Sociology > Education > Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation?
| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
23 Oct 2005 04:56:52 AM |
| Object: |
Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
http://www.bloggingbaby.com/entry/1234000227064439/
Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state
separation?
Posted Oct 21, 2005, 10:01 AM ET by Jay Allen
Related entries: Lifestyle, Media
bankhead church
I was perusing an article about homeschooling in Tennessee, when a
funny thing struck me. In Tennessee, you have several options if you
want to homeschool: (a) register with the local school district; (b)
register with a church school; or (c) operate as a satellite of a
church school. Which raises an interesting question: does the ability
to register via a church represent a violation of the separation of
church and state? I imagine there's a legalistic reason why this isn't
the case; the ability to register through the local school district
probably acts as a "safety valve" for secular homeschoolers. But if
you look at the requirements placed on public school homeschoolers
versus religious homeschoolers, it's obvious that religious
homeschoolers operate in something of a sanctuary. Public school
homeschoolers must conform to attendance and subject requirements,
plus maintain a series of records regarding their child's education;
parents acting as satellites as a church need not meet any of these
demands. Why isn't this special treatment considered a violation?
Besides, these raise an even stickier question. What constitutes a
"church"? Can I found "The Church of Jay", and take a bevy of
homeschoolers under my wing?
*****************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
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| User: "fred" |
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| Title: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
23 Oct 2005 01:39:24 PM |
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wrote:
http://www.bloggingbaby.com/entry/1234000227064439/
Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state
separation?
Posted Oct 21, 2005, 10:01 AM ET by Jay Allen
Related entries: Lifestyle, Media
bankhead church
I was perusing an article about homeschooling in Tennessee, when a
funny thing struck me. In Tennessee, you have several options if you
want to homeschool: (a) register with the local school district; (b)
register with a church school; or (c) operate as a satellite of a
church school. Which raises an interesting question: does the ability
to register via a church represent a violation of the separation of
church and state?
What's this "separation of church and state" garbage?
These words are merely a dishonest generalization about the
Constitution because they don't even appear in the Constitution. But
I'm going to give you words that do appear in the Constitution. Given
the 1st Amendment explicitly prohibits only Congress from making laws
that deal with religion, the 10th Amendment automatically reserved the
power to legislate religion to the states:
"Article 10: The powers not delegated to the United States by the
Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the
States respectively, or to the people."
Anti-religious expression factions continue to deny that it's not the
Supreme Court's lie about the establishment clause that protects them
from bully pulpit preachers. It's section 1 of the 14th Amendment that
prohibits state governments from using their power to legislate
religious laws which abridge the federal rights of US citizens:
"Article 14, section 1: All persons born or naturalized in the United
States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the
United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make
or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of
citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person
of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to
any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
I imagine there's a legalistic reason why this isn't
the case; the ability to register through the local school district
probably acts as a "safety valve" for secular homeschoolers. But if
you look at the requirements placed on public school homeschoolers
versus religious homeschoolers, it's obvious that religious
homeschoolers operate in something of a sanctuary. Public school
homeschoolers must conform to attendance and subject requirements,
plus maintain a series of records regarding their child's education;
parents acting as satellites as a church need not meet any of these
demands. Why isn't this special treatment considered a violation?
Besides, these raise an even stickier question. What constitutes a
"church"? Can I found "The Church of Jay", and take a bevy of
homeschoolers under my wing?
*****************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS =B7 Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why =
"a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisne=
r,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
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| User: "Colin Day" |
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| Title: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/stateseparation? |
23 Oct 2005 11:49:22 AM |
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wrote:
http://www.bloggingbaby.com/entry/1234000227064439/
Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state
separation?
Posted Oct 21, 2005, 10:01 AM ET by Jay Allen
Related entries: Lifestyle, Media
bankhead church
I was perusing an article about homeschooling in Tennessee, when a
funny thing struck me. In Tennessee, you have several options if you
want to homeschool: (a) register with the local school district; (b)
register with a church school; or (c) operate as a satellite of a
church school. Which raises an interesting question: does the ability
to register via a church represent a violation of the separation of
church and state? I imagine there's a legalistic reason why this isn't
the case; the ability to register through the local school district
probably acts as a "safety valve" for secular homeschoolers. But if
you look at the requirements placed on public school homeschoolers
versus religious homeschoolers, it's obvious that religious
homeschoolers operate in something of a sanctuary. Public school
homeschoolers must conform to attendance and subject requirements,
plus maintain a series of records regarding their child's education;
parents acting as satellites as a church need not meet any of these
demands. Why isn't this special treatment considered a violation?
