrote in message
news:d5mcgg$85f$1@news3.infoave.net...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ydwfe.10393$BE3.316@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:u02t7153uns6ioq56aj5mcgckkaso3lkcj@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share
their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
"ideological perspective" is one thing. Requiring support for a
particular candidate in an election in grounds to lose their tax
exemption.
News organizations are for-profit corporations, so they can quash
dissent in the ranks all they want.
How about colleges and universities?
\\\
Right wing lies. Don;t happen.
Based on whose assertion? Yours?
Based on the reports of oincvestigationd of the right wing lioars, like the
report about David Horowitz's self-acknowledged lie about the Unov of
Colorado "bias" that wan;t.
Show me one. You cannot.
larry
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
11 May 2005 01:44:29 AM |
|
|
Larry Hewitt wrote:
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cvage.632$OU1.189@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Larry Hewitt" <larryhewi@comporium.net> wrote in message
news:d5mcgg$85f$1@news3.infoave.net...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ydwfe.10393$BE3.316@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:u02t7153uns6ioq56aj5mcgckkaso3lkcj@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share
their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
"ideological perspective" is one thing. Requiring support for a
particular candidate in an election in grounds to lose their tax
exemption.
News organizations are for-profit corporations, so they can quash
dissent in the ranks all they want.
How about colleges and universities?
\\\
Right wing lies. Don;t happen.
Based on whose assertion? Yours?
Based on the reports of oincvestigationd of the right wing lioars, like the
report about David Horowitz's self-acknowledged lie about the Unov of
Colorado "bias" that wan;t.
Show me one. You cannot.
larry
may I suggest you use a spellchecker, looks like you really need one.
.
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| User: "japm" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
10 May 2005 06:40:56 PM |
|
|
"Larry Hewitt" <larryhewi@comporium.net> wrote in message
news:d5mcgg$85f$1@news3.infoave.net...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ydwfe.10393$BE3.316@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:u02t7153uns6ioq56aj5mcgckkaso3lkcj@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
"ideological perspective" is one thing. Requiring support for a
particular candidate in an election in grounds to lose their tax
exemption.
News organizations are for-profit corporations, so they can quash
dissent in the ranks all they want.
How about colleges and universities?
\\\
Right wing lies. Don;t happen. See David Horowitz fiasco about Univ of
Colorado in particular. Every specific charge has been deinked. Most
charges
are too nebulous to identify.
Larry
It does happen to some degree, although Horowitz, the most vocal source,
isn't the most reliable source--he tends to seek out sensational stories
(and twist facts to further sensationalize; see his work on the Foothill
College case) rather than looking seriously at sincere cases of student
harrassment. He does the entire debate a disservice, in my opinion. That
being said, the "liberals rule on campuses" thesis doesn't prove that
conservative students are subjected to rampant harrassment.
Of course, again, my opinion only. And some experience. cheers.
.
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| User: "Larry Hewitt" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
10 May 2005 07:44:56 PM |
|
|
"japm" <nothere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cEbge.632$r7.258@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Larry Hewitt" <larryhewi@comporium.net> wrote in message
news:d5mcgg$85f$1@news3.infoave.net...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ydwfe.10393$BE3.316@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:u02t7153uns6ioq56aj5mcgckkaso3lkcj@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share
their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
"ideological perspective" is one thing. Requiring support for a
particular candidate in an election in grounds to lose their tax
exemption.
News organizations are for-profit corporations, so they can quash
dissent in the ranks all they want.
How about colleges and universities?
\\\
Right wing lies. Don;t happen. See David Horowitz fiasco about Univ of
Colorado in particular. Every specific charge has been deinked. Most
charges
are too nebulous to identify.
Larry
It does happen to some degree, although Horowitz, the most vocal source,
isn't the most reliable source--he tends to seek out sensational stories
(and twist facts to further sensationalize; see his work on the Foothill
College case) rather than looking seriously at sincere cases of student
harrassment. He does the entire debate a disservice, in my opinion. That
being said, the "liberals rule on campuses" thesis doesn't prove that
conservative students are subjected to rampant harrassment.
Of course, again, my opinion only. And some experience. cheers.
I'dlove to see an example.
MY experience hhas been that every allegation has been proven to be either
an unsupported --- even fabricated --- charge or a case whee the student has
behaved improperly.
