| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
11 May 2006 01:19:19 PM |
| Object: |
Gray Shockley Help |
A discussion has broken out at
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
along the following lines.
( While I spent 9 years in the Navy May 1961 to Aug 1970 I did not spend
20 years, was not in the Army and so am not qualified to speak on at least
part of what the following discussion is about
I would hope that you would either join us there and add your expertise and
thoughts to this discussion or post here that which i can add to it in your
name
If you join you can always remove yourself after this discussion is over if
you want )
ORIGINAL MESSAGE
New member clark2u2 writes:
clark2u2 May 7, 2006
I am interested in protecting the fragile heritage of freedom that our
founding fathers have entrusted in us. I am concerned about the
present day assault on Christianity and limited government.
A REPLY TO ORIGINAL MESSAGE
From: john keeber
Date: Mon May 8, 2006 10:04 am
Subject: Re: [HRSepCnS] New Member clark2u2
What "assault on Christianity..."??
We have a 2 Party system of government in which both parties are beholden
to those whom identify as "Fundamentalist Christian".
What that means is:
1) Non-Christians are Discriminated against, and we may "soon" see a more
Blatant attempt to control those of us who are not Christian.
*This is already taking place in several areas overseen by the Federal
Government; During my 26+ years in the Army, I witnessed a growing level
of discrimination against Non-Christians, by all levels of personnel, from
Privets the highest levels of Command. As a Non-Christian (no. I have
never been "Blatant", I just did not believe) on the staff of a Division
Commander, I was the recipient of assaults on my beliefs, daily. These
were ongoing and supported by the 3star General I worked for*
2) Institutional Discrimination based upon the Christian interpretation of
the Bible against members of minority communities, i.e. the G/L/B/T/Q
community.
3) Christians demanding that their rights as Christians are "under
attack".
This is bunk.
John Keeber
SGT, U.S. Army
Retired
CLARK2U2 REPLY TO JOHN
From: "clark2u2"
Date: Thu May 11, 2006 3:57 am
Subject: Re: New Member clark2u2
From: "clark2u2" <>
Date: Thu May 11, 2006 3:57 am
Subject: Re: New Member clark2u2
I also served for more than 20 years in the United States Army,1968 to
1989. I know very well that your experiences in the Army of being
harassed over your beliefs concerning religion should never have
happened.
Do you deny that Christian morality is being attacked by organizations
such as the ACLU?
We are a Christian nation, however, most Christian Americans do not want
a theocratic government. True Christianity, by its nature, can only be
tolerant of other peoples religious beliefs. It is the radical left wing
secular atheists who wish to impose their religion of amorality on the
majority. American Christians have one main belief in common, that
humans cannot rationalize any ethical standard as having ultimate
validity unless it gains moral force and authority by appeal to some
principle higher than that of the state or the individual. "In God We
Trust" is the authority base valid for all Americas and is independent
of culture and race, and in conflict with only a small number of
religions.
My main concern is that attacks on Christianity infringe upon our First
Amendment freedom of religion clauses which are designed to safeguard
our religious liberties not deny them. Displaying Christian symbols in a
public place or acknowledging our "One Nation Under God" or
"In God We Trust" in a government context isn't even close to
the establishment of a religion.
JOHN'S REPLY TO CLARK 2U2
From: john keeber
Date: Thu May 11, 2006 10:26 am
OK;
First, I served from 1976 thru 2002 and by the time I left the military,
attacks on Non-Christians were not just tolerated, but encouraged. "should
not have happened.."?
It is POLICY, and it is a policy that has come into effect thru the
influence of your "christian minority"!
Second, No Christian Morality is NOT "being attacked by organizations such
as the ACLU".
The ACLU is attempting to protect those of us who have a Different
Religious belief system from the Tyranny of your Religious Majority, in a
country where Iand my beliefs are PROTECTED by the laws of this country.
By claiming that we who believe differently are attacking your beliefs, you
create a situation of Intolerance for other religions. The very foundation
uponwhich you build your arguments about attacked, are both incorrect and
missguided.
All I want to see is your faith
A) Not propagated in Public Schools
If you wish your children to have a "Faith Based Education" then put
them inPrivate School.
B) Not Preached from the Courts
This is a nation of many faiths, there is no room for those paid by
the public spouting the dogma of one faith.
C) Religion/Faith is a personal and private issue; there is no place in
public life for Religion.
That goes for your bumper too.
