| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"Robert Henderson" |
| Date: |
11 Jan 2007 06:47:38 AM |
| Object: |
Deciding who goes to which state school |
The answer in urban areas - rural ones often have only one school
children can reasonably go to - is to retain catchment areas but extend
them ( use 30 minutes travelling time by public transport as the
criterion for the boundaries) - allow parents to apply to as many
schools as they want within the catchment area, then draw lots to decide
who goes to which school. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
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| User: "Larry Hewitt" |
|
| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
11 Jan 2007 11:27:35 AM |
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"Robert Henderson" <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Sgr$8TdqHjpFFw3i@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
The answer in urban areas - rural ones often have only one school
children can reasonably go to - is to retain catchment areas but extend
them ( use 30 minutes travelling time by public transport as the criterion
for the boundaries) - allow parents to apply to as many schools as they
want within the catchment area, then draw lots to decide who goes to which
school. RH
Many districts do this now.
I am familiar with Baltimore, MD, and Charlotte, NC, and they both do this.
Many other districts allow studnts to go to a school other than the one they
are assigned to fo "good" reason.
That said, the spectre of school choice is really no mor ethan a will o' the
wisp.
The experience of Chalrotte, NC is instructive.
A few years ago the courts ended school bussing to intgrate the schools.
*The school board replaced bussing with a pure choice syste,. Each student
every spring gets to request 3 schools to attend the next year. Any
school --- academies, traditional, charter, ..., all are in the system.
Then the district workks some magic with the requests to assign students.
There are 2 priorities.
Students requesting to go to their neighborhood school as their first choice
automatically are assigned there.
And students who have an older subling attending their forst choice get tht
assignment.
Some schools, like the academies, have ntrance requireents that can exclude
attendance, but no preferrence is given if entrance requirements are met.
What the district has found is that overwhelmingly students want to attend
their nighborhood school More than 3/4 of students request their
neighborhood school as their first choice
More than 90% attend their neightborhood schools.
Most of this difference was made up of students requesting attendance at an
academy who were not qualifed --- admission is based on end of year test
taken after the assignments are sumbmitted --- or want to got to an academy
but it is overcrowded.
The truth is that tmost want to go to their neighborhoos school to be close
to home, parents, and friends.
A large percentage of those who choose a non-neighborhood school do so to
return to an old neighborhood.
And in any event, with the large number of priority students requesting
slots the ability to choose a is severely limited.
Larry
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
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| User: "Robert Henderson" |
|
| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
11 Jan 2007 11:31:20 PM |
|
|
In message <eo5s2i$sgo$1@news04.infoave.net>, Larry Hewitt
<larryhewi@comporium.net> writes
"Robert Henderson" <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Sgr$8TdqHjpFFw3i@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
The answer in urban areas - rural ones often have only one school
children can reasonably go to - is to retain catchment areas but extend
them ( use 30 minutes travelling time by public transport as the criterion
for the boundaries) - allow parents to apply to as many schools as they
want within the catchment area, then draw lots to decide who goes to which
school. RH
Many districts do this now.
I am familiar with Baltimore, MD, and Charlotte, NC, and they both do
this.
Many other districts allow studnts to go to a school other than the one
they are assigned to fo "good" reason.
That said, the spectre of school choice is really no mor ethan a will
o' the wisp.
The experience of Chalrotte, NC is instructive.
A few years ago the courts ended school bussing to intgrate the
schools. *The school board replaced bussing with a pure choice syste,.
Each student every spring gets to request 3 schools to attend the next
year. Any school --- academies, traditional, charter, ..., all are in
the system.
Then the district workks some magic with the requests to assign
students.
There are 2 priorities.
Students requesting to go to their neighborhood school as their first
choice automatically are assigned there.
And students who have an older subling attending their forst choice get
tht assignment.
I am utterly against this. Siblings should be sent to different schools
to develop their sense of independence. RH
Some schools, like the academies, have ntrance requireents that can
exclude attendance, but no preferrence is given if entrance
requirements are met.
What the district has found is that overwhelmingly students want to
attend their nighborhood school More than 3/4 of students request their
neighborhood school as their first choice
More than 90% attend their neightborhood schools.