One of my favorites was the book that incoming fresshman were to read at UNC
a couple of years ago --- soem excerpts from the Koran and a discussion of
Islam. A handful of extreme right wong christian fundamentalists sued,
claiming that the university was promoting Islam. In reality, it was part of
the multi-cultural awareness curriculum. All students were made aware of the
program. and all agreed to participate as a condition for acceptance. Yet a
few dozen refused. And rather than toss their sorry butts out of the
university for dospaying _exactly_ the characteristics the university DID
NOT want and for refusing to do an assignemtn these rightard got to choose a
book on chritianity and write abook report on it instead of participating
in the disussion program.
Shoudl have been thrown out. Universities are there to ope minds. If you
doinlt want an poen mind, stay home.\
Larry
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| User: "japm" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
10 May 2005 08:51:23 PM |
|
|
"Larry Hewitt" <larryhewi@comporium.net> wrote in message
news:d5rkfu$30it$1@news3.infoave.net...
"japm" <nothere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cEbge.632$r7.258@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Larry Hewitt" <larryhewi@comporium.net> wrote in message
news:d5mcgg$85f$1@news3.infoave.net...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ydwfe.10393$BE3.316@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:u02t7153uns6ioq56aj5mcgckkaso3lkcj@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share
their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
"ideological perspective" is one thing. Requiring support for a
particular candidate in an election in grounds to lose their tax
exemption.
News organizations are for-profit corporations, so they can quash
dissent in the ranks all they want.
How about colleges and universities?
\\\
Right wing lies. Don;t happen. See David Horowitz fiasco about Univ of
Colorado in particular. Every specific charge has been deinked. Most
charges
are too nebulous to identify.
Larry
It does happen to some degree, although Horowitz, the most vocal source,
isn't the most reliable source--he tends to seek out sensational stories
(and twist facts to further sensationalize; see his work on the Foothill
College case) rather than looking seriously at sincere cases of student
harrassment. He does the entire debate a disservice, in my opinion. That
being said, the "liberals rule on campuses" thesis doesn't prove that
conservative students are subjected to rampant harrassment.
Of course, again, my opinion only. And some experience. cheers.
I'dlove to see an example.
I'm actually working on a project concerning this issue; if you're
interested, I can send out a copy of my findings.
MY experience hhas been that every allegation has been proven to be either
an unsupported --- even fabricated --- charge or a case whee the student
has
behaved improperly.
Certainly, but we tend to hear about the high-profile cases that tend to be,
in my experience, concoted for the media. In real situations, unless the
problem is widespread throughout an institution, the media tends not to pick
up on it. Also, many students go quietly, for as with any harrassment anger
is mingled with some kind of embarrassment or even shame. Also, conservative
students aren't always the strident fanatics you might be used to hearing
about (the ones who reject the assigned topic, for example, and write on
something off-topic instead, as in the infamous, debunked Horowitz "George
Bush is a war criminal essay" story).
One of my favorites was the book that incoming fresshman were to read at
UNC
a couple of years ago --- soem excerpts from the Koran and a discussion of
Islam. A handful of extreme right wong christian fundamentalists sued,
claiming that the university was promoting Islam. In reality, it was part
of
the multi-cultural awareness curriculum. All students were made aware of
the
program. and all agreed to participate as a condition for acceptance. Yet
a
few dozen refused. And rather than toss their sorry butts out of the
university for dospaying _exactly_ the characteristics the university DID
NOT want and for refusing to do an assignemtn these rightard got to choose
a
book on chritianity and write abook report on it instead of participating
in the disussion program.
Shoudl have been thrown out. Universities are there to ope minds. If you
doinlt want an poen mind, stay home.\
I agree. Again, this is one of those cases which, I believe, was created for
publicity rather than anything else (why else agree to the university's
terms?). It's when debate is stifled that universities die. Refusing to
participate in a course that exposes other perspectives indicates a refusal
to engage in debate. What do you learn if you only listen to one point of
view?
Larry
.
|
|
|
| User: "Larry Hewitt" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
11 May 2005 10:02:20 AM |
|
|
"japm" <nothere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:vydge.748$r7.226@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Larry Hewitt" <larryhewi@comporium.net> wrote in message
news:d5rkfu$30it$1@news3.infoave.net...
