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Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>

cary@afone.as.arizona.edu (Cary Kittrell) wrote:

Define spiritual from any dictionary that doesn't refer to things
atheists deny exists.

Certainly. One of Merriam-Webster's several definitions of "spiritual"
is "of or relating to sacred matters", where one of their definitions
of "sacred" is "entitled to reverence or respect".

Did your Libertu U. coursework not require reading William James'
classic "The Varieties of Religious Experience"? If so, you shouldn't
be needing to ask these questions. If not, you should ask for
your money back.

Kenny has repeatedly shown that he knows nothing about any sort of
religious experience other than his own.

I know -- I'm starting to get the strong impression that his degree
in religion either did not include anything about other religions --
which I would find astonishing -- or else he didn't pay attention
to those bits.


(did he learn anything about the Unificiation Church, at least?
if it weren't for "Father", Ken wouldn't have that degree)

From the looks of it, he didn't learn much about anything except
theological dogma. Certainly nothing like comparative religions. Nor
do I think they read any actual literature in the entire program,
other than the Bible.


Prepare to giggle (but keep going to the end where I compare with
Notre Dame's Theology program):

http://www.liberty.edu/media/1109/07-08-ug-catalog_07-25-07.pdf

Suggested Course Sequence –
B.S. Religion
<First Year – First Semester 15 hours
<ENGL 101 Composition and Rhetoric 3
<EVAN 101 Evangelism and Christian Life 2
<SOC SCI/HISTORY 3
<CHMN 201/YOUT 201 3 (CHMN 201 = Introduction to Church Ministries)
<BIBL 105 Old Testament Survey 3
<or
<BIBL 205 Old Testament Life and Literature
<GNED 101 Contemporary Issues I 1
<(This course is designed to aid the student in the development of a
< biblical worldview. This will involve an introduction to critical
< thinking, an evaluation of contemporary moral philosophies, and an
< affirmation of absolute truth. Students will be challenged to
< integrate a biblical worldview into their Christian/Community
< Service. )


<First Year – Second Semester 15 hours
<ENGL 102 Composition and Literature 3
<COMS 101 Speech Communication 3
<MATH 3
<CCST 200/300 3
<(CCST 200 Introduction to Missions 3
<or
<CCST 300 Cultural Anthropology 3
<An exposure to world cultures and their effect on the
<communication of the Gospel worldwide. Such topics as
<the development of human relationships, the difficulties of
<adaptation, the detection of cultural values and conflicts,
<and the directives for effective ministry in a crossculturally
<environment are discussed.)
(note from lojbab - further research indicates that this is a new
course, and that CCST 300 used to be "Cross-Cultural Missions". It
sounds like they have changed the name, but the course does not in
fact teach any anthropology)
<BIBL 110 New Testament Survey 3
<or
<BIBL 210 New Testament Life and Literature
<GNED 102 Contemporary Issues II 1

<Second Year – First Semester 16 hours
<NAT SCI 3
<LAB 1
<HUMN 101/LANG 3
<(HUMN 101 Humanities in Western Culture 3 hours
<A survey course which concentrates on the development
<of Western Culture. It is an integrated study of the visual
<arts, drama and music, and the discipline of philosophy
<that permeates all the arts.)
<THEO 201 Theology Survey I 3
<SPECIALIZATION 3
<Elective 3

<Second Year – Second Semester 14 hours
<GOVT 200/PSYC 101/210/SOCI 200/201 3
<THEO 202 Theology Survey II 3
<CRST 290 History of Life 2
<BIBL 350 Inductive Bible Study 3
<Elective 3

<Third Year – First Semester 15 hours
<ENGL LIT SURVEY 3
<PHIL 201 Philosophy and Contemporary Ideas 3
<BIBL 425 Romans 3
<SPECIALIZATION 3
<Elective 3

<Third Year – Second Semester 15 hours
<NAT SCI/MATH/CMIS 201 3
<HISTORY 3
<CHHI 301/302 3
<(CHHI 301 History of the Christian Church I
<CHHI 302 History of the Christian Church II)
<Elective 6

<Fourth Year – First Semester 15 hours
<GEN ED ELEC 3
<THEO 250 Fundamental Theological Issues 3
<SPECIALIZATION 3
<Electives 6

