"Carlos Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net> wrote:
:|Dear Dave,
:|For you to say that the Bible was not an influence on the making of this
:|countries laws is ludicrous. Even an Atheist historian would not make such a
:|foolish claim as yours. I did visit a web site
A WEB SITE? LOL. Well, I am glad you didn't overdo yourself.
:|that buckeye (who is on
:|your side) sent me and I learned something today.
Actually, you didn't learn anything, see below:
:|On this web site (
:|http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm ) it has a list of the
:|forefathers that signed The Declaration of Independence, Articles of
:|Confederation and every delegate to the Constitutional Convention. On this
:|list it has the religious affiliation of the American Founders found in
:|historic documents and I found out (to buckeye's surprise)
Not to my surprise, I am aware of the list you speak of. The difference
between you and me is, I know what it means, and I have provided additional
information that puts it in its correct contect.
:|the following: Of
:|the 117 delegates 79 believed in God. Of those 79 there are 78 to be
:|considered of Christian affiliations as per Wikipedia.com. The remaining 38
:|delegates are considered unknown because of no records to prove a religious
:|affiliation. Interestingly of all the delegates with documented beliefs, 99%
:|are of the Judeo-Christian belief. The other 1%, Thomas Jefferson, was a
:|Deist which acknowledges a Creator. Now of the 38 delegates that lack proof
:|to religious affiliation it is highly likely that they to reflected similar
:|Judeo-Christian beliefs. Isn't this the same method scientist use to
:|conclude that there is intelligence life in other planets even though we
:|have no PROOF.
You didn't learn anything. All you did was expose your own bias and closed
mind.
What you fail to understand about those charts and list is the following.
Most of those men were born and lived in colonies that had established
religions. Thus, as a matter of law, they had to attend public worship in
many cases, be a member of a religion and support that religion
financially.
Therefore, it is not at all unusual to find lists showing that certain men
of the founder era affiliated with this or that church. The opposite would
be very unusual.
Now, if you really wanted to learn something you would have examined all
of the following:
I recommend the following for your enlightenment:
*************************************************
* Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm
The Christian Bible and the Foundations of the U.S.
http://candst.tripod.com/biblfoun.htm
How often did the founders quote the Bible?
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg9.htm
Did Madison ever say that religion is the foundation of government?
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/misq2.htm
Did Montesquieu base his theory of separation of powers on the Bible?
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/montesquieu.htm
*************************************************************
SOME CLAIM THAT THIS ALSO WAS AN INFLUENCE
"Iroquois Confederacy Formed Basis for U.S. Constitution."
Indian Life Magazine 17:1 (March/April, 1996), p. 9.
From: maff91 (maffxx@nospam.my-deja.com)
Subject: Re: Deism's part in American Revolution
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.us-revolution, alt.history.colonial,
alt.religion.christian.presbyterian, alt.religion.deism, alt.atheism
Date: 1999/11/15
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=george+washington++letter+to+magna+carta&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=hn8wONr9XcVZdbY2LyEM3muG1oUK%404ax.com&rnum=9
http://makeashorterlink.com/?M6F0259F8
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maff91 (maffxx@nospam.my-deja.com)
Subject: Re: The Age of Reason
View: Complete Thread (64 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.atheism, alt.religion.angels, alt.religion.goddess,
alt.religion.wicca, alt.witchcraft, sci.skeptic
Date: 1999/10/29
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=maff91,+%22Iroquois+Confederacy+Formed+Basis+for+U.S.+Constitution.&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=yCgaOP2IuMh4bykWdQbm8fN2kpXz%404ax.com&rnum=5&filter=0
http://makeashorterlink.com/?D54142AF8
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ()
Subject: Re: Iroquois League = model for US Constitution?
