Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention

Sociology > Education > Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention

LINK TO THIS PAGE

rating : 0 | 0

Page 1 of 1

Topic:	Sociology > Education
User:	""
Date:	14 Apr 2006 06:37:34 AM
Object:	Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention

Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention
http://www.washblade.com/2006/4-12/news/localnews/request.cfm
Washington Blade - Washington,DC,USA
.... The grant is contingent on the attorney general’s opinion on whether
the donation violates rules regarding separation of church and state. ...
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.

User: "fred"
Title: Re: Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention; likely the kind of tyranny that Jefferson warned against	14 Apr 2006 06:53:04 PM

wrote:

Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention
http://www.washblade.com/2006/4-12/news/localnews/request.cfm
Washington Blade - Washington,DC,USA
... The grant is contingent on the attorney general's opinion on whether
the donation violates rules regarding separation of church and state. ...

The above grant seems to be an example of what I've been complaining
about with respect to state taxes. State lawmakers have never gotten
their acts together with respect to making laws that respect all
religious perspectives. I don't know the details of the above
mentioned grant. But given the $150,000 targeted for the Baptist
convention includes money collected from unwilling secular taxpayers,
then the people who are negotiating the grant are ultimately abusing
the 14th Amendment protected personal federal rights of these secular
taxpayers in my opinion. Jefferson put it this way:
"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation
of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."
--Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545
I will also note that it is just as tyrannical for tax money that is
presently being collected from unwilling religious factions to be used
to pay for evolution classes, for example, in public schools. State
lawmakers are going to have to wise up and find ways to smartly manage
"sensitive" taxes.

page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisne=

256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************

User: ""
Title: Re: Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention; likely the kind of tyranny that Jefferson warned against	15 Apr 2006 10:13:29 AM

On 14 Apr 2006 16:53:04 -0700, "fred"
<clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't know the details of the above
mentioned grant. But given the $150,000 targeted for the Baptist
convention includes money collected from unwilling secular taxpayers,
then the people who are negotiating the grant are ultimately abusing
the 14th Amendment protected personal federal rights of these secular
taxpayers in my opinion.

Not knowing "details" never seemed to bother you
before, Freddie
Besides, GOVERNMENT cannot promote religion on ANY
level.
.

User: "Gray Shockley"
Title: Re: Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention; likely the kind of tyranny that Jefferson warned against	14 Apr 2006 08:30:18 PM

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 18:53:04 -0500, fred wrote
(in article <1145058784.330206.147160@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>):

buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:

The above grant seems to be an example of what I've been complaining
about with respect to state taxes.

Well, why haven't you straightened them out?

State lawmakers have never gotten
their acts together with respect to making laws that respect all
religious perspectives.

Well, it's hard to make sure the governments don't discriminate against the
Baptists, Santerialists and just how many members of minority groups should
The Church of the Creator be allowed to sacrifice? And you do know how the
Mayans are. Sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice - at least down here, there
aren't that many virgins.
And where does the line get drawn for the Dominican Brotherhood and their
main product?
Even as Robert Jones writes,
Historians often divide the study of
the Inquisition into two major segments
the Medieval (or Papal) Inquisition, which
was an arm of the Papacy, and the Spanish
Inquisition, which, while closely associated
with the Church, is primarily viewed as a
tool of the secular government of Spain.

<http://www.sundayschoolcourses.com/inq/inquisition.htm>
And, by the most amazing coincidence and germaine to reuniting church and
state:
Use of torture

The use of torture was authorized in 1252
by Pope Innocent IV. In Spain, it is estimated
that torture was used in about 1/3 of all cases.
(Hroch, p. 146) The purpose of torture was to
exact confessions. Since some people questioned
whether confessions received under torture were
valid, the accused would be asked to verify
what they had admitted under torture several
hours later. If they refused to validate their
confession, they would be subject to more
torture!
Popular methods of torture included flogging,
burning, the rack, and the roasting of feet over
burning coals. In Spain and Italy, the garrucha
was popular the victim¹s hands would be
tied behind their back, and they¹d be lifted
off the ground by a rope tied around the wrists.
As I noted, the "coincidence" of this time when many are advovating a return
to theocracy for the temporal world and the merger of religion and state,
that Department of Defense Secretary Donald "Electrodes to the Nuts"
Rumsfeld, Vice-President Richard "I run things around here" Cheney and
Attorney General Alberto "Sic 'em, Rover, I Say It's All Right" Gonzales are
going to be able to pick up The Inquisition right where those cowards left
off with it.

No, Pookie. Jefferson on the 14th Amendment is as crazy as you.

