| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
03 Jun 2006 02:42:07 PM |
| Object: |
Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
ourt Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/03/us/03faith.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
June 3, 2006
Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid
By NEELA BANERJEE
WASHINGTON, June 2 - A federal judge in Iowa ruled Friday that a
state-financed evangelical Christian program to help inmates re-enter
society was "pervasively sectarian" and violated the separation of church
and state.
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
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| User: "Scott Richter" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
05 Jun 2006 01:49:15 AM |
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<buckeye-elo@nosdpam.net> wrote:
WASHINGTON, June 2 - A federal judge in Iowa ruled Friday that a
state-financed evangelical Christian program to help inmates re-enter
society was "pervasively sectarian" and violated the separation of church
and state.
What bad luck, with so many Republican congressmen about to serve long
prison terms...
.
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| User: "KenStahl" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
05 Jun 2006 05:59:05 AM |
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Scott Richter wrote:
<buckeye-elo@nosdpam.net> wrote:
WASHINGTON, June 2 - A federal judge in Iowa ruled Friday that a
state-financed evangelical Christian program to help inmates re-enter
society was "pervasively sectarian" and violated the separation of church
and state.
What bad luck, with so many Republican congressmen about to serve long
prison terms...
It would be better if you substituted "so many" with "not
nearly enough".
.
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| User: "Jeff Strickland" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
04 Jun 2006 04:40:51 PM |
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Great. Now we are taking tools away from groups that want to help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society. Nice.
Idiots.
<buckeye-elo@nosdpam.net> wrote in message
news:tep382d6h3q9b00505mligo73s99i5b89q@4ax.com...
ourt Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/03/us/03faith.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
June 3, 2006
Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid
By NEELA BANERJEE
WASHINGTON, June 2 - A federal judge in Iowa ruled Friday that a
state-financed evangelical Christian program to help inmates re-enter
society was "pervasively sectarian" and violated the separation of church
and state.
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why
"a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v.
Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
05 Jun 2006 03:01:02 AM |
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"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
Great. Now we are taking tools away from groups that want to help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society. Nice.
Just requiring the religious ones to be paid for by those that
actually believe those religious beliefs would "help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society".
Only Christians believe that "faith in Jesus Christ" has anything to
do with being "useful" or "contributing". And some of us believe it
is useful to us, but of no particular interest to society.
lojbab
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| User: "Jeff Strickland" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
08 Jun 2006 07:58:54 PM |
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"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:ouo782pn552guqtep8mcdjncfefgkiivc7@4ax.com...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
Great. Now we are taking tools away from groups that want to help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society. Nice.
Just requiring the religious ones to be paid for by those that
actually believe those religious beliefs would "help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society".
What if the inmates themselves feel they need religion to get by? Shouldn't
we provide it for them by giving religion a chance to provide them other
tools they might need?
I'm sure nobody is standing at the prison gates and getting prisoners to
accept religion as they walk out. I'm positive that the prisoners that take
the offer that religion provides are doing it because they found religion
while in prison, and why not give them the training or materials they might
need to succeed even if that training or materials comes to them via a
church?
We place some pretty harsh demands on prisoners that get released, and if
THEY find that they can meet those demands through religious inclusion in
their lives, then shouldn't society (government) pay religion to help these
people?
Sheesh. We have a huge recidism (?) rate, where a prisoner gets out and is
thrown right back in, almost before the door swings shut from letting him
out. These people are crying out for self-help programs, and if there is one
that includes a religious component, then we ought to foot the bill to get
him into it. We're willing to foot the bill to throw his sorry ***** back into
jail, I think that spending a fraction of a percent on religion to keep him
out of jail is money well spent. Give the guy the help he needs in the
religion he wants, or in no religion at all if that is what he wants.
Religion is not a requirement to get help, it's only one of the vehicles
that can deliver the help that is sought.
I do not pretend it is the best vehicle for all inmates, but it's a vehicle
that might work, and Lord knows, we haven't hit on the right combination of
vehicles to give the help. Religion might work.
Only Christians believe that "faith in Jesus Christ" has anything to
do with being "useful" or "contributing". And some of us believe it
is useful to us, but of no particular interest to society.
lojbab
Yes, but Bob, if YOU have just gotten out of jail, and YOU felt that
religion was good for you, then wouldn't be incumbant on the rest of us to
help religion to help you? Because if we don't help religion help you, then
the odds favor you harming us again, and getting your sorry ***** thrown back
in jail. You lose, we lose. What is good in that? If we help religion help
you, and you are a voluntary participant not a compulsory one, then your
odds of staying on the straight and narrow go way up, and you win and we
win. What is bad in that?
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
09 Jun 2006 07:08:15 AM |
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"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:ouo782pn552guqtep8mcdjncfefgkiivc7@4ax.com...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
Great. Now we are taking tools away from groups that want to help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society. Nice.
Just requiring the religious ones to be paid for by those that
actually believe those religious beliefs would "help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society".
What if the inmates themselves feel they need religion to get by?
No one stops them from praying.
Shouldn't we provide it for them
Not "we the people".
by giving religion a chance to provide them other tools they might need?
Their co-religionists have the right to provide them religion, but the
government may not aid them.
I'm sure nobody is standing at the prison gates and getting prisoners to
accept religion as they walk out. I'm positive that the prisoners that take
the offer that religion provides are doing it because they found religion
while in prison,
In this program, they are taking it because the government was paying
for different and better treatment provided for those who participated
in the religious activities but not for those who did not participate
in the religious activities.
and why not give them the training or materials they might
need to succeed even if that training or materials comes to them via a
church?
