Court Allows Church to Rent Space in Public Schools

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Topic:	Sociology > Education
User:	""
Date:	28 Nov 2005 04:42:52 AM
Object:	Court Allows Church to Rent Space in Public Schools

Court Allows Church to Rent Space in Public Schools
http://www.christianpost.com/article/society/2029/section/court.allows.church.to.rent.space.in.public.schools/1.htm
Christian Post - San Francisco,CA,USA
Saturday, Nov. 26, 2005 Posted: 12:11:25PM EST
Religious groups may rent spaces in public schools for meetings just as
other organizations can, a federal judge ruled recently.

The decision by Judge Loretta Preska of the Federal District Court in
Manhattan, N.Y., allows the evangelical Bronx Household of Faith church to
rent space in a public school for four hours every Sunday.
“The government may not treat activities that are similar to those
previously permitted as different in kind just because the subject
activities are conducted from a religious perspective," Preska wrote in her
court opinion.
The case of The Bronx Household of Faith v. New York Board of Education
ended with the judge’s decision, which was handed down on Nov. 16 following
a decade-long battle by in the courts.
The Board of Education in New York City did not want the church's presence
in the school, saying that it did not want to be affiliated with a
particular religion and that the church’s presence violated the separation
of church and state. The district said it would immediately appeal the
ruling.
**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Court Allows Church to Rent Space in Public Schools; discussion fails 10th Amendment test	30 Nov 2005 07:54:54 AM

"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:

:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
:|> Court Allows Church to Rent Space in Public Schools
:|> http://www.christianpost.com/article/society/2029/section/court.allows.church.to.rent.space.in.public.schools/1.htm
:|> Christian Post - San Francisco,CA,USA
:|>
:|> Saturday, Nov. 26, 2005 Posted: 12:11:25PM EST
:|>
:|> Religious groups may rent spaces in public schools for meetings just as
:|> other organizations can, a federal judge ruled recently.
:|>
:|> The decision by Judge Loretta Preska of the Federal District Court in
:|> Manhattan, N.Y., allows the evangelical Bronx Household of Faith church to
:|> rent space in a public school for four hours every Sunday.
:|>
:|> "The government may not treat activities that are similar to those
:|> previously permitted as different in kind just because the subject
:|> activities are conducted from a religious perspective," Preska wrote in her
:|> court opinion.
:|>
:|> The case of The Bronx Household of Faith v. New York Board of Education
:|> ended with the judge's decision, which was handed down on Nov. 16 following
:|> a decade-long battle by in the courts.
:|>
:|> The Board of Education in New York City did not want the church's presence
:|> in the school, saying that it did not want to be affiliated with a
:|> particular religion and that the church's presence violated the separation
:|> of church and state. The district said it would immediately appeal the
:|> ruling.
:|
:|Again, Thomas Jefferson, the hero of separationists, atheist and
:|activist judges, not only regularly attended worship services held in
:|the hall of the House of Representatives at the Nation's Capitol,

Now for the rest of the story:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's set the record straight on the matter of Jefferson attending church,
church services held in Congress, Jefferson's conversion to Christianity,
etc.
****************************************************************
Some who opposed Jefferson constricted the meaning of religion to matters
of the church. Ignoring his public professions of faith, David Daggett, a
New Haven lawyer and Federalist, attacked Jefferson for not being a good
church member. "It is a well established fact," Daggett wrote in 1800,
"that Mr. Jefferson never has attended public worship during a residence of
several years in New York and Philadelphia." The writer was unimpressed by
reports that Jefferson had provided financial support for a minister.
Daggett expressed his willingness to give the presidential candidate credit
for such an act only if "he would attend [the preacher's] ministrations and
not confine them to servants."34
34. Connecticutensis, Three Letters to Abraham Bishop (Hartford, 1800),
28-29. 35. Ibid., 29-30. 36. Ibid., 31.
SOURCE: "God-And a Religious President . . . Or Jefferson and No God":
Campaigning for a Voter-Imposed Religious Test in 1800, Frank Lambert, pp
781-82 JOURNAL OF CHURCH AND STATE, VOLUME 39 AUTUMN 1997 NUMBER 4
****************************************************************
Except a small Catholic chapel there was only one church building
in the entire city, [Washington DC] and this tiny wooden sanctuary was
attended by a congregation which seldom exceeded twenty persons.8 This
absence of churches was entirely, in keeping with the inclination of people
of fashion. The first Republican administration came, testifies Winfield
Scott, in "the spring tide of infidelity. . . At school and college, most
bright boys, of that day, affected to regard religion as base superstition
or gross hypocricy." 1
NOTESl
8. This was a little Presbyterian church building, which was
abandoned after 1800. (Bryan, Wilhelmus Bogart, History of the National
Capital from its Foundation through the Period of the Adoption of the
Organic Act. 9. vols. New York. (1914-16) 1, 232; . (Bryan.)and see Hunt
Gaillard, editor. First Forty Years of Washington Society, portrayed by the
Family Letters of Mrs. Samuel Harrison Smith. New York. (1906).13-14
(Hunt.)
1. Memoirs of Lieut: General Scott, 9-10. Among the masses of the
people, however, a profound religious movement was beginning. (See Semple:
History of the Rise and Progress of the Baptists in Virginia; and
Cleveland: Great Revival in the West.)
A year or two later, religious services were held every Sunday
afternoon in the hall of the House of Representatives, which always was
crowded on these occasions. The throng did not come to worship, it appears;
seemingly, the legislative hall was considered to be a convenient
meeting-place for gossip, flirtation, and social gayety. The plan was soon
abandoned and the hall left entirely to profane usages. (Bryan, I, 606-07.)
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: The Life of John Marshall, by Albert J. Beveridge,
Vol. III, Conflict and Construction, 1800-1815 Houghton Mifflin Company
(1919) pp. 6-7
****************************************************************
Received in my email this morning and my reply:
From: "Me You"
To:

Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 19:01:31 +0000
[ "Me You" wrote ]

:|I was wondering if you had ever seen this quote and (if so) if you had a more specific citation.

[ I replied]
Study Guide to Quotes:
Quotes in General
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7a.htm
Problematical Separationist Quotes
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7b.htm
Problematical Religious Right Quotes And Arguments
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7d.htm
[ "Me You" wrote ]

[ I replied]
The above is bogus.
[ "Me You" wrote ]

:|The only variation I've seen is with ellipsis between "freedom in government" and "I am persuaded". Is this another take off of the religion is the foundation of government misquote?

[ I replied]
It is some sort of creation, in part from perhaps some things that
Madison actually had said, and reworked like the above misquote you have
noted.
I have never seen the above quote until the past week. In one of the
newsgroups some nut began posting the above and now you have mentioned it.
I am wondering if this has been out there all along or just a recent
creation.
Where have you found the quote, what sites?
The idiot in the newsgroups won't give a cite for where he found it.
[ "Me You" wrote ]

[ I replied]
"Another local tradition about Jefferson's religious practices can
also be verified by consulting his account books. It is well documented
that, when Jefferson first moved to Washington, he attended services at
Christ Church, then meeting in a converted tobacco barn on the southeast
side of Capitol Hill .'9 The rector of the church, Andrew T. McCormick
(1761-1841), was said to be a favorite of his. 80 McCormick was succeeded
in 1823 by the Reverend Ethan Allen, who claimed in a handwritten history,
"Washington Parish, Washington City," now in the Manuscript Division of the
Library of Congress, that Jefferson "always" sent McCormick "on the morning
after new years a note with $ 50 enclosed in it."81 That this claim is
supported by entries in the president's account book 82 lends plausibility
to an anecdote the Reverend Allen recorded in his history. Jefferson,
according to Allen, was walking to church one Sunday "with his large red
prayer book under his arm when a friend querying him after their mutual
good morning said which way are you walking Mr. Jefferson. To which he
replied to Church Sir. You going to Church Mr. J. You do not believe a word
in it. Sir said Mr. J. No nation has ever yet existed or been governed
without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion
that has been given to man and I as chief Magistrate of this nation am
bound to give it the sanction of my example. Good morning Sir." While this
colloquy may not be a literal transcription, it is uncannily close in
spirit to Jefferson's attitude and actions as president."
80. McCormack, see his obituary in the National Intelligencer, April 28,
1841.
81. Allen's history is in the MMC Collection, 1167, MSS, LC.
82. July 2, 1804, June 3, 1805, January 6, 1807, Account Book, 1804-1826.
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: RELIGION and the Founding of the American Republic.,
James H. Huston. Library of Congress, Washington, (1998) pp. 95-96
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you can see from the above there is no actual cite given. There is an
entry in an account book of Jeffersons with regad to the money
However, that does not constitute a valid cite for a quote. Hutson even
admits that it is a "anecdote" as well as "local tradition." One should be
able to expect better than myth and hearsay from something that bears the
name of Library of Congress.
[ "Me You" wrote ]

