| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
23 Jul 2007 08:43:46 PM |
| Object: |
KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
Prominent Democratic officeholders are willing to
deny or countenance crimes against humanity in
order to justify a popular political position.
Doesn't this shock the conscience of Democrats?
By JAMES TARANTO
'It Didn't Happen'
We suppose it was inevitable: Four and a half years after Congress
authorized the liberation of Iraq, some observers are comparing the
situation there to Vietnam, where America lost a war after its will
faltered. It turns out at least one congressman actually served in
Vietnam, so he ought to be particularly qualified to help us determine
the lessons of that conflict for this one.
Meet John Kerry, junior senator from Massachusetts. Some say he looks
French, others call him haughty. But everyone agrees on one thing: He
served in Vietnam.
After returning from a tour of duty that lasted an astonishing four
months, Kerry also became an antiwar activist. In 1971 Kerry testified
before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that the Vietnamese were
a simple people, too simple to care about freedom or oppression:
We found most people didn't even know the difference between communism
and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice paddies without
helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages
and tearing their country apart.
Kerry's side prevailed. In 1973 the U.S. withdrew its troops from
Vietnam, and in 1975 Congress, its Democratic majority expanded by the
post-Watergate election of 1974, voted to cut off aid to the South
Vietnamese government. That year Saigon fell to the communists.
What happened then? Not much, according to Kerry, quoted in the
Chicago Tribune:
"We heard that argument over and over again about the bloodbath that
would engulf the entire Southeast Asia, and it didn't happen," Kerry
said, dismissing the charge out of hand as he argued that the American
presence only makes the situation worse every day.
In 2001, California's Orange County Register published an
investigation of communist re-education camps in postwar Vietnam:
To corroborate the experiences of refugees now living in Orange
County, the Register interviewed dozens of former inmates and their
families, both in the United States and Vietnam; analyzed hundreds of
pages of documents, including testimony from more than 800 individuals
sent to jail; and interviewed Southeast Asian scholars. The review
found:
An estimated 1 million people were imprisoned without formal charges
or trials.
165,000 people died in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam's re-
education camps, according to published academic studies in the United
States and Europe.
Thousands were abused or tortured: their hands and legs shackled in
painful positions for months, their skin slashed by bamboo canes
studded with thorns, their veins injected with poisonous chemicals,
their spirits broken with stories about relatives being killed.
Prisoners were incarcerated for as long as 17 years, according to the
U.S. Department of State, with most terms ranging from three to 10
years.
At least 150 re-education prisons were built after Saigon fell 26
years ago.
One in three South Vietnamese families had a relative in a re-
education camp.
According to John Kerry, "it didn't happen."
Things were even worse in Cambodia, as the Christian Science Monitor
reported in 2005:
When the Khmer Rouge victoriously entered Phnom Penh 30 years ago,
many people greeted the rebels with a cautious optimism, weary from
five years of civil war that had torn apart their lives and killed
hundreds of thousands of Cambodians. . . .
During the nearly four years following that day--April 17, 1975--
Cambodia was radically transformed. . . .
Everyday freedoms were abolished. Buddhism and other forms of
religious worship were banned. Money, markets, and media disappeared.
Travel, public gatherings, and communication were restricted. Contact
with the outside world vanished. And the state set out to control what
people ate and did each day, whom they married, how they spoke, what
they thought, and who would live and die. "To keep you is no gain,"
the Khmer Rouge warned, "To destroy you is no loss."
In the end, more than 1.7 million of Cambodia's 8 million inhabitants
perished from disease, starvation, overwork, or outright execution in
a notorious genocide.
But don't worry. According to John Kerry, "it didn't happen."
Last week, as we noted, Kerry's colleague Barack Obama opined that
genocide in Iraq would be preferable to America's continued presence
there. But John Kerry has shown the way. If genocide, or some lesser
horror, does occur in the wake of a U.S. retreat, Obama can simply
assert: "It didn't happen."
Prominent Democratic officeholders are willing to deny or countenance
crimes against humanity in order to justify a popular political
position. Doesn't this shock the conscience of Democrats?
.
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| User: "Jim E" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
23 Jul 2007 11:35:17 PM |
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<last_post@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:1185241426.012953.277300@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
Prominent Democratic officeholders are willing to
deny or countenance crimes against humanity in
order to justify a popular political position.
Doesn't this shock the conscience of Democrats?
By JAMES TARANTO
'It Didn't Happen'
We suppose it was inevitable: Four and a half years after Congress
authorized the liberation of Iraq, some observers are comparing the
situation there to Vietnam, where America lost a war after its will
faltered. It turns out at least one congressman actually served in
Vietnam, so he ought to be particularly qualified to help us determine
the lessons of that conflict for this one.
Meet John Kerry, junior senator from Massachusetts. Some say he looks
French, others call him haughty. But everyone agrees on one thing: He
served in Vietnam.
For a few months.
Then he ran like a scalded cat.
I did two tours, that coward couldn't complete one without begging to go
home.
A born liberal coward.
Jim E
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| User: "Republican Madness" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
24 Jul 2007 01:28:56 AM |
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"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5glds7F3hiiugU1@mid.individual.net...
<last_post@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:1185241426.012953.277300@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
Prominent Democratic officeholders are willing to
deny or countenance crimes against humanity in
order to justify a popular political position.
Doesn't this shock the conscience of Democrats?
By JAMES TARANTO
'It Didn't Happen'
We suppose it was inevitable: Four and a half years after Congress
authorized the liberation of Iraq, some observers are comparing the
situation there to Vietnam, where America lost a war after its will
faltered. It turns out at least one congressman actually served in
Vietnam, so he ought to be particularly qualified to help us determine
the lessons of that conflict for this one.
Meet John Kerry, junior senator from Massachusetts. Some say he looks
French, others call him haughty. But everyone agrees on one thing: He
served in Vietnam.
For a few months.
Then he ran like a scalded cat.
I did two tours.......working for Ho Chi Minh & RedChina like Bush.
Jim E
Didn't you sell out like McCain?
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| User: "Bokonon" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
24 Jul 2007 12:50:28 AM |
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"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5glds7F3hiiugU1@mid.individual.net...
Meet John Kerry, junior senator from Massachusetts. Some say he looks
French, others call him haughty. But everyone agrees on one thing: He
served in Vietnam.
For a few months.
Kerry was on his second tour in Vietnam when he pulled Swift Boat duty.
You fucking traitor.
--
"History! Read it and weep!"
-Bokonon
_______________________________________________
When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
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| User: "Jim E" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
25 Jul 2007 12:38:57 AM |
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"Bokonon" <seattledemocracy@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13ab4p4qh0sjle6@corp.supernews.com...
"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5glds7F3hiiugU1@mid.individual.net...
Meet John Kerry, junior senator from Massachusetts. Some say he looks
French, others call him haughty. But everyone agrees on one thing: He
served in Vietnam.
For a few months.
Kerry was on his second tour in Vietnam when he pulled Swift Boat duty.
You fucking traitor.