When you advertise your faith, you are attacking mine. I am offended by
your blatant and continued assaults on the Faiths of the rest of the
population in this nation.
No sir, we are NOT a "Christian Nation". Never was, should never be.
What we are is a Democratic Nation. That means that we elect our leaders,
they are not appointed by the Church.
You make the comment that "True Christianity, by its nature, can only be
tolerant..."
Yes, the Bible teaches Tolerance; your leaders don't.
When the Church learns to read and follow the teachings of the Faiths
Namesake, then you will have gained something or the true nature of Faith.
*By the Way, the statement "In God We Trust" was added to our
currency on the 1950's. It was never a position of our founding
Fathers* From my point of view, the assault on faith is Not coming from
"the Radical Left wing secular atheists", it is coming from Christianity.
It appears to me that o one of the things that need to be addressed, and
willnot be, is that we both see our Faith as being attacked by the other.
Therefore, in order to end these Assaults, we need to understand why we
bothfeel the same.
From my personal perspective, Christians are Beating Non-Christians over
thehead with Christianity. How? Simple; how many times have you called
someone, ATWORK and left a message on their VM, where the out going message
ends withsomething like"..God Bless you.." or something similar?
Or, seen on the car ahead on the road, "God is my Co-pilot", "My boss is a
Jewish Carpenter", "Pray the Rosary", etc, etc, etc......
Or seen on the on the Side of the road a Billboard advertising something
like "God will Judge you, are your living a Christian Life", or my personal
favorite,
"GOD HATES FAGS"
That last is truly a loving message!
No the assault on Freedom of Religion is not from the radical left wing
secularatheists, it is from the Church and its leadership.
Christianity's attacks on my religion is an infringement on my First
Amendmentright to religious Freedom.
Not the other way around.
You also say that "Displaying Christian symbols in a public place .... "
If the display is publicly viable on private property, then there is
nothing Legally wrong, but when the Display is on PUBLIC land, that is land
that we allpay for, and have a say in its use, then it is in fact a
violation of the laws and the Constitution.
Also, "One Nation Under God" and "In God We Trust" are in fact, to those of
us who do not share your vision of a Christian Nation, the Government
attempting to establish a national religion.
John Keeber
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
| User: "Gray Shockley" |
|
| Title: Re: Gray Shockley Help |
11 May 2006 11:10:09 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 11 May 2006 13:19:19 -0500, wrote
(in article <o0076213hfq5lloeuabcffkt574vlbsq5b@4ax.com>):
A discussion has broken out at
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
along the following lines.
( While I spent 9 years in the Navy May 1961 to Aug 1970 I did not spend
20 years, was not in the Army and so am not qualified to speak on at least
part of what the following discussion is about
I would hope that you would either join us there and add your expertise and
thoughts to this discussion or post here that which i can add to it in your
name
Since I don't make time to read about half the messages on this forum, I
certainly should join another forum <grin>.
See ya over there.
-------------------------------------------------
As Eugene Robinson said in the_Washington Post_ today:
At least now we know that the Bush
administration's name for spying on
Americans without first seeking court
approval -- the "terrorist surveillance
program" -- isn't an exercise in
Orwellian doublespeak after all. It's
just a bald-faced lie."
-------------------------------------------------
RICO Act: Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act
Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1961-1968
Indicted and unindicted apparent co-conspirators:
President George Walker Bush
Vice-President Richard Bruce Cheney
Attorney General Alberto R Gonzales
(refuses to release his middle name)
Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld
(former) Attorney General John "nekked
broads with titties" Ashcroft
Quite possibly a few select general and
flag officers currently serving on active
duty. [Michael Hayden + more?]
As Chuck pointed out, "These are the worst of times, the best of times."
Here's to the good guys!
I'm buying" {one each only}
Gray Shockley
----------------------
Vicksburg, MS US
If you join you can always remove yourself after this discussion is over if
you want )
ORIGINAL MESSAGE
New member clark2u2 writes:
clark2u2 May 7, 2006
I am interested in protecting the fragile heritage of freedom that our
founding fathers have entrusted in us. I am concerned about the
present day assault on Christianity and limited government.
A REPLY TO ORIGINAL MESSAGE
From: john keeber
Date: Mon May 8, 2006 10:04 am
Subject: Re: [HRSepCnS] New Member clark2u2
What "assault on Christianity..."??
We have a 2 Party system of government in which both parties are beholden
to those whom identify as "Fundamentalist Christian".