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation
of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."
--Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545

So no tax money should /ever/ go to /any/ religious activity because that
would interfere with "Religious Freedom".

I will also note

But you'll be wrong, piggy.

that it is just as tyrannical for tax money that is
presently being collected from unwilling religious factions to be used
to pay for evolution classes, for example, in public schools.

So science can not be taught but re-invoking The Inquisition can?
By any chance, do you believe that anyone who disagrees with you doesn't
understand Fredism properly and should be executed on your say-so?

State
lawmakers are going to have to wise up and find ways to smartly manage
"sensitive" taxes.

And, still from that same URL, I can see no one not being able to relate this
passage to our own Fred and to "Fredism" as the true union of torture, death
and tyranny:
Once the sentences had been read, those
sentenced to death were led to the place
of burning (quemadero in Spanish). Those
that repented after being sentenced to death
would be offered the courtesy of being
garroted to death before being burned.
Those that refused to recant (often Cathar
perfecti, Lutherans and Calvinists in Italy
and Spain, etc.) were burned alive.
Those burned at the stake would often
have ghoulish company. It was common
practice to sentence the dead to burning.
The dead would dutifully be disinterred
and placed next to the still living victims.
As horrifying as this spectacle might seem,
there was a pragmatic reason for charging,
sentencing, disinterring, and burning the
dead the goods of their families could
be confiscated.
That seems to be the work of an ancestor of unDead Fred;
our own Domini canes.
Down, Boy.
Gray Shockley
-----------------------------------------
Psychic Vampires cannot see
their reflections in mirrors.
Can your reflection be seen
in a mirror, Fred?

***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************

User: "Dave"
Title: Re: Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention; likely thekind of tyranny that Jefferson warned against	14 Apr 2006 08:24:06 PM

fred wrote:

buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:

The above grant seems to be an example of what I've been complaining
about with respect to state taxes. State lawmakers have never gotten
their acts together with respect to making laws that respect all
religious perspectives. I don't know the details of the above
mentioned grant. But given the $150,000 targeted for the Baptist
convention includes money collected from unwilling secular taxpayers,
then the people who are negotiating the grant are ultimately abusing
the 14th Amendment protected personal federal rights of these secular
taxpayers in my opinion. Jefferson put it this way:

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation
of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."
--Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545

I will also note that it is just as tyrannical for tax money that is
presently being collected from unwilling religious factions to be used
to pay for evolution classes, for example, in public schools. State
lawmakers are going to have to wise up and find ways to smartly manage
"sensitive" taxes.

Fred, do you believe in Biblical Creation or in the scientific theory of
evolution? Do you think that because the lack of scientific discovery
hundreds of years ago could have lead to the beliefs that were
supernatural? Is there any evidence that could come from my side of the
fence to sway you to accept evolution? If you showed me evidence of God
that I could verify, do you think I might accept your point of view?
Science, including the scientific theory of evolution, is not about
belief, it's about the processes of the natural world and being able to
test them. If the Discovery Institute and ID proponents want to bring
forth a rigorous, peer-reviewed, scientific theory of supernatural
Creation, great! Until that time, the best answer science has of where
we came from is the scientific theory of evolution. Trying to put the
cart before the horse with regards to getting ID in the schools first
and then supposedly testing ID isn't acceptable science.
I understand where you are coming from. I don't want my tax dollars
going to Microsoft to teach kids how to use Microsoft products when
there are better free (as in speech and beer) products out there, like
Linux and BSD. The answers I here from this argument is that 'everyone
uses Microsoft.' That's not a very good reason to be spending tax dollars.
I find it odd that there are plenty of private religious schools that
are inexpensive with regards to tuition. Also, parents can choose to
home school. It's unfortunate that we don't live in anarchy. I would
bet that most of us want things like police, firemen, snow plows, water
projects and public schools. Because they teach something that is
disagreeable doesn't mean it shouldn't be taught.
.

User: "fred"
Title: Re: Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention; likely the kind of tyranny that Jefferson warned against	14 Apr 2006 10:16:02 PM

Dave wrote:

fred wrote:

buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:

The above grant seems to be an example of what I've been complaining
about with respect to state taxes. State lawmakers have never gotten
their acts together with respect to making laws that respect all
religious perspectives. I don't know the details of the above
mentioned grant. But given the $150,000 targeted for the Baptist
convention includes money collected from unwilling secular taxpayers,
then the people who are negotiating the grant are ultimately abusing
the 14th Amendment protected personal federal rights of these secular
taxpayers in my opinion. Jefferson put it this way:

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation
of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."
--Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545

I will also note that it is just as tyrannical for tax money that is
presently being collected from unwilling religious factions to be used
to pay for evolution classes, for example, in public schools. State
lawmakers are going to have to wise up and find ways to smartly manage
"sensitive" taxes.

