Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists



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Topic: Sociology > Education
User: "nan"
Date: 23 May 2004 09:45:39 PM
Object: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists
Notable quote from article:
"...that‘s the highest calling of democracy, to defend its civilians
against guilty murderers..." - Dershowitz
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Saturday, May 22, 2004 1:17 p.m. EDT
Dershowitz: U.S. Needs Improved Torture Tactics
Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz, who urged that terrorists be
tortured in a Nov. 2001 column he wrote for the Los Angeles Times,
isn't backing away from his position one bit in the wake of the Abu
Ghraib prison scandal.
In fact, the noted civil libertarian said Thursday that the only thing
U.S. did wrong was to use tactics that were amateurish and
ineffective.
"We should never do what we did at Abu Ghraib, which is turn a bunch
amateurs with no experience on to a bunch of low-level detainees and
tell them essentially, do what you have to do to soften them up,"
Dershowitz told MSNBC's "Scarborough Country."
Instead, torture of high value terror suspects should be authorized by
either the President, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the
Secretary of Defense, he urged.
Asked if he thought Americans were ready to "do what it takes" to get
information from terrorists who threaten American lives, Dershowitz
told host Joe Scarborough, "I think so. But I think Americans want us
to do it smarter, want us to do it better. We could have done it a lot
smarter."
"If we were to limit our rough interrogation methods to the most
important, high-value detainees," he said, the critics would be few.
"Nobody is complaining about what we have done to [9/11 mastermind]
Shaikh Khalid Mohammed," he noted.
The acceptance of torture in the Khalid Mohammed case, said
Dershowitz, shows that "Americans are prepared to go to extraordinary
lengths to save American lives and the lives of many others, as long
as we do it smart, and we do it with accountability."
And he challenged the claims by some pundits who say torture almost
never works because the subject will inevitably say anything to
alleviate the pain.
"We had a case in the Philippines where [local police] tortured
somebody and revealed a plot to knock down 11 or 12 commercial
airliners flying over the Pacific and a plot to kill the pope," he
noted.
And Dershowitz even defended sexual humiliation as a good way to press
Muslim detainees for critical information.
"It‘s a good thing to use women interrogators on radical Muslim
extremists," he told MSNBC. "I think it‘s a good thing to make them be
stripped naked. I think these are legitimate forms of interrogation in
cases where we have high-level prisoners who can provide high-level
information."
The top legal thinker recommended that the U.S. should unabashedly
tell the world that torturing high value terrorist suspects is
justified "because of the war that has been thrust upon us."
"As long as we do it in a way that we can be proud and hold our heads
up and say, yes, we did this," he told MSNBC. "But we have to be smart
and we have to have accountability."
The world's terrorists, he said, have "put us in a position where have
to defend our civilians. And that‘s the highest calling of democracy,
to defend its civilians against guilty murderers that are out there
trying to kill our grandchildren and kill our children."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.

User: "Alex"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 26 May 2004 12:34:24 PM
"nan" <nanleecro@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:8f49fa86.0405231845.7683a902@posting.google.com...

Notable quote from article:

"...that's the highest calling of democracy, to defend its civilians
against guilty murderers..." - Dershowitz
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Saturday, May 22, 2004 1:17 p.m. EDT
Dershowitz: U.S. Needs Improved Torture Tactics
"If we were to limit our rough interrogation methods to the most
important, high-value detainees," he said, the critics would be few.
"Nobody is complaining about what we have done to [9/11 mastermind]
Shaikh Khalid Mohammed," he noted.

Geez, did these idiots learn nothing from Vietnam?
It isn't the torture that brings results, but the efficient processing
of information. The Phoenix Project killed 44,000 people, but
never created a single active enemy agent for the US to supply
realtime information.
If you want to know more about intelligent interrogations,
and real results, read Slow Burn by Orrin DeForest.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671692585/
Alex
.

User: "Bo Raxo"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 24 May 2004 03:30:16 AM
"nan" <nanleecro@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8f49fa86.0405231845.7683a902@posting.google.com...

Notable quote from article:

"...that's the highest calling of democracy, to defend its civilians
against guilty murderers..." - Dershowitz

This would be the same Dershowitz who was the appeals attorney for Claus Von
Bulow, and was on the defense team for O.J. Simpson?
If there's an award for brazen hypocrisy, Dershowitz would be a runaway
winner.
.

User: "Steve Sullivan"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 24 May 2004 11:47:24 AM
I bet that if it was jewish terrorists instead of arab terrorists he
would not hold the same view.
Isnt what he advocates against the Geneva convention/
.
User: "Andy Katz"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 24 May 2004 01:49:27 PM
On Mon, 24 May 2004 16:47:24 GMT, Steve Sullivan <none@none.com>
wrote:

I bet that if it was jewish terrorists instead of arab terrorists he
would not hold the same view.