My thirty minute travelling time by public transport would ensure this.
rH
Most of this difference was made up of students requesting attendance
at an academy who were not qualifed --- admission is based on end of
year test taken after the assignments are sumbmitted --- or want to got
to an academy but it is overcrowded.
The truth is that tmost want to go to their neighborhoos school to be
close to home, parents, and friends.
A large percentage of those who choose a non-neighborhood school do so
to return to an old neighborhood.
And in any event, with the large number of priority students requesting
slots the ability to choose a is severely limited.
Larry
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
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| User: "abelard" |
|
| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
12 Jan 2007 10:15:33 AM |
|
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On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 05:31:20 +0000, Robert Henderson
<philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk>
typed:
In message <eo5s2i$sgo$1@news04.infoave.net>, Larry Hewitt
<larryhewi@comporium.net> writes
"Robert Henderson" <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Sgr$8TdqHjpFFw3i@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
The answer in urban areas - rural ones often have only one school
children can reasonably go to - is to retain catchment areas but extend
them ( use 30 minutes travelling time by public transport as the criterion
for the boundaries) - allow parents to apply to as many schools as they
want within the catchment area, then draw lots to decide who goes to which
school. RH
Many districts do this now.
I am familiar with Baltimore, MD, and Charlotte, NC, and they both do
this.
Many other districts allow studnts to go to a school other than the one
they are assigned to fo "good" reason.
That said, the spectre of school choice is really no mor ethan a will
o' the wisp.
The experience of Chalrotte, NC is instructive.
A few years ago the courts ended school bussing to intgrate the
schools. *The school board replaced bussing with a pure choice syste,.
Each student every spring gets to request 3 schools to attend the next
year. Any school --- academies, traditional, charter, ..., all are in
the system.
Then the district workks some magic with the requests to assign
students.
There are 2 priorities.
Students requesting to go to their neighborhood school as their first
choice automatically are assigned there.
And students who have an older subling attending their forst choice get
tht assignment.
I am utterly against this. Siblings should be sent to different schools
to develop their sense of independence. RH
indeed...and married families should also be broken up in similar
manner....let alone any sign of cohesion in a local area....
how else can we ever welcome the glorious marxist revolution
Some schools, like the academies, have ntrance requireents that can
exclude attendance, but no preferrence is given if entrance
requirements are met.
What the district has found is that overwhelmingly students want to
attend their nighborhood school More than 3/4 of students request their
neighborhood school as their first choice
More than 90% attend their neightborhood schools.
My thirty minute travelling time by public transport would ensure this.
rH
better make it 2 hours each way....
not only would it keep people out of the way....it would encourage
public transport development
regards
--
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics
energy, education, politics, etc 1,552,396 document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
good people do nothing [] trust actions not words
only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
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| User: "Robert Henderson" |
|
| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
13 Jan 2007 12:54:49 AM |
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In message <kscfq2lddk092t7drr51jcgonq4s8nrm01@4ax.com>, abelard
<abelard3@abelard.org> writes
My thirty minute travelling time by public transport would ensure this.
rH
better make it 2 hours each way....
not only would it keep people out of the way....it would encourage
public transport development
Oh dear, the minute computing power of the 1947 vintage valve computer
cruelly exposed once again. Rh
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
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| User: "abelard" |
|
| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
13 Jan 2007 07:27:18 AM |
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On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 06:54:49 +0000, Robert Henderson
<philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk>
typed:
In message <kscfq2lddk092t7drr51jcgonq4s8nrm01@4ax.com>, abelard
<abelard3@abelard.org> writes
My thirty minute travelling time by public transport would ensure this.
rH
better make it 2 hours each way....
not only would it keep people out of the way....it would encourage
public transport development
Oh dear, the minute computing power of the 1947 vintage valve computer
cruelly exposed once again. Rh
impressive reply mister marx....are you a bot?
regards
--
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics
energy, education, politics, etc 1,552,396 document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
good people do nothing [] trust actions not words
only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
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| User: "Robert Henderson" |
|
| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
14 Jan 2007 12:20:40 AM |
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In message <6gnhq2djnpdrqn3opndl1dplv8mou39qav@4ax.com>, abelard
<abelard3@abelard.org> writes
Oh dear, the minute computing power of the 1947 vintage valve computer
cruelly exposed once again. Rh
impressive reply mister marx....are you a bot?
