Sociology > Education > "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it?
| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
14 Jul 2005 08:20:53 AM |
| Object: |
"Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
Some recents posts found on
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
From Legacy Of Freedom
http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5456&abbr=cs_&security=1001&new\s_iv_ctrl=1059
by Rob Boston, Church and State, January, 2003. "Jefferson, Madison
And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep
It?"
What the Religious Right doesn't tell people, and what,
tragically, many Americans apparently don't know, is that when it
comes to determining what the laws of the United States mean, the only
document that matters is the Constitution. The Constitution, a
completely secular document, contains no references to God, Jesus or
Christianity. It says absolutely nothing about the United States being
officially Christian. The Religious Right's constant appeals to
documents like the Declaration of Independence, which contains a
deistic reference to "the Creator," cloud the issue and make some
people believe their rights spring from these other documents.
*************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and the discussion group for the above site listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
For people in Hampton Roads you are also invited to join
NORFOLK/VA. B. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEETUP GROUP
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
Virginia Chapter Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://au-va.org/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
****************************************************************
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
26 Jul 2005 04:23:52 PM |
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wrote:
Some recents posts found on
HRSepCnS =B7 Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
From Legacy Of Freedom
http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=3DNewsArticle&id=3D5456&abbr=3Dcs_&secu=
rity=3D1001&new\s_iv_ctrl=3D1059
by Rob Boston, Church and State, January, 2003. "Jefferson, Madison
And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep
It?"
What the Religious Right doesn't tell people, and what,
tragically, many Amer=ADicans apparently don't know, is that when it
comes to determining what the laws of the United States mean, the only
document that matters is the Consti=ADtution. The Constitution, a
completely secular document, contains no references to God, Jesus or
Christianity. It says absolutely nothing about the United States being
officially Christian. The Religious Right's constant appeals to
documents like the Declaration of Independence, which contains a
deistic reference to "the Creator," cloud the issue and make some
people believe their rights spring from these other documents.
So how did Americans get the idea of one woman for one man
in their family Law?
*************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and the discussion group for the above site listed below]
HRSepCnS =B7 Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
For people in Hampton Roads you are also invited to join
NORFOLK/VA. B. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEETUP GROUP
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
Virginia Chapter Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://au-va.org/
***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why =
"a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisne=
r,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
=20
****************************************************************
.
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| User: "J.C." |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
26 Jul 2005 04:39:14 PM |
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<Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in message
news:1122413032.518035.279980@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
Some recents posts found on
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
From Legacy Of Freedom
http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5456&abbr=cs_&security=1001
&new\s_iv_ctrl=1059
by Rob Boston, Church and State, January, 2003. "Jefferson, Madison
And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep
It?"
What the Religious Right doesn't tell people, and what,
tragically, many Americans apparently don't know, is that when it
comes to determining what the laws of the United States mean, the only
document that matters is the Constitution. The Constitution, a
completely secular document, contains no references to God, Jesus or
Christianity. It says absolutely nothing about the United States being
officially Christian. The Religious Right's constant appeals to
documents like the Declaration of Independence, which contains a
deistic reference to "the Creator," cloud the issue and make some
people believe their rights spring from these other documents.
So how did Americans get the idea of one woman for one man
in their family Law?
That's the part of evolution the un-religious doesn't want to talk about.
--
Make it just one gnat to email.
J.C.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
26 Jul 2005 07:29:43 PM |
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In alt.atheism On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:39:14 GMT, "J.C."
<gnatsflat@hotmail.com> let us all know that:
<Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in message
news:1122413032.518035.279980@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
Some recents posts found on
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
From Legacy Of Freedom
http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5456&abbr=cs_&security=1001
&new\s_iv_ctrl=1059
by Rob Boston, Church and State, January, 2003. "Jefferson, Madison
And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep
It?"
What the Religious Right doesn't tell people, and what,
tragically, many Americans apparently don't know, is that when it
comes to determining what the laws of the United States mean, the only
document that matters is the Constitution. The Constitution, a
completely secular document, contains no references to God, Jesus or
Christianity. It says absolutely nothing about the United States being
officially Christian. The Religious Right's constant appeals to
documents like the Declaration of Independence, which contains a
deistic reference to "the Creator," cloud the issue and make some
people believe their rights spring from these other documents.