:|See the records recently reprinted by James Hutson, Chief of the Manuscript
:|Division of the Library of Congress. Religion and the Founding of the
:|American Republic (Washington, D. C.: Library of Congress, 1998), p. 84

[ I replied]
This is what is found on page 84 of the above named book:
"pruned of the mysterious and miraculous. Such was his passion for privacy
that he never shared his version of the scriptures with anyone; its sole
purpose was to help him work his way toward a better understanding of the
real Christ.33
Jefferson's "conversion" to a minimalist Christianity changed his
opinion of the value of the faith in civil affairs. He was now prepared to
concede what his fellow Founders had been arguing for decades religion
fostered morality and, consequently, had a role to play in a free society.
"The Christian religion," he wrote in 1801, when "brought to the original
purity and simplicity of its benevolent institutor, is a religion of all
others most friendly to liberty." 34 A few years later he informed a
Presbyterian minister that "Reading, reflection and time have convinced me
that the interests of society require the observation of those moral
precepts . . . in which all religions agree."35 Later still, he indicated
that he now agreed with his former opponents that "a future state of
retribution for the evil as well as the good done while here" was a crucial
concept for the promotion of public morality. 36
As president, Jefferson put his rejuvenated faith into practice in
the most conspicuous form of public witness possible, regularly attending
worship services where the delegates of the entire nation could see him in
the "hall" of the House of Representatives. According to recollections of
an early Washington insider, "Jefferson during his whole administration,
was a most regular attendant. The seat he chose the first day sabbath, and
the adjoining one, which his private secretary occupied, were ever after
words by the courtesy of the congregation, left for him." 37 Contemporary
sources confirm that the president "constantly attended public worship in
the Hall," once riding through a cloudburst to get to services on time." 38
There are numerous anecdotes about Jefferson's impact on his fellow
worshipers, including one in 1806 about the wife of a New York senator,
Catharine Mitchill, stepping on the president's foot at the end of a House
service and being "so prodigiously frighten'd that I could not stop to make
an apology." 39
Church services in the House began as soon as the government moved
to Washington, in the fall of 1800, as a letter of the Senate chaplain,
Thomas Claggett (1783-1816), the Episcopal Bishop of Maryland, reveals:
writing to a fellow clergyman on February 18, 1801, Bishop Claggett
described "a course of Sermons which I have delivered on Sundays in the
Capitol on the truth of the Divine System."40 From the beginning, services
were open to the public and, for a time, they were so popular that the
House on Sunday mornings became the rendezvous for the "youth, beauty and
fashion" of Washington.41
Apparently the House was used because of the shortage of places of
worship in the raw, young District of Columbia. Services in the Capitol
continued, however, into the 1850s, long after Washington teemed with
churches. After the Civil War, from 1865-1868, the House permitted the
newly organized First Congregational Church of Washington to use its
chambers for church and Sunday school services,42 at precisely the time,
May 13, 1866, when Congress passed the Fourteenth Amendment, which,
according to some later judicial theories, forbids religious activities on
public property.
There are numerous descriptions of early congressional church
services. A Washington newspaper, The National Intelligencer, mentioned,
for example, an appearance in the House on July 4, 1801, of the Reverend
David Austin (1759-1831), who at the time considered himself "struck in
prophesy under the style of the `Joshua' of the American Temple. 114'
Having proclaimed to his congressional audience the imminence of the Second
Coming of"
33. Both the "Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth" and "The Life and
Morals of Jesus" can be conveniently consulted in Adams, Jefferson's
Extracts.
34. Quoted in Eugene Sheridan, "Liberty and Virtue: Religion and
Republicanism in Jeffersonian Thought," unpublished paper in the author's
possession, 37.
35. Gaustad, Sworn on the Altar, 135.
36. Ibid., 139.
37. Gaillard Hunt, ed., The first forty years of
Washington society (New York: Charles Seribner's Sons, 1906), 13.
38. Manasseh Cutler to Josiah Torrey, January 3, 1803, William
Parker Cutler and Julia Perkins Cutler, eds., Life journals and
Correspondence of Rev. Manasseh Cutler, LL. D., 2 vols. (Athens: Ohio
University Press, 1987), 2, 1 19.
39. Catharine Mitchill to Margaret Miller, April 8, 1806, Carolyn
H. Sung, "Catharine Mitchill's Letters from Washington 18061812,"
Q-uarterlyjournal of the Library of Congress, 34 (July 1977), 175.
40. Thomas Claggett to James Kemp, February 18, 1801, Maryland
Diocesan Archives. Church services in the Capitol may have begun five years
earlier. Wilhelmus B. Bryan, a pioneering but conscientious historian of
Washington, D.C., mentions an item in the city's first newspaper (of which
only a few copies are extant), the Impartial Observer and Washington
Advertiser, June 19, 1795, which indicates that the Capitol, though still
in its initial stages of construction, was used for religious observances
of some sort. Wilhelmus B. Bryan, "The Beginnings of the Presbyterian
Church in the District of Columbia," Records of the Columbia Historical
Society, 8 (1905), 54.
41. Hunt, ed., Washington Society, 13.
42. Everett O. Alldredge, Centennial History of First Congregational United
Church of Christ Washington, D.C. (Baltimore: Port City Press, 1965), 10.
43. A. P. C. Griffin, "Issues of the Press in 1800-1802," Records
of the Columbia Historical Society, 4 (1901), 58.
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: RELIGION and the Founding of the American Republic.,
James H. Huston. Library of Congress, Washington, (1998) pp. 84
==================================================
The above is as much crap as anything.
The following never happened:
"Jefferson's "conversion" to a minimalist Christianity changed his opinion
of the value of the faith in civil affairs. He was now prepared to concede
what his fellow Founders had been arguing for decades religion fostered
morality and, consequently, had a role to play in a free society"
Jefferson never converted to even a minimalist Christian.
Jefferson was never a "orthodox" Christian in any sense of the word beyond
perhaps as young child when he wouldn't have understood most of it anyways.
Of the above, he attended church while President. Big deal. He also
attended church before and after being President at times. While he
frequently wrote against the clergy he had friends who were clergy. he
supported some churches financially. Those are facts. They do not equal
what these folks are trying to make them equal.
In other cases, much of the rest is really a stretch which one can easily
see when comparing to the cites he does give. The main point, which I am
assuming is why they referred to page 84, is this
"Later still, he indicated that he now agreed with his former opponents
that "a future state of retribution for the evil as well as the good done
while here" was a crucial concept for the promotion of public morality." 36
Look at the cite:
36. Gaustad, Sworn on the Altar, 139.
Let me show you the bottom of page 138 and all of 139 of the Gaustad book:
"It certainly was the religion of John Adams, who had considered
himself a Unitarian for sixty years. "Had you and I been forty days with
Moses on Mount Sinai," Adams wrote to Jefferson soon after he received the
letter quoted above, and were we told that "one was three and three, one,
we might not have had the courage to deny it, but we could never have
believed it." For truths come from Nature and from Reason, and
no-revelation, no miracle, no prophecy could ever convince us to "believe
that 2 and 2 make 5." If forced to assert something so flagrantly contrary
to Reason, "we should be more likely to say in our hearts . . . There is no
God! no Truth."
Whether Jefferson needed this confirmation or not, his own language
of condemnation grew ever stronger. "Ideas must be distinct before reason
can act upon them," he wrote in 1816, "and no man ever had a distinct idea
of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling
themselves priests of Jesus." Such priests specialize in "shedding
darkness, like the scuttle fish, thro' the element in which they move, and
making it impenetrable to the eye of a pursuing enemy." Only Reason could
counteract the darkness with which so much of the world had thus been
inked.
"When shall we have done away with the incomprehensible jargon of
the Trinitarian arithmetic?" Jefferson impatiently asked a Unitarian
correspondent in 1821. System builders and theological scholastics "have so
distorted and deformed the doctrines of Jesus," he wrote, "so muffled them
in mysticisms, fancies, and falsehoods, have caricatured them into forms so
monstrous and inconceivable, as to shock reasonable thinkers." Having
previously asserted that there would never have been an infidel if there
had never been a priest, Jefferson now widened his net to include many
others: "Had there never been a commentator, there never would have been an
infidel." He remained hopeful, however, in these last years of his life: "I
have little doubt that the whole of our country will soon be rallied to the
Unity of the Creator, and, I hope, to the pure doctrines of Jesus also."
If trinitarian arithmetic was irrational, it was also, in
Jefferson's view, a historical. The great improvement that Judaism had made
upon all its surrounding religions was its
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Sworn on the Altar of God, A Religious Biography of
Thomas Jefferson, Edwin S. Gaustad, William B. Erdmenss Publishing
Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan/Cambridge, UK (1996) pp. 138-39
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you see anything there that supports this:
"Later still, he indicated that he now agreed with his former opponents
that "a future state of retribution for the evil as well as the good done
while here" was a crucial concept for the promotion of public morality." 36
In fact, if anything, it is the exact opposite.
[ "Me You" wrote ]

:|All signs point to a letter written by Ethan Allen with the only title being Washington Parish, Washington City (Which I can't find online). The above citation was taken from the wallbuilders (site: http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=24 16th Annotation )