Fred, do you believe in Biblical Creation or in the scientific theory of
evolution?

Yes.
Genesis reasonably indicates that modern man, starting with Adam, is
about 6000 years old. But I don't agree with Creationists that Genesis
gives information about the age of the earth; Creationists simply
assume that the earth is as old as modern man. Note that I believe
that God could have commanded the heavens and the earth to exist
instantly, so 24 hour periods are not an issue with me. But as opposed
to providing enough information to calculate age of modern man, Genesis
simply doesn't give enough information, in my opinion, to estimate the
age of the universe/earth.
Regarding evolution, given Genesis doesn't specify how God created the
earth, who's to say that God didn't employ so-called evolution
processes?
The problem that Christians have with evolution is that when their
children raise their hands in mandatory evolution class and ask their
teacher how life originated, the teacher might tell them that life is
an accidental happening from the right chemicals getting together.
This is regardless that evolutionists cannot create life in the
laboratory to prove this.

Do you think that because the lack of scientific discovery
hundreds of years ago could have lead to the beliefs that were
supernatural?

Yes.
Is there any evidence that could come from my side of the

fence to sway you to accept evolution?

I believe that you are stereotyping me as a YEC. I am not a YEC.
If you showed me evidence of God

that I could verify, do you think I might accept your point of view?

No Christian has ever become a Christian because some other Christian
showed them evidence of God. Jesus reveals himself spiritually to
those who choose to put their faith in Jesus. John 20:27-19,
Revelation 3:20, Luke 17:20-21.

Science, including the scientific theory of evolution, is not about
belief, it's about the processes of the natural world and being able to
test them.

The problem is that evolutionists seem to be satisfied with connecting
"straight lines" between known dots in the archaeological record,
seemingly oblivious to the possibility that straight lines may be an
oversimplification of reality.

If the Discovery Institute and ID proponents want to bring
forth a rigorous, peer-reviewed, scientific theory of supernatural
Creation, great! Until that time, the best answer science has of where
we came from is the scientific theory of evolution. Trying to put the
cart before the horse with regards to getting ID in the schools first
and then supposedly testing ID isn't acceptable science.

I believe that Creationists tried to slide creationism under the doors
of our science classrooms by trying to package creationism as a
science. (Evolutionists are just as bad with respect to not only
denying the amount of guesswork involved in evolution "science," but
also expecting Christian taxpayers to help pay for such classes.)
However, as I have been repeatedly posting, public schools who are
attempting to offer ID classes under ELECTIVE PHILOSOPHY, for example,
are still running into constitutionally unwarranted legal problems:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,181905,00.html

I understand where you are coming from. I don't want my tax dollars
going to Microsoft to teach kids how to use Microsoft products when
there are better free (as in speech and beer) products out there, like
Linux and BSD. The answers I here from this argument is that 'everyone
uses Microsoft.' That's not a very good reason to be spending tax dollars.

I find it odd that there are plenty of private religious schools that
are inexpensive with regards to tuition.

Money is probably tigher for many people then you seem to think; single
parents, etc.

Also, parents can choose to
home school.

How many single parents working multiple jobs, for example, have this
choice? Such a parent may want to come home and crash.

It's unfortunate that we don't live in anarchy. I would
bet that most of us want things like police, firemen, snow plows, water
projects and public schools. Because they teach something that is
disagreeable doesn't mean it shouldn't be taught.

User: ""
Title: Re: Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention; likely the kind of tyranny that Jefferson warned against	15 Apr 2006 10:16:00 AM

On 14 Apr 2006 20:16:02 -0700, "fred"
<clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:

Fred, do you believe in Biblical Creation or in the scientific theory of
evolution?

Yes.

Genesis reasonably indicates that modern man,

There's your problem freddie
Anything writting in "genesis" cannot be scientifically
recreated, observed, tested.
It's a story--
MOF, it's a story that was written thousands of years
BEFORE a unitary god was ever invented.
Humans who predate Sumaria wrote that "epic", Freddie.
It was incorporated into the Judean religion.
.

User: "fred"
Title: Re: Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention; likely the kind of tyranny that Jefferson warned against	15 Apr 2006 10:42:52 AM

laffs@'em-all.com wrote:

On 14 Apr 2006 20:16:02 -0700, "fred"
<clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:

Fred, do you believe in Biblical Creation or in the scientific theory of
evolution?