So how did Americans get the idea of one woman for one man
in their family Law?
Tradition.
Don
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
26 Jul 2005 09:26:11 PM |
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Don Kresch <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
So how did Americans get the idea of one woman for one man
in their family Law?
Tradition.
More specifically English Common Law, which was the default legal
system until/unless laws were specifically made up.
Certainly not from the Bible, where King Solomon had a raft of wives.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
27 Jul 2005 07:53:06 AM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Certainly not from the Bible, where King Solomon had a raft of wives.
And that was corrected by the one who had authority
to do so, I mean Jesus the Messiah when he made
it mandatory for us to return to God original
intent when creating Adam and Eve.
God did not create thousand Eves for Adam.
How you guy approach the Bible?
What is your reading?
It seems to me that you all miss the points altogether.
Yet we are told that you guys are the brightest specy
on earth.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
27 Jul 2005 08:21:39 AM |
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wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Certainly not from the Bible, where King Solomon had a raft of wives.
And that was corrected by the one who had authority to do so,
Nope.
I mean Jesus the Messiah when he made
it mandatory for us to return to God original
intent when creating Adam and Eve.
He did no such thing.
God did not create thousand Eves for Adam.
The Bible is silent on that matter.
Who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry? Did they commit incest? If
they didn't, then Adam and Eve were not only two people that were
created, in which case we cannot say how many were created.
How you guy approach the Bible?
In my case, I read it. As an ordinary book, written by ordinary
people, of multiple cultures, speaking multiple languages, over many
centuries. A good book - actually several books - but still only a
work of men. Unlike many Christians, I worship God, and not a
collection of books about God.
But there are many in this country who don't read the Bible, and many
who don't believe it. And it is their country as well as yours.
What is your reading?
It seems to me that you all miss the points altogether.
Or maybe you do.
Yet we are told that you guys are the brightest specy
on earth.
Which means exactly nothing. No other species writes books, much less
reads them. And our species didn't write them until the last 4000
years of its existence.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
27 Jul 2005 09:19:33 AM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Certainly not from the Bible, where King Solomon had a raft of wives.
And that was corrected by the one who had authority to do so,
Nope.
I mean Jesus the Messiah when he made
it mandatory for us to return to God original
intent when creating Adam and Eve.
He did no such thing.
God did not create thousand Eves for Adam.
The Bible is silent on that matter.
That is what you thought.
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Without a State Religion |
27 Jul 2005 04:49:24 PM |
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On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:19:33 -0500, wrote
(in article
<1122473973.035801.285110@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>):
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Certainly not from the Bible, where King Solomon had a raft of wives.
And that was corrected by the one who had authority to do so,
Nope.
I mean Jesus the Messiah when he made
it mandatory for us to return to God original
intent when creating Adam and Eve.
He did no such thing.
God did not create thousand Eves for Adam.
The Bible is silent on that matter.
That is what you thought.
Just out of curiosity, what are
the last thirty or forty
Christ-like things you have done?
Okay, twenty or so.
What were the last five?
In your incredible arrogance you certainly
are living a Falwell-like existence.
If pride is a sin and goes before a fall,
you're going to be going down rsn.
Gray Shockley
--------------------------
"Swinehood hath no remedy." - Sidney Lanier
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
27 Jul 2005 09:23:04 AM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Certainly not from the Bible, where King Solomon had a raft of wives.
And that was corrected by the one who had authority to do so,
Nope.
I mean Jesus the Messiah when he made
it mandatory for us to return to God original
intent when creating Adam and Eve.
He did no such thing.
God did not create thousand Eves for Adam.
The Bible is silent on that matter.
Who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry? Did they commit incest? If
they didn't, then Adam and Eve were not only two people that were
created, in which case we cannot say how many were created.
How you guy approach the Bible?
