On Jul 22, 4:00 pm,
(Bobby > In article <1184873139.211531.245...@d55g2000hsg.
googlegroups.comBryant) wrote:
sdr <sdrodr...@sdrodrian.com> writes:
Existence is absolutely deterministic.
Physicists have determined otherwise.
--
Bobby Bryant
Reno, Nevada
Don't bet on it, Bobby.
Or, before you place that bet, at least consider
THE SORT of "physicists" who have made
the "claim" that there is a portion of existence
where the laws of physics (i.e. determinism)
do not apply. In essence, Quanta Theory is
statistical analysis (it is BOUND to produce
the most informed guess, but it is NEVER looking
directly and absolutely at its subject in its
totality). This explains its many (and continuing)
successes; and why it ought to have no say
--whatsoever-- in any discussion trying to settle
the question of the nature of existence in its sum
total. [You cannot have someone who is but guessing
about exactly what it is he/she is looking at being
the final arbiter of that thing's description--and no
matter how well such a guess works in the meantime.]
START QUOTE
mccarthy@volny.cz writes:
Mr. S D Rodrian,
I have been reading scientific articles
(i.e. space.com, nature.com,
etc) and following the mainstream
thinking (BB, string theory, QM,
QP, extra dimensions, etc.) for
the last 8-10 years and not
understanding what all the fudge
factors (dark energy, dark matter,
etc.) are all about and why they
were so illogical.
With great difficulty, I managed to
wrap my head around most of it
except that in spite of all I read,
I could never ever comprehend
where a single photon emitted from
a candle gets its insane energy
and acceleration to travel that "fast"
( in all 3 dimensions ) and
always regain its speed after being
slowed down by some medium.
It never occurred to me that a
photon is created, suspended in
'place' while everything else is
collapsing (imploding) towards,
from, away or past this photon -
depending on one's reference point.
Your explanation clicked something
I can understand and comprehend
now in laymen's terms; and as you
said, it should be simple enough
for me to see everything from
hereon out on my own.
much appreciated,
-eric
******************************************
eric,
Thank you for your note. I was just now
thinking about the implosion vs expansion
(Big Bang, et al) dichotomy. And contemplating
the endless number of nonsense required for
the expansion model to "work" (not to mention
all the things which actually put it into question)...
while at the same time realizing that I have yet
to find a single objection to my own implosion
"viewpoint."
I am more than willing to admit that if ever
there is ANY objection (even the slightest), my
entire theory would collapse--and I would be
more than glad to admit it: If but a paperclip
were to cast a doubt on it, that would be enough
for me. And I would let others fight it out from
here on out.
But I have not yet run across even a paperclip
objecting to it. And so I will continue to believe
that the implosion model describes the universe
--And that THAT is why everything appears to
agree with it. Reality agrees with itself.
I believe the world (of men) will slowly but
eventually come around--One can only ignore
the Sun in the sky so long.
Good luck,
S D Rodrian
******************************************
mccarthy@volny.cz wrote:
To S D Rodrian:
....and I appreciate your reply.
I am sure you get enough email to
make it impossible to answer all of them.
I am not a mathematician, physicist
etc., just a plain M.Sc. from a
canadian university. I have been
trying to find some model that
would explain the world around me
for years now. Since "everybody"
was so excited and united wrt the
BBang, strings, "branes" concept,
it appeared they just "must" be correct
even though my logic couldn't
get around all the complexities and
hiccups involved in the BB model.
This may sound silly, however, since
I couldn't possibly get my head
around the BB concept with crashing
branes, multi-dimensions, etc. in
its entirety, I had started
compensating for the lack of logical
flow in the BB th. by thinking about
our universe as a computer
generated, recursive, virtual reality
simulation. The BBang being
"somebody" throwing the switch
and all the inconsistencies and
contradictions in the model being
programming mistakes. I thought of
it all as a universe within universe(s)
with time as such being
relative and irrelevant.
Right or wrong, your theory/explanation
via imploding universe using
laws of thermo-dynamics clicked with
me and the logic of universe
finally flows for me. It just makes
plain sense. The fact I can now
understand why photon behaves the
way it behaves was well worth the 5-
6 hours it took me to read your
material and absorb it. Great stuff.