[ I replied]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Critics, therefore, would be particularly troubled by President
Jefferson's words that:
No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be.
The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and
I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of
my example." [16]
[16] Hutson (see n. 8) at p. 96, quoting from a handwritten history in
possession of the Library of Congress, "Washington Parish, Washington
City," by Rev. Ethan Allen.
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: The Founders on Public Religious Expression
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=24
****************************************************************
Now you can figure out for yourself the game that Barton is playing above
just by the information I have provided here.
It only gores to show he is still up to his old tricks as shown below
The Barton Chronicles
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/bartchro.htm
***************************************************************
L.O.C. EXHIBIT (update):
From:

[

was me at that period of time.]
Newsgroups:
soc.history.war.us-revolution,alt.history.colonial,alt.atheism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,soc.history,a
lt.deism,alt.atheism,alt.religion.deism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.history
Subject: L.O.C. EXHIBIT (update)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 12:14:18 -0400
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d11tqs02s7dubb5jkbu3r1su3plnfaoq...

:| but
:|he also authorized the US Marine Band to provide music for worship
:|services held in other government buildings as well.

Your unsubstantiated claim is noted
The above unless properly ciited has to be treated as *****

:|"Article 10: The powers not delegated to the United States by the
:|Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the
:|States respectively, or to the people."
:|