The church has to pay for it, not the government.
Sheesh. We have a huge recidism (?) rate, where a prisoner gets out and is
thrown right back in, almost before the door swings shut from letting him
out. These people are crying out for self-help programs, and if there is one
that includes a religious component, then we ought to foot the bill to get
him into it.
We do not foot the bill for any religious programs as a matter of
constitutional principle. People of that religion can choose to foot
the bill if they want.
We're willing to foot the bill to throw his sorry ***** back into jail,
If he violates the law.
I think that spending a fraction of a percent on religion to keep him
out of jail is money well spent.
Then give generously to the church, and stay out of my pocket for your
religious proselytization.
Give the guy the help he needs in the
religion he wants, or in no religion at all if that is what he wants.
Religion is not a requirement to get help,
It is in those programs.
Yes, but Bob, if YOU have just gotten out of jail, and YOU felt that
religion was good for you, then wouldn't be incumbant on the rest of us to
help religion to help you?
No. No more than if I just got out of jail and I felt that a million
dollars would be good for me, it would not be incumbent on the rest to
give me a million dollars to help me. On the other hand, if you feel
like giving me a million dollars *yourself* just because I want it, I
certainly approve.
And I daresay giving them a million dollars would indeed probably cut
their recidivism more than religion does. But that is beside the
point. Society has no requirement to provide what a prisoner wants,
or what some people think he "needs", and if that want or need is
religious, then society may NOT provide it in the form of government
aid.
Because if we don't help religion help you, then
the odds favor you harming us again, and getting your sorry ***** thrown back
in jail. You lose, we lose. What is good in that? If we help religion help
you, and you are a voluntary participant not a compulsory one, then your
odds of staying on the straight and narrow go way up, and you win and we
win. What is bad in that?
If it violates separation of church and state, it is unconstitutional.
lojbab
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
09 Jun 2006 04:50:26 AM |
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On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:58:54 -0500, Jeff Strickland wrote
(in article <GY-dnQTXccJSWhXZnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@ez2.net>):
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:ouo782pn552guqtep8mcdjncfefgkiivc7@4ax.com...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
Great. Now we are taking tools away from groups that want to help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society. Nice.
Just requiring the religious ones to be paid for by those that
actually believe those religious beliefs would "help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society".
What if the inmates themselves feel they need religion to get by? Shouldn't
we provide it for them by giving religion a chance to provide them other
tools they might need?
They've already got it. I take it that you've never visited a prison.
Here, in Vicksburg, Mississippi, there's a chaplain (not paid) who helps the
inmates in the jail and does his best to get you a visit(s) from someone of
your faith if you need an exact match.
I haven't been to Parchman Farm but once since 1964 but in that 1964 visit we
walked down Death Row and talked to the inmates who weren't praying (every
second of every day until they passed out and, when they awoke, went right
back to praying).
[If you don't know Parchman, you don't know the blues and if you don't know
the Blues, you'll never understand a word I'm saying).
I'm sure nobody is standing at the prison gates and getting prisoners to
accept religion as they walk out. I'm positive that the prisoners that take
the offer that religion provides are doing it because they found religion
while in prison, and why not give them the training or materials they might
need to succeed even if that training or materials comes to them via a
church?
They've already got that. Basically, always have.
We place some pretty harsh demands on prisoners that get released,
That they stay away from drugs, alcohol abuse and away from other ex-cons?
and if
THEY find that they can meet those demands through religious inclusion in
their lives, then shouldn't society (government) pay religion to help these
people?
Well, no. Jesus is not the governor of Alabama or, even, Georgia.
Sheesh. We have a huge recidism (?) rate, where a prisoner gets out and is
thrown right back in, almost before the door swings shut from letting him
out. These people are crying out for self-help programs,
They've got them, Porky.
and if there is one
that includes a religious component,
Basically, they all do.
then we ought to foot the bill to get him into it.
Why? Most prisoners have chaplains now.
I can just see a Baptist Prison, a Buddhist Prison, an Islamic Prison, an
atheist prison, a Quaker Prison, an Episcopal Prison, a Jehovah Witnesses'
prison, a Mormon prison (outside of Utah), a Shinto Prison.
Do you have any problem with that?
We're willing to foot the bill to throw his sorry ***** back into
jail, I think that spending a fraction of a percent on religion to keep him
out of jail is money well spent. Give the guy the help he needs in the
religion he wants, or in no religion at all if that is what he wants.
Religion is not a requirement to get help, it's only one of the vehicles
that can deliver the help that is sought.
So people who have spent time in prison don't need to take responsibility for
their actions? But you want the Roman Catholic denomination - they're the
largest of the denominations - to run prisons?
I do not pretend it is the best vehicle for all inmates, but it's a vehicle
that might work, and Lord knows, we haven't hit on the right combination of
vehicles to give the help. Religion might work.
So might a prison run by national alliance.
Or the American Communist Party.
Or how about torture? Your kind seems to like torture.
++ gray
Only Christians believe that "faith in Jesus Christ" has anything to
do with being "useful" or "contributing". And some of us believe it
is useful to us, but of no particular interest to society.
lojbab
Yes, but Bob, if YOU have just gotten out of jail, and YOU felt that
religion was good for you, then wouldn't be incumbant on the rest of us to
help religion to help you? Because if we don't help religion help you, then
the odds favor you harming us again, and getting your sorry ***** thrown back
in jail. You lose, we lose. What is good in that? If we help religion help
you, and you are a voluntary participant not a compulsory one, then your
odds of staying on the straight and narrow go way up, and you win and we
win. What is bad in that?