Yes.

Genesis reasonably indicates that modern man,

There's your problem freddie

Anything writting in "genesis" cannot be scientifically
recreated, observed, tested.

It's a story--

MOF, it's a story that was written thousands of years
BEFORE a unitary god was ever invented.

Humans who predate Sumaria wrote that "epic", Freddie.

It was incorporated into the Judean religion.

Thank you for your opinion about Genesis.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention; likely the kind of tyranny that Jefferson warned against	15 Apr 2006 04:29:09 PM

On 15 Apr 2006 08:42:52 -0700, "fred"
<clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:

Anything writting in "genesis" cannot be scientifically
recreated, observed, tested.

It's a story--

MOF, it's a story that was written thousands of years
BEFORE a unitary god was ever invented.

Humans who predate Sumaria wrote that "epic", Freddie.

It was incorporated into the Judean religion.

Thank you for your opinion about Genesis.

No, thank you for being stupid enough to cite stories
and fairy tales as "scientific" evidence.
It makes it fun to have you help us whack you.
.

User: "Dave"
Title: Re: Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention; likely thekind of tyranny that Jefferson warned against	15 Apr 2006 12:29:22 AM

fred wrote:

Dave wrote:

fred wrote:

buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:

The above grant seems to be an example of what I've been complaining
about with respect to state taxes. State lawmakers have never gotten
their acts together with respect to making laws that respect all
religious perspectives. I don't know the details of the above
mentioned grant. But given the $150,000 targeted for the Baptist
convention includes money collected from unwilling secular taxpayers,
then the people who are negotiating the grant are ultimately abusing
the 14th Amendment protected personal federal rights of these secular
taxpayers in my opinion. Jefferson put it this way:

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation
of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."
--Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545

I will also note that it is just as tyrannical for tax money that is
presently being collected from unwilling religious factions to be used
to pay for evolution classes, for example, in public schools. State
lawmakers are going to have to wise up and find ways to smartly manage
"sensitive" taxes.

Fred, do you believe in Biblical Creation or in the scientific theory of
evolution?

Science has a pretty good estimate of the age of the universe and the
age of the earth and it is testable and falsifiable (by this,
falsifiable means that if there's a better answer, it will take the
place of the current theory).

Regarding evolution, given Genesis doesn't specify how God created the
earth, who's to say that God didn't employ so-called evolution
processes?

The problem that Christians have with evolution is that when their
children raise their hands in mandatory evolution class and ask their
teacher how life originated, the teacher might tell them that life is
an accidental happening from the right chemicals getting together.
This is regardless that evolutionists cannot create life in the
laboratory to prove this.

Do you think that because the lack of scientific discovery
hundreds of years ago could have lead to the beliefs that were
supernatural?

Yes.

I was meaning in the time the Bible was written. No stereotyping.
As knowledge increases, old beliefs are harder to endure, enjoy, have,
etc., e.g. geocentric to heliocentric to neither.

Is there any evidence that could come from my side of the

fence to sway you to accept evolution?

I believe that you are stereotyping me as a YEC. I am not a YEC.

If you showed me evidence of God

that I could verify, do you think I might accept your point of view?

Science, including the scientific theory of evolution, is not about
belief, it's about the processes of the natural world and being able to
test them.

What do you think of Tiktaalik, the transitional fossil found recently?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik
Part of the problem with a continuous lineage of the fossil record is
that animals that die need to die in the mud and be covered rather
quickly, otherwise the carcasses will be devoured by other animals.

As I asked in the other post, the El Cajon schools dropped it rather
than fight it. The USSC is leaning toward dominionist/originalist
ideals and perhaps the situation to which you complain about could be
rectified.
I'm not opposed to discussing the lack of the scientific merits of the
supernatural in a science class. Take the 4 simple steps of the
scientific process, observe, hypothesize, test, repeat, and apply them
to the subject. Maybe if people looked more into the process rather
than the politically motivated discussions, there would be a clearer
picture of science.

Money is probably tigher for many people then you seem to think; single
parents, etc.

Also, parents can choose to
home school.

How many single parents working multiple jobs, for example, have this
choice? Such a parent may want to come home and crash.

Religious schools offer scholarships or tuition reimbursement for those
that are not as capable to pay.
I'm rambling.
.