Besides, these raise an even stickier question. What constitutes a
"church"? Can I found "The Church of Jay", and take a bevy of
homeschoolers under my wing?
There's always the Universal Life Church.
Colin Day aa #1500
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| User: "VRWC5" |
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| Title: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
23 Oct 2005 02:09:16 PM |
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On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 05:56:52 -0400, wrote:
http://www.bloggingbaby.com/entry/1234000227064439/
Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state
separation?
Posted Oct 21, 2005, 10:01 AM ET by Jay Allen
Related entries: Lifestyle, Media
bankhead church
I was perusing an article about homeschooling in Tennessee, when a
funny thing struck me. In Tennessee, you have several options if you
want to homeschool: (a) register with the local school district; (b)
register with a church school; or (c) operate as a satellite of a
church school.
There is a fourth option: You can tell the State to shove it and
ignore their idiotic "requirements" to register ANYTHING. Just DO IT!
Which raises an interesting question: does the ability
to register via a church represent a violation of the separation of
church and state?
Is there anyone who matters who also gives a *****?
I imagine there's a legalistic reason why this isn't
the case; the ability to register through the local school district
probably acts as a "safety valve" for secular homeschoolers. But if
you look at the requirements placed on public school homeschoolers
versus religious homeschoolers, it's obvious that religious
homeschoolers operate in something of a sanctuary. Public school
homeschoolers must conform to attendance and subject requirements,
plus maintain a series of records regarding their child's education;
parents acting as satellites as a church need not meet any of these
demands. Why isn't this special treatment considered a violation?
Again, who gives a *****? What is your motive in even asking such an
idiotic question?
Besides, these raise an even stickier question. What constitutes a
"church"? Can I found "The Church of Jay", and take a bevy of
homeschoolers under my wing?
*****************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
23 Oct 2005 04:10:33 PM |
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VRWC5 <nospam@none.com> wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 05:56:52 -0400, wrote:
I was perusing an article about homeschooling in Tennessee, when a
funny thing struck me. In Tennessee, you have several options if you
want to homeschool: (a) register with the local school district; (b)
register with a church school; or (c) operate as a satellite of a
church school.
There is a fourth option: You can tell the State to shove it and
ignore their idiotic "requirements" to register ANYTHING. Just DO IT!
You can also go to jail for violating truancy laws, and have your kids
taken away from you ny the state.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "VRWC5" |
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| Title: Re: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
23 Oct 2005 09:22:17 PM |
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On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:10:33 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
<lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
VRWC5 <nospam@none.com> wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 05:56:52 -0400, wrote:
I was perusing an article about homeschooling in Tennessee, when a
funny thing struck me. In Tennessee, you have several options if you
want to homeschool: (a) register with the local school district; (b)
register with a church school; or (c) operate as a satellite of a
church school.
There is a fourth option: You can tell the State to shove it and
ignore their idiotic "requirements" to register ANYTHING. Just DO IT!
You can also go to jail for violating truancy laws, and have your kids
taken away from you ny the state.
Not if they can pass standardized tests. In the twisted moral
wreckage that America has become under the satanic spell of
liberalism, there is ONE moral code that's still on the gold standard
-- competence. Most home-schooled kids do EXTREMELY well on
standardized tests. There are hundreds of thousands of them in
America thanks to the home-schooling industry becoming almost a
billion dollar affair over the last thirty years.
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
24 Oct 2005 03:24:55 AM |
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VRWC5 <nospam@none.com> wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:10:33 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
< > wrote:
VRWC5 <nospam@none.com> wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 05:56:52 -0400, wrote:
I was perusing an article about homeschooling in Tennessee, when a
funny thing struck me. In Tennessee, you have several options if you
want to homeschool: (a) register with the local school district; (b)
register with a church school; or (c) operate as a satellite of a
church school.
There is a fourth option: You can tell the State to shove it and
ignore their idiotic "requirements" to register ANYTHING. Just DO IT!
You can also go to jail for violating truancy laws, and have your kids
taken away from you ny the state.
Not if they can pass standardized tests.
Only in some states is that an option, and if it is, then taking those
tests is not "ignoring their idiotic "requirements" to register
ANYTHING".