Isnt what he advocates against the Geneva convention/

He doesn't hold that view at all, Steve. Someone took a poorly-stated
hypothetical on his part and forged an article.
Andy Katz
***************************************************************
Being lied to so billionaires can wage war for profits
while indebting taxpayers for generations to come, now
that's just a tad bit bigger than not admitting you like
the big moist-moist lips of chunky trollops on your pecker.
Paghat, the Rat Girl
.
User: "El Senor"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 24 May 2004 03:20:33 PM
"Andy Katz" <amkatz@earthnospamlink.net> wrote:

He doesn't hold that view at all, Steve. Someone took a poorly-stated
hypothetical on his part and forged an article.

Dershowitz' LA Times article is real, as is his position that the use of
torture should be legally sanctioned in the 'ticking time bomb' scenario.
He also wrote a book about it, which is summarized here:
http://www.bc.edu/schools/law/lawreviews/meta-elements/journals/bctwj/23_1/05_TXT.htm
-Mike
.
User: "Andy Katz"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 24 May 2004 03:26:14 PM
On Mon, 24 May 2004 20:20:33 GMT, "El Senor"
<no-spam-pls@daewgfdsajhiophgrea.net> wrote:

"Andy Katz" <amkatz@earthnospamlink.net> wrote:

He doesn't hold that view at all, Steve. Someone took a poorly-stated
hypothetical on his part and forged an article.


Dershowitz' LA Times article is real, as is his position that the use of
torture should be legally sanctioned in the 'ticking time bomb' scenario.
He also wrote a book about it, which is summarized here:

http://www.bc.edu/schools/law/lawreviews/meta-elements/journals/bctwj/23_1/05_TXT.htm

I know Dersh put forth the "ticking bomb" scenario and suggested ways
in which torture might under some conditions might be justifiable.
That's a long way from the supposed LA Times piece calling for "smart"
torture.
The damned reads like the spoof it is. And I see you haven't posted
it, but rather an analysis of the ticking bomb scenario.
And I actually it serves Dersh right for compromising or appearing to
compromise his principles. But he didn't write it.
Don't you think the proposal that male terrorists be interrogated by
females, supposedly put forth in '01, was a giveaway?
Andy Katz
***************************************************************
Being lied to so billionaires can wage war for profits
while indebting taxpayers for generations to come, now
that's just a tad bit bigger than not admitting you like
the big moist-moist lips of chunky trollops on your pecker.
Paghat, the Rat Girl
.
User: "nan"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 29 May 2004 08:19:07 AM
Andy Katz <amkatz@earthnospamlink.net> wrote in message news:<4cm4b0t4vuqo1663pipoi2k5tco1esi8q8@4ax.com>...

On Mon, 24 May 2004 20:20:33 GMT, "El Senor"
<no-spam-pls@daewgfdsajhiophgrea.net> wrote:

"Andy Katz" <amkatz@earthnospamlink.net> wrote:

He doesn't hold that view at all, Steve. Someone took a poorly-stated
hypothetical on his part and forged an article.


Dershowitz' LA Times article is real, as is his position that the use of
torture should be legally sanctioned in the 'ticking time bomb' scenario.
He also wrote a book about it, which is summarized here:

http://www.bc.edu/schools/law/lawreviews/meta-elements/journals/bctwj/23_1/05_TXT.htm


I know Dersh put forth the "ticking bomb" scenario and suggested ways
in which torture might under some conditions might be justifiable.
That's a long way from the supposed LA Times piece calling for "smart"
torture.

The damned reads like the spoof it is. And I see you haven't posted
it, but rather an analysis of the ticking bomb scenario.

And I actually it serves Dersh right for compromising or appearing to
compromise his principles. But he didn't write it.

Don't you think the proposal that male terrorists be interrogated by
females, supposedly put forth in '01, was a giveaway?

Andy Katz
***************************************************************

[The Neo-Kantians and the 'Logicist' Definition of Number
Jarmo Pulkkinen
University of Oulu
Jarmo.Pulkkinen@oulu.fi]
"ABSTRACT: The publication of Russell's The Principles of Mathematics
(1903) and Couturat's Les principes des mathematiques (1905) incited
several prominent neo-Kantians to make up their mind about the
logicist program. In this paper, I shall discuss the critiques
presented by the following neo-Kantians: Paul Natorp, Ernst Cassirer
and Jonas Cohn. They argued that Russell's attempt to deduce the
number concept from the class concept is a petitio principii. Russell
replied that the sense in which every object is 'one' must be
distinguished from the sense in which 'one' is a number. I claim that
Russell was wrong in dismissing the neo-Kantian argument as an
elementary logical error. To accept Russell's distinction would be to
accept at least part of Russell's logicist program. The expression 'a
class with one member' would presuppose the number 'one' only if one
simultaneously accepted the analysis which mathematical logic provides
for it (the class u has one member when u is not null and 'x and y are
us' implies 'x and y are identical')."
"My point is that the aforementioned analysis provided by mathematical
logic was something that the neo-Kantians were not ready to accept."