The Tenth Amendment
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.education/msg/5abfbefa3835d0cf?oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
The Federal Constitution trumps state constitutions.
The Federal Constitution is the supreme law of the land.
The 10th Amendment isn't the end all, be all, powerful all you and a host
of others that don't understand the Constitution, etc thinks it is.
This has been pointed out to you before, by me a host of times but know it
all, full of himself, no one can tell me anything Alberto would delete it.
There is a name for people who constantly try to get rid of, push away,
anything that disagrees with their position.
SEE
The Tenth Amendment
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.education/msg/5abfbefa3835d0...
Back to Jefferson:
Sandford, THE RELIGIOUS LIFE OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, UVA press, 1987)
I see Gardiner is back at practicing deception in his efforts to sell his
theories.
Let's look at some of what is said in the book cited by Gardiner
The Religious Life of Thomas Jefferson, by Charles B. Sanford. University
of Virginia Press, Charlottesville, (1984 --third paperback printing, 1992)
------- ------- ------- --------
PREFACE
"Even scholars who are familiar with Jefferson's deism, Unitarianism, and
enthusiasm for Bible study do not seem to appreciate the importance of his
religious beliefs to his political philosophy and career."
PAGE 5 [What follows is the "conservative Unitarian," comment including
the part about who actually made the comment which Gardiner "forgot" to
include.]
" His great-grandson described Jefferson's religion as that of a
"conservative Unitarian . . . "
PAGE 14
"In summary, we may conclude that Jefferson, in his college years, began an
involvement with Enlightenment and deistic writers which deeply influenced
him toward a liberal, intellectual, moralistic, personal, and humanitarian
view of government, society, and religion. This study continued all of his
life and is reflected in his choice of favorite quotations and the books in
his extensive library."
PAGE 20
"In private, deists like Jefferson and Paine had some reservations about
the Old Testament and did not hesitate to correct the biblical account of
creation in the light of Newtonian science and emerging anthropology."
PAGE 48
"Daniel Boorstin is closer to the truth than Trainer when he emphasizes
that Jefferson and the American deists took man's relation to nature rather
than to god as their starting point."
PAGES 85 -92 beginning with the sub heading "JEFFERSON WAS DEIST"
and including sub headings, "GOD, SEEN IN THE CREATION." "GOD, THE CREATOR
OF MAN," "ONE GOD, NOT THREE," "JEFFERSON WAS A THEIST."
PAGE 92
"He followed and promulgated the ideas of the English deists, particularly
their belief in a creator of the universe, known by reason, in opposition
to orthodox Christian theism based on revelation, theology, and mysticism."
PAGE 92
"Jefferson may thus well be called a deist."
PAGE 105
"Privately discussing religion with interested friends, though, he was just
as vehement as Paine or Rousseau in separating what he called 'the grain
from the chaff," "the gold from the dross," and 'the diamond from the
dunghill' in biblical passages."
PAGE 130
"Another of the important teachings of christ about God, according to
Jefferson, was the belief in one God. The phrase frequently used by
Jefferson was the 'Deism taught us by Jesus of Nazareth,' which he used in
contrast to 'atheism,' meaning belief in no god, and 'theism,' by which he
meant orthodox Trinitarianism. Jefferson argued that the belief of deism in
the 'unity of the creator was the pure doctrine of Jesus also.'"
PAGE 155
""I have often wondered for what good end the sensations of grief cou8ld be
intended. All of our other passions, within proper bounds, have a useful
object, but what is the use of grief in the economy [of life]?'"
"That question came from the deistic faith, which Jefferson and
Adams shared, that everything in nature and human experience had a good
purpose, since everything came from the good design of the perfect Creator,
God."
PAGE 173-177 (Just a small sampling here, be sure to read the all five
pages to put it in proper context.)
FROM PAGES 173-174
Conclusions about Jefferson's Religion
Was Jefferson really as radical in his religion as his opponents declared
or as some modern scholars indicate? In answer to the charge that he was an
"atheist, deist, or devil," he was not an atheist, he was a deist, and
personal morality and honor were important elements in his character. He
was strongly influenced by the liberal religious ideas of the
t·ighteenth-century Enlightenment, particularly the deism of Scottish
philosophers, beginning with the stimulation he received from his favorite
college professor, William Small, and continuing through a lifetime of
study of the books he acquired for his library."
An evaluation of Jefferson's deism indicates that his beliefs about
God were not as radical as those of many of his contemporaries.
Jefferson defended his French philosopher friends who were atheists
as being honorable men, hut he did not share their views that the
universe could have always existed without a Creator. Jefferson
believed in God as the planner, architect, first cause, and master
builder of the universe. He went further and believed that God continued
to guide, modify, and sustain his creation.
=====================================================
Now, I bet that I can supply info that would differ regarding Jefferson's
church going, etc from the abundant amount of information put out in 1800.
I also have the following to add:
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or
no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
Thomas Jefferson's Notes on Virginia QUERY XVII The different
religions received into that state? Religion
---------------------------------------------------------
and finally:
JUST A TINY PORTION OF WHAT IS OUT THERE
Thomas Jefferson on Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qjeffson.htm