In the twisted moral
wreckage that America has become under the satanic spell of
liberalism, there is ONE moral code that's still on the gold standard
-- competence. Most home-schooled kids do EXTREMELY well on
standardized tests.
Most don't take standardized tests. The ones who do poorly seldom
continue being homeschooled.
There are hundreds of thousands of them in
America thanks to the home-schooling industry becoming almost a
billion dollar affair over the last thirty years.
I guess it's all a big money-making scheme, then. Hint: you've just
claimed that it costs more than a thousand dollars on average to
homeschool a kid. Hardly a bargain.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "VRWC5" |
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| Title: Re: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
24 Oct 2005 01:11:58 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:24:55 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
<lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
VRWC5 <nospam@none.com> wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:10:33 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
<lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
VRWC5 <nospam@none.com> wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 05:56:52 -0400, wrote:
I was perusing an article about homeschooling in Tennessee, when a
funny thing struck me. In Tennessee, you have several options if you
want to homeschool: (a) register with the local school district; (b)
register with a church school; or (c) operate as a satellite of a
church school.
There is a fourth option: You can tell the State to shove it and
ignore their idiotic "requirements" to register ANYTHING. Just DO IT!
You can also go to jail for violating truancy laws, and have your kids
taken away from you ny the state.
Not if they can pass standardized tests.
Only in some states is that an option, and if it is, then taking those
tests is not "ignoring their idiotic "requirements" to register
ANYTHING".
In the twisted moral
wreckage that America has become under the satanic spell of
liberalism, there is ONE moral code that's still on the gold standard
-- competence. Most home-schooled kids do EXTREMELY well on
standardized tests.
Most don't take standardized tests.
False. In most cases, that's the ONLY state mandated requirement with
which they WANT to comply. SOME even go so far as to seek out higher
quality achievement tests and have their kids pass those as well.
The ones who do poorly seldom continue being homeschooled.
Sometimes. So what? Public school rarely improves their situation,
so, in the case of the TINY minority of home schooled kids who
struggle, the ONLY rational option is to continue with the home
schooling and work on their academic skills, getting private third
party assistance if needed (of which there is plenty) -- which is
STILL a more rational option to having them exposed to the toxic
environment of the NEA/ACLU poisoned public school system.
There are hundreds of thousands of them in
America thanks to the home-schooling industry becoming almost a
billion dollar affair over the last thirty years.
I guess it's all a big money-making scheme, then.
Oh my God! GASP! The providers of competent home school curriculums
actually charge MONEY for their services and products. How utterly
evil! Sort of like the NEA and the tens of thousands of unaccountable
public schools. In any case, the home schooling industry is a
rational FREE MARKET response to a dire need -- the need to get one's
kids educated properly in a safe, loving, academically challenging
environment -- one that is NOT drenched in political correctness and
social engineering by moronic ideologues who could not engineer their
way out of an empty parking lot.
Hint: you've just claimed that it costs more than a thousand dollars on average to
homeschool a kid. Hardly a bargain.
Compared to what -- the 7- 12 thousand $/year it costs taxpayers to
produce kids who can STILL barely read when they graduate? Most
parents who actually home school their kids, are absolutely committed
to giving their kids the best possible advantage in life. Most of
them work very hard to provide such advantages. How is that different
from parents who can afford to send their kids to high-quality private
schools and STILL pay the state extortion in the form of school taxes
even though their kids place no burden whatsoever on the public school
system? The parents of home schooled kids are ALSO still required (at
what amounts to gunpoint) to pay their school taxes. It's an epic
moral outrage.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
24 Oct 2005 06:05:38 PM |
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VRWC5 <nospam@none.com> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:24:55 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
< > wrote:
Only in some states is that an option, and if it is, then taking those
tests is not "ignoring their idiotic "requirements" to register
ANYTHING".
In the twisted moral
wreckage that America has become under the satanic spell of
liberalism, there is ONE moral code that's still on the gold standard
-- competence. Most home-schooled kids do EXTREMELY well on
standardized tests.
Most don't take standardized tests.
False.
I await your data. I submit as counterevidence the Rudner report,
highly touted by homeschoolers.
http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/rudner1999/FullText.asp
If one looks at the data in Table 2.2, where fewer than 10% of the
numbers of 9 years are taking the test at age 17, then either 90% of
the 17 year olds have dropped out of homeschooling, or 90% of them
aren't taking standardized tests. The falloff in homeschoolers taking
standardized tests seems to start even before the end of the primary
grades.