.
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| User: "Jeff Strickland" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
10 Jun 2006 11:38:07 AM |
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"Gray Shockley" <grayshockley@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C0AEAE920006B7DAF0284530@news.giganews.com...
On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:58:54 -0500, Jeff Strickland wrote
(in article <GY-dnQTXccJSWhXZnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@ez2.net>):
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:ouo782pn552guqtep8mcdjncfefgkiivc7@4ax.com...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
Great. Now we are taking tools away from groups that want to help
inmates
become useful and contributing members of society. Nice.
Just requiring the religious ones to be paid for by those that
actually believe those religious beliefs would "help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society".
What if the inmates themselves feel they need religion to get by?
Shouldn't
we provide it for them by giving religion a chance to provide them other
tools they might need?
They've already got it. I take it that you've never visited a prison.
Here, in Vicksburg, Mississippi, there's a chaplain (not paid) who helps
the
inmates in the jail and does his best to get you a visit(s) from someone
of
your faith if you need an exact match.
You're missing the point. Or, I'm missing it. The church is providing
services to ex-convicts that helps the ex-convicts adjust to life on the
outside. The church is providing what amounts to social services, and the
feds are paying them for the services they provide, and the court says that
the feds can not use or fund religious based social services.
We aren't talking about religion that may or may not be provided IN prision,
we're talking about services that are provided to ex-convicts via religious
organizations. At least, that's what I read in the OP.
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
10 Jun 2006 09:39:33 PM |
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"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
You're missing the point. Or, I'm missing it. The church is providing
services to ex-convicts that helps the ex-convicts adjust to life on the
outside.
In the case that was in court, they were services in the prison to
current prisoners serving their sentences, not "ex-convicts".
We aren't talking about religion that may or may not be provided IN prision,
Yes you are.
lojbab
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| User: "Jeff Strickland" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
11 Jun 2006 11:26:54 AM |
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"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:lg0n825t88588opo0da28j4c0dkffmfc6c@4ax.com...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
You're missing the point. Or, I'm missing it. The church is providing
services to ex-convicts that helps the ex-convicts adjust to life on the
outside.
In the case that was in court, they were services in the prison to
current prisoners serving their sentences, not "ex-convicts".
We aren't talking about religion that may or may not be provided IN
prision,
Yes you are.
lojbab
Then, Bob, it's, "yes WE are." Because I clearly am not talking about
prisoners that are in prison, I'm talking about ones that have been
released. You guys are all talking about in-prison services, I seem to be
alone in talking about post-prison services. My bad.
I'll need to revisit the OP because I thought the court decided that
post-prison services provided by religious organizations was the topic here.
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
09 Jun 2006 11:54:56 AM |
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Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com>
On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:58:54 -0500, Jeff Strickland wrote
(in article <GY-dnQTXccJSWhXZnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@ez2.net>):
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:ouo782pn552guqtep8mcdjncfefgkiivc7@4ax.com...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
Great. Now we are taking tools away from groups that want to help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society. Nice.
Just requiring the religious ones to be paid for by those that
actually believe those religious beliefs would "help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society".
What if the inmates themselves feel they need religion to get by? Shouldn't
we provide it for them by giving religion a chance to provide them other
tools they might need?
They've already got it. I take it that you've never visited a prison.
Here, in Vicksburg, Mississippi, there's a chaplain (not paid) who helps the
inmates in the jail and does his best to get you a visit(s) from someone of
your faith if you need an exact match.
I haven't been to Parchman Farm but once since 1964 but in that 1964 visit we
walked down Death Row and talked to the inmates who weren't praying (every
second of every day until they passed out and, when they awoke, went right
back to praying).
[If you don't know Parchman, you don't know the blues and if you don't know
the Blues, you'll never understand a word I'm saying).
Mose Allison lives! (well, actually he does)
-- cary
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
09 Jun 2006 02:54:42 PM |
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On Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:54:56 -0500, Cary Kittrell wrote
(in article <e6c950$a0i$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>):
Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com>
On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:58:54 -0500, Jeff Strickland wrote
(in article <GY-dnQTXccJSWhXZnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@ez2.net>):
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:ouo782pn552guqtep8mcdjncfefgkiivc7@4ax.com...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
Great. Now we are taking tools away from groups that want to help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society. Nice.
Just requiring the religious ones to be paid for by those that
actually believe those religious beliefs would "help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society".
What if the inmates themselves feel they need religion to get by?
Shouldn't
we provide it for them by giving religion a chance to provide them other
tools they might need?
They've already got it. I take it that you've never visited a prison.
Here, in Vicksburg, Mississippi, there's a chaplain (not paid) who helps
the
inmates in the jail and does his best to get you a visit(s) from someone of
your faith if you need an exact match.
I haven't been to Parchman Farm but once since 1964 but in that 1964 visit
we
walked down Death Row and talked to the inmates who weren't praying (every
second of every day until they passed out and, when they awoke, went right
back to praying).
[If you don't know Parchman, you don't know the blues and if you don't know
the Blues, you'll never understand a word I'm saying).
Mose Allison lives! (well, actually he does)
-- cary
Fairly new website:
<http://moseallison.com/>
An "Ole Miss" alum. He's got a B.A. in philosophy & English from LSU, though.
I was told that there war a jazz musician booted from Ole Miss in the period
immediately after WW2 for blowing dope. I wonder . . . . . .
/ Gray / Likely the worst trombone player in history /
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
06 Jun 2006 10:04:18 AM |
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On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:40:51 -0700, "Jeff Strickland"
<crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
Great. Now we are taking tools away from groups that want to help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society. Nice.
