| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"Dom" |
| Date: |
08 Jul 2007 10:19:02 AM |
| Object: |
Math guru critical of county's math curriculum |
http://www.gazette.net/stories/070407/prinsch174932_32360.shtml
Wednesday, July 4, 2007
Math guru critical of county's math curriculum
Board of Eduction member also concerned about math lessons
by Dennis Carter | Staff Writer
The question was straightforward: What is 9x8?
Prince George's school board member Pat Fletcher (Dist. 3) of Landover
posed the question to a group of middle school students last spring.
Six of about 25 students could answer the question right away,
Fletcher said.
Troubled by the response, Fletcher mentioned the incident at a meeting
with a longtime University of Maryland math professor and the Prince
George's school board. Both parties were shocked to hear a math
coordinator at the meeting say that county students should have a
"sense" of what 9x8 is, according to a document released at the June
26 state school board meeting.
Jerome Dancis, a university math professor for more than 30 years
until retiring in 2005, and a critic of the state's math curriculum,
met with county math coordinators and schools officials in April to
discuss math improvement.
"A math coordinator said that not all students can memorize the
multiplication tables, implying that since some cannot, none should be
required to do it," Dancis wrote in a critical review.
Dancis did not save his critiques for Prince George's - he criticized
the state's algebra exam, which allows students to use calculators. He
said that policy would be a setback for students when they reach
college.
"Again, this is a very good strategy if the goal is just to have
students pass the [state's algebra test]," Dancis wrote. "This is a
counterproductive strategy if a goal is to have students avoid
remedial [math courses] when they enter college."
Using calculators on algebra exams, he said, "allows students'
arithmetic skills to get rusty" and "covers up students' lack of
fluency in arithmetic."
Prince George's saw improvements in Maryland School Assessments (MSA)
math scores this year. While middle school math scores remain well
below the state average, the overall math proficiency score shot up to
60 percent, up 7 percentage points from 2006 and 12 percent from 2005.
In the 2006 High School Assessments (HSA), which Maryland high school
seniors will be required to pass by 2009 in order to obtain a diploma,
46.2 percent of county students passed the exam's algebra portion.
Forty-two percent of African-American students passed the algebra HSA
exam in Prince George's. This year's results are expected to be
released in mid-August.
Dancis, a Greenbelt resident for more than 30 years, said his concerns
about the county's math lessons were spurred by his children's time in
the school system. All three of his children graduated from Prince
George's schools.
In his memo released to the state board last month, Dancis said even
the upper echelon of Prince George's math students would struggle when
they enter college. Among the county's most advanced math students,
Dancis wrote, 44 percent took remedial math classes when they enrolled
in a Maryland college or university in 2004. Dancis found that 53
percent of advanced African-American math students needed remedial
college math.
"The county has a problem," Dancis said in an interview with The
Gazette. "A massive number of their better graduates need to take
remedial math in college."
Fletcher said she expected more students to be able to answer her math
question because of her experience with multiplication tables as a
student.
"I couldn't understand that coming from the old school of times
tables," she said. "It's something we should improve on."
E-mail Dennis Carter at dcarter@gazette.net.
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Math guru critical of county's math curriculum |
08 Jul 2007 05:07:55 PM |
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Dom <DRosa@teikyopost.edu> wrote:
"A math coordinator said that not all students can memorize the
multiplication tables, implying that since some cannot, none should be
required to do it," Dancis wrote in a critical review.
That's the rules. Unless a kid is special ed and has exceptions
documented in an IEP, all kids MUST be held to the same standards.
One can *encourage* kids to go beyond the minimum, but not require it.
You know "equal protection under the law". That means that everyone
gets judged by the same standards, or some will sue ... and win.
"This is a
counterproductive strategy if a goal is to have students avoid
remedial [math courses] when they enter college."
When did the legislature make that a goal?
"We the people" through our elected representatives have said that the
primary goal of students is to enable them to pass state standards
test. All else is secondary, and most is optional. Got a problem
with this? Then convince "we the people" to want something else.