"japm" <nothere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cEbge.632$r7.258@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Larry Hewitt" <larryhewi@comporium.net> wrote in message
news:d5mcgg$85f$1@news3.infoave.net...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ydwfe.10393$BE3.316@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:u02t7153uns6ioq56aj5mcgckkaso3lkcj@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share
their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
"ideological perspective" is one thing. Requiring support for a
particular candidate in an election in grounds to lose their tax
exemption.
News organizations are for-profit corporations, so they can quash
dissent in the ranks all they want.
How about colleges and universities?
\\\
Right wing lies. Don;t happen. See David Horowitz fiasco about Univ
of
Colorado in particular. Every specific charge has been deinked. Most
charges
are too nebulous to identify.
Larry
It does happen to some degree, although Horowitz, the most vocal
source,
isn't the most reliable source--he tends to seek out sensational
stories
(and twist facts to further sensationalize; see his work on the
Foothill
College case) rather than looking seriously at sincere cases of student
harrassment. He does the entire debate a disservice, in my opinion.
That
being said, the "liberals rule on campuses" thesis doesn't prove that
conservative students are subjected to rampant harrassment.
Of course, again, my opinion only. And some experience. cheers.
I'dlove to see an example.
I'm actually working on a project concerning this issue; if you're
interested, I can send out a copy of my findings.
I'd be interested in it if it is not a magnum opus (huge).
MY experience hhas been that every allegation has been proven to be
either
an unsupported --- even fabricated --- charge or a case whee the student
has
behaved improperly.
Certainly, but we tend to hear about the high-profile cases that tend to
be,
in my experience, concoted for the media. In real situations, unless the
problem is widespread throughout an institution, the media tends not to
pick
up on it. Also, many students go quietly, for as with any harrassment
anger
is mingled with some kind of embarrassment or even shame. Also,
conservative
students aren't always the strident fanatics you might be used to hearing
about (the ones who reject the assigned topic, for example, and write on
something off-topic instead, as in the infamous, debunked Horowitz "George
Bush is a war criminal essay" story).
This is almost a circular definiton. If the "incidents" ae so low key or so
inoffensive that they are not worthy of notice then how can they be defined
as an incident.
BTW, In mt personal experience the christian right is far more intrusive. A
local community college has banned card playing on campus in response to
complaints from the baptist student association, and held daily religous
services in the student union. The majority of the student body was
offended, but not to the point of raising a legal stink (there were letters
to the administration).
I took a course on science writing where we examined non-fiction writing
through the ages (Greeks to Scientific American). One of the books we
evaluated was Origin of the Species. Now, mind you, this was an English
class and we were evaluating writing style, not content. The professor spent
an entire class talking about intelligent design, raising problems with
evolution, and arguing with Darwin. This as the only one of 2 dozen works we
evaluated that we discussed content for more than a few minutes to introduce
the work. But because he did not use the three letter word he could get away
with it.
BTW, the card thing triggered a memory. I taught a probability unit in a
freshman math course that used cards as tools for examining experimental and
theoretical probabilty. But a large part of the regional population believes
that card playing is a sin, and 3 or 4 students in each class had no idea
what a deck of playing cards looked like. One protested on religious
gorinds, but the university won because they had a multicultural approach to
teaching and because the students were not playing a card game, but
performing mathematical experiments.
This is _exactly_ my point. The right seems to consider a mind-expanding
experience, or being forced to do something they do not agree with as an
affront and an actional offense. The left boils and takes it, understanding
the world is diverse and that we need to expand our minds. I still
thoroughly disagree with ID, but I gained an understanding of the fiction
they promote.
One of my favorites was the book that incoming fresshman were to read at
UNC
a couple of years ago --- soem excerpts from the Koran and a discussion
of
Islam. A handful of extreme right wong christian fundamentalists sued,
claiming that the university was promoting Islam. In reality, it was
part
of
the multi-cultural awareness curriculum. All students were made aware of
the
program. and all agreed to participate as a condition for acceptance.
Yet
a
few dozen refused. And rather than toss their sorry butts out of the
university for dospaying _exactly_ the characteristics the university
DID
NOT want and for refusing to do an assignemtn these rightard got to
choose
a
book on chritianity and write abook report on it instead of
participating
in the disussion program.