The ones who do poorly seldom continue being homeschooled.
Sometimes. So what?
If those who fail at homeschooling aren't taking the tests and thus
aren't counted in the statistics, then of course the statistics will
show the ones taking the tests to be more successful than average.
Public school rarely improves their situation,
so, in the case of the TINY minority of home schooled kids who
struggle,
The Rudner report indicates that the vast majority of homeschoolers
either return to the public schools or eschew standardized testing as
they get older.
I have no problem with the tiny percentage that completes their entire
education homeschooling, and does it successfully according to some
sort of external standard of quality, but I've seen no evidence that
it is more than a tiny percentage that actually does so. Anecdotal
reports almost always describe the ones who return to the public
schools as having academic problems and often social problems as well.
There are hundreds of thousands of them in
America thanks to the home-schooling industry becoming almost a
billion dollar affair over the last thirty years.
I guess it's all a big money-making scheme, then.
Oh my God! GASP! The providers of competent home school curriculums
actually charge MONEY for their services and products. How utterly
evil!
I don't think so, but perhaps you do? Why tout the number of dollars
spent by homeschoolers, unless you want to portray it as a big
business?
Hint: you've just claimed that it costs more than a thousand dollars on average to
homeschool a kid. Hardly a bargain.
Compared to what -- the 7- 12 thousand $/year it costs taxpayers to
produce kids who can STILL barely read when they graduate?
Compared to what it costs the parents to have their kids educated in
the public schools, which is $0.00 for many. Parents don't pay any
less taxes if they homeschool, so this is an extra thousand dollars or
more. For some parents that is a lot of money (which may be why the
Rudner report notes that more than half of all homeschoolers in 1997
were in households making more than $50K per year).
The parents of home schooled kids are ALSO still required (at
what amounts to gunpoint) to pay their school taxes. It's an epic
moral outrage.
Anyone who invokes the "gunpoint" metaphor identifies themselves as a
hopelessly extremist libertarian, whose ideas are not to be taken
seriously by the vast majority who are more moderate than they are.
Ideologues of the left, right, or weird, are all likely to
indoctrinate their kids far more than the "poisonous" public schools
will.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
24 Oct 2005 04:03:02 PM |
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VRWC5 wrote:
Compared to what -- the 7- 12 thousand $/year it costs taxpayers to
produce kids who can STILL barely read when they graduate?
You're lying two ways. As usual.
Isn't it funny how these home-school people are
also the ones who want to teach intelligent design,
abstinence-only, supply-side economics, and other
***** curricula in the schools? They cnan't
satisfy themselves with feeding this ***** to their
own kids, so they feed it to ours.
.
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| User: "Grace Haliburton" |
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| Title: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
24 Oct 2005 06:01:21 PM |
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wrote:
VRWC5 wrote:
Compared to what -- the 7- 12 thousand $/year it costs taxpayers to
produce kids who can STILL barely read when they graduate?
You're lying two ways. As usual.
Isn't it funny how these home-school people are
also the ones who want to teach intelligent design,
abstinence-only, supply-side economics, and other
***** curricula in the schools? They cnan't
satisfy themselves with feeding this ***** to their
own kids, so they feed it to ours.
I may not agree with his motives, but I agree with his assessment of
current American public schooling. It wasn't until I talked in-depth
with my husband (a graduate of a fairly average public so-called
school) about his education that I realized the sad state of education
in this country. I never realized how unusual mine really was.
Homeschooling certainly isn't my favourite option. I want my kids to
grow up with other normal kids. But if I had the choice between letting
a bad public school miseducate them, indocrinate them with them poorly
disguised religious propaganda, and teach them to hate education and
intelligence; letting a religious private school do the same without
disguising the religious propaganda; or homeschooling...I'd probably
pick homeschooling.
-Grace
"Never trust anything that thinks for itself if you can't see where it
keeps its brain." -J.K. Rowling
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
25 Oct 2005 03:21:37 PM |
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Grace Haliburton wrote:
Compared to what -- the 7- 12 thousand $/year it costs taxpayers to
produce kids who can STILL barely read when they graduate?
You're lying two ways. As usual.