He never even spent four months in country.
Floating around the Pacific on a tin can totally out of harms way is the
kind of joke that defines Hanoi John's military "career".
Jim E
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| User: "Larry Hewitt" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
25 Jul 2007 02:34:56 AM |
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"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5go5v7F3gbqa8U1@mid.individual.net...
"Bokonon" <seattledemocracy@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13ab4p4qh0sjle6@corp.supernews.com...
"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5glds7F3hiiugU1@mid.individual.net...
Meet John Kerry, junior senator from Massachusetts. Some say he looks
French, others call him haughty. But everyone agrees on one thing: He
served in Vietnam.
For a few months.
Kerry was on his second tour in Vietnam when he pulled Swift Boat duty.
You fucking traitor.
He never even spent four months in country.
Floating around the Pacific on a tin can totally out of harms way is the
kind of joke that defines Hanoi John's military "career".
Keep lying, fool.
Larry
Jim E
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| User: "Bokonon" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
25 Jul 2007 05:40:58 PM |
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"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5go5v7F3gbqa8U1@mid.individual.net...
Kerry was on his second tour in Vietnam when he pulled Swift Boat duty.
You fucking traitor.
He never even spent four months in country.
ANOTHER lie.
Damn - you sure do that a lot.
Didn't your parents teach you proper values, you fucking traitor?
You hate your country, you help terrorists, and you tell lies.
You're scum.
--
"History! Read it and weep!"
-Bokonon
_______________________________________________
When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
25 Jul 2007 01:43:02 PM |
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"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote:
He never even spent four months in country.
Floating around the Pacific on a tin can totally out of harms way is the
kind of joke that defines Hanoi John's military "career".
Your disrespect for the sailors of the United States Navy is noted,
and probably not appreciated.
A good friend of mine lost her husband on the Frank E Evans
<Author: AAP
<Source: The Age
<Date: 4 Jun 1969
<
<56 LOST AS DESTROYER CUT IN HALF
<
<The R.A.N.’s ill-fated flagship HMAS Melbourne is limping towards
< Singapore after sinking an American destroyer in a collision
< yesterday.
<
<At least 56 American sailors were lost in the disaster.
<
<There were no casualties aboard the Melbourne which is due in
< Singapore for repairs tomorrow.
<
<The American destroyer USS Frank E. Evans was cut in two when she was
< rammed by the 20,000 ton Australian aircraft carrier during a SEATO
< exercise in the South China Sea.
lojbab
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| User: "SueDoeCyAnts" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
25 Jul 2007 09:32:52 AM |
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on Tue 24 Jul 2007 10:38:57p
"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> posted
in news:5go5v7F3gbqa8U1@mid.individual.net:
"Bokonon" <seattledemocracy@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13ab4p4qh0sjle6@corp.supernews.com...
"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5glds7F3hiiugU1@mid.individual.net...
Meet John Kerry, junior senator from Massachusetts. Some say
he looks French, others call him haughty. But everyone agrees
on one thing: He served in Vietnam.
For a few months.
Kerry was on his second tour in Vietnam when he pulled Swift
Boat duty.
You fucking traitor.
He never even spent four months in country.
Floating around the Pacific on a tin can totally out of harms
way is the kind of joke that defines Hanoi John's military
"career".
Jim E
Sack of ***** defamer of a vet for political spin spewed to support
a real 'DADDY GOT ME INTO THE GUARD' piece of *****, who did not
even honourably complete that six year commitment, and his 4 time
deferred from the draft running mate, who later stated he had more
important things to do than serve in the US Military during the
Vietnam conflict. A vice president who would not even properly
describe the US Military Oath correctly at the most recent West
Point commencement address:
"On your first day of Army life, each one of you
raised your right hand and took an oath. And you
will swear again today to defend the United States
against all enemies, foreign and domestic."
***** Cheney, West Point Commencement Address, May 26, 2007
<http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070526-1.html>
Question, do you even have the mental capacity to understand what
is wrong with the profoundly false preceeding Cheny quotation? If
yes, why is that contemporary conservatives remain blissfully
unaware of it?
Picking up again, You slandered a vet:
To support a president who has taken America into an
unrighteous war upon Iraq, whilst our true enemy licked it wounds,
then metastasised, and who now, five years later, attempts to
foist off the responsibility using a dishonest descriptive term:
resurgence;
To support a Republican President who lied to the military,
and America with his claims of supporting the Vets, and when this
deceitfulness became transparent when the condition of Walter Reed
hospital was reported, did a photo-op with Military casualties at
Walter Reed, in which he still arrogantly refused to accept
personal responsibility, and instead passed the blame off on a
fuzzy cause, telling them, "The System Let You down".
Hey G.Dubya, since you are, at least figuratively speaking,
the President of the USA; in this instance,
YOU ARE THE FUCKING SYSTEM, LOCK, STOCK AND BARELL!
Your false utterance that a full tour of duty in Navy off the
coast of Vietnam honourably serving in the US Navy was not a
combat tour defames a hell of a lot more vets than just J effin
Kerry. You failed to mention that Kerry's early exit from country
during his SECOND TOUR was something that the military tended to
do for their personel after the third Purple Heart, not out of
compassion, but instead for morale boosting propaganda. Someone
who could manage to get hit three times in four months, and still
walk-away was both exceedingly lucky, and probably a Gung-Ho *****
who was bound to take another round, sooner if not later. By
sending him home, he was one lucky *****, and a big plus for
troop morale. By allowing him to contiue the tour, he was liable
to become one sorry dead *****, and troop demoraliser.
I await the inevitable: your providing further proof of your
eminent suitability for use as an asswipe in a dysentery ward, so
please respond, and be sure to metion: Chenoweth, Corsi, Elliott,
Franke, Hibbard, Hoffmann, Letson, Lonsdale, Schachte, Thurlow and
most especially do not forget to cite the Nixon tool
and Colson butt-boy, O'Neill.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
24 Jul 2007 07:01:57 AM |
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On Jul 24, 1:50 am, "Bokonon" <seattledemocr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Jim E" <YD639...@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5glds7F3hiiugU1@mid.individual.net...
Meet John Kerry, junior senator from Massachusetts. Some say he looks
French, others call him haughty. But everyone agrees on one thing: He
served in Vietnam.
For a few months.
Kerry was on his second tour in Vietnam when he pulled Swift Boat duty.
You fucking traitor.
Indeed you are the traitor, Bokoboy and ignorant too.
Kerry's portal to portal time logs at 4 months.--
one-sixth of one tour
Check out #1 below to read your profile
- -
There are three types of people that you can_not_talk
into behaving well. The stupid, the religious fanatic,
and the evil.
1- The stupid aren't smart enough to follow the logic of what you
say. You have to tell them what is right in very simple terms. If
they don't agree, then you'll never be able to change their mind.
2- the religious fanatic If what you say goes against their religious
belief, they will cling to that religious belief even if it means
their death."