Shoudl have been thrown out. Universities are there to ope minds. If you
doinlt want an poen mind, stay home.\
I agree. Again, this is one of those cases which, I believe, was created
for
publicity rather than anything else (why else agree to the university's
terms?). It's when debate is stifled that universities die. Refusing to
participate in a course that exposes other perspectives indicates a
refusal
to engage in debate. What do you learn if you only listen to one point of
view?
Right on the money.
And that is my problem with all of these complaints. They seem to be "made
for tv" in an attempt to stifle debate.
larry
Larry
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
11 May 2005 02:44:23 PM |
|
|
japm wrote:
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't
share their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
"ideological perspective" is one thing. Requiring support for a
particular candidate in an election in grounds to lose their tax
exemption.
News organizations are for-profit corporations, so they can
quash
dissent in the ranks all they want.
How about colleges and universities?
\\\
Right wing lies. Don;t happen. See David Horowitz fiasco about Univ
of
Colorado in particular. Every specific charge has been deinked.
Most
charges
are too nebulous to identify.
Larry
It does happen to some degree, although Horowitz, the most vocal
source,
isn't the most reliable source--he tends to seek out sensational
stories
(and twist facts to further sensationalize; see his work on the
Foothill
College case) rather than looking seriously at sincere cases of
student
harrassment. He does the entire debate a disservice, in my opinion.
That
being said, the "liberals rule on campuses" thesis doesn't prove that
conservative students are subjected to rampant harrassment.
Of course, again, my opinion only. And some experience. cheers.
I'd be happy if these neocons would come up with a more
original excuse. They also claim the "liberal media". The
problem with this is, a liberal media would've questioned
Bush's claims that Saddam Hussein had WMDs. A liberal media
would've paid more attention to Enron. A liberal media
certainly wouldn't be talking about terrorists 4 years after
9/11.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Dale" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
08 May 2005 06:56:38 PM |
|
|
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ydwfe.10393$BE3.316@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:u02t7153uns6ioq56aj5mcgckkaso3lkcj@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
"ideological perspective" is one thing. Requiring support for a
particular candidate in an election in grounds to lose their tax
exemption.
News organizations are for-profit corporations, so they can quash
dissent in the ranks all they want.
How about colleges and universities?
You do know there are private colleges and universities, don't you?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Stan de SD" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
10 May 2005 05:22:30 PM |
|
|
"Dale" <dmgreer@nspm.airmail.net> wrote in message
news:WGxfe.73$sb5.41@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ydwfe.10393$BE3.316@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:u02t7153uns6ioq56aj5mcgckkaso3lkcj@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share
their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
"ideological perspective" is one thing. Requiring support for a
particular candidate in an election in grounds to lose their tax
exemption.
News organizations are for-profit corporations, so they can quash
dissent in the ranks all they want.
How about colleges and universities?
You do know there are private colleges and universities, don't you?
And you do know that there are publicly funded ones as well, right?
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
09 May 2005 02:28:41 PM |
|
|
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" < > wrote in message
news:u02t7153uns6ioq56aj5mcgckkaso3lkcj@4ax.com...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively indignant
about a church doing it?
"ideological perspective" is one thing. Requiring support for a
particular candidate in an election in grounds to lose their tax
exemption.
News organizations are for-profit corporations, so they can quash
dissent in the ranks all they want.
How about colleges and universities?
Depends on their charter and legal status. I could not make an
supportable generalization about them, so I didn't.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Curly Surmudgeon" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
08 May 2005 03:59:26 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 08 May 2005 20:41:44 +0000, Stan de SD wrote:
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:fpms71hnvfum2dnfcfatp46f04vaeh0inu@4ax.com...
church excommunicates democrats
http://dailykos.com/story/2005/5/5/211218/4946
****************************************************************************
*************
This of course marks exhibit 1,098,672 that supports the charge that the
Bush administration and its religious far-right allies are all about
crushing all freedom of conscience and imposing a stultifying totalitarian
theocracy that tolerates absolutely no dissent. As I have mentioned
elsewhere, we are not merely dealing with one or two pieces of evidence
pointing in this direction that can easily be dismissed as unduly
alarmist,
we are dealing with the convergence of a great deal of disparate pieces of
evidence - all pointing in the sawm direction - that cannot be so easily
dismissed.
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively indignant
about a church doing it?
Most probably because of the church's tax-free exemption. You can't do
that with public money.