Wrong conclusion, (as usual) JeffyLoon
Prisons are government
The organizations are religious based
religion and government are separate.
.
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| User: "Jeff Strickland" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
08 Jun 2006 08:12:48 PM |
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<CLICK@KNICKLAS.COM> wrote in message
news:1o2b82h6mkti72f4do4jg3i7tmtdvlgcgg@4ax.com...
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:40:51 -0700, "Jeff Strickland"
<crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
Great. Now we are taking tools away from groups that want to help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society. Nice.
Wrong conclusion, (as usual) JeffyLoon
Prisons are government
The organizations are religious based
religion and government are separate.
But, the prisoner is OUT of jail when religion comes along to help him
adjust to life on the outside. The prisoner is not a prisoner any more, he
is just a guy that needs help to keep from going back in prison again. If we
help religion help him, then maybe he won't go back into prison, and we are
all better off because it's cheaper to keep these guys on the outside
instead of shuffling them back inside time and time again.
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
09 Jun 2006 07:17:25 AM |
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"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
But, the prisoner is OUT of jail when religion comes along to help him
adjust to life on the outside.
The InnerChange program is *in* the prisons, not out of them, and it
provides differential treatment to those prisoners who practice the
religious component of the program while they are prisoners. It is
pervasively religious and it is also using state money to promote a
particular religion, which the judge ruled is unconstitutional.
Learn what you are talking about before you comment.
http://www.ifiprison.org/generic.asp?ID=971
lojbab
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jeff Strickland" |
|
| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
10 Jun 2006 07:11:05 PM |
|
|
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:qepi821fse0r70tsv5sbf0cco4rotios9s@4ax.com...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
But, the prisoner is OUT of jail when religion comes along to help him
adjust to life on the outside.
The InnerChange program is *in* the prisons, not out of them, and it
provides differential treatment to those prisoners who practice the
religious component of the program while they are prisoners. It is
pervasively religious and it is also using state money to promote a
particular religion, which the judge ruled is unconstitutional.
Learn what you are talking about before you comment.
http://www.ifiprison.org/generic.asp?ID=971
lojbab
I read the link in the OP's post, and I got no feeling that the program was
directed at prisoners that are still in jail. I got the feeling that the
program was directed at prisoners that had been released. If so, then the
prisoners need all of the tools they can get, and if they need religion then
I'm prepared to give it to them, whether or not they share my religion.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
10 Jun 2006 09:47:34 PM |
|
|
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
I read the link in the OP's post, and I got no feeling that the program was
directed at prisoners that are still in jail.
Then you can't read. Here's the link the OP gave. Now follow
closely:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/03/us/03faith.html?ex=1150084800&en=374273b65c92b3c9&ei=5070
Prison programs run by religious groups
"Prison programs" are not programs outside of prison.
In April, the Justice Department announced plans to begin a
religious-based program, offered in a single faith, in at least a
half-dozen federal prisons, according to legal analysts and critics
of the program.
IN the prisons.
<using money from taxpayers to pay for a religious program, one that
< gave special privileges to inmates who accepted its evangelical
< Christian teachings and terms.
"inmates" not ex-convicts.
<"I think it is an extreme decision that if allowed to stand strikes a
< pretty serious blow at the religious freedom of prisoners," Mr.
< Earley said. "And it strikes an equally destructive blow to
< rehabilitation efforts in the prisons of America."
"prisoners" not ex-convicts.
<Religious programs in prisons once used to be chaplaincy efforts and
< occasional visits by volunteers, but they have now grown into
< ambitious programs like InnerChange, Professor Tuttle said. He
< estimated that about 15 states had such programs.
Comparing them to chaplaincy programs, which are IN prisons. Those
outside prisons don't need chaplains since they can go to church.
Try actually READING the artcile next time.
lojbab
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jeff Strickland" |
|
| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
11 Jun 2006 11:39:35 AM |
|
|
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:jj0n82hkbbr6rgqp0aqvsl88iih7crckfd@4ax.com...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
I read the link in the OP's post, and I got no feeling that the program
was
directed at prisoners that are still in jail.
Then you can't read. Here's the link the OP gave. Now follow
closely:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/03/us/03faith.html?ex=1150084800&en=374273b65c92b3c9&ei=5070
Prison programs run by religious groups
"Prison programs" are not programs outside of prison.
Here is the quote that Allison posted,
<quote>
A federal judge in Iowa ruled Friday that a
state-financed evangelical Christian program to help inmates re-enter
society was "pervasively sectarian" and violated the separation of church
and state.
</quote>
The accompanying link requires a log-in that I've elected to not participate
in, and the OP ought not provide links that demand a log-in, but that's
another matter that has more to do with netiquette than anything else.
So, all we (I) have to work with is "help inmates re-enter society." When an
inmate re-enters society, I assume he has been released. The inmate that
partakes in the program elects to do so, and he feels that he needs the help
that is being offered. The information given does not describe the
compulsory nature of the program, and if inmates are compelled to
participate, then I'd agree that the program is a bad one. But, if
participation is voluntary, then I'm all for it because I want inmates to
get out and stay out, and if they feel they need religion to stay out of
jail, then I say we ought to give it to them. If they need anything to stay
ouf of jail, then we should do all we can to provide it, and if it takes
religion to be the conduit for the services they need, then so be it.
In April, the Justice Department announced plans to begin a
religious-based program, offered in a single faith, in at least a
half-dozen federal prisons, according to legal analysts and critics
of the program.