Good luck.
lojbab
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| User: "Pubkeybreaker" |
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| Title: Re: Math guru critical of county's math curriculum |
09 Jul 2007 12:24:36 PM |
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Dom wrote:
http://www.gazette.net/stories/070407/prinsch174932_32360.shtml
Wednesday, July 4, 2007
Math guru critical of county's math curriculum
Board of Eduction member also concerned about math lessons
by Dennis Carter | Staff Writer
The question was straightforward: What is 9x8?
Prince George's school board member Pat Fletcher (Dist. 3) of Landover
posed the question to a group of middle school students last spring.
Six of about 25 students could answer the question right away,
The question itself also reveals ignorance on the part of the poser.
The question should not be: "What is 9x8?".
A *properly posed* mathematical question would ask:
If the domain is the real numbers, what real number [or integer]
*equals* 9x8?
Valid answers to the original question might include
"9x8 is an integer"
"9x8 is the product of two integers"
"9x8 is a real number".
"2, if the domain is Z/7Z"
etc.
If the poser, hearing one of these latter responses, then says "Yes,
but
which number?", one might say "that was not the question asked".
One needs *specificity*, and this was lacking in the original
question.
Part of posing a problem should be stating the DOMAIN in which the
problem arises.
Yes, I am being pedantic. But part of learning mathematics needs to
include learning how to pose unambiguous questions. Half of solving a
problem in math is posing the right question. Math is a language in
which
it is possible to state *precisely* what is intended. But this aspect
of
math is hardly ever taught in our schools because the teachers
themselves
only have a "hand waving" understanding of what they are doing.
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| User: "Barb Knox" |
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| Title: Re: Math guru critical of county's math curriculum |
11 Jul 2007 07:16:07 PM |
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In article <1184001876.498218.160100@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
Pubkeybreaker <pubkeybreaker@aol.com> wrote:
Dom wrote:
http://www.gazette.net/stories/070407/prinsch174932_32360.shtml
Wednesday, July 4, 2007
Math guru critical of county's math curriculum
Board of Eduction member also concerned about math lessons
by Dennis Carter | Staff Writer
The question was straightforward: What is 9x8?
Prince George's school board member Pat Fletcher (Dist. 3) of Landover
posed the question to a group of middle school students last spring.
Six of about 25 students could answer the question right away,
The question itself also reveals ignorance on the part of the poser.
The question should not be: "What is 9x8?".
A *properly posed* mathematical question would ask:
If the domain is the real numbers, what real number [or integer]
*equals* 9x8?
Valid answers to the original question might include
"9x8 is an integer"
"9x8 is the product of two integers"
"9x8 is a real number".
"2, if the domain is Z/7Z"
etc.
"Properly posing" an unambiguous question is even trickier than you
think. Consider "What integer equals 9x8?"
Some legal but unwanted answers are:
"Three score and twelve"
"Eight zero base nine"
"LXXII"
Tightening the question to "What base-ten integer equals 9x8?" still
allows the unwanted:
"Zwei und Siebsig"
We certainly do not want to have to say something as cumbersome as "What
base-ten integer, expressed as a sequence of digits without leading
zeroes, equals 9x8? (And even this relies on the implicit convention
that the sequence is "big endian".)
If the poser, hearing one of these latter responses, then says
"Yes, but which number?", one might say "that was not the question
asked". One needs *specificity*, and this was lacking in the
original question.
Part of posing a problem should be stating the DOMAIN in which the
problem arises.
Yes, I am being pedantic. But part of learning mathematics needs to
include learning how to pose unambiguous questions.
Which as shown above is very tricky. A lot of what passes for explicit
non-ambiguity actually relies on implicit conventions, such as what the
"simplest form" is.
Half of solving a
problem in math is posing the right question. Math is a language in
which it is possible to state *precisely* what is intended. But this
aspect of math is hardly ever taught in our schools because the teachers
themselves only have a "hand waving" understanding of what they are doing.