What that means is:
1) Non-Christians are Discriminated against, and we may "soon" see a more
Blatant attempt to control those of us who are not Christian.
*This is already taking place in several areas overseen by the Federal
Government; During my 26+ years in the Army, I witnessed a growing level
of discrimination against Non-Christians, by all levels of personnel, from
Privets the highest levels of Command. As a Non-Christian (no. I have
never been "Blatant", I just did not believe) on the staff of a Division
Commander, I was the recipient of assaults on my beliefs, daily. These
were ongoing and supported by the 3star General I worked for*
2) Institutional Discrimination based upon the Christian interpretation of
the Bible against members of minority communities, i.e. the G/L/B/T/Q
community.
3) Christians demanding that their rights as Christians are "under
attack".
This is bunk.
John Keeber
SGT, U.S. Army
Retired
CLARK2U2 REPLY TO JOHN
From: "clark2u2"
Date: Thu May 11, 2006 3:57 am
Subject: Re: New Member clark2u2
From: "clark2u2" <>
Date: Thu May 11, 2006 3:57 am
Subject: Re: New Member clark2u2
I also served for more than 20 years in the United States Army,1968 to
1989. I know very well that your experiences in the Army of being
harassed over your beliefs concerning religion should never have
happened.
Do you deny that Christian morality is being attacked by organizations
such as the ACLU?
We are a Christian nation, however, most Christian Americans do not want
a theocratic government. True Christianity, by its nature, can only be
tolerant of other peoples religious beliefs. It is the radical left wing
secular atheists who wish to impose their religion of amorality on the
majority. American Christians have one main belief in common, that
humans cannot rationalize any ethical standard as having ultimate
validity unless it gains moral force and authority by appeal to some
principle higher than that of the state or the individual. "In God We
Trust" is the authority base valid for all Americas and is independent
of culture and race, and in conflict with only a small number of
religions.
My main concern is that attacks on Christianity infringe upon our First
Amendment freedom of religion clauses which are designed to safeguard
our religious liberties not deny them. Displaying Christian symbols in a
public place or acknowledging our "One Nation Under God" or
"In God We Trust" in a government context isn't even close to
the establishment of a religion.
JOHN'S REPLY TO CLARK 2U2
From: john keeber
Date: Thu May 11, 2006 10:26 am
OK;
First, I served from 1976 thru 2002 and by the time I left the military,
attacks on Non-Christians were not just tolerated, but encouraged. "should
not have happened.."?
It is POLICY, and it is a policy that has come into effect thru the
influence of your "christian minority"!
Second, No Christian Morality is NOT "being attacked by organizations such
as the ACLU".
The ACLU is attempting to protect those of us who have a Different
Religious belief system from the Tyranny of your Religious Majority, in a
country where Iand my beliefs are PROTECTED by the laws of this country.
By claiming that we who believe differently are attacking your beliefs, you
create a situation of Intolerance for other religions. The very foundation
uponwhich you build your arguments about attacked, are both incorrect and
missguided.
All I want to see is your faith
A) Not propagated in Public Schools
If you wish your children to have a "Faith Based Education" then put
them inPrivate School.
B) Not Preached from the Courts
This is a nation of many faiths, there is no room for those paid by
the public spouting the dogma of one faith.
C) Religion/Faith is a personal and private issue; there is no place in
public life for Religion.
That goes for your bumper too.
When you advertise your faith, you are attacking mine. I am offended by
your blatant and continued assaults on the Faiths of the rest of the
population in this nation.
No sir, we are NOT a "Christian Nation". Never was, should never be.
What we are is a Democratic Nation. That means that we elect our leaders,
they are not appointed by the Church.
You make the comment that "True Christianity, by its nature, can only be
tolerant..."
Yes, the Bible teaches Tolerance; your leaders don't.
When the Church learns to read and follow the teachings of the Faiths
Namesake, then you will have gained something or the true nature of Faith.
*By the Way, the statement "In God We Trust" was added to our
currency on the 1950's. It was never a position of our founding
Fathers* From my point of view, the assault on faith is Not coming from
"the Radical Left wing secular atheists", it is coming from Christianity.
It appears to me that o one of the things that need to be addressed, and
willnot be, is that we both see our Faith as being attacked by the other.
Therefore, in order to end these Assaults, we need to understand why we
bothfeel the same.
From my personal perspective, Christians are Beating Non-Christians over
thehead with Christianity. How? Simple; how many times have you called
someone, ATWORK and left a message on their VM, where the out going message
ends withsomething like"..God Bless you.." or something similar?