Being lied to so billionaires can wage war for profits
while indebting taxpayers for generations to come, now
that's just a tad bit bigger than not admitting you like
the big moist-moist lips of chunky trollops on your pecker.

Paghat, the Rat Girl

.



User: "nan"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 26 May 2004 05:51:57 PM
Andy Katz <amkatz@earthnospamlink.net> wrote in message news:<jsg4b0luagedm63oburbqe26qsdplslgir@4ax.com>...

On Mon, 24 May 2004 16:47:24 GMT, Steve Sullivan <none@none.com>
wrote:

I bet that if it was jewish terrorists instead of arab terrorists he
would not hold the same view.

Isnt what he advocates against the Geneva convention/


He doesn't hold that view at all, Steve. Someone took a poorly-stated
hypothetical on his part and forged an article.

Andy Katz

Andy suffers uninformed denial and makes seriously reckless
accusations.
***************************************************************
Results 1-15 of about 3857 containing "dershowitz torture" NEXT >>
WEB PAGES - ABOUT
CNN.com - Dershowitz: Torture could be justified - Mar. 3, 2003
Following the capture of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the question has
become whether the senior al Qaeda leader will reveal key information
about the terrorist network. If he doesn't, should he be ... hear that
you think there are right times for torture. Is this one of those
moments? DERSHOWITZ: I don't think so ...
www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/03/03/cnna.Dershowitz
Alan Dershowitz's Tortuous Torturous Argument
.... Much of the reaction to Alan Dershowitz's advocacy has blurred
over a subtle point ... he's been accused of advocating torture itself
( " Dershowitz: Make Torture An Option" reads a ...
www.spectacle.org/0202/seth.html
CBS News | Legal Torture? | September 26, 2002 16:55:08
A preview of the Mike Wallace report. Some argue that some detainees
should be tortured. ( Photo: AP) ( CBS) Is there a place in the U.S.
justice system for torture? ... 60 Minutes report, Dershowitz tells
Correspondent Mike Wallace that torture is inevitable ...
www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/17/60minutes/main324751.shtml
Alan Dershowitz And The Ticking Time-Bomb
.... RENSE.COM. Alan Dershowitz And. The Ticking Time-Bomb ... This
torture thing, Dershowitz told Wolf Blizter the other day, it should
be done "with accountability," it needs to be ...
www.rense.com/general35/tick.htm
The Torturer's Apprentice
.... of Shouting Fire that Dershowitz's "torture warrant" proposal is
merely hypothetical ... assume responsibility [for torture] in
individual cases." Dershowitz is stuck with his "torture ...
www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020513&s=schulz
Want to torture? Get a warrant
.... Want to torture? Get a warrant. Alan M. Dershowitz. Tuesday,
January 22, 2002 ... our unequivocal treaty obligation never to employ
torture, no matter how exigent the circumstances ...
www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/01/22/ED5329.DTL
Salon.com Books | Why terrorism works
.... More significantly, Dershowitz suggests that ... Dershowitz spoke
to Salon from his summer home on Martha's Vineyard about how we reward
terrorism, how we can stop it and why torture ...
www.salon.com/books/int/2002/09/12/dershowitz
Dershowitz: Torture could be justified
The NEWS, in our view, is presented in a public area. If you would
care to comment on the view expressed on these pages you must first
become a "member" of the Group. ... Direct Violence Thread. Violence
News. Dershowitz: Torture could be justified ...
www.moralgroup.com/NewsItems/Vilolence/p13.htm
Bruce Jackson: Queen Dershowitz
America's Best Political Newsletter. ... I've long had an image of
Alan Dershowitz as the legal avatar of the Wicked Queen in Snow ...
Dershowitz has been touting torture as a technique for interrogating
terrorists for ...
www.counterpunch.org/jackson1005.html
ESR | January 28, 2002 | Dershowitz advocates making torture an option
archive > 2002 > this article. Dershowitz advocates making torture an
option. By Jeremy Reynalds. web posted January 28, 2002. Arriving home
Sunday night my wife asked me if I knew who Alan Dershowitz was. ...
gotten his name confused with someone else. Dershowitz as an advocate
for torture? It just didn't seem to be very ...
www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0102/0102dershowitz.htm
Will Youmans: Alan Dershowitz, Professor of Torture
America's Best Political Newsletter. ... The Professor of Torture.
Alan Dershowitz's Mad World ... process after September 11, 2001 for
suggesting that torture should be legally sanctioned and warranted by
the courts ...
www.counterpunch.org/youmans0910.html
Harvard's Alan Dershowitz Promotes Torture
.... Rense.com. Harvard's Alan Dershowitz. Promotes Torture. 9-25-2 ...
I just changed turned off my TV set after feeling sickened by Alan
Dershowitz's comments endorsing torture in America ...
www.rense.com/general29/promt.htm
NewsMax.com: Inside Cover Story
.... Dershowitz Supports Torture. Americans may have to consider truth
serums and torture after the Sept ...
www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2001/11/7/182039
Dershowitz Advocates Making Torture an Option
Jeremy Reynalds is a freelance writer and the founder and director of
Joy Junction, New Mexico's largest emergency homeless shelter. He has
a master's degree in communication from the University ... does a
pro-choice liberal like Dershowitz rationalize advocating torture for
certain cases, such as terrorist acts ...
www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/jreynalds/c_012202_jreynalds_dersh...
boycott-riaa.com - Article: To Alan Dershowitz: Add "Practice Torture
Warrant"
Boycott-RIAA, the center for the fight against the tyrant that is the
Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA). ... To Alan
Dershowitz: Add "Practice Torture Warrant"Posted by on May 16, 2004 at
12:17 PM (printer ... torturing and encouraging torture, then I
believe Dershowitz may have to add ...
www.boycott-riaa.com/article/12107