3- There is no way to reform evil- Not in a million
years There is no way to convince the terrorists, serial killers,
pedophiles, and predators to change their evil ways. They knew what
they were doing was wrong, but that knowledge didn't stop them. It
only made them more careful in how they went about performing their
evil acts.
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
23 Jul 2007 09:42:26 PM |
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wrote:
In 2001, California's Orange County Register published an
investigation of communist re-education camps in postwar Vietnam:
To corroborate the experiences of refugees now living in Orange
County, the Register interviewed dozens of former inmates and their
families, both in the United States and Vietnam; analyzed hundreds of
pages of documents, including testimony from more than 800 individuals
sent to jail; and interviewed Southeast Asian scholars. The review
found:
An estimated 1 million people were imprisoned without formal charges
or trials.
165,000 people died in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam's re-
education camps, according to published academic studies in the United
States and Europe.
Totally excluding our own casualties:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties
North Vietnamese Army, National Front for the Liberation of Vietnam
~800,000 KIA and ~300,000 MIA.
....
The U.S. military itself previously estimated that their actions
killed 500,000 enemy troops[1], while 400,000 were killed by the
actions of the other allied forces (900,000 total). Some allege that
actually most of the 1.1 million soldiers lost remain missing.[2]
~600,000 WIA.
....
South Vietnamese Army
~250,000 KIA/MIA
~1,170,000 WIA
And that isn't counting civilians killed.
While I deplore 165,000 people killed in re-education camps, it is a
helluva lot less than the 1 million that were killed in the war, and
the million more it might have taken for us to "win" the war if it was
even possible to win it (at which point the South Vietnamese would
have probably killed just as many communists in their own version of
"re-education camps".
Prominent Democratic officeholders are willing to deny or countenance
crimes against humanity in order to justify a popular political
position.
Republicans continue to support George Bush.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
lojbab
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| User: "Jim E" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
23 Jul 2007 11:37:56 PM |
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"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:nroaa31vl7hv7l90v703gadtmgb21edak8@4ax.com...
last_post@rogers.com wrote:
In 2001, California's Orange County Register published an
investigation of communist re-education camps in postwar Vietnam:
To corroborate the experiences of refugees now living in Orange
County, the Register interviewed dozens of former inmates and their
families, both in the United States and Vietnam; analyzed hundreds of
pages of documents, including testimony from more than 800 individuals
sent to jail; and interviewed Southeast Asian scholars. The review
found:
An estimated 1 million people were imprisoned without formal charges
or trials.
165,000 people died in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam's re-
education camps, according to published academic studies in the United
States and Europe.
Totally excluding our own casualties:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties
North Vietnamese Army, National Front for the Liberation of Vietnam
~800,000 KIA and ~300,000 MIA.
...
The U.S. military itself previously estimated that their actions
killed 500,000 enemy troops[1], while 400,000 were killed by the
actions of the other allied forces (900,000 total). Some allege that
actually most of the 1.1 million soldiers lost remain missing.[2]
~600,000 WIA.
...
South Vietnamese Army
~250,000 KIA/MIA
~1,170,000 WIA
And that isn't counting civilians killed.
While I deplore 165,000 people killed in re-education camps, it is a
helluva lot less than the 1 million that were killed in the war, and
the million more it might have taken for us to "win" the war if it was
even possible to win it (at which point the South Vietnamese would
have probably killed just as many communists in their own version of
"re-education camps".
Prominent Democratic officeholders are willing to deny or countenance
crimes against humanity in order to justify a popular political
position.
Republicans continue to support George Bush.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
lojbab
The same rule still applies.
When in doubt, dump the magazine.
There is nothing at all wrong with enemy dead.
It is the goal after all.
Jim E
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
23 Jul 2007 11:01:58 PM |
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On Jul 23, 10:42 pm, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
last_p...@rogers.com wrote:
In 2001, California's Orange County Register published an
investigation of communist re-education camps in postwar Vietnam:
To corroborate the experiences of refugees now living in Orange
County, the Register interviewed dozens of former inmates and their
families, both in the United States and Vietnam; analyzed hundreds of
pages of documents, including testimony from more than 800 individuals
sent to jail; and interviewed Southeast Asian scholars. The review
found:
An estimated 1 million people were imprisoned without formal charges
or trials.
165,000 people died in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam's re-
education camps, according to published academic studies in the United
States and Europe.
Hey pony boy! when are you going to learn how to
respond to the subject which in this case has to do
with Kerry's lies before congress.
And that isn't counting civilians killed.
While I deplore 165,000 people killed in re-education camps, it is a
helluva lot less than the 1 million that were killed in the war, and
the million more it might have taken for us to "win" the war if it was
even possible to win it
Now where did you find that bit of nonsense?
(at which point the South Vietnamese would
have probably killed just as many communists in their own version of
"re-education camps".
You are so full of ***** it flows through your ears.
Where were you 35 years ago?
Kindergarten perhaps?
All you can do is drag red herring across the post
to distract people from the topic so your National
Social Democrat Party (fascist) cannot be
embarrassed
Prominent Democratic officeholders are willing
to deny or countenancecrimes against humanity in
order to justify a popular political position.
Pick your profile, pony boy.
- -
There are three types of people that you can_not_talk
into behaving well. The stupid, the religious fanatic,
and the evil.
1- The stupid aren't smart enough to follow the logic
of what you say. You have to tell them what is right in
very simple terms. If they don't agree, then you'll
never be able to change their mind.
2- the religious fanatic
If what you say goes against their religious belief,
they will cling to that religious belief even if it
means their death."
3- There is no way to reform evil-
Not in a million years
There is no way to convince the terrorists, serial
killers, pedophiles, and predators to change their evil
ways. They knew what they were doing was wrong, but
that knowledge didn't stop them. It only made them more
careful in how they went about performing their evil
acts.
.
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| User: "Republican Madness" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
23 Jul 2007 11:05:24 PM |
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<last_post@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:1185249718.115699.116450@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 23, 10:42 pm, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
last_p...@rogers.com wrote:
In 2001, California's Orange County Register published an
investigation of communist re-education camps in postwar Vietnam:
To corroborate the experiences of refugees now living in Orange
County, the Register interviewed dozens of former inmates and their
families, both in the United States and Vietnam; analyzed hundreds of
pages of documents, including testimony from more than 800 individuals
sent to jail; and interviewed Southeast Asian scholars. The review
found:
An estimated 1 million people were imprisoned without formal charges
or trials.
165,000 people died in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam's re-
education camps, according to published academic studies in the United
States and Europe.
Hey pony boy! when are you going to learn how to
respond to the subject which in this case has to do
with Kerry's lies before congress.
And that isn't counting civilians killed.
Kerry didn't lie before Congress.
.