<Fourth Year – Second Semester 14 hours
<BIBL 3
<SPECIALIZATION 6
<Electives 6

Programs of Study
<Religion Major (B.S.) – Biblical Studies Specialization
<BIBL 350 Inductive Bible Study 3
<BIBL 372 New Testament Backgrounds 3
<or
<BIBL 373 Old Testament Backgrounds 3
<BIBL 424 Acts 3
<BIBL 425 Romans 3
<BIBL Elective (O.T.) 3
<BIBL Elective (N.T.) 3
<BIBL Electives 6
<CHHI 301 History of the Christian Church I 3
<or
<CHHI 302 History of the Christian Church II 3
<CHMN 201 Introduction to Church Ministries 3
<or
<YOUT 201 Principles of Youth Ministry 3
<CCST 200 Introduction to Missions 3
<THEO 250 Fundamental Theological Issues 3
Total 36

Religion Major (B.S.) – Pastoral Leadership Specialization
<BIBL 324 Pastoral Epistles and Leadership Development 3
<BIBL 350 Inductive Bible Study 3
<BIBL 425 Romans 3
<CCST 461 The Church in Mission 3
<CHHI 301 History of the Christian Church I 3
<or
<CHHI 302 History of the Christian Church II 3
<CHMN 201 Introduction to Church Ministries 3
<GREK 301 Greek Grammar III 3
<GREK 302 Greek Syntax and Reading 3
<PLED 350 Pastoral Duties 3
<PLED 421 Homiletics I 3
<PLED 422 Homiletics II 3
<PLED 450 Organization and Administration of the Local Church 3
<PLED 499 Pastoral Ministries Internship 3
<THEO 250 Fundamental Theological Issues 3
<THEO 412 The Church: Its Mission and Hope 3
<or
<BIBL 424 Acts 3
<YOUT 477 Discipleship in Youth Ministry 3
Total 48

The one course that might offer knowledge of any alternate
perspectives doesn't really do so.
<Philosophy 201 Textbook chapters studied
< Read Ch. 1, “What is Philosophy?”
< Read Ch. 2, “A Little Logic”
< Read Ch. 3, “The First Metaphysicians”
< Read Ch. 4, “The Idea of Form”
< Read Ch. 5, “Mind and Matter”
< Read Ch. 6, “Idealism”
< Read Ch. 7, “Materialism”
< Read Ch. 10, “The Way of Experience”
< Read Ch. 11, “The Problem of Certainty”
< Read Ch. 17, “Hedonism”
< Read Ch. 18., “Utilitarianism”
< Read Ch. 19, “The Role of Duty”
< Read Ch. 16, “Challenges to Morality”
< Read Ch. 12, “God and the World”
< Read Ch. 13, “God and Reason”
< Read Ch. 15, “God and Evil”

IMNSHO, that is not a college degree, that is a Sunday school degree.
(The BS math major is a real laugh - it looks like they take more
Bible courses than math courses, and I suspect they manage to somehow
work Jesus Christ into complex analysis - take a look if you have a
strong stomach)

Just for comparison, I took a look at what University of Notre Dame
requires for its Theology major, and how they deal with other
religions:

http://theology.nd.edu/undergraduate-program/university-requirements/
These two are among the courses that one can choose for the general
education requirement in theology (1 general course, and one course
from among a large set that includes these two)
<THEO 20825/01 WORLD RELIGIONS & CATHOLICISM IN DIALOGUE
<EUGENE GORSKI 1:00-3:30 SUN
<XLIST ASIA 20825/01
<XLIST HESB 30244
<XLIST IIPS 20715/011/02
<A theological exploration of Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Judaism,
< Islam and the relationship of Christianity to those religions. The
< goal of this exploration is specifically: 1. to set forth the
< essential characteristics of the world's great religions; 2. to
< disengage the essential differences between Christianity and the
< other world religions; 3. to identify the distinctiveness of
< Catholicism within the family of Christian traditions; 4. to examine
< historically and systematically the Christian theological appraisal
< of other world religions. The ultimate goal of this course is to
< enable the students to gain a deeper understanding of Christianity by
< "passing over" into and experiencing as well as appraising the
< different major religious traditions of the world. To enhance the
< learning experience, the course will make abundant use of films. The
< students are required to attend class regularly and punctually.
< Indeed, strong emphasis is placed on the requirement to attend class
< faithfully. Students are allowed but one single absence during the
< semester.