Being lied to so billionaires can wage war for profits
while indebting taxpayers for generations to come, now
that's just a tad bit bigger than not admitting you like
the big moist-moist lips of chunky trollops on your pecker.

Paghat, the Rat Girl

.



User: "Dave Simpson"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 26 May 2004 06:40:25 PM
Liberals think they're smart, so they advocate "smart" growth, "smart"
torture, etc.. "Smart" war means turning it over to the UN. And so
on.
Note that the extreme Left and even so-called "moderates" on the Left
will be rabid in their rage at Dershowitz for this. (Don't be
surprised if they call him a Nazi advocating Jew-like treatment of the
prisoners we catch.)
Dave Simpson
.
User: "Bo Raxo"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 26 May 2004 07:52:39 PM
"Dave Simpson" <david_l_simpson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:23e7f86e.0405261540.7441765e@posting.google.com...

Liberals think they're smart, so they advocate "smart" growth, "smart"
torture, etc.. "Smart" war means turning it over to the UN. And so
on.

Conservatives place their faith in smart bombs and cluster munitions.
And expect the locals to love the USA for dropping munitions on them. Darn
Iraqi "insurgents", why aren't they grateful?


Note that the extreme Left and even so-called "moderates" on the Left
will be rabid in their rage at Dershowitz for this. (Don't be
surprised if they call him a Nazi advocating Jew-like treatment of the
prisoners we catch.)

No, the Left figured out the article was utter *****, the usual type of
stuff that is seen only on NewsMax, which is basically "Weekly World News"
for Republicans.


Dave Simpson

Why don't you go over to NewsMax and read about Kerry giving birth to an
alien baby that looks just like Elvis.
Bo Raxo
.
User: "nan"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 29 May 2004 08:12:37 AM
"Bo Raxo" <invasions_r_us@thepentagon.removethis.com> wrote in message news:<rZatc.12089$Tn6.4587@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...

"Dave Simpson" <david_l_simpson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:23e7f86e.0405261540.7441765e@posting.google.com...

Liberals think they're smart, so they advocate "smart" growth, "smart"
torture, etc.. "Smart" war means turning it over to the UN. And so
on.


Conservatives place their faith in smart bombs and cluster munitions.

And expect the locals to love the USA for dropping munitions on them. Darn
Iraqi "insurgents", why aren't they grateful?


Note that the extreme Left and even so-called "moderates" on the Left
will be rabid in their rage at Dershowitz for this. (Don't be
surprised if they call him a Nazi advocating Jew-like treatment of the
prisoners we catch.)


No, the Left figured out the article was utter *****, the usual type of
stuff that is seen only on NewsMax, which is basically "Weekly World News"
for Republicans.

Bo wrote: "...the Left figured out the article..." Should Americans
rely soley upon what the Left figures out for us? HARDLY! Reactions
to Left-filtered media's Bloc accounts for more and more new
independent news and editorial sources.
What other TV station does Bo Ratso complain about other than
relatively new FOX which became immediately defamed as "Faux" by
Leftists code? Evidently, rated by Bo's Hate Meter, FOX is the only
alternative to entrenched "liberal"/left tv media for independent and
free thinking Americans, and for the major American faction consisting
of Republicans and/or conservative thinkers.
"a principle familiar to propagandists is that the doctrine to be
instilled in the target audience should not be articulated: that would
only expose them to reflection, inquiry, and, very likely, ridicule.
The proper procedure is to drill them home by constantly presupposing
them, so that they become the very condition for discourse." -- Noam
Chomsky
from Nan


Dave Simpson


Why don't you go over to NewsMax and read about Kerry giving birth to an
alien baby that looks just like Elvis.