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| User: "Jim E" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
23 Jul 2007 11:39:51 PM |
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"Republican Madness" <DopedBeyond@CampCrawfordl.net> wrote in message
news:xTepi.22378$bz7.16183@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
<last_post@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:1185249718.115699.116450@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 23, 10:42 pm, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
last_p...@rogers.com wrote:
In 2001, California's Orange County Register published an
investigation of communist re-education camps in postwar Vietnam:
To corroborate the experiences of refugees now living in Orange
County, the Register interviewed dozens of former inmates and their
families, both in the United States and Vietnam; analyzed hundreds of
pages of documents, including testimony from more than 800 individuals
sent to jail; and interviewed Southeast Asian scholars. The review
found:
An estimated 1 million people were imprisoned without formal charges
or trials.
165,000 people died in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam's re-
education camps, according to published academic studies in the United
States and Europe.
Hey pony boy! when are you going to learn how to
respond to the subject which in this case has to do
with Kerry's lies before congress.
And that isn't counting civilians killed.
Kerry didn't lie before Congress.
That has to be the silliest thing I ever read.
That traitor should have been hanged decades ago.
Jim E
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| User: "Republican Madness" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
24 Jul 2007 01:26:23 AM |
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"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5gle4tF3g9fufU1@mid.individual.net...
"Republican Madness" <DopedBeyond@CampCrawfordl.net> wrote in message
news:xTepi.22378$bz7.16183@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
<last_post@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:1185249718.115699.116450@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 23, 10:42 pm, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
last_p...@rogers.com wrote:
In 2001, California's Orange County Register published an
investigation of communist re-education camps in postwar Vietnam:
To corroborate the experiences of refugees now living in Orange
County, the Register interviewed dozens of former inmates and their
families, both in the United States and Vietnam; analyzed hundreds of
pages of documents, including testimony from more than 800 individuals
sent to jail; and interviewed Southeast Asian scholars. The review
found:
An estimated 1 million people were imprisoned without formal charges
or trials.
165,000 people died in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam's re-
education camps, according to published academic studies in the United
States and Europe.
Hey pony boy! when are you going to learn how to
respond to the subject which in this case has to do
with Kerry's lies before congress.
And that isn't counting civilians killed.
Kerry didn't lie before Congress.
That has to be the silliest thing I ever read.
That traitor should have been hanged decades ago.
Jim E
You should be deported. You put politics above your nation.
.
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| User: "Jim E" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
25 Jul 2007 12:36:41 AM |
|
|
"Republican Madness" <DopedBeyond@CampCrawfordl.net> wrote in message
news:jYgpi.27866$2v1.10710@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net...
"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5gle4tF3g9fufU1@mid.individual.net...
"Republican Madness" <DopedBeyond@CampCrawfordl.net> wrote in message
news:xTepi.22378$bz7.16183@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
<last_post@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:1185249718.115699.116450@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 23, 10:42 pm, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
last_p...@rogers.com wrote:
In 2001, California's Orange County Register published an
investigation of communist re-education camps in postwar Vietnam:
To corroborate the experiences of refugees now living in Orange
County, the Register interviewed dozens of former inmates and their
families, both in the United States and Vietnam; analyzed hundreds of
pages of documents, including testimony from more than 800
individuals
sent to jail; and interviewed Southeast Asian scholars. The review
found:
An estimated 1 million people were imprisoned without formal charges
or trials.
165,000 people died in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam's re-
education camps, according to published academic studies in the
United
States and Europe.
Hey pony boy! when are you going to learn how to
respond to the subject which in this case has to do
with Kerry's lies before congress.
And that isn't counting civilians killed.
Kerry didn't lie before Congress.
That has to be the silliest thing I ever read.
That traitor should have been hanged decades ago.
Jim E
You should be deported. You put politics above your nation.
My first tour of Nam lasted a year, his lasted a couple of months.
Rich East coast politician wannabe, what a coincidence.
Band-Aids anyone.
Jim E
.
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| User: "Larry Hewitt" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
25 Jul 2007 02:34:30 AM |
|
|
"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5go5quF3fssevU1@mid.individual.net...
"Republican Madness" <DopedBeyond@CampCrawfordl.net> wrote in message
news:jYgpi.27866$2v1.10710@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net...
"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5gle4tF3g9fufU1@mid.individual.net...
"Republican Madness" <DopedBeyond@CampCrawfordl.net> wrote in message
news:xTepi.22378$bz7.16183@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
<last_post@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:1185249718.115699.116450@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 23, 10:42 pm, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
last_p...@rogers.com wrote:
In 2001, California's Orange County Register published an
investigation of communist re-education camps in postwar Vietnam:
To corroborate the experiences of refugees now living in Orange
County, the Register interviewed dozens of former inmates and their
families, both in the United States and Vietnam; analyzed hundreds
of
pages of documents, including testimony from more than 800
individuals
sent to jail; and interviewed Southeast Asian scholars. The review
found:
An estimated 1 million people were imprisoned without formal charges
or trials.
165,000 people died in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam's re-
education camps, according to published academic studies in the
United
States and Europe.
Hey pony boy! when are you going to learn how to
respond to the subject which in this case has to do
with Kerry's lies before congress.
And that isn't counting civilians killed.
Kerry didn't lie before Congress.
That has to be the silliest thing I ever read.
That traitor should have been hanged decades ago.
Jim E
You should be deported. You put politics above your nation.
My first tour of Nam lasted a year, his lasted a couple of months.
Rich East coast politician wannabe, what a coincidence.
Band-Aids anyone.
Another lie.
He served two tours, one at sea, and more than a year in country.
Larry
Jim E
.
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| User: "Bokonon" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
25 Jul 2007 05:40:06 PM |
|
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"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5go5quF3fssevU1@mid.individual.net...
My first tour of Nam lasted a year, his lasted a couple of months.
Kerry's SECOND tour lasted months, you fucking nitwit.
The man re-upped after his first.
Sheesh, you radical right-wing traitors lie a lot.
Lies are all you've got.
--
"History! Read it and weep!"
-Bokonon
_______________________________________________
When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
.
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| User: "SueDoeCyAnts" |
|
| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
26 Jul 2007 12:20:37 PM |
|
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on Tue 24 Jul 2007 10:36:41p
"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> posted
in news:5go5quF3fssevU1@mid.individual.net:
My first tour of Nam lasted a year, his lasted a couple of
months. Rich East coast politician wannabe, what a coincidence.
Band-Aids anyone.
A right-winger who insults
using class conscious arguments?
How utterly ironic.
Kerry's service in the Swift Boats was his second tour,
and in the four months he served, came home with a chestful
of salad, including 3 Purple Hearts, and yet you believe
that a bro lied about his wounds, and for evience of this
you'd use known partisan hacks, many of whom were discredited
during the 2004 presidential election.
The Urban Legends Internet Archives Documents
much of the Flip-Flopping deceits alleged by the swifties.
<http://snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp>
I add another reflection, which I never have seen published.
Louis Letson, a retired Alabama doctor, was a medical
officer and Lieutenant Commander in vietnam. He was a
swifty who claimed that he had treated one of the wounds
that Kerry was awarded a Purple Heart for, stating that it
was self-inflicted and undeserved.
------["
Louis Letson, a medical officer and Lieutenant Commander,
says in the ad that he knows Kerry is lying about his
first purple heart because "I treated him for that."