Isn't it funny how these home-school people are
also the ones who want to teach intelligent design,
abstinence-only, supply-side economics, and other
***** curricula in the schools? They cnan't
satisfy themselves with feeding this ***** to their
own kids, so they feed it to ours.
I may not agree with his motives, but I agree with his assessment of
current American public schooling. It wasn't until I talked in-depth
with my husband (a graduate of a fairly average public so-called
school) about his education that I realized the sad state of education
in this country. I never realized how unusual mine really was.
It's not QUITE as bad as the right-wingers make it
out. And it's certainly not privatization which
helps.
Homeschooling certainly isn't my favourite option. I want my kids to
grow up with other normal kids. But if I had the choice between letting
a bad public school miseducate them, indocrinate them with them poorly
disguised religious propaganda, and teach them to hate education and
intelligence; letting a religious private school do the same without
disguising the religious propaganda; or homeschooling...I'd probably
pick homeschooling.
Private schools are the worst. I grew up on a
reservation, and let me tell you, the phrase 'child
abuse' comes to mind to describe boarding schools.
Of both the physical and sexual varieties.
.
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| User: "VRWC5" |
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| Title: Re: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
24 Oct 2005 12:44:31 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:24:55 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
<lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
VRWC5 <nospam@none.com> wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:10:33 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
<lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
VRWC5 <nospam@none.com> wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 05:56:52 -0400, wrote:
I was perusing an article about homeschooling in Tennessee, when a
funny thing struck me. In Tennessee, you have several options if you
want to homeschool: (a) register with the local school district; (b)
register with a church school; or (c) operate as a satellite of a
church school.
There is a fourth option: You can tell the State to shove it and
ignore their idiotic "requirements" to register ANYTHING. Just DO IT!
You can also go to jail for violating truancy laws, and have your kids
taken away from you ny the state.
Not if they can pass standardized tests.
Only in some states is that an option, and if it is, then taking those
tests is not "ignoring their idiotic "requirements" to register
ANYTHING".
True, except that they take those test ANYWAY. The parents of home
schoolers WANT them to take the tests. Thus, taking the tests is NOT
an example to telling the state to shove it. I PERSONALLY know 16
families, with a total of 39 kids, in five different states. ALL of
these parents simply ignored the state truancy laws, commenced a
competent home schooling curriculum (mostly managed on-line) and their
kids are doing great on all the tests they have taken thus far. Since
these kids were never registered into the public school system, the
state has no idea they even exist until they go to take the tests.
Thus, the truancy laws are simply irrelevant.
In the twisted moral
wreckage that America has become under the satanic spell of
liberalism, there is ONE moral code that's still on the gold standard
-- competence. Most home-schooled kids do EXTREMELY well on
standardized tests.
Most don't take standardized tests. The ones who do poorly seldom
continue being homeschooled.
There are hundreds of thousands of them in
America thanks to the home-schooling industry becoming almost a
billion dollar affair over the last thirty years.
I guess it's all a big money-making scheme, then. Hint: you've just
claimed that it costs more than a thousand dollars on average to
homeschool a kid. Hardly a bargain.
lojbab
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
24 Oct 2005 05:38:29 PM |
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VRWC5 <nospam@none.com> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:24:55 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
< > wrote:
VRWC5 <nospam@none.com> wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:10:33 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
< > wrote:
VRWC5 <nospam@none.com> wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 05:56:52 -0400, wrote:
I was perusing an article about homeschooling in Tennessee, when a
funny thing struck me. In Tennessee, you have several options if you
want to homeschool: (a) register with the local school district; (b)
register with a church school; or (c) operate as a satellite of a
church school.
There is a fourth option: You can tell the State to shove it and
ignore their idiotic "requirements" to register ANYTHING. Just DO IT!
You can also go to jail for violating truancy laws, and have your kids
taken away from you ny the state.
Not if they can pass standardized tests.
Only in some states is that an option, and if it is, then taking those
tests is not "ignoring their idiotic "requirements" to register
ANYTHING".
True, except that they take those test ANYWAY.
Your evidence is lacking. Have you any data for the number of
homeschooler who take standardized tests in states that do not require
them?
The parents of home schoolers WANT them to take the tests.