Bo Raxo

Baby-brat Bo burps...
.

User: "nan"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 27 May 2004 06:53:44 PM
"Bo Raxo" <invasions_r_us@thepentagon.removethis.com> wrote in message news:<rZatc.12089$Tn6.4587@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...

"Dave Simpson" <david_l_simpson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:23e7f86e.0405261540.7441765e@posting.google.com...

Liberals think they're smart, so they advocate "smart" growth, "smart"
torture, etc.. "Smart" war means turning it over to the UN. And so
on.


Conservatives place their faith in smart bombs and cluster munitions.

And expect the locals to love the USA for dropping munitions on them. Darn
Iraqi "insurgents", why aren't they grateful?


Note that the extreme Left and even so-called "moderates" on the Left
will be rabid in their rage at Dershowitz for this. (Don't be
surprised if they call him a Nazi advocating Jew-like treatment of the
prisoners we catch.)

No, the Left figured out the article was utter *****, the usual type of
stuff that is seen only on NewsMax, which is basically "Weekly World News"
for Republicans.>


Pulling out a ripe Red Herring retort from his handy leftist manual,
Bo writes:

Why don't you go over to NewsMax and read about Kerry giving birth to an
alien baby that looks just like Elvis.


Bo Raxo

Bo advocates only ONE news (left only)source for facts and editorial
opinion, reminding us of:
Information Control
"It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a
psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is
in fact a circle. They are mere words, and words can be molded until
they clothe ideas in disguise." —Joseph Goebbels
from Nan
.
User: "nan"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 29 May 2004 07:19:04 AM
(nan) wrote in message news:<8f49fa86.0405271553.42927a59@posting.google.com>...

"Bo Raxo" <invasions_r_us@thepentagon.removethis.com> wrote in message news:<rZatc.12089$Tn6.4587@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...

"Dave Simpson" <david_l_simpson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:23e7f86e.0405261540.7441765e@posting.google.com...

Liberals think they're smart, so they advocate "smart" growth, "smart"
torture, etc.. "Smart" war means turning it over to the UN. And so
on.


Conservatives place their faith in smart bombs and cluster munitions.

And expect the locals to love the USA for dropping munitions on them. Darn
Iraqi "insurgents", why aren't they grateful?


Note that the extreme Left and even so-called "moderates" on the Left
will be rabid in their rage at Dershowitz for this. (Don't be
surprised if they call him a Nazi advocating Jew-like treatment of the
prisoners we catch.)

No, the Left figured out the article was utter *****, the usual type of
stuff that is seen only on NewsMax, which is basically "Weekly World News"
for Republicans.>

The "Left" figured out???
"Basically" according to Bo Ratso, Republicans as well as Americans
should not have access to alternative news sources representing
diverse interests, varied news coverage, multi-focus reporting and
contrary editoral opinions. Bo expresses himself like a typical
leftist propaganda operative. Bo wrote:
"...the Left figured out..." speaks for itself and for Bo Ratso.
Bo's intolerance bears his egoism and his leftist (nazi
Goebbels-like)ideology.
from Nan


Pulling out a ripe Red Herring retort from his handy leftist manual,
Bo writes:

Why don't you go over to NewsMax and read about Kerry giving birth to an
alien baby that looks just like Elvis.


Bo Raxo


Bo advocates only ONE news (left only)source for facts and editorial
opinion, reminding us of:

Information Control
"It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a
psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is
in fact a circle. They are mere words, and words can be molded until
they clothe ideas in disguise." ?Joseph Goebbels

from Nan

.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 29 May 2004 10:21:07 PM
(nan) wrote:

(nan) wrote in message news:<8f49fa86.0405271553.42927a59@posting.google.com>...

"Bo Raxo" <invasions_r_us@thepentagon.removethis.com> wrote in message news:<rZatc.12089$Tn6.4587@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...

"Dave Simpson" <david_l_simpson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:23e7f86e.0405261540.7441765e@posting.google.com...

Liberals think they're smart, so they advocate "smart" growth, "smart"
torture, etc.. "Smart" war means turning it over to the UN. And so
on.


Conservatives place their faith in smart bombs and cluster munitions.

And expect the locals to love the USA for dropping munitions on them. Darn
Iraqi "insurgents", why aren't they grateful?


Note that the extreme Left and even so-called "moderates" on the Left
will be rabid in their rage at Dershowitz for this. (Don't be
surprised if they call him a Nazi advocating Jew-like treatment of the
prisoners we catch.)