Or, seen on the car ahead on the road, "God is my Co-pilot", "My boss is a
Jewish Carpenter", "Pray the Rosary", etc, etc, etc......
Or seen on the on the Side of the road a Billboard advertising something
like "God will Judge you, are your living a Christian Life", or my personal
favorite,
"GOD HATES FAGS"
That last is truly a loving message!
No the assault on Freedom of Religion is not from the radical left wing
secularatheists, it is from the Church and its leadership.
Christianity's attacks on my religion is an infringement on my First
Amendmentright to religious Freedom.
Not the other way around.
You also say that "Displaying Christian symbols in a public place .... "
If the display is publicly viable on private property, then there is
nothing Legally wrong, but when the Display is on PUBLIC land, that is land
that we allpay for, and have a say in its use, then it is in fact a
violation of the laws and the Constitution.
Also, "One Nation Under God" and "In God We Trust" are in fact, to those of
us who do not share your vision of a Christian Nation, the Government
attempting to establish a national religion.
John Keeber
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Gray Shockley Help |
13 May 2006 09:50:19 AM |
|
|
Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com> wrote:
:|On Thu, 11 May 2006 13:19:19 -0500, wrote
:|(in article <o0076213hfq5lloeuabcffkt574vlbsq5b@4ax.com>):
:|
:|> A discussion has broken out at
:|>
:|> HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
:|> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
:|>
:|> along the following lines.
:|>
:|> ( While I spent 9 years in the Navy May 1961 to Aug 1970 I did not spend
:|> 20 years, was not in the Army and so am not qualified to speak on at least
:|> part of what the following discussion is about
:|>
:|> I would hope that you would either join us there and add your expertise and
:|> thoughts to this discussion or post here that which i can add to it in your
:|> name
:|
:|Since I don't make time to read about half the messages on this forum, I
:|certainly should join another forum <grin>.
:|
:|See ya over there.
Oh ok I will send u a invite then, or are you already there?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Gray Shockley" |
|
| Title: Re: Gray Shockley Help |
13 May 2006 11:12:33 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 13 May 2006 09:50:19 -0500, wrote
(in article <fgsb621vedts5q2cu5vgboijbeaqsuhoch@4ax.com>):
Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2006 13:19:19 -0500, wrote
(in article <o0076213hfq5lloeuabcffkt574vlbsq5b@4ax.com>):
A discussion has broken out at
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
along the following lines.
( While I spent 9 years in the Navy May 1961 to Aug 1970 I did not
spend
20 years, was not in the Army and so am not qualified to speak on at
least
part of what the following discussion is about
I would hope that you would either join us there and add your expertise
and
thoughts to this discussion or post here that which i can add to it in
your
name
Since I don't make time to read about half the messages on this forum, I
certainly should join another forum <grin>.
See ya over there.
Oh ok I will send u a invite then, or are you already there?
need invite/gray
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Gray Shockley Help |
18 May 2006 03:22:23 PM |
|
|
Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com> wrote:
:|On Sat, 13 May 2006 09:50:19 -0500, wrote
:|(in article <fgsb621vedts5q2cu5vgboijbeaqsuhoch@4ax.com>):
:|
:|> Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com> wrote:
:|>
:|>>>> On Thu, 11 May 2006 13:19:19 -0500, wrote
:|>>>> (in article <o0076213hfq5lloeuabcffkt574vlbsq5b@4ax.com>):
:|>>>>
:|>>>>> A discussion has broken out at
:|>>>>>
:|>>>>> HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
:|>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
:|>>>>>
:|>>>>> along the following lines.
:|>>>>>
:|>>>>> ( While I spent 9 years in the Navy May 1961 to Aug 1970 I did not
:|>>>>> spend
:|>>>>> 20 years, was not in the Army and so am not qualified to speak on at
:|>>>>> least
:|>>>>> part of what the following discussion is about
:|>>>>>
:|>>>>> I would hope that you would either join us there and add your expertise
:|>>>>> and
:|>>>>> thoughts to this discussion or post here that which i can add to it in
:|>>>>> your
:|>>>>> name
:|>>>>
:|>>>> Since I don't make time to read about half the messages on this forum, I
:|>>>> certainly should join another forum <grin>.
:|>>>>
:|>>>> See ya over there.
:|>
:|> Oh ok I will send u a invite then, or are you already there?
:|
:|need invite/gray
You are already a member u joined several days ago
:|
.
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