User: "fred"
Title: Re: Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention; likely the kind of tyranny that Jefferson warned against	15 Apr 2006 01:53:53 AM

Dave wrote:

fred wrote:

Dave wrote:

fred wrote:

buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:

The above grant seems to be an example of what I've been complaining
about with respect to state taxes. State lawmakers have never gotten
their acts together with respect to making laws that respect all
religious perspectives. I don't know the details of the above
mentioned grant. But given the $150,000 targeted for the Baptist
convention includes money collected from unwilling secular taxpayers,
then the people who are negotiating the grant are ultimately abusing
the 14th Amendment protected personal federal rights of these secular
taxpayers in my opinion. Jefferson put it this way:

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation
of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."
--Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545

I will also note that it is just as tyrannical for tax money that is
presently being collected from unwilling religious factions to be used
to pay for evolution classes, for example, in public schools. State
lawmakers are going to have to wise up and find ways to smartly manage
"sensitive" taxes.

Fred, do you believe in Biblical Creation or in the scientific theory of
evolution?

But can a better answer prove the current answer wrong?

Do you think that because the lack of scientific discovery
hundreds of years ago could have lead to the beliefs that were
supernatural?

Yes.

I was meaning in the time the Bible was written. No stereotyping.

I'm not sure what you mean by "beliefs that were supernatural".

As knowledge increases, old beliefs are harder to endure, enjoy, have,
etc., e.g. geocentric to heliocentric to neither.

Is there any evidence that could come from my side of the

fence to sway you to accept evolution?

I believe that you are stereotyping me as a YEC. I am not a YEC.

If you showed me evidence of God

that I could verify, do you think I might accept your point of view?

Science, including the scientific theory of evolution, is not about
belief, it's about the processes of the natural world and being able to
test them.

What do you think of Tiktaalik, the transitional fossil found recently?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik

That animal is an excellent example of connecting straight lines
between known dots. My gripe is that the only "proof" that people have
that such an animal is an example of transitory evolution is the
"reality" animations that people invent in their imaginations. In
other words, faith is the basis for evolution reality as much as faith
is the basis for Jesus.

As I asked in the other post, the El Cajon schools dropped it rather
than fight it. The USSC is leaning toward dominionist/originalist
ideals and perhaps the situation to which you complain about could be
rectified.

I'm not opposed to discussing the lack of the scientific merits of the
supernatural in a science class. Take the 4 simple steps of the
scientific process, observe, hypothesize, test, repeat, and apply them
to the subject. Maybe if people looked more into the process rather
than the politically motivated discussions, there would be a clearer
picture of science.

Speaking of the scientific process, I have a problem with evolution
"scientists" determining that evolution processes take millions of year
to complete when a scientific test would arguably have to last that
long to unrefutably prove it.

Money is probably tigher for many people then you seem to think; single
parents, etc.

Also, parents can choose to
home school.

How many single parents working multiple jobs, for example, have this
choice? Such a parent may want to come home and crash.

Religious schools offer scholarships or tuition reimbursement for those
that are not as capable to pay.

I'm rambling.

Yes, I know. ;^)
.

User: "c-bee1"
Title: Re: Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention; likely the kind of tyranny that Jefferson warned against	15 Apr 2006 12:26:36 PM

"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1145084033.511662.62090@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...

Dave wrote:

fred wrote:

Dave wrote:

fred wrote:

buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:

whether

the donation violates rules regarding separation of church and

state. ...

The above grant seems to be an example of what I've been complaining
about with respect to state taxes. State lawmakers have never

gotten

their acts together with respect to making laws that respect all
religious perspectives. I don't know the details of the above
mentioned grant. But given the $150,000 targeted for the Baptist
convention includes money collected from unwilling secular

taxpayers,

then the people who are negotiating the grant are ultimately abusing
the 14th Amendment protected personal federal rights of these

secular

taxpayers in my opinion. Jefferson put it this way:

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the

propagation

of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and

tyrannical."

--Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545

I will also note that it is just as tyrannical for tax money that is
presently being collected from unwilling religious factions to be

used

to pay for evolution classes, for example, in public schools. State
lawmakers are going to have to wise up and find ways to smartly

manage

"sensitive" taxes.

Fred, do you believe in Biblical Creation or in the scientific theory

evolution?

Yes.

Genesis reasonably indicates that modern man, starting with Adam, is
about 6000 years old. But I don't agree with Creationists that

Genesis

gives information about the age of the earth; Creationists simply
assume that the earth is as old as modern man. Note that I believe
that God could have commanded the heavens and the earth to exist
instantly, so 24 hour periods are not an issue with me. But as opposed
to providing enough information to calculate age of modern man,

Genesis

simply doesn't give enough information, in my opinion, to estimate the
age of the universe/earth.

But can a better answer prove the current answer wrong?