No, the Left figured out the article was utter *****, the usual type of
stuff that is seen only on NewsMax, which is basically "Weekly World News"
for Republicans.>


The "Left" figured out???
"Basically" according to Bo Ratso, Republicans as well as Americans
should not have access to alternative news sources representing
diverse interests, varied news coverage, multi-focus reporting and
contrary editoral opinions.

You can have access to it. No one is calling for censoring the
baloney site. It's just that most intelligent people LAUGH at it.
If I want independent viewpoints on American issues, I can do a lot
worse than reading what the press in other countries have to say.
Google News is your friend.
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.



User: "Dave Simpson"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 30 May 2004 02:15:10 PM
Bo Raxo wrote:

Conservatives place their faith in smart bombs and cluster munitions.

On that ignorant note (or worse) you definitely are disqualified.
Dave Simpson
.

User: "Docky Wocky"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 26 May 2004 08:20:50 PM
bo raxo sez:
"Conservatives place their faith in smart bombs and cluster munitions.
And expect the locals to love the USA for dropping munitions on them. Darn
Iraqi "insurgents", why aren't they grateful?..."
_______________________________________
Such confusion.
We don't expect none of them locals to love the USA for dropping those
munitions on them.
We expect them locals to be dead when we drop those munitions on them.
.



User: "Andy Katz"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 24 May 2004 08:59:51 AM
On 23 May 2004 19:45:39 -0700,
(nan) wrote:

Dershowitz: U.S. Needs Improved Torture Tactics

Gosh, I'm having trouble finding a source for this except as a repost
on Newsmax.
In fact, Dersh hasn't been as clear or as consistent as he might on
the issue, but this particular article appears to be pure forgery.
The part below, along with that business about females interrogating
naked males is over the top:
"As long as we do it in a way that we can be proud and hold our heads
up and say, yes, we did this," he told MSNBC. "But we have to be smart
and we have to have accountability."
Actually kind of funny, though....
Andy Katz
***************************************************************
Being lied to so billionaires can wage war for profits
while indebting taxpayers for generations to come, now
that's just a tad bit bigger than not admitting you like
the big moist-moist lips of chunky trollops on your pecker.
Paghat, the Rat Girl
.
User: "nan"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 26 May 2004 05:46:48 PM
Andy Katz <amkatz@earthnospamlink.net> wrote in message news:<jfv3b01a67466hth1a1asch675id0b0qpa@4ax.com>...

On 23 May 2004 19:45:39 -0700,

(nan) wrote:

Dershowitz: U.S. Needs Improved Torture Tactics


Gosh, I'm having trouble finding a source for this except as a repost
on Newsmax.