Jefferson on Religion Flourishing on its Own Merits
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/merits.htm
Jefferson wrote in his Notes on the State of Virginia: "Instead therefore
of putting the Bible and Testament into the hands of the children, at an
age when their judgments are not sufficiently matured for religious
enquiries, their memories may here be stored with the most useful facts
from Grecian, Roman, European and American history."
[DID] Thomas Jefferson supported Bible reading in school; this is proven by
his service as the first president of the Washington, D.C. public schools,
which used the Bible and Watt's Hymns as textbooks for reading.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg6.htm
Another Jefferson Quote Debunked
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/jefschl1.htm
Jefferson, Religion, and the Public Schools.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/jeffschl.htm
Jefferson's Declaration of Independence did not use the word "Creator"
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/doitj.htm
Joseph Story's ongoing war with Thomas Jefferson
http://candst.tripod.com/joestor3.htm
79. A Bill for the More General Diffusion of Knowledge (1778)
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/jefflaw1.htm
80. A Bill for Amending the Constitution of the College of William and
Mary, and Substituting More Certain Revenues for Its Support (1779)
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/jefflaw2.htm
81. A Bill for Establishing a Public Library (1779)
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/jefflaw3.htm
[DID] Thomas Jefferson actually said that the wall of separation between
church and state was "one directional."
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg3.htm
Jefferson's Danbury letter was written merely to assure Connecticut
Baptists that the Constitution did not permit the establishment of a
national denomination.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg12.htm
Jefferson's Danbury letter was written to address the Danbury Baptists'
fears that the First Amendment might be misinterpreted.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg13.htm
Jefferson's letter to Benjamin Rush shows that Jefferson was a
non-preferentialist.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg14.htm
Thomas Jefferson on Religious Freedom
Jefferson's Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom in the
State of Virginia
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7842/rfindex.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/statute.htm
Thomas Jefferson on Politics & Government
52. Freedom of Religion
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm
Thomas Jefferson on Religion
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1777/jefferson.html
THOMAS JEFFERSON ON CHRISTIANITY & RELIGION
Compiled by Jim Walker
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm
Thomas Jefferson on Religion
http://www.mikehersh.com/article_30.shtml
Thomas Jefferson on religion
http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/religion/jefferson-religion.html
Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1786)
Thomas Jefferson
http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/religion/va-religiousfreedom....
The Real Jefferson on Religion by Robert S. Alley
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/alley_18_4.html
The Letters of Thomas Jefferson: 1743-1826
RELIGION AND THE UNIVERSITY
To Dr. Thomas Cooper Monticello, November 2, 1822
DEAR SIR,
http://grid.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl270.htm
The Letters of Thomas Jefferson: 1743-1826
RELIGIOUS FREEDOM
To Rev. Samuel Miller Washington, Jan. 23, 1808
http://grid.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl183.htm
Thomas Jefferson's Letters on Liberty and Religion
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/jeff_letters.htm
Jefferson's Note on Virginia (religion)
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/JEFFERSON/ch17.html
THE Jefferson Bible
The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth
Extracted Textually from the Gospels
Compiled by Thomas Jefferson
Edited by Eyler Robert Coates, Sr.
[a decent version, not the most accurate ]
http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/
Thomas Jefferson
http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/thomasjefferson.html
Thomas Jefferson: A UU Perspective
Was Jefferson a Unitarian?
http://www.2think.org/tj.shtml
Thomas Jefferson: The Sphere of Religion
http://search.eb.com/elections/pri/Q00074.html
Jefferson and Religion--Google search
http://snurl.com/2pse
And last but by no means least:
However, Jefferson didn't create church state separation:
The principle of church state separation was embodied in the unamended
constitution long before Jefferson wrote a word to the Danbury Baptist
Assoc.
Study Guide: Separation of Church and State - Indepth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm
Everson v. Bd of Ed defined the Establishment Clasue.
Here are the footnotes that the court used to pen the definition:
FOOTNOTES TO EVERSON v. BD OF ED.
http://snurl.com/2pro
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
[Mostly Jefferson, primary/secondary evidence, including old reply
toGardiner---5/14/02]
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.wisdom/msg/7f52d90b9b9726ad?q=g:thl3825310418d&dq=&hl=en&lr=
[Jefferson, primary/secondary material --- 5/16/02]
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.wisdom/msg/e4410e7a78c00c13?q=g:thl3825310418d&dq=&hl=en&lr=
[Mostly Jefferson --- 5/15/02]
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.wisdom/msg/da8b66bc5122da40?q=g:thl3825310418d&dq=&hl=en&lr=
[Founders in general, long long post but most complete probably thus far
--- 5/19/02]
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.antichristnet/msg/e2ea588f03b46300?q=g:thl783259543d&dq=&hl=en&lr=
**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Court Allows Church to Rent Space in Public Schools; discussion fails 10th Amendment test	30 Nov 2005 10:14:37 AM