--
---------------------------
| BBB b \ Barbara at LivingHistory stop co stop uk
| B B aa rrr b |
| BBB a a r bbb | Quidquid latine dictum sit,
| B B a a r b b | altum viditur.
| BBB aa a r bbb |
-----------------------------
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Math guru critical of county's math curriculum |
12 Jul 2007 11:39:04 AM |
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On Jul 11, 7:16 pm, Barb Knox <s...@sig.below> wrote:
In article <1184001876.498218.160...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
Pubkeybreaker <pubkeybrea...@aol.com> wrote:
Dom wrote:
http://www.gazette.net/stories/070407/prinsch174932_32360.shtml
Wednesday, July 4, 2007
Math guru critical of county's math curriculum
Board of Eduction member also concerned about math lessons
by Dennis Carter | Staff Writer
The question was straightforward: What is 9x8?
A high school boy with whom I was speaking just this week knew the
value of 72; unfortunately, I had just asked him for the product of 7
times 8. I say: VIVA THE OLD MULTIPLICATION TABLE!!
Regards,
Grover Hughes retired engineer, Sandia National Laboratories
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| User: "Rowley" |
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| Title: Re: Math guru critical of county's math curriculum |
08 Jul 2007 08:05:16 PM |
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Dom wrote:
http://www.gazette.net/stories/070407/prinsch174932_32360.shtml
Wednesday, July 4, 2007
Math guru critical of county's math curriculum
Board of Eduction member also concerned about math lessons
by Dennis Carter | Staff Writer
The question was straightforward: What is 9x8?
I give up - what's the answer..... just kidding = 72 (3x8=24 24x3=72,
least that's how I did it in my head just now).
Prince George's school board member Pat Fletcher (Dist. 3) of Landover
posed the question to a group of middle school students last spring.
Six of about 25 students could answer the question right away,
Fletcher said.
How many of them "knew" the answer and just thought it was a dumb
question to ask and didn't answer?
Troubled by the response, Fletcher mentioned the incident at a meeting
with a longtime University of Maryland math professor and the Prince
George's school board.
Why was this math professor meeting with the school board?
Both parties were shocked to hear a math
coordinator at the meeting say that county students should have a
"sense" of what 9x8 is, according to a document released at the June
26 state school board meeting.
My guess is most of the students did and just didn't answer or just
didn't care enough to actually attempt to solve the problem. Ask the
same group the same question, but this time tell them that a correct
answer would get them movie tickets or something - then see how many of
them could come up with the correct answer.
I just don't understand why some people can't accept or recognize the
fact that with some kids you need to provide motivation for them to take
an active part in education.
Jerome Dancis, a university math professor for more than 30 years
until retiring in 2005, and a critic of the state's math curriculum,
met with county math coordinators and schools officials in April to
discuss math improvement.
Why? does he seriously think he can fix something and make it work better?
Have him spend a couple years actually teaching in a regular public school.
"A math coordinator said that not all students can memorize the
multiplication tables, implying that since some cannot, none should be
required to do it," Dancis wrote in a critical review.
Is memorization the way to go? I never really got into memorizing the
multiplication tables - and instead just liked to work the problems out
in my head.
Dancis did not save his critiques for Prince George's - he criticized
the state's algebra exam, which allows students to use calculators. He
said that policy would be a setback for students when they reach
college.
How many of those twenty-five middle schoolers are going to eventually
end up going to college? And how many of them that do are going to have
problems with math?
Just how serious is this "problem"? How many students entering college
this year are having to take an remedial math class? 100%, somewhere
between 100% and 50%? or less than 50%? It would be nice to see some
actual numbers and not just base any action on the advice of one
concerned retiree.
"Again, this is a very good strategy if the goal is just to have
students pass the [state's algebra test]," Dancis wrote. "This is a
counterproductive strategy if a goal is to have students avoid
remedial [math courses] when they enter college."
Despite the fact that public schools constantly tell their students,
"You need to go to college...." - it is not really mandatory that they
do (go to college). The goal of the state standardize testing is to see
what students have learned in public school - not to be a college
entrance exam.
What about these hs student's Advanced Placement test scores - what were
those like? How many of these students took the AP test? Just curious.
Why is such a bad thing that some students might have to take some
remedial class their first year of college. Is it a stigma thing where
the other college students are making fun of these students?
