| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"Nomen Nescio" |
| Date: |
22 Sep 2004 03:30:02 PM |
| Object: |
Good Riddance to high school Auto Shop |
Industrial arts and vocational education auto shop, as well as other
disciplines, are fast disappearing in high schools and junior colleges.
Read the article below.
I say, good riddance to them. Why should the taxpayers pay to train Maytag=
repairmen? Let Maytag hire up people and run their own specialized schools=
to train them how to fix their broken machines. No one argues with that.
So, who can argue the extension of that line of thought when I say Venice
High School is not the place where kids are trained to fix Fords and
Chevies? If Ford needs mechanics, then Ford needs to establish their own
training facilities and not burden the taxpayers. The taxpayers'
responsibility is to provide a basic, universal education and send literate=
graduates out into the world where then can apply for jobs and then receive=
the specialized industrial training by those private companies who
manufacture their commercial products and need people to maintain them and
honor warranties.
Let me be clear about it. The burden of higher education, including
vocational education, has shifted to those applicants and their families;
it needs to be paid for by the companies who demand those skills. The
problem with students and their families spending years and tens of
thousands of dollars to prepare for entry into chosen fields is that there
is no guarantee that those skills will even be marketable. IOW, the market=
conditions may change, making such preparations futile and a waste or such
preparations may be deemed by employers to be insufficient, as in "We want
10 years of recent experience, preferrably all within the last 2 years."
The article:
Vocational Classes Fall Out of Favor
Wednesday, September 22, 2004
Lewis Chappel roams the halls of Hollywood High School as a dinosaur =96 an=
old-fashioned shop teacher in a newfangled education system.
=93I see my program dying. I see other programs dying,=94 said Chappel.
In high schools across the country vocational classes (search) =97 auto sho=
p,
wood shop, metal shop =97 are being phased out.
The push to is now on academics: The federal "No Child Left Behind" law
even holds schools accountable for academic performance.
The problem, say critics, is that 38 percent of kids don=92t go to college =
=97
and a high percentage of them may end up being mechanics, carpenters and
machinists.
=93I think the schools have an obligation to prepare them for those
opportunities as well as, where appropriate, to move on to more classic
liberal arts education,=94 said Jim Stone, director of the National Researc=
h
Center for Career and Technical Education.
But to offer hands-on training, schools need to get their hands on more
money. These days, learning to fix a car means using very expensive
diagnostic computers that schools simply can=92t afford, which is a big
reason why, over the past 15 years, California high schools have dropped
more than half of their vocational classes.
The superintendent of the California Department of Education, Jack
O'Connell, who says he supports vocational education, argues that technical=
students can also benefit from a good dose of academics.
=93We can't have students who can't solve basic algebra in these classes,
because they're not going to be able to be problem solvers when our cars
don't run,=94 said Jack O=92Connell.
As the number of vocational education classes have gone down, the high
school dropout rate across the country has gone up. Experts don't yet know
if there's a correlation, but they do know schools today are geared more
for the college-bound than the blue collar-bound.
.
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| User: "Kirk Matheson" |
|
| Title: Re: Good Riddance to high school Auto Shop |
23 Sep 2004 10:08:54 PM |
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Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message news:<f7ab138db5a00779270a3c118fe3f8c0@dizum.com>...
Industrial arts and vocational education auto shop, as well as other
disciplines, are fast disappearing in high schools and junior colleges.
Read the article below.
I say, good riddance to them. Why should the taxpayers pay to train Maytag
repairmen? Let Maytag hire up people and run their own specialized schools
to train them how to fix their broken machines. No one argues with that.
So, who can argue the extension of that line of thought when I say Venice
High School is not the place where kids are trained to fix Fords and
Chevies? If Ford needs mechanics, then Ford needs to establish their own
training facilities and not burden the taxpayers. The taxpayers'
responsibility is to provide a basic, universal education and send literate
graduates out into the world where then can apply for jobs and then receive
the specialized industrial training by those private companies who
manufacture their commercial products and need people to maintain them and
honor warranties.
Let me be clear about it. The burden of higher education, including
vocational education, has shifted to those applicants and their families;
it needs to be paid for by the companies who demand those skills. The
problem with students and their families spending years and tens of
thousands of dollars to prepare for entry into chosen fields is that there
is no guarantee that those skills will even be marketable. IOW, the market
conditions may change, making such preparations futile and a waste or such
preparations may be deemed by employers to be insufficient, as in "We want
10 years of recent experience, preferrably all within the last 2 years."
The article:
Vocational Classes Fall Out of Favor
Wednesday, September 22, 2004
Lewis Chappel roams the halls of Hollywood High School as a dinosaur an
old-fashioned shop teacher in a newfangled education system.