IN the prisons.
<using money from taxpayers to pay for a religious program, one that
< gave special privileges to inmates who accepted its evangelical
< Christian teachings and terms.
"inmates" not ex-convicts.
<"I think it is an extreme decision that if allowed to stand strikes a
< pretty serious blow at the religious freedom of prisoners," Mr.
< Earley said. "And it strikes an equally destructive blow to
< rehabilitation efforts in the prisons of America."
"prisoners" not ex-convicts.
<Religious programs in prisons once used to be chaplaincy efforts and
< occasional visits by volunteers, but they have now grown into
< ambitious programs like InnerChange, Professor Tuttle said. He
< estimated that about 15 states had such programs.
Comparing them to chaplaincy programs, which are IN prisons. Those
outside prisons don't need chaplains since they can go to church.
Try actually READING the artcile next time.
lojbab
Do me a favor, provide the articles without a log-in requirement, and I'd be
happy to read them.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
11 Jun 2006 07:57:58 PM |
|
|
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:jj0n82hkbbr6rgqp0aqvsl88iih7crckfd@4ax.com...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
I read the link in the OP's post, and I got no feeling that the program
was
directed at prisoners that are still in jail.
Then you can't read. Here's the link the OP gave. Now follow
closely:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/03/us/03faith.html?ex=1150084800&en=374273b65c92b3c9&ei=5070
Prison programs run by religious groups
"Prison programs" are not programs outside of prison.
Here is the quote that Allison posted,
<quote>
A federal judge in Iowa ruled Friday that a
state-financed evangelical Christian program to help inmates re-enter
society was "pervasively sectarian" and violated the separation of church
and state.
</quote>
You do know what an "inmate" is, don't you? It is not someone who has
been released.
The accompanying link requires a log-in that I've elected to not participate
in, and the OP ought not provide links that demand a log-in,
Alas, but with the NYT and most other newspapers, once you've
established your ID with them, it usually sets up a cookie so you
don't log in each time, and it becomes easy to forget that a log in is
required. Furthermore, if that is his source, then that is what he
should cite. Otherwise he cannot provide any link.
but that's
another matter that has more to do with netiquette than anything else.
So, all we (I) have to work with is "help inmates re-enter society." When an
inmate re-enters society, I assume he has been released.
The idea is to provide the help BEFORE he is released, so that the
inmate has the skills needed to succeed when he first gets out. Of
course their ideas of the skills needed includes having faith in Jesus
Christ, which is why government funding isn't allowed.
The inmate that
partakes in the program elects to do so, and he feels that he needs the help
that is being offered.
If government pays, then *WE* don't get to choose whether to pay for
indoctrinating him with religious beliefs that not all of us hold.
Furthermore, since the program provides extra benefits while in prison
to those in the program, inmates might choose it for other reasons
than wanting help.
The information given does not describe the
compulsory nature of the program, and if inmates are compelled to
participate, then I'd agree that the program is a bad one. But, if
participation is voluntary, then I'm all for it because I want inmates to
get out and stay out, and if they feel they need religion to stay out of
jail, then I say we ought to give it to them.
Then you contribute to the organization, but stay out of the rest of
our pockets.
Do me a favor, provide the articles without a log-in requirement, and I'd be
happy to read them.
Tough. That is where the article appeared. If you aren't informed,
don't make a fool of yourself.
lojbab
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jeff Strickland" |
|
| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
11 Jun 2006 11:44:43 PM |
|
|
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:jsdp829cj7pt9ncgluug23kas2f3ebj9n2@4ax.com...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:jj0n82hkbbr6rgqp0aqvsl88iih7crckfd@4ax.com...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
I read the link in the OP's post, and I got no feeling that the program
was
directed at prisoners that are still in jail.
Then you can't read. Here's the link the OP gave. Now follow
closely:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/03/us/03faith.html?ex=1150084800&en=374273b65c92b3c9&ei=5070
Prison programs run by religious groups
"Prison programs" are not programs outside of prison.
Here is the quote that Allison posted,
<quote>
A federal judge in Iowa ruled Friday that a
state-financed evangelical Christian program to help inmates re-enter
society was "pervasively sectarian" and violated the separation of church
and state.
</quote>
You do know what an "inmate" is, don't you? It is not someone who has
been released.
The accompanying link requires a log-in that I've elected to not
participate
in, and the OP ought not provide links that demand a log-in,
Alas, but with the NYT and most other newspapers, once you've
established your ID with them, it usually sets up a cookie so you
don't log in each time, and it becomes easy to forget that a log in is
required. Furthermore, if that is his source, then that is what he
should cite. Otherwise he cannot provide any link.
But the point is, I don't want to give my ID to the NYT.
He can provide the link, and the text and give reference to the source. That
way, those that want the actual text to verify the post can go and see it,
the rest of us can pretend to trust the OP would not lie to us and claim the
NYT did it.
but that's
another matter that has more to do with netiquette than anything else.
So, all we (I) have to work with is "help inmates re-enter society." When
an
inmate re-enters society, I assume he has been released.
The idea is to provide the help BEFORE he is released, so that the
inmate has the skills needed to succeed when he first gets out. Of
course their ideas of the skills needed includes having faith in Jesus
Christ, which is why government funding isn't allowed.
The inmate that
partakes in the program elects to do so, and he feels that he needs the
help
that is being offered.
If government pays, then *WE* don't get to choose whether to pay for
indoctrinating him with religious beliefs that not all of us hold.
Furthermore, since the program provides extra benefits while in prison
to those in the program, inmates might choose it for other reasons
than wanting help.