Using calculators on algebra exams, he said, "allows students'
arithmetic skills to get rusty" and "covers up students' lack of
fluency in arithmetic."
But the students like using them instead of doing the work long hand.
Prince George's saw improvements in Maryland School Assessments (MSA)
math scores this year. While middle school math scores remain well
below the state average, the overall math proficiency score shot up to
60 percent, up 7 percentage points from 2006 and 12 percent from 2005.
In the 2006 High School Assessments (HSA), which Maryland high school
seniors will be required to pass by 2009 in order to obtain a diploma,
46.2 percent of county students passed the exam's algebra portion.
Forty-two percent of African-American students passed the algebra HSA
exam in Prince George's. This year's results are expected to be
released in mid-August.
Dancis, a Greenbelt resident for more than 30 years, said his concerns
about the county's math lessons were spurred by his children's time in
the school system. All three of his children graduated from Prince
George's schools.
Wonder why he waited till after the kids graduated to complain.
In his memo released to the state board last month, Dancis said even
the upper echelon of Prince George's math students would struggle when
they enter college. Among the county's most advanced math students,
Dancis wrote, 44 percent took remedial math classes when they enrolled
in a Maryland college or university in 2004. Dancis found that 53
percent of advanced African-American math students needed remedial
college math.
Less than 50% in one group and just slightly above for AA students -
where did he dig up these statistics? How many of the students coming in
from other school districts needed to take the remedial math classes? Or
the out-of-state students?
And am I reading this right - these are all "the county's most advanced
math students"? someone is saying that 50% of the most advanced math
students in the country are having to take remedial classes.
Again, I'm wondering how many of these kids that are needing these
remedial math classes took and passed the Advanced Placement test. I
know we had a lot of students taking these tests here this year (more so
than any previous year - or so I heard) and we're just a rural school
district.
http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/subjects.html
"The county has a problem," Dancis said in an interview with The
Gazette. "A massive number of their better graduates need to take
remedial math in college."
Their better graduates..... yeah, I say there is a problem.
Fletcher said she expected more students to be able to answer her math
question because of her experience with multiplication tables as a
student.
And when exactly was that? 40+ years ago. Times change, people's
perspective change. I seriously doubt that Ms. Fletcher really remembers
what it was like to be a kid at that age and asked a question like she
asked. My guess is she might have been one of the few that threw her
hand up and answered - but the rest of her peers would have stayed
silent too.
"I couldn't understand that coming from the old school of times
tables," she said. "It's something we should improve on."
The results would be the same.
Martin
E-mail Dennis Carter at dcarter@gazette.net.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Math guru critical of county's math curriculum |
09 Jul 2007 05:01:38 AM |
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Rowley <industry3dREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote:
Just how serious is this "problem"? How many students entering college
this year are having to take an remedial math class?
It would also be nice to know how they define "remedial math". In the
old days when most kids took *no more than* 1st year algebra, math
expectations in college were probably somewhat lower than they are
now. Comparing a first year college math textbook from 1940 with one
from the present would undoubtedly be an eye opener.
In his memo released to the state board last month, Dancis said even
the upper echelon of Prince George's math students would struggle when
they enter college. Among the county's most advanced math students,
Dancis wrote, 44 percent took remedial math classes when they enrolled
in a Maryland college or university in 2004. Dancis found that 53
percent of advanced African-American math students needed remedial
college math.
Less than 50% in one group and just slightly above for AA students -
where did he dig up these statistics? How many of the students coming in
from other school districts needed to take the remedial math classes? Or
the out-of-state students?
And am I reading this right - these are all "the county's most advanced
math students"? someone is saying that 50% of the most advanced math
students in the country are having to take remedial classes.
I suspect that the definition of "remedial classes" is politically
convenient.
A math professor might even consider someone who passed AP calculus
but who has to retake calculus in college as taking "remedial
classes".
More realistically, a kid who has taken a precalculus class in high
school, but who then has to take some preparatory class before taking
calculus is a mite bit different from a kid who has to take the
non-credit "bonehead math" that would allow him to take a college
level algebra class.