I see my program dying. I see other programs dying, said Chappel.
In high schools across the country vocational classes (search) auto sho
p,
wood shop, metal shop are being phased out.
The push to is now on academics: The federal "No Child Left Behind" law
even holds schools accountable for academic performance.
The problem, say critics, is that 38 percent of kids don t go to college
and a high percentage of them may end up being mechanics, carpenters and
machinists.
I think the schools have an obligation to prepare them for those
opportunities as well as, where appropriate, to move on to more classic
liberal arts education, said Jim Stone, director of the National Researc
h
Center for Career and Technical Education.
But to offer hands-on training, schools need to get their hands on more
money. These days, learning to fix a car means using very expensive
diagnostic computers that schools simply can t afford, which is a big
reason why, over the past 15 years, California high schools have dropped
more than half of their vocational classes.
The superintendent of the California Department of Education, Jack
O'Connell, who says he supports vocational education, argues that technical
students can also benefit from a good dose of academics.
We can't have students who can't solve basic algebra in these classes,
because they're not going to be able to be problem solvers when our cars
don't run, said Jack O Connell.
As the number of vocational education classes have gone down, the high
school dropout rate across the country has gone up. Experts don't yet know
if there's a correlation, but they do know schools today are geared more
for the college-bound than the blue collar-bound.
I read that same article. It looks like schools need to upgrade in
order to be able to teach the skills to repair modern day autos. My
high school did not teach auto body repair and painting, but clases
were available at other locations.
I don't know what value metal shop has anymore. Wood shop probably
still has some value for those wishing to go into carpentry or cabinet
making. I am aquainted with some very skilled woodworkers. It's just
unfortunate that the work is not steady.
-Kirk Matheson
.
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| User: "Sean Pecor" |
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| Title: Re: Good Riddance to high school Auto Shop |
29 Sep 2004 10:31:24 AM |
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Nomen Nescio wrote:
I say, good riddance to them. Why should the taxpayers pay to train
Maytag repairmen? Let Maytag hire up people and run their own specialized
schoolsto train them how to fix their broken machines.
Well, since Maytag is transitioning production to Mexico, it stands to
reason that much of Maytag repair will soon do the same. Many companies
currently ship out components to be repaired or salvaged offshore. I would
argue that the failure of the U.S. public education system to equip our
children with the proper vocational skills is a key factor in Maytag
transitioning jobs out of the USA and into Mexico. There are other factors,
but this is the key factor that is within our power to correct.
So, who can argue the extension of that line of thought when I say Venice
High School is not the place where kids are trained to fix Fords and
Chevies? If Ford needs mechanics, then Ford needs to establish their own
training facilities and not burden the taxpayers.
Without a proper foundation, your house will fall to ruin. High School
provides a foundation. It doesn't build the whole damn house. If someone is
interested in moving into the service field then they should be able to
begin training in High School. Someone moving into mathematics, or computer
programming, have generally enjoyed the benefit of training from a very
young age. You're saying that the blue collar workers shouldn't have that
same luxury. I think you're wrong.
The taxpayers' responsibility is to provide a basic, universal education
and send literate graduates out into the world where then can apply for
jobs and then receive the specialized industrial training by those private
companies who manufacture their commercial products and need people to
maintain them and honor warranties.
Well, that is YOUR version of OUR collective responsibility. My version is
that it is the taxpayers' responsibility to build good citizens. It's hard
to be a good citizen if your high school drops art, drops vocational
technology, drops dance, drops music, and so on. All hell would break loose
if a high school dropped football from the program. But vocational
technology? Nah, just cut that. You don't need to understand how that
pigskin is manufactured, or how that pigskin is marketed, you just need to
be able to catch it, right?
Let me be clear about it. The burden of higher education, including
vocational education, has shifted to those applicants and their families;
it needs to be paid for by the companies who demand those skills.
That does not follow market patterns. If country or region A follows your
methodology, while country or region B begins training kids in secondary
school, then A will simply not remain competitive.
Honestly, look at sports. The top athletes all began their training at a
very young age. The top musicians did the same. Step outside of sports and
look at the people who are top in their field. Most share one thing in
common. They were able to begin training VERY EARLY. If you wait until
you're 18 to begin your formal vocational training then you're not going to
be competitive.
The problem with students and their families spending years and tens of
thousands of dollars to prepare for entry into chosen fields is that there
is no guarantee that those skills will even be marketable.