Answers don't prove theories wrong. Hard work and peer review prove
theories wrong.

Do you think that because the lack of scientific discovery
hundreds of years ago could have lead to the beliefs that were
supernatural?

Yes.

I was meaning in the time the Bible was written. No stereotyping.

I'm not sure what you mean by "beliefs that were supernatural".

Probably Creationism.

As knowledge increases, old beliefs are harder to endure, enjoy, have,
etc., e.g. geocentric to heliocentric to neither.

Is there any evidence that could come from my side of the

fence to sway you to accept evolution?

I believe that you are stereotyping me as a YEC. I am not a YEC.

If you showed me evidence of God

that I could verify, do you think I might accept your point of view?

Science, including the scientific theory of evolution, is not about
belief, it's about the processes of the natural world and being able

test them.

What do you think of Tiktaalik, the transitional fossil found recently?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik

Um, no. Evolution is backed up by thousands of experiments, in many
disciplines, by hundreds of thousands of researchers, and none of their work
has ever been disproven in a way that invalidates evolution.

If the Discovery Institute and ID proponents want to bring
forth a rigorous, peer-reviewed, scientific theory of supernatural
Creation, great! Until that time, the best answer science has of

where

we came from is the scientific theory of evolution. Trying to put

the

cart before the horse with regards to getting ID in the schools first
and then supposedly testing ID isn't acceptable science.

As I asked in the other post, the El Cajon schools dropped it rather
than fight it. The USSC is leaning toward dominionist/originalist
ideals and perhaps the situation to which you complain about could be
rectified.

I'm not opposed to discussing the lack of the scientific merits of the
supernatural in a science class. Take the 4 simple steps of the
scientific process, observe, hypothesize, test, repeat, and apply them
to the subject. Maybe if people looked more into the process rather
than the politically motivated discussions, there would be a clearer
picture of science.

Um, no. You see, there are things in this world that keep happening even
when we're not looking. Like radioactive decay.
.

User: "fred"
Title: Re: Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention; likely the kind of tyranny that Jefferson warned against	15 Apr 2006 05:56:36 PM

c-bee1 wrote:

"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1145084033.511662.62090@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...

Dave wrote:

fred wrote:

Dave wrote:

fred wrote:

buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:

whether

the donation violates rules regarding separation of church and

state. ...

The above grant seems to be an example of what I've been complaining
about with respect to state taxes. State lawmakers have never

gotten

taxpayers,

then the people who are negotiating the grant are ultimately abusing
the 14th Amendment protected personal federal rights of these

secular

taxpayers in my opinion. Jefferson put it this way:

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the

propagation

of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and

tyrannical."

used

to pay for evolution classes, for example, in public schools. State
lawmakers are going to have to wise up and find ways to smartly

manage

"sensitive" taxes.

Fred, do you believe in Biblical Creation or in the scientific theory

evolution?

Yes.

Genesis reasonably indicates that modern man, starting with Adam, is
about 6000 years old. But I don't agree with Creationists that

Genesis

simply doesn't give enough information, in my opinion, to estimate the
age of the universe/earth.

But can a better answer prove the current answer wrong?

Answers don't prove theories wrong. Hard work and peer review prove
theories wrong.

"Answers" is the word that the other poster used. Given that you
didn't want to hear that a better answer can prove the current answer
wrong, I'm going to accept the possibility that better answers can
actually prove current answers wrong.

Do you think that because the lack of scientific discovery
hundreds of years ago could have lead to the beliefs that were
supernatural?

Yes.

I was meaning in the time the Bible was written. No stereotyping.

I'm not sure what you mean by "beliefs that were supernatural".

Probably Creationism.

Why didn't the other poster just say creationism then?

As knowledge increases, old beliefs are harder to endure, enjoy, have,
etc., e.g. geocentric to heliocentric to neither.

Is there any evidence that could come from my side of the

fence to sway you to accept evolution?

I believe that you are stereotyping me as a YEC. I am not a YEC.

If you showed me evidence of God

that I could verify, do you think I might accept your point of view?

Science, including the scientific theory of evolution, is not about
belief, it's about the processes of the natural world and being able

test them.

What do you think of Tiktaalik, the transitional fossil found recently?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik

It was so thoughtful of you to provide a few URL's about those
experiments. Given the large number of experiments that have been
done, I'm sure that it was difficult to narrow down which ones to post.
And I am totally impressed by those grade school science fair
projects. I also appreciate that you didn't refence any of the verbose
sophistry at talk.origins that merely attempts to smokescreen the
integrity of evolution science.