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://curlysurmudgeon.com/weird/political
------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
|
|
|
| User: "Stan de SD" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
08 May 2005 04:18:55 PM |
|
|
"Curly Surmudgeon" <curly@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.05.08.20.59.25.724945@curlysurmudgeon.com...
On Sun, 08 May 2005 20:41:44 +0000, Stan de SD wrote:
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:fpms71hnvfum2dnfcfatp46f04vaeh0inu@4ax.com...
church excommunicates democrats
http://dailykos.com/story/2005/5/5/211218/4946
****************************************************************************
*************
This of course marks exhibit 1,098,672 that supports the charge that
the
Bush administration and its religious far-right allies are all about
crushing all freedom of conscience and imposing a stultifying
totalitarian
theocracy that tolerates absolutely no dissent. As I have mentioned
elsewhere, we are not merely dealing with one or two pieces of evidence
pointing in this direction that can easily be dismissed as unduly
alarmist,
we are dealing with the convergence of a great deal of disparate pieces
of
evidence - all pointing in the sawm direction - that cannot be so
easily
dismissed.
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively indignant
about a church doing it?
Most probably because of the church's tax-free exemption. You can't do
that with public money.
Aren't universities even worse, given that they are recipients of taxpayer's
money? They regularly refuse to hire and deny tenure to individuals solely
based on their political views, yet I don't hear a lot of whining and crying
from the left about that...
.
|
|
|
| User: "Larry Hewitt" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
08 May 2005 07:54:19 PM |
|
|
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3nvfe.10368$BE3.9135@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Curly Surmudgeon" <curly@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.05.08.20.59.25.724945@curlysurmudgeon.com...
On Sun, 08 May 2005 20:41:44 +0000, Stan de SD wrote:
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:fpms71hnvfum2dnfcfatp46f04vaeh0inu@4ax.com...
church excommunicates democrats
http://dailykos.com/story/2005/5/5/211218/4946
****************************************************************************
*************
This of course marks exhibit 1,098,672 that supports the charge that
the
Bush administration and its religious far-right allies are all about
crushing all freedom of conscience and imposing a stultifying
totalitarian
theocracy that tolerates absolutely no dissent. As I have mentioned
elsewhere, we are not merely dealing with one or two pieces of
evidence
pointing in this direction that can easily be dismissed as unduly
alarmist,
we are dealing with the convergence of a great deal of disparate
pieces
of
evidence - all pointing in the sawm direction - that cannot be so
easily
dismissed.
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
Most probably because of the church's tax-free exemption. You can't do
that with public money.
Aren't universities even worse, given that they are recipients of
taxpayer's
money? They regularly refuse to hire and deny tenure to individuals solely
based on their political views, yet I don't hear a lot of whining and
crying
from the left about that...
This does not happen. There are a few rightard demagigues who keep making
these baseless charges, but they end up being a tempest in a tepot whem
closely examined.
Promionent among these demoagogues is David Horowitz, who recently charged
tha tpolitics interfered with the grading of exams, negatively impacting a
particular student's grade.
Horowitz got this so wrong, and his story stank so badly that Horowitz even
apologized on his web site. Oh, he continues to make charges, he just no
longer makes _specific_ charges.
http://www.mediatransparency.org/people/david_horowitz.htm
Larry
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Dale" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
08 May 2005 06:55:54 PM |
|
|
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3nvfe.10368$BE3.9135@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
[...]
Aren't universities even worse, given that they are recipients of
taxpayer's
money? They regularly refuse to hire and deny tenure to individuals solely
based on their political views, yet I don't hear a lot of whining and
crying
from the left about that...
This smells like a lie to me. It's one of those things someone can easily
say without any proof, and yet all the right-wingers will nod in agreement
as if they all know it's true.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Jeff Welch" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
08 May 2005 09:46:47 PM |
|
|
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3nvfe.10368$BE3.9135@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Aren't universities even worse, given that they are recipients of
taxpayer's
money?
In what cases are people in universities being thrown out because of their
political beliefs?
They regularly refuse to hire and deny tenure to individuals solely
based on their political views
No they don't.
-Jeff
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Curly Surmudgeon" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats |
08 May 2005 05:03:03 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 08 May 2005 21:18:55 +0000, Stan de SD wrote:
"Curly Surmudgeon" <curly@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.05.08.20.59.25.724945@curlysurmudgeon.com...