<THEO 40244 JEWISH CHRISTIAN DIALOGUE: GERMANY AND THE HOLOCAUST MICHAEL SIGNER 2:00-3:15 TR
<XLIST THEO 60859
<
<From the second half of the nineteenth century to the rise of the Nazi
< state there was an intense exchange between Jews and Christians about
< their relationship. Tolerance and the promise of citizenship led to
< unprecedented formulations of Jewish identity. The question of
< "German-ness" and Judaism [Deutschtum und Judentum] raised issues
< about the character of German society itself. In this course we shall
< concentrate on Jewish and Christian authors who addressed these
< topics. During the final weeks of the course we shall read from
< Christian authors who wrote after the Holocaust and, in the wake of
< the II Vatican Council, brought the Catholic Church into conversation
< with the question of what elements of Christianity could address the
< horrors that the immediate past. Readings will be in English, but
< students who have the ability will be encouraged [and assisted] by
< the instructor to read select essays in German.

The theology major has fewer specific required courses, and far more
choices.

Major Requirements
Including the University requirements, the primary major consists of 31 credit hours.

First University Requirement (Foundations): THEO 10-001 or 20-001 or 20-002
Second University Requirement: between THEO 20-101 to 20-999
Christian Traditions I: THEO 40-201
Christian Traditions II: THEO 40-202
Scripture course, upper division: either THEO 40-101 or 43-101 (or 40108)
Proseminar: THEO 43-001 (1 credit)
Five Electives: 15 hours at the 40-000 level

Here are the course descriptions, many of which actually sound
interesting, even though I am neither a Catholic nor especially
interested in theology.
http://theology.nd.edu/undergraduate-program/courses/

I'll highlight a couple:
<THEO 20235 THE AFTERLIFE AND THE END OF THE WORLD
<TODD HANNEKEN 8:00-9:15 MW
<We mortals lack experience but seek knowledge of what lies beyond this
< life and this world. What will happen? When will it happen? What does
< it demand for the present? In the history of religions and within the
< Judeo-Christian tradition many answers have been given in many
< circumstances on many authorities. Tradition provides a broad
< framework within which claims compete, leaving each thinking
< recipient to form a hope for the future and a "bird's-eye" view of
< the present. This course focuses on reading primary texts (in
< translation) from the ancient world and up through contemporary
< theology and culture. We will read each text in historical context
< with a view to significance for today.

<THEO 40202/01 THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION II 10:40-11:40 MWF
<RANDALL ZACHMAN
<This course will examine in an historical and ecumenical way the
< development of the Roman Catholic, Lutheran, and Reformed traditions
< from the beginning of the sixteenth century to the middle of the
< twentieth century, with particular attention to the impact of both
< the Reformation and the Enlightenment on these Christian theological
< traditions. Evaluation will be based on five comparative papers.


<THEO 40825 GOD, PHILOSOPHY, AND POLITICS 11:45-1:00 MW
<ALASDAIR MACINTYRE
<XLIST PHIL 43426
<
<This class falls into three parts. In the first we consider the
< implications for politics of the thought of Augustine and Aquinas. In
< the second we examine the nature and justification of modern
< democratic states and a variety of problems posed for democracy,
< including those that arise from the gradual decline in voting that
< characterizes polities as various as those of Norway, Switzerland and
< the United States. In the third we ask what resources modern Catholic
< political philosophy is able to bring to the solution of those
< problems.
<
<Readings: Augustine, City of God, Book XIX; In City of God tr. R.W.
< Dyson (Cambridge University Press). Aquinas, Summa Theologiae Ia-IIae
< 94-96, IIa-Iiae 105, art. 1; In Aquinas: Political Writings tr. R.W.
< Dyson (Cambridge University Press). R. A. Dahl , On Democracy (Yale
< University Press). T. E. Patterson, The Vanishing Voter (Random
< House). J. Maritain, Man and The State (CUA Press), The Person and
< the Common Good (UND Press).
<
<Paper Topics: Can one be both an Augustinian and a Thomist in one’s
< political attitudes and activities? Does government in a democracy
< represent the will of the governed? If so, how? If not, why not? What
< is the common good? Can a democracy flourish without a concern for
< the common good? Discuss with reference to both Dahl and Maritain.