If the Discovery Institute and ID proponents want to bring
forth a rigorous, peer-reviewed, scientific theory of supernatural
Creation, great! Until that time, the best answer science has of

where

we came from is the scientific theory of evolution. Trying to put

the

cart before the horse with regards to getting ID in the schools first
and then supposedly testing ID isn't acceptable science.

As I asked in the other post, the El Cajon schools dropped it rather
than fight it. The USSC is leaning toward dominionist/originalist
ideals and perhaps the situation to which you complain about could be
rectified.

I'm not opposed to discussing the lack of the scientific merits of the
supernatural in a science class. Take the 4 simple steps of the
scientific process, observe, hypothesize, test, repeat, and apply them
to the subject. Maybe if people looked more into the process rather
than the politically motivated discussions, there would be a clearer
picture of science.

Um, no. You see, there are things in this world that keep happening even
when we're not looking. Like radioactive decay.

Yes, certainly one of these days we'll know as much about the mutation
of complex DNA codes as we now know about the behavior of subatomic
particles.
.

User: "Gray Shockley"
Title: Re: Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention; likely the kind of tyranny that Jefferson warned against	17 Apr 2006 02:12:10 PM

On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 01:53:53 -0500, fred wrote
(in article <1145084033.511662.62090@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>):

Dave wrote:

fred wrote:

Dave wrote:

fred wrote:

buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:

The above grant seems to be an example of what I've been complaining
about with respect to state taxes. State lawmakers have never gotten
their acts together with respect to making laws that respect all
religious perspectives. I don't know the details of the above
mentioned grant. But given the $150,000 targeted for the Baptist
convention includes money collected from unwilling secular taxpayers,
then the people who are negotiating the grant are ultimately abusing
the 14th Amendment protected personal federal rights of these secular
taxpayers in my opinion. Jefferson put it this way:

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation
of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."
--Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545

I will also note that it is just as tyrannical for tax money that is
presently being collected from unwilling religious factions to be used
to pay for evolution classes, for example, in public schools. State
lawmakers are going to have to wise up and find ways to smartly manage
"sensitive" taxes.

Fred, do you believe in Biblical Creation or in the scientific theory of
evolution?

But can a better answer prove the current answer wrong?

Do you think that because the lack of scientific discovery
hundreds of years ago could have lead to the beliefs that were
supernatural?

Yes.

I was meaning in the time the Bible was written. No stereotyping.

I'm not sure what you mean by "beliefs that were supernatural".

As knowledge increases, old beliefs are harder to endure, enjoy, have,
etc., e.g. geocentric to heliocentric to neither.

Is there any evidence that could come from my side of the

fence to sway you to accept evolution?

I believe that you are stereotyping me as a YEC. I am not a YEC.

If you showed me evidence of God

that I could verify, do you think I might accept your point of view?

Science, including the scientific theory of evolution, is not about
belief, it's about the processes of the natural world and being able to
test them.

What do you think of Tiktaalik, the transitional fossil found recently?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik

Have you ever seen a fish walking?
Well, I have.
Something very strange and
mystic happened to me,
Something realistic and as
weird as can be.
Something that I feared somehow
is now endeared to me;
Oh, it's so grand and
it's too, too divine.
I've seen a fish walking,
And it's too divine
And the fossil is so,
So incredibly fine.
Gray Shockley
----------------------------
with apologies to
Mack Gordon, of course

As I asked in the other post, the El Cajon schools dropped it rather
than fight it. The USSC is leaning toward dominionist/originalist
ideals and perhaps the situation to which you complain about could be
rectified.

I'm not opposed to discussing the lack of the scientific merits of the
supernatural in a science class. Take the 4 simple steps of the
scientific process, observe, hypothesize, test, repeat, and apply them
to the subject. Maybe if people looked more into the process rather
than the politically motivated discussions, there would be a clearer
picture of science.

I understand where you are coming from. I don't want my tax dollars
going to Microsoft to teach kids how to use Microsoft products when
there are better free (as in speech and beer) products out there, like
Linux and BSD. The answers I here from this argument is that 'everyone
uses Microsoft.' That's not a very good reason to be spending tax
dollars.

I find it odd that there are plenty of private religious schools that
are inexpensive with regards to tuition.

Money is probably tigher for many people then you seem to think; single
parents, etc.

Also, parents can choose to
home school.

How many single parents working multiple jobs, for example, have this
choice? Such a parent may want to come home and crash.

Religious schools offer scholarships or tuition reimbursement for those
that are not as capable to pay.

I'm rambling.