In fact, Dersh hasn't been as clear or as consistent as he might on
the issue, but this particular article appears to be pure forgery.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Results 1-15 of about 3857 containing "dershowitz torture" NEXT >>
WEB PAGES - ABOUT
CNN.com - Dershowitz: Torture could be justified - Mar. 3, 2003
Following the capture of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the question has
become whether the senior al Qaeda leader will reveal key information
about the terrorist network. If he doesn't, should he be ... hear that
you think there are right times for torture. Is this one of those
moments? DERSHOWITZ: I don't think so ...
www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/03/03/cnna.Dershowitz
Alan Dershowitz's Tortuous Torturous Argument
.... Much of the reaction to Alan Dershowitz's advocacy has blurred
over a subtle point ... he's been accused of advocating torture itself
( " Dershowitz: Make Torture An Option" reads a ...
www.spectacle.org/0202/seth.html
CBS News | Legal Torture? | September 26, 2002 16:55:08
A preview of the Mike Wallace report. Some argue that some detainees
should be tortured. ( Photo: AP) ( CBS) Is there a place in the U.S.
justice system for torture? ... 60 Minutes report, Dershowitz tells
Correspondent Mike Wallace that torture is inevitable ...
www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/17/60minutes/main324751.shtml
Alan Dershowitz And The Ticking Time-Bomb
.... RENSE.COM. Alan Dershowitz And. The Ticking Time-Bomb ... This
torture thing, Dershowitz told Wolf Blizter the other day, it should
be done "with accountability," it needs to be ...
www.rense.com/general35/tick.htm
The Torturer's Apprentice
.... of Shouting Fire that Dershowitz's "torture warrant" proposal is
merely hypothetical ... assume responsibility [for torture] in
individual cases." Dershowitz is stuck with his "torture ...
www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020513&s=schulz
Want to torture? Get a warrant
.... Want to torture? Get a warrant. Alan M. Dershowitz. Tuesday,
January 22, 2002 ... our unequivocal treaty obligation never to employ
torture, no matter how exigent the circumstances ...
www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/01/22/ED5329.DTL
Salon.com Books | Why terrorism works
.... More significantly, Dershowitz suggests that ... Dershowitz spoke
to Salon from his summer home on Martha's Vineyard about how we reward
terrorism, how we can stop it and why torture ...
www.salon.com/books/int/2002/09/12/dershowitz
Dershowitz: Torture could be justified
The NEWS, in our view, is presented in a public area. If you would
care to comment on the view expressed on these pages you must first
become a "member" of the Group. ... Direct Violence Thread. Violence
News. Dershowitz: Torture could be justified ...
www.moralgroup.com/NewsItems/Vilolence/p13.htm
Bruce Jackson: Queen Dershowitz
America's Best Political Newsletter. ... I've long had an image of
Alan Dershowitz as the legal avatar of the Wicked Queen in Snow ...
Dershowitz has been touting torture as a technique for interrogating
terrorists for ...
www.counterpunch.org/jackson1005.html
ESR | January 28, 2002 | Dershowitz advocates making torture an option
archive > 2002 > this article. Dershowitz advocates making torture an
option. By Jeremy Reynalds. web posted January 28, 2002. Arriving home
Sunday night my wife asked me if I knew who Alan Dershowitz was. ...
gotten his name confused with someone else. Dershowitz as an advocate
for torture? It just didn't seem to be very ...
www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0102/0102dershowitz.htm
Will Youmans: Alan Dershowitz, Professor of Torture
America's Best Political Newsletter. ... The Professor of Torture.
Alan Dershowitz's Mad World ... process after September 11, 2001 for
suggesting that torture should be legally sanctioned and warranted by
the courts ...
www.counterpunch.org/youmans0910.html
Harvard's Alan Dershowitz Promotes Torture
.... Rense.com. Harvard's Alan Dershowitz. Promotes Torture. 9-25-2 ...
I just changed turned off my TV set after feeling sickened by Alan
Dershowitz's comments endorsing torture in America ...
www.rense.com/general29/promt.htm
NewsMax.com: Inside Cover Story
.... Dershowitz Supports Torture. Americans may have to consider truth
serums and torture after the Sept ...
www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2001/11/7/182039
Dershowitz Advocates Making Torture an Option
Jeremy Reynalds is a freelance writer and the founder and director of
Joy Junction, New Mexico's largest emergency homeless shelter. He has
a master's degree in communication from the University ... does a
pro-choice liberal like Dershowitz rationalize advocating torture for
certain cases, such as terrorist acts ...
www.bushcountry.org/news/columnists/jreynalds/c_012202_jreynalds_dersh...
boycott-riaa.com - Article: To Alan Dershowitz: Add "Practice Torture
Warrant"
Boycott-RIAA, the center for the fight against the tyrant that is the
Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA). ... To Alan
Dershowitz: Add "Practice Torture Warrant"Posted by on May 16, 2004 at
12:17 PM (printer ... torturing and encouraging torture, then I
believe Dershowitz may have to add ...
www.boycott-riaa.com/article/12107
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The part below, along with that business about females interrogating
naked males is over the top:

"As long as we do it in a way that we can be proud and hold our heads
up and say, yes, we did this," he told MSNBC. "But we have to be smart
and we have to have accountability."

Actually kind of funny, though....

Andy Katz
***************************************************************
Being lied to so billionaires can wage war for profits
while indebting taxpayers for generations to come, now
that's just a tad bit bigger than not admitting you like
the big moist-moist lips of chunky trollops on your pecker.

Paghat, the Rat Girl

.


User: "Gray Shockley"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 23 May 2004 10:38:13 PM
On Sun, 23 May 2004 21:45:39 -0500, nan wrote
(in article <8f49fa86.0405231845.7683a902@posting.google.com>):

Notable quote from article:

"...that‘s the highest calling of democracy, to defend its civilians
against guilty murderers..." - Dershowitz


Saturday, May 22, 2004 1:17 p.m. EDT
Dershowitz: U.S. Needs Improved Torture Tactics

Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz, who urged that terrorists be
tortured in a Nov. 2001 column he wrote for the Los Angeles Times,
isn't backing away from his position one bit in the wake of the Abu
Ghraib prison scandal.

In fact, the noted civil libertarian said Thursday that the only thing
U.S. did wrong was to use tactics that were amateurish and
ineffective.

--------------------------------------------------------
It appears that Mr Dershowitz would be an excellent person to
help establish love in the hearts of Americans for the North
VietNamese Army and their torture of American prisoners at the
so-called "Hanoi Hilton".
When you start seeing and hearing justifications for torturing
people, realize that these "justifiers" have waved all moral
purpose and possible moral considerations.
The difference between Mr Dershowitz and the regime that tortured
the prisoners at the "Hanoi Hilton"?
That's not rhetorial.
--------------------------------------------------------
Gray Shockley
--------------------------
"Swinehood hath no remedy." - Sidney Lanier

"We should never do what we did at Abu Ghraib, which is turn a bunch
amateurs with no experience on to a bunch of low-level detainees and
tell them essentially, do what you have to do to soften them up,"
Dershowitz told MSNBC's "Scarborough Country."