However, medical records provided by the Kerry campaign to
FactCheck.org do not list Letson as the "person
administering treatment" for Kerry’s injury on December 3,
1968 . The medical officer who signed this sick call
report is J.C. Carreon, who is listed as treating Kerry
for shrapnel to the left arm.
In his affidavit, Letson says Kerry's wound was
self-inflicted and does not merit a purple heart. But
that's based on hearsay, and disputed hearsay at that.
Letson says "the crewman with Kerry told me there was no
hostile fire, and that Kerry had inadvertently wounded
himself with an M-79 grenade." But the Kerry campaign says
the two crewmen with Kerry that day deny ever talking to
Letson.
"Republican-funded Group Attacks Kerry's War Record",
FactCheck dot org, August 6, 2004, Updated: August 22, 2004
<http://www.factcheck.org/republican-
funded_group_attacks_kerrys_war_record.html>
TinyUrl <http://tinyurl.com/2kes24>
"]------
------["
In a Times interview in May, the retired Alabama doctor
said he recalled administering treatment to Kerry for a
flesh wound incurred on Dec. 2, 1968.
[. . .]
Letson insisted he was the one who treated Kerry. Carreon
was a Filipino corpsman, a "hospitalman first class," not
a doctor, Letson said, and routinely made entries on his
behalf.
Maria L. La Ganga and Stephen Braun,
"Veterans Battle Over the Truth",
Los Angeles Times, August 17, 2004
LA Times Paid Archives link: <http://tinyurl.com/34hbmd>
"]------
What Letson is alleging here is that he, an Alabama Doctor serving
in the military during the 60s, allowed a Filipino corpsman to
sign records, which Medical Ethics and Military Rules require that
they can only be signed by the one who performed the procedure.
There are times when a medic aided a surgeon with report
transcription, because of the amount of paperwork that had built
up, but no honourable person signed those reports if they had not
personally done the work; they instead tossed the transcriptions
unsigned into the respective MDs in-basket, and no honourable MD
would have allowed any medic to sign his reports. To believe
Letson is to admit that he was a dishonourble person, willing to
act in an unethical fashion.
.
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| User: "Bokonon" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
24 Jul 2007 12:49:44 AM |
|
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"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5gle4tF3g9fufU1@mid.individual.net...
Kerry didn't lie before Congress.
That has to be the silliest thing I ever read.
So what lies did Kerry tell? Be specific.
That traitor should have been hanged decades ago.
For what?
Hell - YOU are the traitor. Should YOU be hung? Sounds good to me.
--
"History! Read it and weep!"
-Bokonon
_______________________________________________
When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
.
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| User: "Jim E" |
|
| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
25 Jul 2007 12:34:29 AM |
|
|
"Bokonon" <seattledemocracy@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13ab4nqhg70j1d9@corp.supernews.com...
"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5gle4tF3g9fufU1@mid.individual.net...
Kerry didn't lie before Congress.
That has to be the silliest thing I ever read.
So what lies did Kerry tell? Be specific.
Every word of his testimony to congress about war crimes in Vietnam.
Hell all his "witnesses were later proven to be street bums who had never
served.
That traitor should have been hanged decades ago.
For what?
Illegal negotiations with the enemy in time of war.
He cozied up to the communist north in an effort to promote his political
career, hence that big black cloud over his Naval discharge that had to be
"fixed" by the peanut farmer.
Ever notice how Hanoi John never allows his military records to be released.
Even the Navy hated the stink.
Jim E
.
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| User: "Larry Hewitt" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
25 Jul 2007 02:33:45 AM |
|
|
"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5go5mrF3g8vnqU1@mid.individual.net...
"Bokonon" <seattledemocracy@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13ab4nqhg70j1d9@corp.supernews.com...
"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5gle4tF3g9fufU1@mid.individual.net...
Kerry didn't lie before Congress.
That has to be the silliest thing I ever read.
So what lies did Kerry tell? Be specific.
Every word of his testimony to congress about war crimes in Vietnam.
Hell all his "witnesses were later proven to be street bums who had never
served.
Ok. So you cannot be specific, you cannot cite a lie, you got nothing but
your own lies.
Uh huh.
Larry
That traitor should have been hanged decades ago.
For what?
Illegal negotiations with the enemy in time of war.
He cozied up to the communist north in an effort to promote his political
career, hence that big black cloud over his Naval discharge that had to be
"fixed" by the peanut farmer.
Ever notice how Hanoi John never allows his military records to be
released.
Even the Navy hated the stink.
Jim E
.
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| User: "Bokonon" |
|
| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
25 Jul 2007 05:39:08 PM |
|
|
"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5go5mrF3g8vnqU1@mid.individual.net...
So what lies did Kerry tell? Be specific.
Every word of his testimony to congress about war crimes in Vietnam.
Uh-huh.
Hell all his "witnesses were later proven to be street bums who had never
served.
Cite, please.
That traitor should have been hanged decades ago.
For what?
Illegal negotiations with the enemy in time of war.
Never happened.
Got anything besides lies?
Damn, you radical right-wing traitors are some stupid motherfuckers.
--
"History! Read it and weep!"
-Bokonon
_______________________________________________
When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
.
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| User: "SueDoeCyAnts" |
|
| Title: Jim E provide citations or admit you're an ***** |
26 Jul 2007 11:19:08 AM |
|
|
on Tue 24 Jul 2007 10:34:29p
"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> posted
in news:5go5mrF3g8vnqU1@mid.individual.net:
"Bokonon" <seattledemocracy@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13ab4nqhg70j1d9@corp.supernews.com...
"Jim E" <YD639275@SVN.net> wrote in message
news:5gle4tF3g9fufU1@mid.individual.net...
Kerry didn't lie before Congress.
That has to be the silliest thing I ever read.
So what lies did Kerry tell? Be specific.
Every word of his testimony to congress about war crimes in
Vietnam. Hell all his "witnesses were later proven to be street
bums who had never served.
That traitor should have been hanged decades ago.
For what?
Illegal negotiations with the enemy in time of war.
He cozied up to the communist north in an effort to promote his
political career, hence that big black cloud over his Naval
discharge that had to be "fixed" by the peanut farmer.
Ever notice how Hanoi John never allows his military records to
be released. Even the Navy hated the stink.
Jim E
*********************************
* I AM CALLING YOU OUT ***** *
*********************************
Time has come for you
to put up something other than
your unsubsantiated defamations and slanders.
Apologies for my having to request the use of something
that so many contemporary conservatives seem to believe is obscene,
but time has come to back up your allegations with
********************
* FACTUAL EVIDENCE *
********************
Are you capable of providing CITATIONS
for any of your slanderous aspersions?
They are big on truthiness,
but light-in-the-loafers evidentiary.
A simple investigation into your charge that
Kerry lied expansively in his VVAW statement to Congress
easily shows that this insubstantiality, which is the cause
for your projeccting an aura of being light-footed,
is directly attributed to the well-defined space of vacuity,
that is bounded by your skull.
The Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement
given to the Senate Committee of Foreign Relations
April 23, 1971, by Lt. John F. Kerry was a synopsis
of what had occurred at the Winter Soldier Investigation.
The content was not created by Kerry; therefore
the veracity of your allegation that Kerry lied in
"Every word of his testimony to congress about war crimes"
does not rely on whether the actions of American soldiers in
Vietnam which were alleged within Kerry's statement were truthful
or not, but instead on whether Kerry's statement was in fact,
a fair synopsis of the testimony given at
the Winter Soldier Investigation.
On that count, there is no doubt that Kerry spoke truthfully.
Not one witness in the Winter Soldier Investigation, January 31,
1971, February 1 and 2, 1971 has ever proven to have been a
non-Vietnam Veteran. One, Al Hubbard, lied about his being an
officer, but had in fact been an elisted member of the military,
and had served in Vietnam. No other witness has ever been proven
to have been false.
Yet you stated that every one of them were non Vet street bums.
I reiterate; EVERYONE OF THEM
The names of the witnesses in the Winter Soldier Investigation
are in the public domain; as the whole testimony was entered into
The Congressional Daily Record
by Oregon Senator Mark Hatfield
April 5, 1971
It is also available online, published by the 60' Project
and hosted on University of Virginia servers.
Winter Soldier Investigation
Testimony given in Detroit, Michigan,
on January 31, 1971, February 1 and 2, 1971
<http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primar
y/Winter_Soldier/WS_entry.html>
TinyUrl to home page: <http://tinyurl.com/2qymp>
Every person who testified during the Winter Soldier Investigation
gave their name,
their rank,
their unit, and
the dates that they served in Vietnam.
Again, this is public knowledge, available to everyone.
Provide factual data to back up your claim that all of the
"witnesses were later proven
to be street bums who had never served"
You, of course, certainly know that you cannot do this, so let me
ask the question in a simpler manner, exactly which individuals
who testified at the Winter Sodier Investigation are you able to
provide even a shred of evidence that they were in fact:
"street bums who had never served"
How many can you name?
Can you even provide evidence for one of them?
If you cannot, then I say:
*****-off partisan puke;
may your descendants
urinate upon
the memorial of your death.
----
JimEeee
come out,
come out
and play,
wherever you are...
.
|
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| User: "* US *" |
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| Title: Re: Jim E provide citations or admit you're an ***** |
27 Jul 2007 06:33:46 AM |
|
|
On 26 Jul 2007 16:19:08 GMT, SueDoeCyAnts <pseudocy@labb.port5.com> wrote:
*********************************
* I AM CALLING YOU OUT ***** *
*********************************
Time has come for you
to put up something other than
your unsubsantiated defamations and slanders.
Apologies for my having to request the use of something
that so many contemporary conservatives seem to believe is obscene,
but time has come to back up your allegations with
********************
* FACTUAL EVIDENCE *
********************
Are you capable of providing CITATIONS
for any of your slanderous aspersions?
They are big on truthiness,
but light-in-the-loafers evidentiary.
A simple investigation into your charge that
Kerry lied expansively in his VVAW statement to Congress
easily shows that this insubstantiality, which is the cause
for your projeccting an aura of being light-footed,
is directly attributed to the well-defined space of vacuity,
that is bounded by your skull.
The Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement
given to the Senate Committee of Foreign Relations
April 23, 1971, by Lt. John F. Kerry was a synopsis
of what had occurred at the Winter Soldier Investigation.
The content was not created by Kerry; therefore
the veracity of your allegation that Kerry lied in
"Every word of his testimony to congress about war crimes"
does not rely on whether the actions of American soldiers in
Vietnam which were alleged within Kerry's statement were truthful
or not, but instead on whether Kerry's statement was in fact,
a fair synopsis of the testimony given at
the Winter Soldier Investigation.
On that count, there is no doubt that Kerry spoke truthfully.
Not one witness in the Winter Soldier Investigation, January 31,
1971, February 1 and 2, 1971 has ever proven to have been a
non-Vietnam Veteran. One, Al Hubbard, lied about his being an
officer, but had in fact been an elisted member of the military,
and had served in Vietnam. No other witness has ever been proven
to have been false.
Yet you stated that every one of them were non Vet street bums.
I reiterate; EVERYONE OF THEM
The names of the witnesses in the Winter Soldier Investigation
are in the public domain; as the whole testimony was entered into
The Congressional Daily Record
by Oregon Senator Mark Hatfield
April 5, 1971
It is also available online, published by the 60' Project
and hosted on University of Virginia servers.
Winter Soldier Investigation
Testimony given in Detroit, Michigan,
on January 31, 1971, February 1 and 2, 1971
<http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primar
y/Winter_Soldier/WS_entry.html>
TinyUrl to home page: <http://tinyurl.com/2qymp>
Every person who testified during the Winter Soldier Investigation
gave their name,
their rank,
their unit, and
the dates that they served in Vietnam.
Again, this is public knowledge, available to everyone.
Provide factual data to back up your claim that all of the
"witnesses were later proven
to be street bums who had never served"
You, of course, certainly know that you cannot do this, so let me
ask the question in a simpler manner, exactly which individuals
who testified at the Winter Sodier Investigation are you able to
provide even a shred of evidence that they were in fact:
"street bums who had never served"
How many can you name?
Can you even provide evidence for one of them?
If you cannot, then I say:
*****-off partisan puke;
may your descendants
urinate upon
the memorial of your death.
----
JimEeee
come out,
come out
and play,
wherever you are...
Good work. Now watch Jim Excrement fail as usual.
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
24 Jul 2007 06:13:56 AM |
|
|
wrote:
On Jul 23, 10:42 pm, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
last_p...@rogers.com wrote:
An estimated 1 million people were imprisoned without formal charges
or trials.
165,000 people died in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam's re-
education camps, according to published academic studies in the United
States and Europe.
Hey pony boy! when are you going to learn how to
respond to the subject which in this case has to do
with Kerry's lies before congress.
I am not bound by whatever you think the subject is. Some posted
irrelevant material to alt.education. I choose to make it a matter of
education, which among other things includes looking at them in a way
that is different from how they have already been looked at.
Kerry is a member of the club, by virtue of the people who elected
him. He is entitled to use whatever political tactics he wishes
within that club.
Of course the evidence that Kerry was lying is lacking. All you did
was juxtapose your interpretation of events with Kerry's statement.
You provided no context as to when Kerry made that statement, and
certainly not evidence that his pronoun referred to your peculiar
version of history.
And that isn't counting civilians killed.
While I deplore 165,000 people killed in re-education camps, it is a
helluva lot less than the 1 million that were killed in the war, and
the million more it might have taken for us to "win" the war if it was
even possible to win it
Now where did you find that bit of nonsense?
I provided a cite on the number of military deaths and wounded in the
war, which had been inconclusive while we were still participating.
You snipped it.
(at which point the South Vietnamese would
have probably killed just as many communists in their own version of
"re-education camps".
You are so full of ***** it flows through your ears.