In my case, I read it. As an ordinary book, written by ordinary
people, of multiple cultures, speaking multiple languages, over many
centuries. A good book - actually several books - but still only a
work of men. Unlike many Christians, I worship God, and not a
collection of books about God.
I see. No small wonder you are divorced from reality
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
27 Jul 2005 04:55:52 PM |
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On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:23:04 -0500, wrote
(in article
<1122474184.918902.184630@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>):
In my case, I read it. As an ordinary book, written by ordinary
people, of multiple cultures, speaking multiple languages, over many
centuries. A good book - actually several books - but still only a
work of men. Unlike many Christians, I worship God, and not a
collection of books about God.
I see. No small wonder you are divorced from reality
You're not superior;
that's just another
symptom of your disease(s).
Gray Shockley
-------------------------------------------------
One man's religion is another man's belly laugh.
- Jubal Harshaw (Channeled through RAH)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
28 Jul 2005 09:16:57 AM |
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Gray Shockley wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:23:04 -0500, wrote
(in article
<1122474184.918902.184630@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>):
In my case, I read it. As an ordinary book, written by ordinary
people, of multiple cultures, speaking multiple languages, over many
centuries. A good book - actually several books - but still only a
work of men. Unlike many Christians, I worship God, and not a
collection of books about God.
I see. No small wonder you are divorced from reality
You're not superior;
that's just another
symptom of your disease(s).
I don't crave for superiority. It is
the main symptom of atheists disease.
Gray Shockley
-------------------------------------------------
One man's religion is another man's belly laugh.
- Jubal Harshaw (Channeled through RAH)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
27 Jul 2005 09:20:49 AM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Certainly not from the Bible, where King Solomon had a raft of wives.
And that was corrected by the one who had authority to do so,
Nope.
I mean Jesus the Messiah when he made
it mandatory for us to return to God original
intent when creating Adam and Eve.
He did no such thing.
God did not create thousand Eves for Adam.
The Bible is silent on that matter.
Who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry? Did they commit incest? If
they didn't, then Adam and Eve were not only two people that were
created, in which case we cannot say how many were created.
This is irrelevant to the issue at hands
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
27 Jul 2005 04:26:57 PM |
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wrote:
God did not create thousand Eves for Adam.
The Bible is silent on that matter.
Who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry? Did they commit incest? If
they didn't, then Adam and Eve were not only two people that were
created, in which case we cannot say how many were created.
This is irrelevant to the issue at hands
It is quite relevant.
If the Bible were a complete answer to everything, then you could find
the answer to any question in it. You can't.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
28 Jul 2005 08:17:41 AM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
God did not create thousand Eves for Adam.
The Bible is silent on that matter.
Who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry? Did they commit incest? If
they didn't, then Adam and Eve were not only two people that were
created, in which case we cannot say how many were created.
This is irrelevant to the issue at hands
It is quite relevant.
If the Bible were a complete answer to everything, then you could find
the answer to any question in it. You can't.
It is about what Jesus said about One woman for one man.
Your contention is that there is no such thing by Jesus
in the Scriptures. We are not discussing Seth or Abel.
Don't be trying to dodge the issue.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
28 Jul 2005 03:04:15 PM |
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wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
wrote:
God did not create thousand Eves for Adam.
The Bible is silent on that matter.
Who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry? Did they commit incest? If
they didn't, then Adam and Eve were not only two people that were
created, in which case we cannot say how many were created.
This is irrelevant to the issue at hands
It is quite relevant.
If the Bible were a complete answer to everything, then you could find
the answer to any question in it. You can't.
It is about what Jesus said about One woman for one man.
Your contention is that there is no such thing by Jesus
in the Scriptures. We are not discussing Seth or Abel.
Don't be trying to dodge the issue.
You have no issue. You can't even properly support your random claims
with actual citations (not that your citations will have anything to
do with reality, anyway).
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
28 Jul 2005 05:02:24 PM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
God did not create thousand Eves for Adam.
The Bible is silent on that matter.