On Sun, 08 May 2005 20:41:44 +0000, Stan de SD wrote:
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:fpms71hnvfum2dnfcfatp46f04vaeh0inu@4ax.com...
church excommunicates democrats
http://dailykos.com/story/2005/5/5/211218/4946
****************************************************************************
*************
This of course marks exhibit 1,098,672 that supports the charge that
the
Bush administration and its religious far-right allies are all about
crushing all freedom of conscience and imposing a stultifying
totalitarian
theocracy that tolerates absolutely no dissent. As I have mentioned
elsewhere, we are not merely dealing with one or two pieces of evidence
pointing in this direction that can easily be dismissed as unduly
alarmist,
we are dealing with the convergence of a great deal of disparate pieces
of
evidence - all pointing in the sawm direction - that cannot be so
easily
dismissed.
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively indignant
about a church doing it?
Most probably because of the church's tax-free exemption. You can't do
that with public money.
Aren't universities even worse, given that they are recipients of taxpayer's
money? They regularly refuse to hire and deny tenure to individuals solely
based on their political views, yet I don't hear a lot of whining and crying
from the left about that...
Have you ever heard of a student denied admission because of their choice
for a particular office?
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://curlysurmudgeon.com/weird/political
------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
|
|
|
| User: "Stan de SD" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats, universities excommunicate conservatives - so what's new? |
08 May 2005 05:16:56 PM |
|
|
"Curly Surmudgeon" <curly@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.05.08.22.03.01.797654@curlysurmudgeon.com...
On Sun, 08 May 2005 21:18:55 +0000, Stan de SD wrote:
"Curly Surmudgeon" <curly@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.05.08.20.59.25.724945@curlysurmudgeon.com...
On Sun, 08 May 2005 20:41:44 +0000, Stan de SD wrote:
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:fpms71hnvfum2dnfcfatp46f04vaeh0inu@4ax.com...
church excommunicates democrats
http://dailykos.com/story/2005/5/5/211218/4946
****************************************************************************
*************
This of course marks exhibit 1,098,672 that supports the charge that
the
Bush administration and its religious far-right allies are all about
crushing all freedom of conscience and imposing a stultifying
totalitarian
theocracy that tolerates absolutely no dissent. As I have mentioned
elsewhere, we are not merely dealing with one or two pieces of
evidence
pointing in this direction that can easily be dismissed as unduly
alarmist,
we are dealing with the convergence of a great deal of disparate
pieces
of
evidence - all pointing in the sawm direction - that cannot be so
easily
dismissed.
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share
their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
Most probably because of the church's tax-free exemption. You can't do
that with public money.
Aren't universities even worse, given that they are recipients of
taxpayer's
money? They regularly refuse to hire and deny tenure to individuals
solely
based on their political views, yet I don't hear a lot of whining and
crying
from the left about that...
Have you ever heard of a student denied admission because of their choice
for a particular office?
I have witness plenty of harrassment of students at the undergraduate level,
at both Cal Berkeley and community colleges in CA, simply because they did
not accept the teacher's political prejudices injected inappropriately in a
classroom. I once attended an English Lit class at a community college where
I was kicked out after 5 weeks even though I had an "A" in the class. The
teacher would regularly make leftist political statements not related to the
curriculum, and I would remind him of that.
Colleges and universities are notorious for harrassing and persecuting those
whose political opinions do not fit their ultra-left PC orthodoxy. I find it
humorous that so-called academics and civil libertarians are up in arms
about some church excommunicating members who don't conform politically when
their own pet instituions do the same ***** all the time - and at least the
churches aren't supported by the taxpayers...
.
|
|
|
| User: "japm" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats, universities excommunicate conservatives - so what's new? |
09 May 2005 12:33:36 AM |
|
|
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:sdwfe.10392$BE3.2475@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Curly Surmudgeon" <curly@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.05.08.22.03.01.797654@curlysurmudgeon.com...
On Sun, 08 May 2005 21:18:55 +0000, Stan de SD wrote:
"Curly Surmudgeon" <curly@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.05.08.20.59.25.724945@curlysurmudgeon.com...