You certainly gave me a lot to think
about...in a different light.
thanks again,
-eric
********************************************
mccarthy@volny.cz wrote:
Hi, S D Rodrian:
can this double-slit experiment:
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/quantum_astronomy_041111.html
be explained by the imploding universe model?
How can a photon pass
through two holes at the same time?
thanks,
-eric
*********************************************
eric,
I have sometimes thought it very well may. It might,
were the photon to not only not "move" but also not
"shrink" (however, this is self-evidently not the
case, or light could never be "aimed"). But I have
also had to admit that the double-slit experiment is
too subject to interpretation for a slick answer (it's
not just a matter of: ask a child what he/she is
seeing and of course you'll never get the QM answer
.... but that it also depends on a large number of
assumptions about the nature of the photon, et al,
going back to Thomas Young's 1803 version of the
double-slit experiment and Newton's even older
interpretations on the nature of light, all of which
have to be absolutely correct): The QM interpretation
is just that, one interpretation of the light
refraction. And none of the QM interpretations HAVE
TO BE correct: If they are ALL correct, however, then
the answer is either indeed the imploding universe
OR we are all insane. Hard to come up with a third
alternative:
Take the following quote from the article as the
perfect hint of what quantum fundamentalists
(extremists) are carried away with:
"and ... nothing existing until it is observed,
these are a few of the interpretations of quantum
reality that are consistent with the experiments
and observations."
Every child understand that the answer to the ancient
question of whether a falling tree really makes a
noise if there is no one there to hear it fall is that
YES IT DOES. But QM fundamentalists have not yet
grown up even to the level of children (apparently).
That's saying a lot.
It is merely/purely/only/simply a display of the
heights of human arrogance to claim that if WE cannot
"measure" something "it cannot be measured." And yet
we have made such a claim, as you can see!
The point that "one cannot measure something so
frail/delicate without the very act of measuring it
changing its character/nature/displacement" is
absolutely reasonable. But when one jumps from such
reasonableness to the idea that "something does not
have a definite position at a definite time--and ONLY
the measurement/observation GIVES it that." Then one
are talking logical insanity. One needs a doctor, not
a science journal editor.
Dr. Heisenberg wrote, "Some physicist would prefer
to come back to the idea of an objective real
world whose smallest parts exist objectively in
the same sense as stones or trees exist
independently of whether we observe them. This
however is impossible."
Quanta theory is one of the greatest mathematical
tools ever devised to "peer" into the realms of things
which will never be observed directly. But it is
merely a form of statistical analysis. Period. The
problem is that when QM theoreticians start "looking"
into the world that can NEVER be seen, they start
"seeing" everything in their heads there. And people's
heads are teeming with squirming eecky nightmares.
"Reality is absolutely deterministic." If ever you
hear that "an experiment" has proven this wrong, you
can be just as certain that it is the experiment that
is wrong as if you had heard that the real Santa Claus
was recently interviewed by Katie Curic. And no matter
how much you trust the integrity of Katie Curic.
"There are many ways we could go now in
examining quantum results. If conscious
observation is needed for the creation of an
electron (this is one aspect of the Copenhagen
Interpretation, the most popular version of
quantum physics interpretations), then ideas
about the origin of consciousness must be
revised. If electrons in the brain create
consciousness, but electrons require
consciousness to exist, one is apparently caught
in circular reasoning at best."
The paragraph above is obviously a man struggling with
his sanity. This is not science, this is psychology.
Trust Einstein in this at least: The world is sane,
period. When the "wise-***** kids" who came up with
the "uncertainly principle" and other insanities by
taking Quanta theory to its logical extremes were
being lionized for saying things nobody even bothered
to analyze in the light of day, all Einstein could say
was that "God didn't pray dice." In his quaint way,
what he was saying was that "reality is
deterministic." The alternative is "magic" (as
described in extremist QM) and "utter insanity"
(again, as described in extremist QM).
Quantum mechanics, as statistical analysis, will
always produce predictions which will bear out--It's
what statistical analysis does: wear down the numbers
to the most probable results.