Where were you 35 years ago?
In college, luckily with a high draft number.
All you can do is drag red herring across the post
to distract people from the topic so your National
Social Democrat Party (fascist) cannot be
embarrassed
So your logic is: I disagree with some aspects of the opinions of a
probably-right-wing rabble-rouser, therefore I am a member of the
Nazis?
Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Prominent Democratic officeholders are willing
to deny or countenancecrimes against humanity in
order to justify a popular political position.
Pick your profile, pony boy.
No.
There are three types of people that you can_not_talk
into behaving well.
And you define "behaving well" as following your peculiar ideological
position in lockstep.
The stupid, the religious fanatic, and the evil.
That leaves me out.
1- The stupid aren't smart enough to follow the logic
of what you say.
That presumes that you are talking "logic", and that the assumptions
you are working from aren't even more stupid than those you are
accusing with that word.
You have to tell them what is right in very simple terms.
That presumes that you know what is right. Your evidence is lacking.
If they don't agree, then you'll never be able to change their mind.
My, my. Such defeatism!
Actually, the stupid can be converted by marketing and entertainment.
Just look at what Rush has accomplished.
2- the religious fanatic
If what you say goes against their religious belief,
they will cling to that religious belief even if it
means their death."
I am sure that there are people that fanatic. But your stated goal
was to affect their behavior, not their belief.
3- There is no way to reform evil-
Not in a million years
So much for the doctrine of original sin and the plan of redemption.
But I guess those are ideas of "religious fanatics".
There is no way to convince the terrorists, serial
killers, pedophiles, and predators to change their evil
ways. They knew what they were doing was wrong, but
that knowledge didn't stop them. It only made them more
careful in how they went about performing their evil
acts.
And how is all this relevant to anything I wrote or to anything Kerry
said - or anything else for that matter?
lojbab
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
24 Jul 2007 11:25:28 AM |
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In article <1185241426.012953.277300@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> writes:
Prominent Democratic officeholders are willing to
deny or countenance crimes against humanity in
order to justify a popular political position.
Doesn't this shock the conscience of Democrats?
By JAMES TARANTO
'It Didn't Happen'
We suppose it was inevitable: Four and a half years after Congress
authorized the liberation of Iraq,
The, um, the what of Iraq? Must be a bad connnection.
*PLONK*
-- cary
.
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| User: "SueDoeCyAnts" |
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| Title: Re: KERRY:"IT DIDN'T HAPPEN"- What a Lying Scoundrel |
25 Jul 2007 01:43:00 AM |
|
|
on Mon 23 Jul 2007 06:43:46p
posted
in news:1185241426.012953.277300@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:
John Kerry, junior senator from Massachusetts. Some say he
looks French, others call him haughty. But everyone agrees on
one thing: He served in Vietnam.
After returning from a tour of duty that lasted an astonishing
four months, Kerry also became an antiwar activist. In 1971
Kerry testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee
that the Vietnamese were a simple people, too simple to care
about freedom or oppression:
We found most people didn't even know the difference between
communism and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice
paddies without helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm
burning their villages and tearing their country apart.
Kerry's side prevailed. In 1973 the U.S. withdrew its troops
from Vietnam, and in 1975 Congress, its Democratic majority
expanded by the post-Watergate election of 1974, voted to cut
off aid to the South Vietnamese government. That year Saigon
fell to the communists.
Still spinning the distortions after 3 decades plus. When when
declassified documents in the interim show that Nixon/Kissinger
had already given up Vietnam by December, 1970. Kissinger gave Red
China Prime Misister Chou Enlai an approximate fucking timeline
for the necessary interval needed for 'A Decent Interval' between
US disengagement, and N Vietnam's takeover.
Here's a brief bit of documentation of Nixon/Kissinger actions.
From the diary of Nixon's Chief of staff, H. R. "Bob" Haldeman
--------["
December 21, 1970
Personal Diary of H.R. Haldeman
Henry was in for a while and the President discussed a
possible trip for next year. He's thinking about going
to Vietnam in April [1971] or whenever we decide to
make the basic end-of-the-war announcement. His idea
would be to tour around the country, build up [South
Vietnamese President Nguyen Van] Thieu and so forth,
and then make the announcement right afterwards.
Henry argues against a commitment that early to
withdraw all combat troops because he feels that if we
pull them out by the end of '71, trouble can start
mounting in '72 that we won't be able to deal with,
and which we'll have to answer for at the elections.
He prefers instead a commitment to have them all out
by the end of '72 so that we won't have to deliver
finally until after the [US presidential] elections
[in November 1972] and therefore can keep our flanks
protected. This would certainly seem to make more
sense, and the President seemed to agree in general,
but he wants Henry to work up plans on it.
"]--------
In Deceber, 1970, Nixon/Kissinger had already given up on Vietnam,
but for political concerns regarding Nixon's re-election, still 23
months away, decided it was best to keep bleeding American GIs,
S.Vietnamese alliess, The NVA and the VC, as well as the deaths
caused bombing of Cambodia and Laos. NMote how they talked of
scheduling the announcement, as if it was a book publication tour.
Fucking cold-hearted, balcked-souled realists. I again note the
date of this conversation, December 21, 1970, because the Winter
Soldier Investigation was still five weeks in the future, January
31, 1971, February 1 and 2, 1971.
Now Two White House transcripts of Nixon tapes:
--------["
Oval Office Conversation #456-5 Transcript
February 23, 1971 10:05 am - 11:30 am Location: Oval
Office
Henry A. Kissinger: I have always thought that we
should go this year to the North Vietnamese and tell
them we’ll get everybody out in fifteen months in
return for a total cease fire for that period and the
prisoners, but frankly, it’s six months too early. I
thought we should do it after the election.
President Nixon: It’s all got to be out by
the summer of ‘72.
Kissinger: That’s right. That’s 15 months from now.
"]--------
--------["
Oval Office Conversation #471-2 Transcript
March 19, 1971
7:03 pm - 7:27 pm
President Nixon: I’ve never been much for negotiation,
but I think when we finally get down to the nut
cutting, it’s very much to their advantage to have a
negotiation to get us the hell out and-and give us
those prisoners.
Henry A. Kissinger: That’s right. That’s why-
President Nixon: And we’ve got to do it. And you know
if they-if they’ll make that kind of a deal, we’ll
make that any time they’re ready.
Kissinger: Well, we’ve got to get enough time to get
out. It’s got to be because-
President Nixon: Oh, I understand.
Kissinger: -we have to make sure that they don’t knock
the whole place over.
President Nixon: I don’t mean [unclear-overlapping
voices.] What?
Kissinger: Our problem is that if we get out after all
the suffering we’ve gone through-
President Nixon: And then have it knocked over, oh
[unclear]-
Kissinger: We can’t have it knocked over
BRUTALLY-TO PUT IT BRUTALLY,
before the election.
President Nixon: That’s right.