Note that several of these courses REQUIRE the student to study
comparative outlooks, so that the student understands why one
particular one is preferred by the church.

In this Catholic university, theology courses are not, as one might
expect, limited to the Bible, or to the Catholic dogma:
<THEO 30217 * READING THE QUR’AN 11:45-1:00 MW
<GABRIEL REYNOLDS
<XLISTED 30477
<To Muslims the Qur'an is the uncreated, eternal Word of God. As Jesus
< Christ is to Christians, the Qur'an to Muslims is the fullest
< expression of God's mercy and concern for humanity. It is both the
< source of complete spiritual wisdom and the constitution for a more
< perfect society. In the present course we will encounter this revered
< text with the following goals: To examine the history of the Qur'an's
< composition and reception; to explore the major themes of the Qur'an;
< to discuss new theories on and debates over the Qur'an, and, finally,
< to research the Qur'an's statements on issues of contemporary
< interest, especially sex, politics and war

One can actually get an education at Notre Dame. Not hardly at
Falwell Sunday School.

lojbab

In article <54521c9b-00cf-4785-958f-1f3d193a5727@a28g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writingken@yahoo.com> writes:

Answering for Bob, again, Cary?

Nope, doing it for my own pleasure. Claims such as yours should
be exposed to the light of day: there may be impressionable
children reading the froup.

On Nov 20, 2:54 pm,

In article <54521c9b-00cf-4785-958f-1f3d193a5...@a28g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:

On Nov 20, 11:22 am,

In article <091c281b-beca-4473-954e-6cc379527...@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> Wide Eyed in Wonder <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:

On Nov 20, 6:05 am, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:

Define spiritual from any dictionary that doesn't refer to things
atheists deny exists.

Certainly. One of Merriam-Webster's several definitions of "spiritual"
is "of or relating to sacred matters", where one of their definitions
of "sacred" is "entitled to reverence or respect".

Did your Libertu U. coursework not require reading William James'
classic "The Varieties of Religious Experience"? If so, you shouldn't
be needing to ask these questions. If not, you should ask for
your money back.

Kenny has repeatedly shown that he knows nothing about any sort of
religious experience other than his own.

lojbab

Bingo. "religious" experience. Ready to separate atheism from public
schools, now?

If atheism is not already separated from public schools, it should
be.

But I'm still waiting for my oft-requested real-world examples
of K12 teachers who stand before their classes and teach
"Children, there is no God. Yes, that will be on the midterm".

Perhaps you will provide them now?

-- cary

Answering for Bob, again, Cary?

Nope, doing it for my own pleasure. Claims such as yours should
be exposed to the light of day: there may be impressionable
children reading the froup.

That being said, since Bob and YOU
are saying that religion (even atheism) should be separated from
schools

You betcha.

and the article says the opposite, DO you admit to disagreeing
with the NEA article posted here?

Seeing as how there was no "NEA article" posted to this thread,
I'm going to have a hard time answering that.

From the other thread...

I'm starting a new thread series about religion in public schools.
For many years, I fell into the trap of letting stereotypes or history
define the agenda, relating to public schools. I bought into the lie
that liberals controlled the public schools (even up to recently).
The reality is that public schools, as well as Education unions, are
full of people that bitterly dispute with one another, regarding all
the major political issues. As part of my teacher training,
I...basically...had to side with one union or another to get classroom
insurance (a little device they use to gain members), and union
membership was very important, if one wants to get a public school job
(discrimination rampant, here). So, I chose NEA for their
conservative history (didn't even want to be called a union for many
years and, currently, contain over 1 million Republicans in their
ranks). That is not to say that I agree with everything the NEA says,
and that is the point of this post...here. NOTHING is settled. Even
NEA is at war with itself regarding religion in schools. For example,
while maintaining a defiance to the suggestion of vouchers, here is an
article at the NEA website, from an Education Week writer, suggesting
good ways to teach about religion, the Bible (with excerpts..gasp),
new testament parables, and papers on Bible figures IN A PUBLIC
SCHOOL...

http://www.nea.org/classmanagement/ifc021210.html

So, do you admit, then, to being at odds with this NEA posted
Education Week writer that tells how to teach religion in public
schools?