Your evidence is lacking. Here is some counterevidence:
http://www.nhen.org/newhser/default.asp?id=291
http://www.ohen.org/hb2733schertzessay.html
Thus, taking the tests is NOT
an example to telling the state to shove it. I PERSONALLY know 16
families, with a total of 39 kids, in five different states. ALL of
these parents simply ignored the state truancy laws, commenced a
competent home schooling curriculum (mostly managed on-line) and their
kids are doing great on all the tests they have taken thus far. Since
these kids were never registered into the public school system, the
state has no idea they even exist until they go to take the tests.
Thus, the truancy laws are simply irrelevant.
Rather risky behavior, IMHO. Some states actually enforce them.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "VRWC5" |
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| Title: Re: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
24 Oct 2005 11:48:00 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:38:29 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
<lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
VRWC5 <nospam@none.com> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:24:55 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
<lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
VRWC5 <nospam@none.com> wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:10:33 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
<lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
VRWC5 <nospam@none.com> wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 05:56:52 -0400, wrote:
I was perusing an article about homeschooling in Tennessee, when a
funny thing struck me. In Tennessee, you have several options if you
want to homeschool: (a) register with the local school district; (b)
register with a church school; or (c) operate as a satellite of a
church school.
There is a fourth option: You can tell the State to shove it and
ignore their idiotic "requirements" to register ANYTHING. Just DO IT!
You can also go to jail for violating truancy laws, and have your kids
taken away from you ny the state.
Not if they can pass standardized tests.
Only in some states is that an option, and if it is, then taking those
tests is not "ignoring their idiotic "requirements" to register
ANYTHING".
True, except that they take those test ANYWAY.
Your evidence is lacking. Have you any data for the number of
homeschooler who take standardized tests in states that do not require
them?
Yes. I have personal experience with the families I know and the many
more home schooling families THEY know. Of course I could not care
less if you believe me because I doubt if you would regardless of any
evidence I presented. In any case, it does nothing for me either way
to have your belief. I'm not writing this for you.
But just for fun, why do you care? What's your agenda?
The parents of home schoolers WANT them to take the tests.
Your evidence is lacking. Here is some counterevidence:
http://www.nhen.org/newhser/default.asp?id=291
http://www.ohen.org/hb2733schertzessay.html
I've already seen this. So what? The home schooling network is not
monolithic. In any case, the standardized tests that matter most to
home schoolers is the only ones that matter -- college entrance exams.
Home-schoolers are free to use any tests they want -- as well they
should be. Most home schoolers want their kids to do well on the SAT
and other college level exams so they can get into the colleges they
want. I know over twenty home schooled kids below grade 7 who have
ALREADY passed the SAT with a score above 1200.
Thus, taking the tests is NOT
an example to telling the state to shove it. I PERSONALLY know 16
families, with a total of 39 kids, in five different states. ALL of
these parents simply ignored the state truancy laws, commenced a
competent home schooling curriculum (mostly managed on-line) and their
kids are doing great on all the tests they have taken thus far. Since
these kids were never registered into the public school system, the
state has no idea they even exist until they go to take the tests.
Thus, the truancy laws are simply irrelevant.
Rather risky behavior, IMHO. Some states actually enforce them.
When compared to getting our kids properly educated, it's a tiny risk.
Bottom line -- the state has no need, duty or moral authority to have
ANYTHING to say about how we educate our kids as long as they can pass
the tests.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
25 Oct 2005 04:36:13 AM |
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VRWC5 <nospam@none.com> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:38:29 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
< > wrote:
Your evidence is lacking. Have you any data for the number of
homeschooler who take standardized tests in states that do not require
them?
Yes. I have personal experience with the families I know and the many
more home schooling families THEY know. Of course I could not care
less if you believe me because I doubt if you would regardless of any
evidence I presented. In any case, it does nothing for me either way
to have your belief. I'm not writing this for you.
But just for fun, why do you care? What's your agenda?
Why do you assume that everyone who posts on Usenet has "an agenda".
I don't. I read postings by others, especially ideologues, and
challenge their allegations that seem unsupported by real data. I'm
neither pro-home schooling nor anti, though I am skeptical of any
claims that it benefits anyone except parental egos. I am especially
anti-libertarian, because they are the most religiously dogmatic of
ideologues, thinking that their opinions are a Sacred Truth.
The parents of home schoolers WANT them to take the tests.
Your evidence is lacking. Here is some counterevidence:
http://www.nhen.org/newhser/default.asp?id=291
http://www.ohen.org/hb2733schertzessay.html
I've already seen this. So what? The home schooling network is not
monolithic.