regards
The cruel exposure continues. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
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| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
12 Jan 2007 07:42:56 AM |
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On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:31:20 -0600, Robert Henderson wrote
(in article <uVrgxvBo0xpFFwzt@anywhere.demon.co.uk>):
In message <eo5s2i$sgo$1@news04.infoave.net>, Larry Hewitt
<larryhewi@comporium.net> writes
"Robert Henderson" <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Sgr$8TdqHjpFFw3i@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
The answer in urban areas - rural ones often have only one school
children can reasonably go to - is to retain catchment areas but extend
them ( use 30 minutes travelling time by public transport as the criterion
for the boundaries) - allow parents to apply to as many schools as they
want within the catchment area, then draw lots to decide who goes to which
school. RH
Many districts do this now.
I am familiar with Baltimore, MD, and Charlotte, NC, and they both do
this.
Many other districts allow studnts to go to a school other than the one
they are assigned to fo "good" reason.
That said, the spectre of school choice is really no mor ethan a will
o' the wisp.
The experience of Chalrotte, NC is instructive.
A few years ago the courts ended school bussing to intgrate the
schools. *The school board replaced bussing with a pure choice syste,.
Each student every spring gets to request 3 schools to attend the next
year. Any school --- academies, traditional, charter, ..., all are in
the system.
Then the district workks some magic with the requests to assign
students.
There are 2 priorities.
Students requesting to go to their neighborhood school as their first
choice automatically are assigned there.
And students who have an older subling attending their forst choice get
tht assignment.
I am utterly against this. Siblings should be sent to different schools
to develop their sense of independence. RH
How, uh, "urban".
As usual.
Gray Shockley
Vicksburg, MS US
Some schools, like the academies, have ntrance requireents that can
exclude attendance, but no preferrence is given if entrance
requirements are met.
What the district has found is that overwhelmingly students want to
attend their nighborhood school More than 3/4 of students request their
neighborhood school as their first choice
More than 90% attend their neightborhood schools.
My thirty minute travelling time by public transport would ensure this.
rH
Most of this difference was made up of students requesting attendance
at an academy who were not qualifed --- admission is based on end of
year test taken after the assignments are sumbmitted --- or want to got
to an academy but it is overcrowded.
The truth is that tmost want to go to their neighborhoos school to be
close to home, parents, and friends.
A large percentage of those who choose a non-neighborhood school do so
to return to an old neighborhood.
And in any event, with the large number of priority students requesting
slots the ability to choose a is severely limited.
Larry
.
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| User: "Robert Henderson" |
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| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
13 Jan 2007 12:55:40 AM |
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In message <0001HW.C1CCEC800000EDB0F0182648@news.giganews.com>, Gray
Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com> writes
How, uh, "urban".
As usual.
Gray Shockley
Vicksburg, MS US
I did point out in my original post that the system does not work in
rural areas. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
12 Jan 2007 02:38:02 AM |
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Robert Henderson wrote:
In message <eo5s2i$sgo$1@news04.infoave.net>, Larry Hewitt
<larryhewi@comporium.net> writes
[..]
And students who have an older subling attending their forst choice get
tht assignment.
I am utterly against this. Siblings should be sent to different schools
to develop their sense of independence. RH
It does seem an odd criterion. By sheer fluke, all four of us in my
family went to different secondary schools, and, as a matter of choice,
we sent our wo children to different secondary schools.
.
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| User: "Larry Hewitt" |
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| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
12 Jan 2007 02:22:35 PM |
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<joblard@hushmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168591082.205930.183900@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Robert Henderson wrote:
In message <eo5s2i$sgo$1@news04.infoave.net>, Larry Hewitt
<larryhewi@comporium.net> writes
[..]
And students who have an older subling attending their forst choice get
tht assignment.
I am utterly against this. Siblings should be sent to different schools
to develop their sense of independence. RH
It does seem an odd criterion. By sheer fluke, all four of us in my
family went to different secondary schools, and, as a matter of choice,
we sent our wo children to different secondary schools.
Well, this is the south and "family" is a big deal.