NOTE, above all (or, if nothing else) this crucial
passage:
"The answer is that each individual photon must -
in order to have produced an interference pattern
-- have gone through both slits! This, the
simplest of quantum weirdness experiments, has
been the basis of many of the unintuitive
interpretations of quantum physics."
And there you have one of the greatest examples of how
just one very probably wrongly-interpreted experiment
can lead an entire mob of zebu-people utterly crazy.
The answer is NOT that the universe is magical and
utterly insane. The answer is more likely that there
is a simpler (and sane) explanation, after all.
As I said above, it's very possible that what we are
seeing is the photon acting very normally in an
imploding universe, but I just don't have the time now
to diagram all the steps. If you would like to, more
power to you! It's (probably) very simple--and people
shall laugh at why people should have thought it so
difficult (as people have done since the dawn of time).
S D Rodrian
**************************************************
mccarthy@volny.cz wrote:
Hi, S D Rodrian:
you wrote:
imploding universe, but I just don't
have the time now
to diagram all the steps.
If you would like to, more
that's fine; I just wondered if
there is some simple
explanation using a model we know
- perhaps your analogy with cork, helium
balloons, drag and so forth...
Also, perhaps the experiment itself is flawed in
some way i.e. how and when the photon is created,
how it (photon) reacts with the medium through
which it travels, what forces (el.magn.) iterfere with
it when the size of the slits and the material itself
is considered, etc. Anyway, I'd hate to speculate
about something that I cant competently defend.
thanks anyway; perhaps we'll know the answer
in our lifetime...
-eric
*************************************************
eric,
I actually saw the experiment carried out when I was
very young. (It's actually something of a requirement.)
Einstein was familiar with it too, and I don't wonder
it might have been the reason he never came out more
forcefully against the crazier QM claims. (Apparently,
Einstein's confidence in Reality was only "relative,"
whereas my confidence in Reality is ... absolute.)
I was rather impressed by it myself. And had (have)
no explanation for it (not that I have even given it
any serious time): However, not much later I watched
a lady being sawed in half and was equally baffled.
(And much more impressed... there were screams,
and a gush of blood... and if I'd had a gun with me
I don't know whether I might not have taken a shot
at the ***** doing the sawing.)
Was it all magic? The ONLY difference between the
two "tricks" is that the magician sawing the lady in
half only claimed his "magic" was real in jest. But,
I assume, those who "perform" the double-slit
experiment actually always believe in its "magic."
Ah! Some time later some TV magician explained
how the lady was sawed in half (and was later glued
back up with no apparent ill effects to her health).
And the whole thing was, rather quite embarrassingly,
very childishly simple.
I always regretted Einstein didn't attend that lady-
sawing performance--What might his mind have made
of it!
Will the explanation for the double-slit trick (I mean
"experiment") turn out to be as childishly simple? Who
knows? (I don't.) But, this is certain:
I think I'll wait (until they perform the experiment
inside a Bose-Einstein condensate with the photon
travelling at a few inches per hour or so ... so we
can "see" it go through the two different slits at the
same time and then bounce! against itself) before I
make any real attempt to "explain" an "experiment"
which (like the sawing-the-lady-in-half experiment)
just doesn't seem to square with reality. And reality
is the thing I am more inclined to trust, frankly.
THINK: Were the answer, say, that the photon quanta
is not inviolate and two photons are produced by
the experiment, then a most marvelous violation of
the conservation-of-energy laws would occur, and
by merely forcing a single photon through infinitely
doubling double-slit experiments... we could produce
enough energy to blow up the whole universe if
necessary!
PLEASE always remember: When you insist to someone
(who asks you whether a tree falling in the forest
without anybody being there to hear it fall makes a
noise) that, yes, it does and he/she then inevitably
asks you: "How do YOU know?!" Don't be shy about
pointing out that "identical conditions produce
identical results" (and that millions of trees have
fallen while people were present--and ALL of them
made a noise of falling). So there!