"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:

Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 19:01:31 +0000
[ "Me You" wrote ]

:|I was wondering if you had ever seen this quote and (if so) if you had a more specific citation.

[ I replied]
The above is bogus.
[ "Me You" wrote ]

:|The only variation I've seen is with ellipsis between "freedom in government" and "I am persuaded". Is this another take off of the religion is the foundation of government misquote?

[

:| but
:|he also authorized the US Marine Band to provide music for worship
:|services held in other government buildings as well.

Your unsubstantiated claim is noted
The above unless properly ciited has to be treated as *****

:|"Article 10: The powers not delegated to the United States by the
:|Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the
:|States respectively, or to the people."
:|

User: ""
Title: Re: Court Allows Church to Rent Space in Public Schools; discussion fails 10th Amendment test	05 Dec 2005 04:37:41 AM

"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:

:|
:|buckeye-...@nospam.net wrote:
:|> "fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
:|>
:|> >:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
:|> >:|> Court Allows Church to Rent Space in Public Schools
:|> >:|> http://www.christianpost.com/article/society/2029/section/court.allows.church.to.rent.space.in.public.schools/1.htm
:|> >:|> Christian Post - San Francisco,CA,USA
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> Saturday, Nov. 26, 2005 Posted: 12:11:25PM EST
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> Religious groups may rent spaces in public schools for meetings just as
:|> >:|> other organizations can, a federal judge ruled recently.
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> The decision by Judge Loretta Preska of the Federal District Court in
:|> >:|> Manhattan, N.Y., allows the evangelical Bronx Household of Faith church to
:|> >:|> rent space in a public school for four hours every Sunday.
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> "The government may not treat activities that are similar to those
:|> >:|> previously permitted as different in kind just because the subject
:|> >:|> activities are conducted from a religious perspective," Preska wrote in her
:|> >:|> court opinion.
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> The case of The Bronx Household of Faith v. New York Board of Education
:|> >:|> ended with the judge's decision, which was handed down on Nov. 16 following
:|> >:|> a decade-long battle by in the courts.
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> The Board of Education in New York City did not want the church's presence
:|> >:|> in the school, saying that it did not want to be affiliated with a
:|> >:|> particular religion and that the church's presence violated the separation
:|> >:|> of church and state. The district said it would immediately appeal the
:|> >:|> ruling.
:|> >:|
:|> >:|Again, Thomas Jefferson, the hero of separationists, atheist and
:|> >:|activist judges, not only regularly attended worship services held in
:|> >:|the hall of the House of Representatives at the Nation's Capitol,
:|>
:|> Now for the rest of the story:
:|> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:|> Let's set the record straight on the matter of Jefferson attending church,
:|> church services held in Congress, Jefferson's conversion to Christianity,
:|> etc.
:|
:|But you didn't set the record straight; you are merely fantasizing that
:|you did. You are ignoring that the fact that Jefferson attended
:|worship services in a government building throws down the
:|unconstitutional idea of absolute church-state separation associated
:|with Jefferson.
:|