Parents wanted it, so they got it. I suspect the real reason is
transportation. Most students not attending their neighborhood school must
use personal transportation --- buses in Charlotte are next to worthless
with most lines only running at most twice an hour. It can take an hour and
a half, with two transfers standing at a bus stop for 15 minutes, to get
across town.
Mommy and Daddy don;t want to have to drive all over the city taking the
kids to school.
Larry
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
12 Jan 2007 02:31:54 PM |
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Larry Hewitt wrote:
[...]
Well, this is the south and "family" is a big deal.
Parents wanted it, so they got it. I suspect the real reason is
transportation. Most students not attending their neighborhood school must
use personal transportation --- buses in Charlotte are next to worthless
with most lines only running at most twice an hour. It can take an hour and
a half, with two transfers standing at a bus stop for 15 minutes, to get
across town.
Mommy and Daddy don;t want to have to drive all over the city taking the
kids to school.
We're fortunate in that both our daughters' schools are within walking
distance of our house. School when I was a lad was walk - train -
walk. We had no car.
.
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| User: "Larry Hewitt" |
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| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
12 Jan 2007 03:32:37 PM |
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<joblard@hushmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168633912.586007.86870@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Larry Hewitt wrote:
[...]
Well, this is the south and "family" is a big deal.
Parents wanted it, so they got it. I suspect the real reason is
transportation. Most students not attending their neighborhood school
must
use personal transportation --- buses in Charlotte are next to worthless
with most lines only running at most twice an hour. It can take an hour
and
a half, with two transfers standing at a bus stop for 15 minutes, to get
across town.
Mommy and Daddy don;t want to have to drive all over the city taking the
kids to school.
We're fortunate in that both our daughters' schools are within walking
distance of our house. School when I was a lad was walk - train -
walk. We had no car.
I walked to school all but my first two and last 2 years. First sand second
graders rode a bus for safety. And we had moved to a rural area and school
was 10 miles away for my last 2 years.
I'm one who believes in local schools, too. Even 10 miles was a deterrence
to participation in after school programs, sports, dances, etc.
It's funny, I was just talking about this with a professional driver this
afternoon. Traffic around some schools around here, the magnet
schools/academies, that don;t serve on;by the local community, is horrible.
Cops actually block main arteries for minutes at a time to let the school
parking lots empty, whether it is the kids or parents driving
Schools also act as a anchor for their communities. We have several magnet
schools in the center city, and the area is rapidly becoming a ghost town.
After 3:30 the area is deserted.
Heck, the magnet high school near me does;t even have a football or
basketball team. Whole industries have cropped up to provide these kids with
sports teams. They go to warehouse "gyms" with mats ont he floor to
practice, and play in public parks.
Larry
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
11 Jan 2007 07:42:28 AM |
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Robert Henderson wrote:
The answer in urban areas - rural ones often have only one school
children can reasonably go to - is to retain catchment areas but extend
them ( use 30 minutes travelling time by public transport as the
criterion for the boundaries) - allow parents to apply to as many
schools as they want within the catchment area, then draw lots to decide
who goes to which school. RH
Alternatively, auction off places at the most popular schools, and use
the funds raised thereby to improve the less popular ones.
.
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| User: "Gaz" |
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| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
11 Jan 2007 10:02:36 AM |
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Robert Henderson wrote:
The answer in urban areas - rural ones often have only one school
children can reasonably go to - is to retain catchment areas but extend
them ( use 30 minutes travelling time by public transport as the
criterion for the boundaries) - allow parents to apply to as many
schools as they want within the catchment area, then draw lots to decide
who goes to which school. RH
But, a good idea, but something the present government is unlikely to look
at. We have to see the actions of this government, through the way it treats
its client voting groups.
Gaz
.
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| User: "Robert Henderson" |
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| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
13 Jan 2007 12:57:15 AM |
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In message <50n5f7F1gp5hkU1@mid.individual.net>, Gaz <gazter@msn.com>
writes
Robert Henderson wrote:
The answer in urban areas - rural ones often have only one school
children can reasonably go to - is to retain catchment areas but extend
them ( use 30 minutes travelling time by public transport as the
criterion for the boundaries) - allow parents to apply to as many
schools as they want within the catchment area, then draw lots to decide
who goes to which school. RH
But, a good idea, but something the present government is unlikely to look
at. We have to see the actions of this government, through the way it treats
its client voting groups.
