Faith + Values Forum: Why not cite Bible in making laws?



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Topic: Sociology > Education
User: ""
Date: 09 May 2006 05:53:12 AM
Object: Faith + Values Forum: Why not cite Bible in making laws?
Faith + Values Forum: Why not cite Bible in making laws?
http://www.startribune.com/614/story/414428.html
Minneapolis Star Tribune (subscription) - MN,USA
Many Americans' moral basis is the Bible; where would we be if we did not
use that basis for making the laws of our land?
Rob Braun
I am amazed that a Christian minister (Faith+Values Forum, April 22)
doesn't think that the Bible should be used as a basis for civil law. If we
took his position to heart, where would we be as a society today?
Think of how many laws are on the books today that parallel biblical
teaching or were motivated by it. As an example: Shouldn't we support the
legal concept of due process under the law (which is directly derived from
the Law of Moses), or because it could be construed as a biblical teaching
should we see it as a law that is in conflict with the separation of church
and state? Should we see any lawmaker appealing to biblical passages that
tell us to take care of the poor, the orphan, the widow, the elderly and
the helpless as a potential conflict between church and state? Or the
abolitionists in the 18th and 19th centuries who based their rejection of
human slavery on passages from the Bible? Or child labor laws that were
spearheaded by churchmen spouting scriptural passages in the early 20th
century? Or the civil rights movement led by African-American ministers who
regularly quoted the scriptures and wore their faith on their shirtsleeves
when arguing that all men should be seen as equals in the eyes of God under
the law of the land and the way they are treated in society? Or laws
against human sacrifice in civil or religious functions; also a
Judeo-Christian religious concept? What about the 10 commandments --
particularly those concerning stealing, murder, bearing a false witness --
are these also potentially a conflict of church and state?
Any law that is made in a democratic process and asks for a moral decision
is, in the end, asking a citizen for the moral basis of his or her
thinking. For many Americans, that moral basis is the Bible.
This doesn't necessarily mean that we are a theocracy or should be a
theocracy, but this means that we are a nation of many kinds of people with
many ways of taking a position on what's right and what's wrong.
Undeniably, the Bible is the foundation of many Americans' ethical and
moral understanding of life. To ask people to separate their spiritual
views of life from their moral views is asking them to do the impossible.
Our democracy has always had a combination of secular morality mixed with
religious belief. It's in the language of the Constitution and the
Declaration of Independence. This is part and parcel how our society has
always been.
Consequently, with our own civic history in mind, we shouldn't deny any
citizen or group of citizens an appeal to a religious text in justifying
its view of a civil law. We may not all agree with the hermeneutics for the
passage, but we can agree that it is fair grounds for debate in the public
square.
Rob Braun is a minister at Princeton (Minn.) Community Church and a
salesman.
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.

User: "Josh Miles"

Title: Re: Faith + Values Forum: Why not cite Bible in making laws? 09 May 2006 07:01:52 AM
wrote:

Faith + Values Forum: Why not cite Bible in making laws?
http://www.startribune.com/614/story/414428.html
Minneapolis Star Tribune (subscription) - MN,USA

Many Americans' moral basis is the Bible; where would we be if we did not
use that basis for making the laws of our land?

Rob Braun
I am amazed that a Christian minister (Faith+Values Forum, April 22)
doesn't think that the Bible should be used as a basis for civil law. If we
took his position to heart, where would we be as a society today?

Think of how many laws are on the books today that parallel biblical
teaching or were motivated by it. As an example: Shouldn't we support the
legal concept of due process under the law (which is directly derived from
the Law of Moses), or because it could be construed as a biblical teaching
should we see it as a law that is in conflict with the separation of church
and state? Should we see any lawmaker appealing to biblical passages that
tell us to take care of the poor, the orphan, the widow, the elderly and
the helpless

None of which are unique to Christianity. Altruism predates Christianity.

as a potential conflict between church and state? Or the
abolitionists in the 18th and 19th centuries who based their rejection of
human slavery on passages from the Bible?

He's completely ignoring, of course, the fact that pro-slavery advocates
used the very same Bible to justify what they were doing.

Or child labor laws that were
spearheaded by churchmen spouting scriptural passages in the early 20th
century? Or the civil rights movement led by African-American ministers who
regularly quoted the scriptures and wore their faith on their shirtsleeves
when arguing that all men should be seen as equals in the eyes of God under
the law of the land and the way they are treated in society?

And yet equality has *never* existed in this country.

Or laws against human sacrifice in civil or religious functions; also a
Judeo-Christian religious concept? What about the 10 commandments --
particularly those concerning stealing, murder, bearing a false witness --
are these also potentially a conflict of church and state?

These values predate Christianity. It's in our best interest to not
steal and murder. Living in a relatively peaceful society is a survival
advantage.

Any law that is made in a democratic process and asks for a moral decision
is, in the end, asking a citizen for the moral basis of his or her
thinking. For many Americans, that moral basis is the Bible.

Democracy is not mob rule.

This doesn't necessarily mean that we are a theocracy or should be a
theocracy, but this means that we are a nation of many kinds of people with
many ways of taking a position on what's right and what's wrong.
Undeniably, the Bible is the foundation of many Americans' ethical and
moral understanding of life.

So we should ignore the rights of those who don't need a 2000 year old
collection of documents written by goat herders to tell us right from wrong?

To ask people to separate their spiritual
views of life from their moral views is asking them to do the impossible.

It's not impossible for everyone. If it's impossible for *you*, that's
your problem.

Our democracy has always had a combination of secular morality mixed with
religious belief. It's in the language of the Constitution and the
Declaration of Independence.

Ugh, another "this is a Christian nation!" argument.

This is part and parcel how our society has
always been.

Consequently, with our own civic history in mind, we shouldn't deny any
citizen or group of citizens an appeal to a religious text in justifying
its view of a civil law.

He obviously isn't aware of the Establishment Clause.
The Bible says it's okay to sell our daughters into slavery, that we can
beat our wives (lightly) if they disobey, and that we can kill our
children if they "dishonor" us. Yeah, it's a mighty fine document to
base our laws on.

We may not all agree with the hermeneutics for the
passage, but we can agree that it is fair grounds for debate in the public
square.

Rob Braun is a minister at Princeton (Minn.) Community Church and a
salesman.

And a total dumbass.
.


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