You made a generalization. If your generalizations about what parents
of home schoolers "WANT" isn't true, then don't claim it. If you had
said that "Some parents of home schoolers don't mind then taking the
test", I would have no reason to challenge that statement. Instead
you chose an emphatic generalization.
In any case, the standardized tests that matter most to
home schoolers is the only ones that matter -- college entrance exams.
But of course those are not the ones that the states require, so the
claim "The parents of home schoolers WANT them to take the tests."
cannot be about college entrance exams. Furthermore, since the
evidence is lacking that most homeschoolers continue homeschooling
until the age when they take college entrance exams, such a claim is
at best about a tiny minority of homeschoolers.
Home-schoolers are free to use any tests they want -- as well they
should be.
That depends on the state.
Most home schoolers want their kids to do well on the SAT
and other college level exams so they can get into the colleges they
want. I know over twenty home schooled kids below grade 7 who have
ALREADY passed the SAT with a score above 1200.
One does not "pass" the SAT. It doesn't have a passing grade.
Rather risky behavior, IMHO. Some states actually enforce them.
When compared to getting our kids properly educated, it's a tiny risk.
Bottom line -- the state has no need, duty or moral authority to have
ANYTHING to say about how we educate our kids as long as they can pass
the tests.
Of course it does. You don't own your kids any more than the state
does. So if you can claim such need, duty and/or authority, then so
can the state.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
24 Oct 2005 03:23:36 PM |
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VRWC5 wrote:
You can also go to jail for violating truancy laws, and have your kids
taken away from you ny the state.
Not if they can pass standardized tests. In the twisted moral
wreckage that America has become under the satanic spell of
liberalism, there is ONE moral code that's still on the gold standard
-- competence. Most home-schooled kids do EXTREMELY well on
standardized tests. There are hundreds of thousands of them in
America thanks to the home-schooling industry becoming almost a
billion dollar affair over the last thirty years.
Which is just wonderful. Under Bush every kid will pass
a test. They won't be able to do jack ***** other than
pass a test, but they pass tests with the best of them.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
24 Oct 2005 06:07:53 PM |
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wrote:
VRWC5 wrote:
You can also go to jail for violating truancy laws, and have your kids
taken away from you ny the state.
Not if they can pass standardized tests. In the twisted moral
wreckage that America has become under the satanic spell of
liberalism, there is ONE moral code that's still on the gold standard
-- competence. Most home-schooled kids do EXTREMELY well on
standardized tests. There are hundreds of thousands of them in
America thanks to the home-schooling industry becoming almost a
billion dollar affair over the last thirty years.
Which is just wonderful. Under Bush every kid will pass
a test.
No. Those who send their kids to private schools (and those who
homeschool in states that don't require homeschoolers to test) don't
have to pass any tests.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
25 Oct 2005 03:22:05 PM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
No. Those who send their kids to private schools (and those who
homeschool in states that don't require homeschoolers to test) don't
have to pass any tests.
Naturally.
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| User: "Harry Hope" |
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| Title: PROOF THAT LIBERALS HATE AMERICA ==> Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state separation? |
23 Oct 2005 06:05:43 AM |
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On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 05:56:52 -0400, wrote:
http://www.bloggingbaby.com/entry/1234000227064439/
Do homeschooling guidelines in some states violate church/state
separation?
Posted Oct 21, 2005, 10:01 AM ET by Jay Allen
Related entries: Lifestyle, Media
bankhead church
I was perusing an article about homeschooling in Tennessee, when a
funny thing struck me. In Tennessee, you have several options if you
want to homeschool: (a) register with the local school district; (b)
register with a church school; or (c) operate as a satellite of a
church school. Which raises an interesting question: does the ability
to register via a church represent a violation of the separation of
church and state? I imagine there's a legalistic reason why this isn't
the case; the ability to register through the local school district
probably acts as a "safety valve" for secular homeschoolers. But if
you look at the requirements placed on public school homeschoolers
versus religious homeschoolers, it's obvious that religious
homeschoolers operate in something of a sanctuary. Public school
homeschoolers must conform to attendance and subject requirements,
plus maintain a series of records regarding their child's education;
parents acting as satellites as a church need not meet any of these
demands. Why isn't this special treatment considered a violation?
Besides, these raise an even stickier question. What constitutes a
"church"? Can I found "The Church of Jay", and take a bevy of
homeschoolers under my wing?
*****************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
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