The information given does not describe the
compulsory nature of the program, and if inmates are compelled to
participate, then I'd agree that the program is a bad one. But, if
participation is voluntary, then I'm all for it because I want inmates to
get out and stay out, and if they feel they need religion to stay out of
jail, then I say we ought to give it to them.
Then you contribute to the organization, but stay out of the rest of
our pockets.
Do me a favor, provide the articles without a log-in requirement, and I'd
be
happy to read them.
Tough. That is where the article appeared. If you aren't informed,
don't make a fool of yourself.
***** you, Bob. Jesus H. Christ! You liberals are impossible to please.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
12 Jun 2006 06:15:09 AM |
|
|
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
But the point is, I don't want to give my ID to the NYT.
Tough. Then don't complain because you cannot read their articles -
it's your choice. I personally have no problem - my name in return
for access to a service of that quality. Some people of course enter
fake IDs, though you usually have to have a valid email.
But it is no more impolite to site a source that you have to make
extra effort in order to get, than to cite a book that you might have
to go to extreme efforts to obtain. As long as the cite is valid, it
is proper citation.
And in the case of a major news story, you could easily have found a
dozen other newspapers with pretty much the same information, rather
than guessing erroneously that the program was talking about people
released from prison - and then stubbornly arguing from ignorance
after being told by people who had actually read the article that it
was NOT about people already released, especially since I provided
quotes from the article showing this.
He can provide the link,
yes
and the text
ever heard of copyright? There is no justification in copying an
entire article onto Usenet, just because some chicken shot like
yourself does not want to provide your name in return for access to
copyrighted material.
and give reference to the source.
He did.
That way, those that want the actual text to verify the post can go and see it,
the rest of us can pretend to trust the OP would not lie to us and claim the
NYT did it.
Anyone who really cares would check out the NYT article and give their
name.
Tough. That is where the article appeared. If you aren't informed,
don't make a fool of yourself.
***** you, Bob. Jesus H. Christ!
Good Christian taking the Lord's name in vain.
You liberals are impossible to please.
You idiots (of whatever political stripe) are hard to educate.
lojbab (not a liberal except to those to the right of Attila the Hun).
lojbab
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
14 Jun 2006 03:03:41 PM |
|
|
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
:|
:|"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
:|news:jj0n82hkbbr6rgqp0aqvsl88iih7crckfd@4ax.com...
:|> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
:|>>I read the link in the OP's post, and I got no feeling that the program
:|>>was
:|>>directed at prisoners that are still in jail.
:|>
:|> Then you can't read. Here's the link the OP gave. Now follow
:|> closely:
:|> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/03/us/03faith.html?ex=1150084800&en=374273b65c92b3c9&ei=5070
:|>
:|>>Prison programs run by religious groups
:|>
:|> "Prison programs" are not programs outside of prison.
:|>
:|
:|Here is the quote that Allison posted,
:|<quote>
:|A federal judge in Iowa ruled Friday that a
:|state-financed evangelical Christian program to help inmates re-enter
:|society was "pervasively sectarian" and violated the separation of church
:|and state.
:|</quote>
:|
:|The accompanying link requires a log-in that I've elected to not participate
:|in, and the OP ought not provide links that demand a log-in, but that's
:|another matter that has more to do with netiquette than anything else.
Whine, whimper cry bawl
Take it up with Google since that is the source of my church state news
items I post. You have to request to receive the daily news items .
They supply the brief comments and the URL
So ***** to them you thoughts on netiquette which is probably another
subject you know nothing about.
:|So, all we (I) have to work with is "help inmates re-enter society." When an
:|inmate re-enters society, I assume he has been released.
Haven't you ever heard you shouldn't assume? You make an as of yourself
but then you do that on a regular basis
:|The inmate that
:|partakes in the program elects to do so, and he feels that he needs the help
:|that is being offered. The information given does not describe the
:|compulsory nature of the program, and if inmates are compelled to
:|participate, then I'd agree that the program is a bad one. But, if
:|participation is voluntary, then I'm all for it because I want inmates to
:|get out and stay out, and if they feel they need religion to stay out of
:|jail, then I say we ought to give it to them. If they need anything to stay
:|ouf of jail, then we should do all we can to provide it, and if it takes
:|religion to be the conduit for the services they need, then so be it.
Didn't you know, the most religious places on earth are American jails and
prisons. Almost everyone has found God and is highly religious.
That is why 80% come back again, That is why there is so much violence in
jails and prisons
Most of these programs don't do much of anything to change anything.
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jeff Strickland" |
|
| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
14 Jun 2006 11:01:46 PM |
|
|
<buckeye-elo@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:esq092t5ipg1jeputmnvna4mi4qc9vf05s@4ax.com...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
:|
:|"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
:|news:jj0n82hkbbr6rgqp0aqvsl88iih7crckfd@4ax.com...
:|> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
:|>>I read the link in the OP's post, and I got no feeling that the
program
:|>>was
:|>>directed at prisoners that are still in jail.
:|>
:|> Then you can't read. Here's the link the OP gave. Now follow
:|> closely:
:|>
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/03/us/03faith.html?ex=1150084800&en=374273b65c92b3c9&ei=5070
:|>
:|>>Prison programs run by religious groups
:|>
:|> "Prison programs" are not programs outside of prison.
:|>
:|
:|Here is the quote that Allison posted,
:|<quote>
:|A federal judge in Iowa ruled Friday that a
:|state-financed evangelical Christian program to help inmates re-enter
:|society was "pervasively sectarian" and violated the separation of
church
:|and state.