Who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry? Did they commit incest? If
they didn't, then Adam and Eve were not only two people that were
created, in which case we cannot say how many were created.
This is irrelevant to the issue at hands
It is quite relevant.
If the Bible were a complete answer to everything, then you could find
the answer to any question in it. You can't.
It is about what Jesus said about One woman for one man.
Your contention is that there is no such thing by Jesus
in the Scriptures. We are not discussing Seth or Abel.
Don't be trying to dodge the issue.
You have no issue. You can't even properly support your random claims
with actual citations (not that your citations will have anything to
do with reality, anyway).
The issue is Marriage. Why, O homme vain, do you think
that Jesus said " what God puts together let not put ascender"?
Do you think that he was talking about polygamy?
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
28 Jul 2005 10:30:38 PM |
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wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
wrote:
God did not create thousand Eves for Adam.
The Bible is silent on that matter.
Who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry? Did they commit incest? If
they didn't, then Adam and Eve were not only two people that were
created, in which case we cannot say how many were created.
This is irrelevant to the issue at hands
It is quite relevant.
If the Bible were a complete answer to everything, then you could find
the answer to any question in it. You can't.
It is about what Jesus said about One woman for one man.
Your contention is that there is no such thing by Jesus
in the Scriptures. We are not discussing Seth or Abel.
Don't be trying to dodge the issue.
You have no issue. You can't even properly support your random claims
with actual citations (not that your citations will have anything to
do with reality, anyway).
The issue is Marriage.
Correct. So who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry?
Why, O homme vain, do you think
that Jesus said " what God puts together let not put ascender"?
He didn't. He spoke something in Aramaic, which has been translated
by some people into a variety of texts, all of which are more
grammatical and better spelled than what you just wrote.
Do you think that he was talking about polygamy?
He was talking about what the Pharisees had asked Him about - whether
a man could "put away" his wife. He did not address polygamy, since
He was answering people who would never have considered polygamy.
And of course, most Protestants don't believe that what He taught
applies to them anyway, pretty much all of them allow divorce, which
is what Christ seems to have been discussing.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
29 Jul 2005 04:06:58 PM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
God did not create thousand Eves for Adam.
The Bible is silent on that matter.
Who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry? Did they commit incest? If
they didn't, then Adam and Eve were not only two people that were
created, in which case we cannot say how many were created.
This is irrelevant to the issue at hands
It is quite relevant.
If the Bible were a complete answer to everything, then you could find
the answer to any question in it. You can't.
It is about what Jesus said about One woman for one man.
Your contention is that there is no such thing by Jesus
in the Scriptures. We are not discussing Seth or Abel.
Don't be trying to dodge the issue.
You have no issue. You can't even properly support your random claims
with actual citations (not that your citations will have anything to
do with reality, anyway).
The issue is Marriage.
Correct. So who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry?
Why, O homme vain, do you think
that Jesus said " what God puts together let not put ascender"?
He didn't. He spoke something in Aramaic, which has been translated
by some people into a variety of texts, all of which are more
grammatical and better spelled than what you just wrote.
Again you erreneously think that writing preceded oral tradition.
But that is not the case. Jesus disciples was already instructed
orally within their congregations before everything was put
in writing. TRADITION IS SACRED, AS SACRED AS THE SCRIPTURES
but apparently you don't know about that.
Do you think that he was talking about polygamy?
He was talking about what the Pharisees had asked Him about - whether
a man could "put away" his wife. He did not address polygamy, since
He was answering people who would never have considered polygamy.
What are you saying? Jewish Society was polygamous in Jesus' time,
I assume you know that.
And of course, most Protestants don't believe that what He taught
applies to them anyway, pretty much all of them allow divorce, which
is what Christ seems to have been discussing.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
30 Jul 2005 02:25:36 AM |
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wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
You have no issue. You can't even properly support your random claims
with actual citations (not that your citations will have anything to
do with reality, anyway).
The issue is Marriage.
Correct. So who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry?
Why, O homme vain, do you think
that Jesus said " what God puts together let not put ascender"?