Similarly, when they ask you whether Schrodinger's
cat is alive or dead. You ask how long it's been in
the box. And if it's been in there a year ... that cat
is dead, baby: "You can bury the box now." And without
having to look inside, either. Some magic tricks are
just easier to figure out than others.
Please forgive me for not having given the double-slit
experiment more thought. But perhaps now you
understand why I never did.
Good luck,
S D Rodrian
http://poems.sdrodrian.com
http://physics.sdrodrian.com
http://mp3s.sdrodrian.com
All religions are local.
Only science is universal.
END QUOTE
"Experiments which produce verifiable results can
not be ignored, as they are the foundation and
sustenance of science. But this does not mean that
our immediate interpretations of those experiments
are and will always be the correct ones." --SDR
Finally: NOTE that the very fact that the double-slit
experiment ALWAYS produces the same results
(and does not merely have a propensity to do so)
is evidence of the deterministic nature of existence
regardless of whatever explanations we may prefer
to give for the results: "Identical conditions always
produce identical results." Period. Modern science
is based on verifiable (reproducible) results.
Everything else is lies, lies, and damned statistics.
S D Rodrian
http://poems.sdrodrian.com
http://physics.sdrodrian.com
http://mp3s.sdrodrian.com
All religions are local.
Only science is universal.
*************************************************
Here is the text of the articles in question:
Quantum Astronomy: The Double Slit Experiment
By Laurance R. Doyle
SETI Institute posted: 11 November 2004
This is a series of four articles each with a separate
explanation of different quantum phenomena. Each of
the four articles is a piece of a mosaic and so every
one is needed to understand the final explanation of
the quantum astronomy experiment we propose, possibly
using the Allen Array Telescope and the narrow-band
radio-wave detectors being build by the SETI Institute
and the University of California, Berkeley.
With the success of recent movies such as "What the
&$@# Do We Know?" and the ongoing -- and continuously
surprising -- revelations of the unexpected nature of
underlying reality that have been unfolding in quantum
physics for three-quarters of a century now, it may
not be particularly surprising that the quantum nature
of the universe may actually now be making in-roads
into what has previously been considered classical
observational astronomy. Quantum physics has been
applied for decades to cosmology, and the strange
"singularity" physics of black holes. It is also
applicable to macroscopic effects such as
Einstein-Bose condensates (extremely cold
conglomerations of material that behave in
non-classical ways) as well as neutron stars and even
white dwarfs (which are kept from collapse, not by
nuclear fusion explosions but by the Pauli Exclusion
Principle - a process whereby no two elementary
particles can have the same quantum state and
therefore, in a sense, not collapse into each other).
Well, congratulations if you have gotten through the
first paragraph of this essay. I can't honestly tell
you that things will get better, but I can say that to
the intrepid reader things should get even more
interesting. The famous quantum physicist Richard
Feynmann once said essentially that anyone who thought
he understood quantum physics did not understand it
enough to understand that he did not actually
understand it! In other words, no classical
interpretation of quantum physics is the correct one.
Parallel evolving universes (one being created every
time a quantum-level choice is made),
faster-than-light interconnectedness underlying
everything, nothing existing until it is observed,
these are a few of the interpretations of quantum
reality that are consistent with the experiments and
observations.
There are many ways we could go now in examining
quantum results. If conscious observation is needed
for the creation of an electron (this is one aspect of
the Copenhagen Interpretation, the most popular
version of quantum physics interpretations), then
ideas about the origin of consciousness must be
revised. If electrons in the brain create
consciousness, but electrons require consciousness to
exist, one is apparently caught in circular reasoning
at best. But for this essay, we shall not discuss
quantum biology. Another path we might go down would
be the application of quantum physics to cosmology --
either the Inflationary origin of the universe, or the
Hawking evaporation of black holes, as examples. But
our essay is not about this vast field either. Today
we will discuss the scaling of the simple double-slit
laboratory experiment to cosmic distances, what can
truly be called, "quantum astronomy."