On Sun, 08 May 2005 20:41:44 +0000, Stan de SD wrote:
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:fpms71hnvfum2dnfcfatp46f04vaeh0inu@4ax.com...
church excommunicates democrats
http://dailykos.com/story/2005/5/5/211218/4946
****************************************************************************
*************
This of course marks exhibit 1,098,672 that supports the charge
that
the
Bush administration and its religious far-right allies are all
about
crushing all freedom of conscience and imposing a stultifying
totalitarian
theocracy that tolerates absolutely no dissent. As I have mentioned
elsewhere, we are not merely dealing with one or two pieces of
evidence
pointing in this direction that can easily be dismissed as unduly
alarmist,
we are dealing with the convergence of a great deal of disparate
pieces
of
evidence - all pointing in the sawm direction - that cannot be so
easily
dismissed.
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share
their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
Most probably because of the church's tax-free exemption. You can't
do
that with public money.
Aren't universities even worse, given that they are recipients of
taxpayer's
money? They regularly refuse to hire and deny tenure to individuals
solely
based on their political views, yet I don't hear a lot of whining and
crying
from the left about that...
Have you ever heard of a student denied admission because of their choice
for a particular office?
I have witness plenty of harrassment of students at the undergraduate
level,
at both Cal Berkeley and community colleges in CA, simply because they did
not accept the teacher's political prejudices injected inappropriately in
a
classroom. I once attended an English Lit class at a community college
where
I was kicked out after 5 weeks even though I had an "A" in the class. The
teacher would regularly make leftist political statements not related to
the
curriculum, and I would remind him of that.
<snip>
What justification was offered for kicking you out?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Stan de SD" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats, universities excommunicate conservatives - so what's new? |
09 May 2005 11:23:32 AM |
|
|
"japm" <nothere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:QCCfe.10543$BE3.5901@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:sdwfe.10392$BE3.2475@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Curly Surmudgeon" <curly@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.05.08.22.03.01.797654@curlysurmudgeon.com...
On Sun, 08 May 2005 21:18:55 +0000, Stan de SD wrote:
"Curly Surmudgeon" <curly@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.05.08.20.59.25.724945@curlysurmudgeon.com...
On Sun, 08 May 2005 20:41:44 +0000, Stan de SD wrote:
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:fpms71hnvfum2dnfcfatp46f04vaeh0inu@4ax.com...
church excommunicates democrats
http://dailykos.com/story/2005/5/5/211218/4946
****************************************************************************
*************
This of course marks exhibit 1,098,672 that supports the charge
that
the
Bush administration and its religious far-right allies are all
about
crushing all freedom of conscience and imposing a stultifying
totalitarian
theocracy that tolerates absolutely no dissent. As I have
mentioned
elsewhere, we are not merely dealing with one or two pieces of
evidence
pointing in this direction that can easily be dismissed as unduly
alarmist,
we are dealing with the convergence of a great deal of disparate
pieces
of
evidence - all pointing in the sawm direction - that cannot be so
easily
dismissed.
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share
their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
Most probably because of the church's tax-free exemption. You can't
do
that with public money.
Aren't universities even worse, given that they are recipients of
taxpayer's
money? They regularly refuse to hire and deny tenure to individuals
solely
based on their political views, yet I don't hear a lot of whining and
crying
from the left about that...
Have you ever heard of a student denied admission because of their
choice
for a particular office?
I have witness plenty of harrassment of students at the undergraduate
level,
at both Cal Berkeley and community colleges in CA, simply because they
did
not accept the teacher's political prejudices injected inappropriately
in
a
classroom. I once attended an English Lit class at a community college
where
I was kicked out after 5 weeks even though I had an "A" in the class.
The
teacher would regularly make leftist political statements not related to
the
curriculum, and I would remind him of that.
<snip>
What justification was offered for kicking you out?
I was allegedly "disruptive". When I spoke to another instructor about the
matter, he laughed and said "ever been to his office and seen the big poster
of Karl Marx on his door?"
.
|
|
|
| User: "japm" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats, universities excommunicate conservatives - so what's new? |
09 May 2005 05:53:46 PM |
|
|
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:88Mfe.141$2u5.92@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"japm" <nothere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:QCCfe.10543$BE3.5901@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:sdwfe.10392$BE3.2475@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Curly Surmudgeon" <curly@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.05.08.22.03.01.797654@curlysurmudgeon.com...