He didn't. He spoke something in Aramaic, which has been translated
by some people into a variety of texts, all of which are more
grammatical and better spelled than what you just wrote.
Again you erreneously think that writing preceded oral tradition.
I don't erroneously think any such thing.
But I know that oral tradition is perverted every time it is
transmitted.
You would too, if you had ever played that children's game called
"Whisper Down the Line" or "Chinese Whispers".
But that is not the case. Jesus disciples was already instructed
orally within their congregations before everything was put
in writing.
And every time there was oral instruction, some of it was
misunderstood. By the time it was put in writing, it was no longer
what was originally said. And we aren't even considering translation
error and the enormous changes in cultural context since then (any
teaching will necessarily be in terms of the local cultural context -
which means that the teachings might be different in a different
cultural context. Paul understood that, but you don't - you
apparently think that we should understand the Scripture as if we were
1st century Hellenes.
TRADITION IS SACRED, AS SACRED AS THE SCRIPTURES
but apparently you don't know about that.
Of course I do. But WHICH tradition is sacred, is purely a individual
matter. I consider YOUR traditions a bunch of hogwash.
Do you think that he was talking about polygamy?
He was talking about what the Pharisees had asked Him about - whether
a man could "put away" his wife. He did not address polygamy, since
He was answering people who would never have considered polygamy.
What are you saying?
Read above.
Jewish Society was polygamous in Jesus' time, I assume you know that.
Your unsubstantiated opinion is uninteresting, not to mention
unintelligible.
Why not try providing a reference rather than spouting off yet again,
so we know what you think you are claiming in that sentence.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
30 Jul 2005 08:15:20 AM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Again you erreneously think that writing preceded oral tradition.
I don't erroneously think any such thing.
But I know that oral tradition is perverted every time it is
transmitted.
You would too, if you had ever played that children's game called
"Whisper Down the Line" or "Chinese Whispers".
One can say something similar about written
languages. The perversion of written languages
is deliberate, though.
But there are cases of oral tradition recording
things which happened 7000 years ago, as is the
case with the Mazama eruption.
Just remember: The Book of Mormon and the Walam
Olum are written.
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
03 Aug 2005 03:36:35 PM |
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On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:25:36 -0500, Bob LeChevalier wrote
(in article <oaame1tackgsrl7ou074ndovj9p991atoi@4ax.com>):
Codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
You have no issue. You can't even properly support your random claims
with actual citations (not that your citations will have anything to
do with reality, anyway).
The issue is Marriage.
Correct. So who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry?
Why, O homme vain, do you think
that Jesus said " what God puts together let not put ascender"?
He didn't. He spoke something in Aramaic, which has been translated
by some people into a variety of texts, all of which are more
grammatical and better spelled than what you just wrote.
Again you erreneously think that writing preceded oral tradition.
I don't erroneously think any such thing.
But I know that oral tradition is perverted every time it is
transmitted.
You would too, if you had ever played that children's game called
"Whisper Down the Line" or "Chinese Whispers".
In Cub Scouts down chere, it was named "Gossip".
There was a moral to the story. [grin]
Gray Shockley
-------------------------------------------------
Pain is inevitable but suffering is optional.
But that is not the case. Jesus disciples was already instructed
orally within their congregations before everything was put
in writing.
And every time there was oral instruction, some of it was
misunderstood. By the time it was put in writing, it was no longer
what was originally said. And we aren't even considering translation
error and the enormous changes in cultural context since then (any
teaching will necessarily be in terms of the local cultural context -
which means that the teachings might be different in a different
cultural context. Paul understood that, but you don't - you
apparently think that we should understand the Scripture as if we were
1st century Hellenes.
TRADITION IS SACRED, AS SACRED AS THE SCRIPTURES
but apparently you don't know about that.
Of course I do. But WHICH tradition is sacred, is purely a individual
matter. I consider YOUR traditions a bunch of hogwash.
Do you think that he was talking about polygamy?
He was talking about what the Pharisees had asked Him about - whether
a man could "put away" his wife. He did not address polygamy, since
He was answering people who would never have considered polygamy.