Gaz
It would be very interesting to see what effect such a system would have
on the ethnic composition of schools. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
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| User: "Larry Hewitt" |
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| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
13 Jan 2007 01:43:01 PM |
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"Robert Henderson" <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:CagbChYLLIqFFwed@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
In message <50n5f7F1gp5hkU1@mid.individual.net>, Gaz <gazter@msn.com>
writes
Robert Henderson wrote:
The answer in urban areas - rural ones often have only one school
children can reasonably go to - is to retain catchment areas but extend
them ( use 30 minutes travelling time by public transport as the
criterion for the boundaries) - allow parents to apply to as many
schools as they want within the catchment area, then draw lots to decide
who goes to which school. RH
But, a good idea, but something the present government is unlikely to look
at. We have to see the actions of this government, through the way it
treats
its client voting groups.
Gaz
It would be very interesting to see what effect such a system would have
on the ethnic composition of schools. RH
Communities in the US are still pretty much racially divided.
Charlotte, f. ex, had forced bussing for racial diversity and schools were
reflective of the city as a whole
Within 3 years of eliminating bussing and implementing choice the school
system had de facto segregation.
After attending an academy or attending a school with a sibling, the third
most common reason for leaving a local school is race. No one comes out and
says it, but it is apparent. (As ana aside, private schools, especially
private religious schools like Charlotte Christian and Charlotte Lutheran,
are overwhelmingly white. Many are 100% white).
60% minority appears to be a tipping point. As soon as a school becomes
about 2/3 brown (Hispanic or Black), whites flee in droves.
An analysis of local (non-academy) Charlotte High schools found every one of
them to be racially imbalanced when compared to the city as a whole or even
to their neighborhoods..
Independence High, f. ex., is about 60% Hispanic and 30% Black, while
Garinger HS, also on the East side of town, is over 80% white.
Probably because of the cost and difficulty of providing private
transportation to any school other than the local school, the poor rarely
select other than the local school, so schools in heavily --- not even
majority --- minority neighborhoods quickly have predominalty minority
enrollment.
School quality appears to have little to do with the migration. In 2001
Independence High made US news list of the top 1000 schools in the country.
By 2005 it was segregated and on the state watch list for unacceptable
student performance.
Larry
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
.
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| User: "Robert Henderson" |
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| Title: Re: Deciding who goes to which state school |
14 Jan 2007 12:50:46 AM |
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In message <eobco7$d8$1@news04.infoave.net>, Larry Hewitt
<larryhewi@comporium.net> writes
It would be very interesting to see what effect such a system would have
on the ethnic composition of schools. RH
Communities in the US are still pretty much racially divided.
Charlotte, f. ex, had forced bussing for racial diversity and schools
were reflective of the city as a whole
Within 3 years of eliminating bussing and implementing choice the
school system had de facto segregation.
After attending an academy or attending a school with a sibling, the
third most common reason for leaving a local school is race. No one
comes out and says it, but it is apparent. (As ana aside, private
schools, especially private religious schools like Charlotte Christian
and Charlotte Lutheran, are overwhelmingly white. Many are 100% white).
60% minority appears to be a tipping point. As soon as a school
becomes about 2/3 brown (Hispanic or Black), whites flee in droves.
An analysis of local (non-academy) Charlotte High schools found every
one of them to be racially imbalanced when compared to the city as a
whole or even to their neighborhoods..
Independence High, f. ex., is about 60% Hispanic and 30% Black, while
Garinger HS, also on the East side of town, is over 80% white.
Probably because of the cost and difficulty of providing private
transportation to any school other than the local school, the poor
rarely select other than the local school, so schools in heavily ---
not even majority --- minority neighborhoods quickly have predominalty
minority enrollment.
School quality appears to have little to do with the migration. In 2001
Independence High made US news list of the top 1000 schools in the
country.
By 2005 it was segregated and on the state watch list for unacceptable
student performance.
Larry
Very interesting Larry. Of course US cities are generally much more
segregated than British ones so that would give a much greater natural
tendency towards segregation in schools. The private school experience
is the really telling one where parents have a free choice. Most English
public schools (our major private schools perversely) are
overwhelmingly white in pupil content. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
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