The laboratory double-slit experiment contains a lot
of the best aspects of the weirdness of quantum
physics. It can involve various kinds of elementary
particles, but for today's discussion we will be
talking solely about light - the particle nature of
which is called the "photon." A light shining through
a small hole or slit (like in a pinhole camera)
creates a spot of light on the screen (or film, or
detector). However, light shown through two slits that
are close together creates not two spots on the
screen, but rather a series of alternating bright and
dark lines with the brightest line in the exact middle
of this interference pattern. This shows that light is
a wave since such a pattern results from the
interference of the waves coming from slit one (which
we shall call "A") with the waves coming from slit two
(which we shall call "B"). When peaks of waves from
light source A meet peaks from light source B, they
add and the bright lines are produced. Not far to the
left and right of this brightness peak, however, peaks
from A meet troughs from B (because the crests of the
light waves are no longer aligned) and a dark line is
produced. This alternates on either side until the
visibility of the lines fades out. This pattern is
simply called an "interference pattern" and Thomas
Young used this experiment to demonstrate the wave
nature of light in the early 19th Century.
However, in the year 1900 physicist Max Planck showed
that certain other effects in physics could only be
explained by light being a particle. Many experiments
followed to also show that light was indeed also a
particle (a "photon") and Albert Einstein was awarded
the Nobel Prize in physics in 1921 for his work
showing that the particle nature of light could
explain the "photoelectric effect." This was an
experiment whereby low energy (red) light, when
shining onto a photoelectric material, caused the
material to emit low energy (slow moving) electrons,
while high energy (blue) light caused the same
material to emit high energy (fast moving) electrons.
However, lots of red light only ever produced more low
energy electrons, never any high-energy electrons. In
other words, the energy could not be "saved up" but
rather must be absorbed by the electrons in the
photoelectric material individually. The conclusion
was that light came in packets, little quantities, and
behaved thus as a particle as well as a wave.
So light is both a particle and a wave. OK, kind of
unexpected (like Jell-O) but perhaps not totally
weird. But the double slit experiment had another
trick up its sleeve. One could send one photon (or
"quantum" of energy) through a single slit at a time,
with a sufficiently long interval in between, and
eventually a spot builds up that looks just like the
one produced when a very intense (many photons) light
was sent through the slit. But then a strange thing
happened. When one sends a single photon at a time
(waiting between each laser pulse, for example) toward
the screen when both slits are open, rather than two
spots eventually building up opposite the two slit
openings, what eventually builds up is the
interference pattern of alternating bright and dark
lines! Hmm... how can this be, if only one photon was
sent through the apparatus at a time?
The answer is that each individual photon must - in
order to have produced an interference pattern -- have
gone through both slits! This, the simplest of quantum
weirdness experiments, has been the basis of many of
the unintuitive interpretations of quantum physics. We
can see, perhaps, how physicists might conclude, for
example, that a particle of light is not a particle
until it is measured at the screen. It turns out that
the particle of light is rather a wave before it is
measured. But it is not a wave in the ocean-wave
sense. It is not a wave of matter but rather, it turns
out that it is apparently a wave of probability. That
is, the elementary particles making up the trees,
people, and planets -- what we see around us -- are
apparently just distributions of likelihood until they
are measured (that is, measured or observed). So much
for the Victorian view of solid matter!
The shock of matter being largely empty space may have
been extreme enough -- if an atom were the size of a
huge cathedral, then the electrons would be dust
particles floating around at all distances inside the
building, while the nucleus, or center of the atom,
would be smaller than a sugar cube. But with quantum
physics, even this tenuous result would be superseded
by the atom itself not really being anything that
exists until it is measured. One might rightly ask,
then, what does it mean to measure something? And this
brings us to the Uncertainly Principle first
discovered by Werner Heisenberg. Dr. Heisenberg wrote,
"Some physicist would prefer to come back to the idea
of an objective real world whose smallest parts exist
objectively in the same sense as stones or trees exist
independently of whether we observe them. This however
is impossible."
Perhaps that is enough to think about for now. So in
the next essay we will examine, in some detail, the
uncertainty principle as it relates to what is called
"the measurement problem" in quantum physics. We shall
find that the uncertainty principle will be the key to
performing the double-slit experiment over
astronomical distances, and demonstrating that quantum
effects are not just microscopic phenomena, but can be
extended across the cosmos.
..
.
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