What are you saying?
Read above.
Jewish Society was polygamous in Jesus' time, I assume you know that.
Your unsubstantiated opinion is uninteresting, not to mention
unintelligible.
Why not try providing a reference rather than spouting off yet again,
so we know what you think you are claiming in that sentence.
lojbab
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
29 Jul 2005 04:20:39 PM |
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In article <1122671217.979280.87280@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> writes:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
wrote:
God did not create thousand Eves for Adam.
The Bible is silent on that matter.
Who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry? Did they commit incest? If
they didn't, then Adam and Eve were not only two people that were
created, in which case we cannot say how many were created.
This is irrelevant to the issue at hands
It is quite relevant.
If the Bible were a complete answer to everything, then you could find
the answer to any question in it. You can't.
It is about what Jesus said about One woman for one man.
Your contention is that there is no such thing by Jesus
in the Scriptures. We are not discussing Seth or Abel.
Don't be trying to dodge the issue.
You have no issue. You can't even properly support your random claims
with actual citations (not that your citations will have anything to
do with reality, anyway).
The issue is Marriage.
Correct. So who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry?
Why, O homme vain, do you think
that Jesus said " what God puts together let not put ascender"?
He didn't. He spoke something in Aramaic, which has been translated
by some people into a variety of texts, all of which are more
grammatical and better spelled than what you just wrote.
Again you erreneously think that writing preceded oral tradition.
But that is not the case. Jesus disciples was already instructed
orally within their congregations before everything was put
in writing. TRADITION IS SACRED, AS SACRED AS THE SCRIPTURES
but apparently you don't know about that.
Which tradition, or more to the point: how do we decide which
tradition is sacred? The Mormons, after all, have a long
and rich tradition of revelation from God. Or so they
say. Just as you say.
-- cary
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
30 Jul 2005 10:01:15 AM |
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Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article <1122671217.979280.87280@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> writes:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
wrote:
God did not create thousand Eves for Adam.
The Bible is silent on that matter.
Who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry? Did they commit incest? If
they didn't, then Adam and Eve were not only two people that were
created, in which case we cannot say how many were created.
This is irrelevant to the issue at hands
It is quite relevant.
If the Bible were a complete answer to everything, then you could find
the answer to any question in it. You can't.
It is about what Jesus said about One woman for one man.
Your contention is that there is no such thing by Jesus
in the Scriptures. We are not discussing Seth or Abel.
Don't be trying to dodge the issue.
You have no issue. You can't even properly support your random claims
with actual citations (not that your citations will have anything to
do with reality, anyway).
The issue is Marriage.
Correct. So who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry?
Why, O homme vain, do you think
that Jesus said " what God puts together let not put ascender"?
He didn't. He spoke something in Aramaic, which has been translated
by some people into a variety of texts, all of which are more
grammatical and better spelled than what you just wrote.
Again you erreneously think that writing preceded oral tradition.
But that is not the case. Jesus disciples was already instructed
orally within their congregations before everything was put
in writing. TRADITION IS SACRED, AS SACRED AS THE SCRIPTURES
but apparently you don't know about that.
Which tradition, or more to the point: how do we decide which
tradition is sacred? The Mormons, after all, have a long
and rich tradition of revelation from God. Or so they
say. Just as you say.
This should be child play for people who think
that they have clues to investigate anything.
The role of an intellectual is to answer this
kind of questions.
I am assuming that you are a genuine intellectual.
-- cary
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
28 Jul 2005 04:54:54 PM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
God did not create thousand Eves for Adam.
The Bible is silent on that matter.
Who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry? Did they commit incest? If
they didn't, then Adam and Eve were not only two people that were
created, in which case we cannot say how many were created.
This is irrelevant to the issue at hands
It is quite relevant.
If the Bible were a complete answer to everything, then you could find
the answer to any question in it. You can't.
It is about what Jesus said about One woman for one man.
Your contention is that there is no such thing by Jesus
in the Scriptures. We are not discussing Seth or Abel.
Don't be trying to dodge the issue.