Instead, torture of high value terror suspects should be authorized by
either the President, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the
Secretary of Defense, he urged.

Asked if he thought Americans were ready to "do what it takes" to get
information from terrorists who threaten American lives, Dershowitz
told host Joe Scarborough, "I think so. But I think Americans want us
to do it smarter, want us to do it better. We could have done it a lot
smarter."

"If we were to limit our rough interrogation methods to the most
important, high-value detainees," he said, the critics would be few.
"Nobody is complaining about what we have done to [9/11 mastermind]
Shaikh Khalid Mohammed," he noted.

The acceptance of torture in the Khalid Mohammed case, said
Dershowitz, shows that "Americans are prepared to go to extraordinary
lengths to save American lives and the lives of many others, as long
as we do it smart, and we do it with accountability."

And he challenged the claims by some pundits who say torture almost
never works because the subject will inevitably say anything to
alleviate the pain.

"We had a case in the Philippines where [local police] tortured
somebody and revealed a plot to knock down 11 or 12 commercial
airliners flying over the Pacific and a plot to kill the pope," he
noted.

And Dershowitz even defended sexual humiliation as a good way to press
Muslim detainees for critical information.

"It‘s a good thing to use women interrogators on radical Muslim
extremists," he told MSNBC. "I think it‘s a good thing to make them be
stripped naked. I think these are legitimate forms of interrogation in
cases where we have high-level prisoners who can provide high-level
information."

The top legal thinker recommended that the U.S. should unabashedly
tell the world that torturing high value terrorist suspects is
justified "because of the war that has been thrust upon us."

"As long as we do it in a way that we can be proud and hold our heads
up and say, yes, we did this," he told MSNBC. "But we have to be smart
and we have to have accountability."

The world's terrorists, he said, have "put us in a position where have
to defend our civilians. And that‘s the highest calling of democracy,
to defend its civilians against guilty murderers that are out there
trying to kill our grandchildren and kill our children."



.
User: "El Senor"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 24 May 2004 06:52:07 AM
"Gray Shockley" <gray-87a@cybercoffee.org> wrote:

The difference between Mr Dershowitz and the regime that tortured
the prisoners at the "Hanoi Hilton"?

Same as the difference between a jail warden and a kidnapper.
The warden puts people in jail only when it is deemed necessary for the
safety of society. He operates under the watchful eye of public scrutiny and
is accountable for his actions. The kidnapper grabs whoever he likes
whenever he feels like it and holds his victim in secret.

That's not rhetorical.

Nope, just stupid.
-Mike
.
User: "Gray Shockley"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 24 May 2004 11:09:17 AM
On Mon, 24 May 2004 06:52:07 -0500, El Senor wrote
(in article <Hllsc.13043$4%3.6022@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>):

"Gray Shockley" <gray-87a@cybercoffee.org> wrote:

The difference between Mr Dershowitz and the regime that tortured
the prisoners at the "Hanoi Hilton"?


Same as the difference between a jail warden and a kidnapper.

The warden puts people in jail only when it is deemed necessary for the
safety of society. He operates under the watchful eye of public scrutiny and
is accountable for his actions. The kidnapper grabs whoever he likes
whenever he feels like it and holds his victim in secret.

Ah, Gitmo.

That's not rhetorical.


Nope, just stupid.

-Mike



.


User: "Figaro"

Title: Re: Dershowitz Urges "Smart" Torture Tactics On Terrorists 23 May 2004 11:48:12 PM
On Sun, 23 May 2004 22:38:13 -0500, Gray Shockley <gray-87a@cybercoffee.org>
wrote:

It appears that Mr Dershowitz would be an excellent person to
help establish love in the hearts of Americans for the North
VietNamese Army and their torture of American prisoners at the
so-called "Hanoi Hilton".


When you start seeing and hearing justifications for torturing
people, realize that these "justifiers" have waved all moral
purpose and possible moral considerations.


The difference between Mr Dershowitz and the regime that tortured
the prisoners at the "Hanoi Hilton"?


That's not rhetorial.
--------------------------------------------------------

Dershowitz--ardent Zionist that he is--knows that if torture is legitimized, the
onus will be taken off Israel for running amok with it's own programs of torture
and assassination. By making us accomplices with Israel, Dershowitz and his
fellow "Israel First Above All" Americans hope to defuse any criticism of
Israeli tactics. Moral considerations need not apply.
Figaro
.



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