Back in the day, of course, they didn't use math placement tests in
most schools. If a kid had passed algebra in high school, he was
presumed to not need algebra in college. The only placement test I
took on entering college was in foreign language, and that was
optional.
lojbab
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| User: "Pubkeybreaker" |
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| Title: Re: Math guru critical of county's math curriculum |
09 Jul 2007 12:28:54 PM |
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Rowley wrote:
Dom wrote:
My guess is most of the students did and just didn't answer or just
didn't care enough to actually attempt to solve the problem. Ask the
same group the same question, but this time tell them that a correct
answer would get them movie tickets or something - then see how many of
them could come up with the correct answer.
Yes!! But a major part of the problem with today's education is that
they
*SHOULD* care. The fact that they don't can be blamed mostly on
parents.
(although lousy teachers contribute as well)
Parents should be responsible for motivating in their children the
idea that
education is important, and that much of their success in life (or
lack thereof)
will derive from their education. But too many parents are failing in
this duty.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Math guru critical of county's math curriculum |
09 Jul 2007 06:29:22 PM |
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Pubkeybreaker <pubkeybreaker@aol.com> wrote:
Rowley wrote:
Dom wrote:
My guess is most of the students did and just didn't answer or just
didn't care enough to actually attempt to solve the problem. Ask the
same group the same question, but this time tell them that a correct
answer would get them movie tickets or something - then see how many of
them could come up with the correct answer.
Yes!! But a major part of the problem with today's education is that
they *SHOULD* care.
Why? Because some oddball professor was visiting and asking a
question? What's in it for them? (That being the question that we've
taught the younger generation is solely important - by example.)
Parents should be responsible for motivating in their children the
idea that education is important,
That isn't the issue. The issue is showing interest enough in a silly
question asked by a strange adult in order to offer to answer it.
A teacher will ask a question in class about just-covered material.
No one raises their hand. Is it because they don't know the answer,
or is it because they don't value education? No, it is because there
is no virtue with peers in raising your hand and volunteering. They
risk being wrong and looking stupid, and they risk getting thought of
as a kiss-up if they are right.
lojbab
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| User: "Rowley" |
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| Title: Re: Math guru critical of county's math curriculum |
09 Jul 2007 01:54:10 PM |
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Pubkeybreaker wrote:
Rowley wrote:
Dom wrote:
My guess is most of the students did and just didn't answer or just
didn't care enough to actually attempt to solve the problem. Ask the
same group the same question, but this time tell them that a correct
answer would get them movie tickets or something - then see how many of
them could come up with the correct answer.
Yes!! But a major part of the problem with today's education is that
they
*SHOULD* care.
They should also do a lot of things - but they (most) don't.
The fact that they don't can be blamed mostly on
parents.
(although lousy teachers contribute as well)
I think that our society in general contributes to this attitude. Heck,
if it wasn't for the fact that someone is giving me a paycheck (which I
need) - there are days when I would probably stay home instead of going
to work.
Parents should be responsible for motivating in their children the
idea that
education is important, and that much of their success in life (or
lack thereof)
will derive from their education. But too many parents are failing in
this duty.
Keep in mind that there are parents who "success" (working a steady job
at Wal-mart) in life doesn't come from needing all that great of an
education.
And you also have examples of people who are HUGE successes despite the
fact that they don't have an education. It's not too hard for students
to see that what baseball player for instance earns and what a teacher
earns is very dissimilar, even though the teacher probably has a better
education than the ball player.
Martin
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| User: "toto" |
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| Title: Re: Math guru critical of county's math curriculum |
14 Jul 2007 03:40:44 PM |
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On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 13:54:10 -0500, Rowley
<industry3dREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote:
And you also have examples of people who are HUGE successes despite the
fact that they don't have an education. It's not too hard for students
to see that what baseball player for instance earns and what a teacher
earns is very dissimilar, even though the teacher probably has a better
education than the ball player.
I wonder what the *average* baseball player makes compared to the
*average* teacher though. Most baseball players are not in the major
leagues. My understanding is that minor league players make
somewhere around $14,000 per year with some kind of meal allowance
added to that. They might make a bit more after they complete their
first season, but it isn't likely to be anywhere near the major league
salaries.