Yes, I know. ;^)

User: "Dave"
Title: Re: Ehrlich wants $150,000 grant for Baptist convention; likely thekind of tyranny that Jefferson warned against	15 Apr 2006 11:32:14 AM

fred wrote:

Dave wrote:

fred wrote:

Dave wrote:

fred wrote:

buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:

The above grant seems to be an example of what I've been complaining
about with respect to state taxes. State lawmakers have never gotten
their acts together with respect to making laws that respect all
religious perspectives. I don't know the details of the above
mentioned grant. But given the $150,000 targeted for the Baptist
convention includes money collected from unwilling secular taxpayers,
then the people who are negotiating the grant are ultimately abusing
the 14th Amendment protected personal federal rights of these secular
taxpayers in my opinion. Jefferson put it this way:

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation
of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."
--Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545

I will also note that it is just as tyrannical for tax money that is
presently being collected from unwilling religious factions to be used
to pay for evolution classes, for example, in public schools. State
lawmakers are going to have to wise up and find ways to smartly manage
"sensitive" taxes.

Fred, do you believe in Biblical Creation or in the scientific theory of
evolution?

But can a better answer prove the current answer wrong?

Yes, that's why scientific theories are falsifiable.

Do you think that because the lack of scientific discovery
hundreds of years ago could have lead to the beliefs that were
supernatural?

Yes.

I was meaning in the time the Bible was written. No stereotyping.

I'm not sure what you mean by "beliefs that were supernatural".

Do we, in general, believe in the Greek Gods, Norse Gods, like Odin and
Thor, the Sun God, the Moon God, et. al. Leprechauns, unicorns, Santa
Claus, etc. There were a lot of beliefs to compensate for the
scientific ignorance of the times. Which then leads to . . .

As knowledge increases, old beliefs are harder to endure, enjoy, have,
etc., e.g. geocentric to heliocentric to neither.

Is there any evidence that could come from my side of the

fence to sway you to accept evolution?

I believe that you are stereotyping me as a YEC. I am not a YEC.

If you showed me evidence of God

that I could verify, do you think I might accept your point of view?

Science, including the scientific theory of evolution, is not about
belief, it's about the processes of the natural world and being able to
test them.

What do you think of Tiktaalik, the transitional fossil found recently?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik

No it isn't, for example bacterial resistance, different breeds of dogs
and cats, ligers and tigons. The bicyclist Lance Armstrong has a
genetic mutation in his heart and if he is able to pass that on to his
descendants, doesn't that give his descendants an advantage with regards
to endurance? Those are not faith-based evolutionary events, that's
evolution.

Part of the problem with a continuous lineage of the fossil record is
that animals that die need to die in the mud and be covered rather
quickly, otherwise the carcasses will be devoured by other animals.

As I asked in the other post, the El Cajon schools dropped it rather
than fight it. The USSC is leaning toward dominionist/originalist
ideals and perhaps the situation to which you complain about could be
rectified.

I'm not opposed to discussing the lack of the scientific merits of the
supernatural in a science class. Take the 4 simple steps of the
scientific process, observe, hypothesize, test, repeat, and apply them
to the subject. Maybe if people looked more into the process rather
than the politically motivated discussions, there would be a clearer
picture of science.

In the Petri dish, it has be irrefutably proven. Lifespans that are
longer will take longer to verify. Longevity is a good example of
evolution. 2000 years ago, the average life span was about 35 years.
As we have learned about germs and diseases, we have been able to have a
longer, quality life. But the resistance to some things has waned. I
might be smoking something here, but allergies have increased over this
time too.
.

Page 1 of 1

Post reply

A different kind of Baptist?
Jd Christian Morality: Baptist College Alum Setenced for Massive Fraud
Baptist Pastor denounces Separation Principle
Courts to decide if state can fund Baptist school's pharmacy ...
Phil Strickland, head of Texas Baptist moral-concerns agency, dies ...
Director of national Baptist advocacy group speaks at Campbell
Baptist of the Month Announced: Pastor Edgar Ray Killen
The "Gay Plague" vs the "Southern Baptist Plague"

Senator Barack Obama speech at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta
Ken Lay, Son of a Baptist Minister...
Scholars affirm Baptist concept of religious liberty at conference
Baptist associations to celebrate 300th anniversary
Natural disasters dominated news in 2005, Baptist editors say
A different kind of church, a different kind of Baptist
Religious Liberty Council Issue Guide. Baptist joint Commission

NEWER

pg.544 pg.412 pg.311 pg.234 pg.175 pg.130 pg.96 pg.70 pg.50 pg.35 pg.24 pg.16 pg.10 pg.6 pg.3 pg.1

OLDER