On Sun, 08 May 2005 21:18:55 +0000, Stan de SD wrote:
"Curly Surmudgeon" <curly@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.05.08.20.59.25.724945@curlysurmudgeon.com...
On Sun, 08 May 2005 20:41:44 +0000, Stan de SD wrote:
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:fpms71hnvfum2dnfcfatp46f04vaeh0inu@4ax.com...
church excommunicates democrats
http://dailykos.com/story/2005/5/5/211218/4946
****************************************************************************
*************
This of course marks exhibit 1,098,672 that supports the charge
that
the
Bush administration and its religious far-right allies are all
about
crushing all freedom of conscience and imposing a stultifying
totalitarian
theocracy that tolerates absolutely no dissent. As I have
mentioned
elsewhere, we are not merely dealing with one or two pieces of
evidence
pointing in this direction that can easily be dismissed as
unduly
alarmist,
we are dealing with the convergence of a great deal of disparate
pieces
of
evidence - all pointing in the sawm direction - that cannot be
so
easily
dismissed.
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't share
their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
Most probably because of the church's tax-free exemption. You
can't
do
that with public money.
Aren't universities even worse, given that they are recipients of
taxpayer's
money? They regularly refuse to hire and deny tenure to individuals
solely
based on their political views, yet I don't hear a lot of whining
and
crying
from the left about that...
Have you ever heard of a student denied admission because of their
choice
for a particular office?
I have witness plenty of harrassment of students at the undergraduate
level,
at both Cal Berkeley and community colleges in CA, simply because they
did
not accept the teacher's political prejudices injected inappropriately
in
a
classroom. I once attended an English Lit class at a community college
where
I was kicked out after 5 weeks even though I had an "A" in the class.
The
teacher would regularly make leftist political statements not related
to
the
curriculum, and I would remind him of that.
<snip>
What justification was offered for kicking you out?
I was allegedly "disruptive". When I spoke to another instructor about the
matter, he laughed and said "ever been to his office and seen the big
poster
of Karl Marx on his door?"
How long ago was this, and what kind of procedure was followed?
I ask because it is typically not policy to kick disruptive students out of
a higher-ed course. One might be encouraged to leave, but even that is
dodgy. It would involve quite a bit of mediation between the student, the
instructor, and admin. Students can (and do) sue.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Stan de SD" |
|
| Title: Re: church excommunicates democrats, universities excommunicate conservatives - so what's new? |
10 May 2005 04:45:22 PM |
|
|
"japm" <nothere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:_RRfe.166$r7.132@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:88Mfe.141$2u5.92@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"japm" <nothere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:QCCfe.10543$BE3.5901@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:sdwfe.10392$BE3.2475@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Curly Surmudgeon" <curly@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.05.08.22.03.01.797654@curlysurmudgeon.com...
On Sun, 08 May 2005 21:18:55 +0000, Stan de SD wrote:
"Curly Surmudgeon" <curly@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.05.08.20.59.25.724945@curlysurmudgeon.com...
On Sun, 08 May 2005 20:41:44 +0000, Stan de SD wrote:
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:fpms71hnvfum2dnfcfatp46f04vaeh0inu@4ax.com...
church excommunicates democrats
http://dailykos.com/story/2005/5/5/211218/4946
****************************************************************************
*************
This of course marks exhibit 1,098,672 that supports the
charge
that
the
Bush administration and its religious far-right allies are all
about
crushing all freedom of conscience and imposing a stultifying
totalitarian
theocracy that tolerates absolutely no dissent. As I have
mentioned
elsewhere, we are not merely dealing with one or two pieces of
evidence
pointing in this direction that can easily be dismissed as
unduly
alarmist,
we are dealing with the convergence of a great deal of
disparate
pieces
of
evidence - all pointing in the sawm direction - that cannot be
so
easily
dismissed.
Colleges and news organizations kick out people that don't
share
their
ideological perspectives all the time. Why are you selectively
indignant
about a church doing it?
Most probably because of the church's tax-free exemption. You
can't
do
that with public money.
Aren't universities even worse, given that they are recipients of
taxpayer's
money? They regularly refuse to hire and deny tenure to
individuals
solely
based on their political views, yet I don't hear a lot of whining
and
crying
from the left about that...
Have you ever heard of a student denied admission becaus | | | | | | | | | |