:|</quote>
:|
:|The accompanying link requires a log-in that I've elected to not
participate
:|in, and the OP ought not provide links that demand a log-in, but that's
:|another matter that has more to do with netiquette than anything else.
Whine, whimper cry bawl
Take it up with Google since that is the source of my church state news
items I post. You have to request to receive the daily news items .
They supply the brief comments and the URL
It's not Goggle's fault that you link to the New York Times site that
requires visitors to log in.
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
15 Jun 2006 11:05:27 AM |
|
|
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
:|
:|<buckeye-elo@nospam.net> wrote in message
:|news:esq092t5ipg1jeputmnvna4mi4qc9vf05s@4ax.com...
:|> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
:|>
:|>>:|
:|>>:|"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
:|>>:|news:jj0n82hkbbr6rgqp0aqvsl88iih7crckfd@4ax.com...
:|>>:|> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
:|>>:|>>I read the link in the OP's post, and I got no feeling that the
:|>>program
:|>>:|>>was
:|>>:|>>directed at prisoners that are still in jail.
:|>>:|>
:|>>:|> Then you can't read. Here's the link the OP gave. Now follow
:|>>:|> closely:
:|>>:|>
:|>>http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/03/us/03faith.html?ex=1150084800&en=374273b65c92b3c9&ei=5070
:|>>:|>
:|>>:|>>Prison programs run by religious groups
:|>>:|>
:|>>:|> "Prison programs" are not programs outside of prison.
:|>>:|>
:|>>:|
:|>>:|Here is the quote that Allison posted,
:|>>:|<quote>
:|>>:|A federal judge in Iowa ruled Friday that a
:|>>:|state-financed evangelical Christian program to help inmates re-enter
:|>>:|society was "pervasively sectarian" and violated the separation of
:|>>church
:|>>:|and state.
:|>>:|</quote>
:|>>:|
:|>>:|The accompanying link requires a log-in that I've elected to not
:|>>participate
:|>>:|in, and the OP ought not provide links that demand a log-in, but that's
:|>>:|another matter that has more to do with netiquette than anything else.
:|>
:|> Whine, whimper cry bawl
:|> Take it up with Google since that is the source of my church state news
:|> items I post. You have to request to receive the daily news items .
:|> They supply the brief comments and the URL
:|>
:|>
:|
:|It's not Goggle's fault that you link to the New York Times site that
:|requires visitors to log in.
:|
Hey butt breath, which part of the following gave you a headache and
confused you:
-------------------------
Take it up with Google since that is the source of my church state news
items I post. You have to request to receive the daily news items .
They supply the brief comments and the URL
So ***** to them you thoughts on netiquette which is probably another
subject you know nothing about.
-----------------------------
They - - supply - - the - - brief - - comments - - and - - the - - URL
Observe retard:
From : Google Alerts <googlealerts-noreply@google.com>
Sent : Sunday, June 11, 2006 10:01 PM
To : me
Subject : Google Alert - separation of church and state
Google Alert for: separation of church and state
No Need for Soul-Searching
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13250003/site/newsweek/
Newsweek - USA
.... proclaim, over Mexico's soul, over the highly abstract, partly
imaginary, broad ideological themes of nationalism, separation of church
and state, the market ...
Religion and sports don't mix
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060611/2054341.asp
Buffalo News - NY, United States
By MURRAY LIGHT. Separation of church and state has long been a fundamental
and cherished American principal. There's been some erosion ...
Lawsuit is divisive issue in city
http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060611/NEWS01/606110303/1002
Hattiesburg American - Hattiesburg,MS,USA
.... for Fairley, DuPree's childhood friend and political adviser, Morrow
said since the government is so gung-ho on separation of church and state,
perhaps Fairley ...
Gregory Rodriguez: Change fuels America's faithful
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-rodriguez11jun11,1,6786090.column?coll=la-util-op-ed&ctrack=1&cset=true
Los Angeles Times - CA,USA
.... Although many religious conservatives grouse that the separation of
church and state excludes them from the public square, it is another source
of our nation's ...
Poland's leaders lean to the right
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060611/NEWS07/606110653/1009
Detroit Free Press - United States
.... Andrzej Dominiczak, codirector of the Polish Humanist Federation, an
organization that aims to maintain a separation of church and state, said
the president's ...
This once a day Google Alert is brought to you by Google.
***************************************************
Google supplies the URLs idiot. If it happens to be a site the requires a
subscription that is life.
If you have a ***** it is with Google for putting you in that terrible
perplexing and confusing position of having to make a gut wrenching
decisions, to register or not.
Personally I don't care what you decide. I registered with many of the
main newspaper sites along time ago
I provide that which google provides for those who have an interest in the
newsgroups and a couple other sites I post to or moderate. Many people
have already subscribed to those sites too so it is no big deal to them.
Others might go ahead and register while still others elect not to.
So there stupid. Take it up with Google or shove it up your butt. Either
way I could care less.
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
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| User: "Jeff Strickland" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
15 Jun 2006 10:33:39 PM |
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<buckeye-elo@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:381392hhtv79sif92nls0ucrfm38nt7p0d@4ax.com...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
:|
:|<buckeye-elo@nospam.net> wrote in message
:|news:esq092t5ipg1jeputmnvna4mi4qc9vf05s@4ax.com...
:|> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
:|>
:|>>:|
:|>>:|"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
:|>>:|news:jj0n82hkbbr6rgqp0aqvsl88iih7crckfd@4ax.com...