You have no issue. You can't even properly support your random claims
with actual citations (not that your citations will have anything to
do with reality, anyway).
What claim? What claim are you talking about?
It is not for me to school you in what Jesus taught
regarding marriage and where to find it just to debate you.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
28 Jul 2005 10:23:52 PM |
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wrote:
It is about what Jesus said about One woman for one man.
Your contention is that there is no such thing by Jesus
in the Scriptures. We are not discussing Seth or Abel.
Don't be trying to dodge the issue.
You have no issue. You can't even properly support your random claims
with actual citations (not that your citations will have anything to
do with reality, anyway).
What claim? What claim are you talking about?
It is not for me to school you in what Jesus taught
regarding marriage and where to find it just to debate you.
It is apparently not for you to make any sense either.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
27 Jul 2005 04:53:23 PM |
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On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:20:49 -0500, wrote
(in article
<1122474049.594062.141760@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>):
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Certainly not from the Bible, where King Solomon had a raft of wives.
And that was corrected by the one who had authority to do so,
Nope.
I mean Jesus the Messiah when he made
it mandatory for us to return to God original
intent when creating Adam and Eve.
He did no such thing.
God did not create thousand Eves for Adam.
The Bible is silent on that matter.
Who did Cain and Abel and Seth marry? Did they commit incest? If
they didn't, then Adam and Eve were not only two people that were
created, in which case we cannot say how many were created.
This is irrelevant to the issue at hands
Because the Bible is silent on that matter?
You need to understand that what you may think of as "Holy Visions"
may quite well be - to humans - merely psychotic hallucinations.
Gray Shockley
-------------------------------------------------
One man's religion is another man's belly laugh.
- Jubal Harshaw (Channeled through RAH)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
27 Jul 2005 09:17:10 AM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Certainly not from the Bible, where King Solomon had a raft of wives.
And that was corrected by the one who had authority to do so,
Nope.
I mean Jesus the Messiah when he made
it mandatory for us to return to God original
intent when creating Adam and Eve.
He did no such thing.
Are you saying that you don't know that?
What Canonized version of the Bible are you reading fom?
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
27 Jul 2005 04:25:53 PM |
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wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Certainly not from the Bible, where King Solomon had a raft of wives.
And that was corrected by the one who had authority to do so,
Nope.
I mean Jesus the Messiah when he made
it mandatory for us to return to God original
intent when creating Adam and Eve.
He did no such thing.
Are you saying that you don't know that?
What Canonized version of the Bible are you reading fom?
I don't give a hoot about "Canonized versions". The Bible is a work
of men, and not the God whom I worship.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
28 Jul 2005 08:53:12 AM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Certainly not from the Bible, where King Solomon had a raft of wives.
And that was corrected by the one who had authority to do so,
Nope.
I mean Jesus the Messiah when he made
it mandatory for us to return to God original
intent when creating Adam and Eve.
He did no such thing.
Are you saying that you don't know that?
What Canonized version of the Bible are you reading fom?
I don't give a hoot about "Canonized versions". The Bible is a work
of men, and not the God whom I worship.
PROVE THAT MOSES DID NOT GET THE TABLET FROM GOD.
PROVE THAT GOD DID NOT DICTATE THE LAW IN FRONT OF
COUNTLESS HEBREWS
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep it? |
28 Jul 2005 03:01:23 PM |
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wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Are you saying that you don't know that?
What Canonized version of the Bible are you reading fom?
I don't give a hoot about "Canonized versions". The Bible is a work
of men, and not the God whom I worship.
PROVE THAT MOSES DID NOT GET THE TABLET FROM GOD.
Prove that there ever was a tablet.
PROVE THAT GOD DID NOT DICTATE THE LAW IN FRONT OF COUNTLESS HEBREWS
Prove that He did.
One proves positive assertions, not negative ones.
All you have is words that are translated from other words that were
written down a millennium or more after the events supposedly
happened. There is less reason to believe them accurate than the King
Arthur story, which was only written down a few centuries after what
supposedly happened.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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