Well little man, you forgot to add any evidence to support your claim I
didn't set the record straight.
You saying doesn't prove it.
You lose by default
Hehehehe
Now for the rest of the story:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's set the record straight on the matter of Jefferson attending church,
church services held in Congress, Jefferson's conversion to Christianity,
etc.
****************************************************************
Some who opposed Jefferson constricted the meaning of religion to matters
of the church. Ignoring his public professions of faith, David Daggett, a
New Haven lawyer and Federalist, attacked Jefferson for not being a good
church member. "It is a well established fact," Daggett wrote in 1800,
"that Mr. Jefferson never has attended public worship during a residence of
several years in New York and Philadelphia." The writer was unimpressed by
reports that Jefferson had provided financial support for a minister.
Daggett expressed his willingness to give the presidential candidate credit
for such an act only if "he would attend [the preacher's] ministrations and
not confine them to servants."34
34. Connecticutensis, Three Letters to Abraham Bishop (Hartford, 1800),
28-29. 35. Ibid., 29-30. 36. Ibid., 31.
SOURCE: "God-And a Religious President . . . Or Jefferson and No God":
Campaigning for a Voter-Imposed Religious Test in 1800, Frank Lambert, pp
781-82 JOURNAL OF CHURCH AND STATE, VOLUME 39 AUTUMN 1997 NUMBER 4
****************************************************************
Except a small Catholic chapel there was only one church building
in the entire city, [Washington DC] and this tiny wooden sanctuary was
attended by a congregation which seldom exceeded twenty persons.8 This
absence of churches was entirely, in keeping with the inclination of people
of fashion. The first Republican administration came, testifies Winfield
Scott, in "the spring tide of infidelity. . . At school and college, most
bright boys, of that day, affected to regard religion as base superstition
or gross hypocricy." 1
NOTESl
8. This was a little Presbyterian church building, which was
abandoned after 1800. (Bryan, Wilhelmus Bogart, History of the National
Capital from its Foundation through the Period of the Adoption of the
Organic Act. 9. vols. New York. (1914-16) 1, 232; . (Bryan.)and see Hunt
Gaillard, editor. First Forty Years of Washington Society, portrayed by the
Family Letters of Mrs. Samuel Harrison Smith. New York. (1906).13-14
(Hunt.)
1. Memoirs of Lieut: General Scott, 9-10. Among the masses of the
people, however, a profound religious movement was beginning. (See Semple:
History of the Rise and Progress of the Baptists in Virginia; and
Cleveland: Great Revival in the West.)
A year or two later, religious services were held every Sunday
afternoon in the hall of the House of Representatives, which always was
crowded on these occasions. The throng did not come to worship, it appears;
seemingly, the legislative hall was considered to be a convenient
meeting-place for gossip, flirtation, and social gayety. The plan was soon
abandoned and the hall left entirely to profane usages. (Bryan, I, 606-07.)
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: The Life of John Marshall, by Albert J. Beveridge,
Vol. III, Conflict and Construction, 1800-1815 Houghton Mifflin Company
(1919) pp. 6-7
****************************************************************
Received in my email this morning and my reply:
From: "Me You"
To:

Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 19:01:31 +0000
[ "Me You" wrote ]

:|I was wondering if you had ever seen this quote and (if so) if you had a more specific citation.

[ I replied]
The above is bogus.
[ "Me You" wrote ]

:|The only variation I've seen is with ellipsis between "freedom in government" and "I am persuaded". Is this another take off of the religion is the foundation of government misquote?

[

:| but
:|he also authorized the US Marine Band to provide music for worship
:|services held in other government buildings as well.

Your unsubstantiated claim is noted
The above unless properly ciited has to be treated as *****

:|"Article 10: The powers not delegated to the United States by the
:|Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the
:|States respectively, or to the people."
:|