"]--------
By March 19, 1971, Nixon/Kissinger had decided to shoot for a late
1972 withdrawal, to protect their own asses in case South Vietnam
folded like a deck o fcards right after American disengagement,
and ruined Nixon's re-election campaign in the process.
Again I reinterate March 19, 1971, because the Vietnam Veterans
Against the War big protest in Washington D.C., Dewey Canyon III
ocurred April 19 through April 23, 1971. John Kerry's speech
before the Senate happened April 22, 1971.
Now on to the blatant treachery. Kissinger met Chinese Prime
Minister Chou Enlai secretly in Beijing, June 20, 1972. The
ranscript of this meeting was squirreled away for over 30yrs, and
Kissinger had still fought its release, arguing instead that it be
kept secret util five years after his death. Given the
implications, it's no wonder he wanted to be long buried before it
became public knowledege.
The document is available from the NSA archives, and is titled,
"Memorandum of Conversation with Zhou Enlai, 20 June 1972" The
Vietnam discussion is printed pages 27-37.
<http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB193/HAK%206-20-
72.pdf>
In it Kissinger stated that the Nixon Adminsitration had no
fundamental problem with a unified by the North Vietnam, but the
the US could be seen taking an overt active role in the South's
defeat:
--------["
They have asked us...there's only one demand they
have made we have not met and cannot meet and will not
meet, no matter what the price to our other
relationships, and that is that we overthrow ourselves
the people with whom we have been dealing and who, in
reliance on us, have taken certain actions. This isn't
because of any particular personal liking for any of
the individuals concerned. It isn't because we want a
pro-American government in Saigon. Why in the name of
God would we want a pro-American government in Saigon
when we can live with governments that are not
pro-American in much bigger countries of Asia? It is
because a country cannot be asked to engage in major
acts of betrayal as a basis of its foreign policy.
"]--------
In response to a Chou question, Kissinger laid out an approximate
timeline which was necessary between US Disengagement, and North
takeover:
--------["
Prime Minister Chou: If after you withdraw and the
prisoners of war are repatriated, if after that, civil
war again breaks out in Vietnam, what will you do? It
will probably be difficult for you to answer that.
Dr. Kissinger: It is difficult for me to answer partly
because I don't want to give encouragement for this to
happen. But let me answer it according to my best
judgment. For example, if our May 8 proposal were
accepted, which has a four-month withdrawal and four
months for exchange of prisoners, if in the fifth
month the war starts again, it is quite possible we
would say this was just a trick to get us out and we
cannot accept this.
If the North Vietnamese, on the other hand, engage in
a serious negotiation with the South Vietnamese, and
if after a longer period it starts again after we were
all disengaged, my personal judgment is that it is
much less likely that we will go back again, much less
likely.
"]--------
The reason for this South Vietnamese back stabbing by
Nixon/Kissinger was that it interferred wiht countries they felt
they had more important business with:
--------["
And therefore, we believe that the war must now be
ended for everybody's sake. If the war continues, the
Democratic Republic of Vietnam will surely lose more
than it can possibly gain. Its military offensive has
stopped; its domestic situation is difficult; and we
are forced to do things to the Democratic Republic of
Vietnam that go beyond anything that is commensurate
with our objective. We don't want them to be weak. And
I see no prospect for them to reverse the situation.
And we want to end the war because it requires now an
effort out of proportion to the objectives and because
it involves us in discussions with countries with whom
we have much more important business.
[. . .]
So we should find a way to end the war, to stop it
from being an international situation, and then permit
a situation to develop in which the future of
Indochina can be returned to the Indochinese people.
And I can assure you that this is the only object we
have in Indochina, and I do not believe this can be so
different from yours. We want nothing for ourselves
there. And while we cannot bring a communist
government to power, if, as a result of historical
evolution it should happen over a period of time, if
we can live with a communist government in China, we
ought to be able to accept it in Indochina.
The Prime Minister caught me on a particularly
loquacious day. (Laughter)
"]--------
Also a particularly treasonous day for Dr. Kissinger, for which
the date again has relevance, as Kissinger's admission the the
North Vietnamese were not an American enemy, came one month befor
Fonda's nasty trip to Hanoi.
Now on to August, 1972, and th elast Nixon transcript:
--------["
Oval Office Conversation #760-6 Transcript
August 3, 1972 8:28am - 8:57am Location: Oval Office
President Richard M. Nixon: Let’s be perfectly
cold-blooded about it. If you look at it from the
standpoint of our game with the Soviets and the
Chinese, from the standpoint of running this country,
I think we could take, in my view, almost anything,
frankly, that we can force on [South Vietnamese
President Nguyen Van] Thieu. Almost anything. I just
come down to that. You know what I mean? Because I
have a feeling we would not be doing, like I feel
about the Israeli, I feel that in the long run we’re
probably not doing them an in-uh, a disfavor due to
the fact that I feel that the North Vietnamese are so
badly hurt that the South Vietnamese are probably
gonna do fairly well [unclear-overlapping voices].
Also due to the fact-because I look at the tide of
history out there, South Vietnam probably can never
even survive anyway. I’m just being perfectly
candid-I-
Henry A. Kissinger: In the pull-out area-
President Nixon:[Unclear-overlapping voices] got to
[unclear-overlapping voices] that we can get certain
guarantees so that they aren’t, uh, as you know,
looking at the foreign policy process, though, I mean,
you’ve got to be-we also have to realize, Henry, that
winning an election is terribly important. It’s
terribly important this year, but can we have a viable
foreign policy if a year from now or two years from
now, North Vietnam gobbles up South Vietnam. That’s
the real question.
Kissinger: If a year or two years from now North
Vietnam gobbles up South Vietnam, we can have a viable
foreign policy if it looks as if it’s the result of
South Vietnamese incompetence. If we now sell out in
such a way that, say, within a three - to four - month
period, we have pushed President Thieu over the
brink-we ourselves-I think, there is going to be-even
the Chinese won’t like that. I mean, they’ll pay
verbal-verbally, they’ll like it-
President Nixon: But it’ll worry them.
Kissinger: But it will worry everybody. And
domestically in the long run it won’t help us all that
much because our opponents will say we should’ve done
it three years ago.
President Nixon: I know.
Kissinger: So we’ve got to find some formula that
holds the thing together a year or two, after
which-after a year, Mr. President, Vietnam will be a
backwater. If we settle it, say, this October, by
January ’74 no one will give a damn.
"]--------
Even after this data is publicly available, James Taranto, an
odious political hack who is lucky he even has a job writting
op/eds, even a scummy position like the WSJ opinion section, is
still pitching the old lies about Vietnam, and they are still
being regurgitated by repeat-a-cons. Nothing changes.
The only question left to discern where the poster,
, fits into the GOPs use of sodomy with a
blunt instrument as an interrogation methology, and act of
conservative compassion.
So tell me, , in the scheme of
The Official Abu Ghraib Interrogators' Model
Chemnical Light Stick of GOP Enlightenment
Are you a giver, receiver, or like so many contemporary
conservatives, and bipartisan when it comes to things being
shoved-up asses, and are a switch hitter?
.
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