There are a total of 30 (?) major league teams. Lets say each team
has a total of 40 players (there are less actually, I think). That
means there are a total 1200 major league players who make those big
salaries. How many teachers are there in the US? There are many,
many more than 1200 teachers. In fact, there were over 1200 teachers
in my town of 80,000 people.
I know, kids won't do this analysis, but you would think that their
parents might.
Martin
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
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| User: "Rowley" |
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| Title: Re: Math guru critical of county's math curriculum |
14 Jul 2007 05:46:20 PM |
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The point I was trying to make - is that there are examples out there -
and students don't tend to focus on the fact that there is a small ratio
of these kind of "successes" compared to the mundane ones.
Parents are what they are.
Martin
toto wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 13:54:10 -0500, Rowley
<industry3dREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote:
And you also have examples of people who are HUGE successes despite the
fact that they don't have an education. It's not too hard for students
to see that what baseball player for instance earns and what a teacher
earns is very dissimilar, even though the teacher probably has a better
education than the ball player.
I wonder what the *average* baseball player makes compared to the
*average* teacher though. Most baseball players are not in the major
leagues. My understanding is that minor league players make
somewhere around $14,000 per year with some kind of meal allowance
added to that. They might make a bit more after they complete their
first season, but it isn't likely to be anywhere near the major league
salaries.
There are a total of 30 (?) major league teams. Lets say each team
has a total of 40 players (there are less actually, I think). That
means there are a total 1200 major league players who make those big
salaries. How many teachers are there in the US? There are many,
many more than 1200 teachers. In fact, there were over 1200 teachers
in my town of 80,000 people.
I know, kids won't do this analysis, but you would think that their
parents might.
Martin
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
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| User: "Pubkeybreaker" |
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| Title: Re: Math guru critical of county's math curriculum |
09 Jul 2007 02:03:36 PM |
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Rowley wrote:
Pubkeybreaker wrote:
And you also have examples of people who are HUGE successes despite the
fact that they don't have an education. It's not too hard for students
to see that what baseball player for instance earns and what a teacher
earns is very dissimilar, even though the teacher probably has a better
education than the ball player.
YES!!! But the number of such examples is TINY compared to the vast
majority of people who are uneducated. What we have is yet another
example
of innumeracy: drawing a false conclusion (i.e. I can probably make
big bucks
even though I lack an education) based on a small sample. The truth
is that
the "probability" here is very small. Most people lack the education
to realize this!
The result is that people base their expectations on wishful
thinking. Curing them
of wishful thinking also requires... you guessed
it!............... education.
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| User: "Rowley" |
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| Title: Re: Math guru critical of county's math curriculum |
09 Jul 2007 05:42:32 PM |
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Pubkeybreaker wrote:
Rowley wrote:
Pubkeybreaker wrote:
And you also have examples of people who are HUGE successes despite the
fact that they don't have an education. It's not too hard for students
to see that what baseball player for instance earns and what a teacher
earns is very dissimilar, even though the teacher probably has a better
education than the ball player.
YES!!! But the number of such examples is TINY compared to the vast
majority of people who are uneducated. What we have is yet another
example
of innumeracy: drawing a false conclusion (i.e. I can probably make
big bucks
even though I lack an education) based on a small sample. The truth
is that
the "probability" here is very small. Most people lack the education
to realize this!
Yes - most educated and mature people do realize this - problem is, kids
don't tend to fit that description. Doesn't matter to them (kids) that
the number is extremely small - most of them feel that if it could
happen to just one person then there is a chance that it could happen to
me. Now that I think about it, the same is pretty much true for the
people that play the lottery. I could be that 1 in a 55,000,000+ person
to get that one wining ticket...... and of course there sometimes is
that one person.
The result is that people base their expectations on wishful
thinking. Curing them
of wishful thinking also requires... you guessed
it!............... education.
Hmm, I think it takes more than just education - I think it also takes
some experience - some hitting the proverbial brick wall a few times.
Martin
.
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