:|>>:|> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
:|>>:|>>I read the link in the OP's post, and I got no feeling that the
:|>>program
:|>>:|>>was
:|>>:|>>directed at prisoners that are still in jail.
:|>>:|>
:|>>:|> Then you can't read. Here's the link the OP gave. Now follow
:|>>:|> closely:
:|>>:|>
:|>>http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/03/us/03faith.html?ex=1150084800&en=374273b65c92b3c9&ei=5070
:|>>:|>
:|>>:|>>Prison programs run by religious groups
:|>>:|>
:|>>:|> "Prison programs" are not programs outside of prison.
:|>>:|>
:|>>:|
:|>>:|Here is the quote that Allison posted,
:|>>:|<quote>
:|>>:|A federal judge in Iowa ruled Friday that a
:|>>:|state-financed evangelical Christian program to help inmates
re-enter
:|>>:|society was "pervasively sectarian" and violated the separation of
:|>>church
:|>>:|and state.
:|>>:|</quote>
:|>>:|
:|>>:|The accompanying link requires a log-in that I've elected to not
:|>>participate
:|>>:|in, and the OP ought not provide links that demand a log-in, but
that's
:|>>:|another matter that has more to do with netiquette than anything
else.
:|>
:|> Whine, whimper cry bawl
:|> Take it up with Google since that is the source of my church state
news
:|> items I post. You have to request to receive the daily news items .
:|> They supply the brief comments and the URL
:|>
:|>
:|
:|It's not Goggle's fault that you link to the New York Times site that
:|requires visitors to log in.
:|
Hey butt breath, which part of the following gave you a headache and
confused you:
-------------------------
Take it up with Google since that is the source of my church state news
items I post. You have to request to receive the daily news items .
They supply the brief comments and the URL
So ***** to them you thoughts on netiquette which is probably another
subject you know nothing about.
-----------------------------
They - - supply - - the - - brief - - comments - - and - - the - - URL
Observe retard:
There is no reason you can not follow the link, then cut and paste the
story, and give proper recognition of the source by providing the link.
Google has nothing at all to do with what you elect to post. And, if yo want
to post ***** that requires a log in, then it's you that is the idiot. Idiot.
For such a smart guy, you leave a lot to be desired.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
16 Jun 2006 08:36:14 AM |
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"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
There is no reason you can not follow the link, then cut and paste the
story, and give proper recognition of the source by providing the link.
Yes there is. It is a copyright violation to copy the entire story,
even if you give "proper recognition". Learn about copyright law, you
fool.
lojbab
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| User: "Jeff Strickland" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
17 Jun 2006 08:18:07 AM |
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"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:csc592h1nm77rm1gsufefpu96h0ag5n6g5@4ax.com...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
There is no reason you can not follow the link, then cut and paste the
story, and give proper recognition of the source by providing the link.
Yes there is. It is a copyright violation to copy the entire story,
even if you give "proper recognition". Learn about copyright law, you
fool.
I happen to know that posting a newspaper article is not a copyright
infringement if one gives recognition to the source AND does not make any
edits. And, does not make any money. Since this is technically a discussion
group, it is permissible to post then discuss without running afoul of the
copyright laws. And, if the article is in the NYT, then it should be found
in other places where they do not harvest personal information.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
17 Jun 2006 10:55:39 PM |
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"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:csc592h1nm77rm1gsufefpu96h0ag5n6g5@4ax.com...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
There is no reason you can not follow the link, then cut and paste the
story, and give proper recognition of the source by providing the link.
Yes there is. It is a copyright violation to copy the entire story,
even if you give "proper recognition". Learn about copyright law, you
fool.
I happen to know that posting a newspaper article is not a copyright
infringement if one gives recognition to the source AND does not make any
edits. And, does not make any money.
I happen to know that you are wrong, having actually asked said
newspapers about it. I've also read standard netiquette guides
addressing that very issue.
Since this is technically a discussion
group, it is permissible to post then discuss
It is permissible to post SMALL EXCERPTS and then discuss. You need
to do both excerpt and discuss in order for it to be fair use.
without running afoul of the
copyright laws. And, if the article is in the NYT, then it should be found
in other places where they do not harvest personal information.
If it is in the NYT, then if it appears elsewhere, it is either a
copyright violation or it is with the express permission of the NYT,
and subject to their license restrictions.
lojbab
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Court Rejects Evangelical Prison Plan Over State Aid |
08 Jun 2006 08:20:46 PM |
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In article <aLWdneJIt5eNVhXZnZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@ez2.net> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> writes:
<CLICK@KNICKLAS.COM> wrote in message
news:1o2b82h6mkti72f4do4jg3i7tmtdvlgcgg@4ax.com...
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:40:51 -0700, "Jeff Strickland"
<crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
Great. Now we are taking tools away from groups that want to help inmates
become useful and contributing members of society. Nice.
Wrong conclusion, (as usual) JeffyLoon
Prisons are government
The organizations are religious based
religion and government are separate.
But, the prisoner is OUT of jail when religion comes along to help him
adjust to life on the outside. The prisoner is not a prisoner any more, he
is just a guy that needs help to keep from going back in prison again. If we
help religion help him, then maybe he won't go back into prison, and we are
all better off because it's cheaper to keep these guys on the outside
instead of shuffling them back inside time and time again.
Jesus warned that many who thought they were headed for heaven will
be in for a big surprise if they neglect, among other things, to
visit those in prison.
So in an 80% Christian country, that gives you nearly a quarter
of a billion people who ought to provide the kind of help you
describe on a voluntary basis, for their own souls' sakes.
I'd think that to be a sufficient number.
-- cary
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