So, your suggestion is to shift the responsibility to industry? Yeah, great
idea. Shift that responsibility to industry and then watch product prices
grow. You spend less on higher education and more for your damn car, your
house, your groceries. Oh, and in thirty years there are alot fewer blue
collar jobs for our mostly blue collar population, because Mexico and
Canada saw the writing on the wall and invested in their vocational
education while we were busy pumping out jacks of no trades who are masters
of nothing.
I simply have never heard a logical argument that would justify moving
education and training out of the public and higher level education system
and into private industry.
In my experience, it is the parents and grandparents of school age children
who fight for the proper level of support for their communities.... And it
is the stingy folks without kids who ***** about every budget increase
because they don't see how it benefits them now or in the future. It seems
they forget that our youth today will be running the show in twenty years.
So we better make damn sure they are given everything they need to learn
and succeed or we'll be paying a hefty price in our golden years for our
neglect.
Sean.
--
President and Mad Scientist
Digital Spinner, Inc.
http://www.marketingtool.com
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Good Riddance to high school Auto Shop |
29 Sep 2004 12:39:05 PM |
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Sean Pecor <sean@digitalspinner.com> wrote:
I simply have never heard a logical argument that would justify moving
education and training out of the public and higher level education system
and into private industry.
In my experience, it is the parents and grandparents of school age children
who fight for the proper level of support for their communities.... And it
is the stingy folks without kids who ***** about every budget increase
because they don't see how it benefits them now or in the future.
More recently, it has been the ideologues who believe that the private
marketplace will meet all needs if government gets entirely out of the
picture (and who therefore want to minimize government at all cost).
The holes in their ideology are legion, but they do not see them
because their basic assumptions are that the world works according to
their economic theory pipe dream.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "mic canic" |
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| Title: Re: Good Riddance to high school Auto Shop |
23 Sep 2004 07:42:18 PM |
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we need to allow more such classes it's getting so people can't even tie their
own shoes let alone know how to use a screw driver and you might wonder why we
are not a true super power anymore
Nomen Nescio wrote:
Industrial arts and vocational education auto shop, as well as other
disciplines, are fast disappearing in high schools and junior colleges.
Read the article below.
I say, good riddance to them. Why should the taxpayers pay to train Maytag
repairmen? Let Maytag hire up people and run their own specialized schools
to train them how to fix their broken machines. No one argues with that.
So, who can argue the extension of that line of thought when I say Venice
High School is not the place where kids are trained to fix Fords and
Chevies? If Ford needs mechanics, then Ford needs to establish their own
training facilities and not burden the taxpayers. The taxpayers'
responsibility is to provide a basic, universal education and send literate
graduates out into the world where then can apply for jobs and then receive
the specialized industrial training by those private companies who
manufacture their commercial products and need people to maintain them and
honor warranties.
Let me be clear about it. The burden of higher education, including
vocational education, has shifted to those applicants and their families;
it needs to be paid for by the companies who demand those skills. The
problem with students and their families spending years and tens of
thousands of dollars to prepare for entry into chosen fields is that there
is no guarantee that those skills will even be marketable. IOW, the market
conditions may change, making such preparations futile and a waste or such
preparations may be deemed by employers to be insufficient, as in "We want
10 years of recent experience, preferrably all within the last 2 years."
The article:
Vocational Classes Fall Out of Favor
Wednesday, September 22, 2004
Lewis Chappel roams the halls of Hollywood High School as a dinosaur – an
old-fashioned shop teacher in a newfangled education system.
“I see my program dying. I see other programs dying,” said Chappel.
In high schools across the country vocational classes (search) — auto shop,
wood shop, metal shop — are being phased out.
The push to is now on academics: The federal "No Child Left Behind" law
even holds schools accountable for academic performance.
The problem, say critics, is that 38 percent of kids don’t go to college —
and a high percentage of them may end up being mechanics, carpenters and
machinists.
“I think the schools have an obligation to prepare them for those
opportunities as well as, where appropriate, to move on to more classic
liberal arts education,” said Jim Stone, director of the National Research
Center for Career and Technical Education.
But to offer hands-on training, schools need to get their hands on more
money. These days, learning to fix a car means using very expensive
diagnostic computers that schools simply can’t afford, which is a big
reason why, over the past 15 years, California high schools have dropped
more than half of their vocational classes.
The superintendent of the California Department of Education, Jack
O'Connell, who says he supports vocational education, argues that technical
students can also benefit from a good dose of academics.
“We can't have students who can't solve basic algebra in these classes,
because they're not going to be able to be problem solvers when our cars
don't run,” said Jack O’Connell.
As the number of vocational education classes have gone down, the high
school dropout rate across the country has gone up. Experts don't yet know
if there's a correlation, but they do know schools today are geared more
for the college-bound than the blue collar-bound.
.
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