Newsgroups: alt.native
Date: 2000/07/19
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+Iroquois+Confederacy++U.S.+Constitution.&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=397501a4.38440920%40news.axess.com&rnum=2
http://makeashorterlink.com/?A57115AF8
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Chris (Christopher.Newell@Dartmouth.edu)
Subject: Roots of Constitution in Iroquois Confederacy, Scholars Say
Newsgroups: soc.culture.native, alt.native, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,
alt.politics.clinton
Date: 1994-03-03 07:08:30 PST
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+Iroquois+Confederacy++U.S.+Constitution.&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=2l4uhe%24q6u%40dartvax.dartmouth.edu&rnum=3
http://makeashorterlink.com/?X18112AF8
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HERE IS AN ENTIRE THREAD ON THE SUBJECT
From: ()
Subject: Re: Constitution and Iroquois
alt.politics.usa.constitution, soc.history.war.us-revolution
Date: 2002-11-19 07:34:06 PST
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=653vtu4v69h9ou4vsrhluq85f7t5dfe0cj%404ax.com&rnum=74&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2BIroquois%2BConfederacy%2B%2BU.S.%2BConstitution.%26start%3D70%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26scoring%3Dd%26selm%3D653vtu4v69h9ou4vsrhluq85f7t5dfe0cj%25404ax.com%26rnum%3D74
http://makeashorterlink.com/?C6C132AF8
*****************************************************************
OCTOBER 1789
To the Ministers and Ruling Elders delegated to represent the churches in
Massachusetts and New Hampshire, which compose the First Presbytery of the
Eastward.
The tribute of thanksgiving which you offer to the gracious Father of
lights, for his inspiration of our public councils with wisdom and firmness
to complete the national Constitution, is worthy of men who, devoted to the
pious purposes of religion, desire their accomplishment by such means as
advance the temporal happiness of mankind. And here, I am persuaded, you
will permit me to observe, that the path of true piety is so plain as to
require but little Political attention. To this consideration we ought to
ascribe the absence of any regulation respecting religion from the Magna
Charta [constitution] of our country.
To the guidance of the ministers of the gospel this important object is,
perhaps, more properly committed. It will be your care to instruct tile
ignorant, to reclaim the devious; and in the progress of morality and
science, to which our government will give every furtherance, we may expect
confidently, the advancement of true religion and the completion of
happiness. I pray the munificent rewarder of every virtue, that your agency
in this good work may receive its
compensation here and hereafter.
GEORGE WASHINGTON.
(Unless otherwise indicated originals or original copies of all the George
Washington letters can be found in THE PAPERS OF GEORGE WASHINGTON,
LIBRARY OF CONGRESS, with the proper volume and page number following each
excerpted letter: i.e. Papers, CCCXXXIV, 80.)
(Excerpt from a letter written by G. Washington, October, 1789. GEORGE
WASHINGTON & RELIGION, By Paul F. Boller, JR. Southern Methodist University
Press, Dallas, 1962, pp 180- 181)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following year [1784], when asking Tench Tilghman to secure a
carpenter and a bricklayer for his Mount Vernon estate,
he [Washington] remarked: "If they are good workmen, they may be of
Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mohometans,
Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists." As he told a
Mennonite minister who sought refuge in the United
States after the Revolution: "I had always hoped that this land might
become a safe and agreeable Asylum to the virtuous and
persecuted part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong...."
He was, as John Bell pointed out in 1779, "a total
stranger to religious prejudices, which have so often excited
Christians of one denomination to cut the throats of those of
another." (Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas:
Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, p. 118.
According to Boller, Washington wrote his remarks to Tilghman in a
letter dated March 24, 1784; his remarks to the
Mennonite--Francis Adrian Van der Kemp--were in a letter dated May 28,
1788.)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=george+washington+letter+to+magna+carta&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=zQcWOHLc2ac4XDua2vOZfxPz7t6k%404ax.com&rnum=10
http://makeashorterlink.com/?D261639F8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mike Curtis (mike@x.aimetering.com.nospam)
Subject: Re: George Washington not Christian
Newsgroups: alt.history, alt.history.colonial,
alt.politics.usa.constitution, alt.religion.christian, alt.deism,
alt.religion.deism
Date: 1999/09/09
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=george+washington+letter+to+magna+carta&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=UMnXN%3D07%3DDPwgjdc8%2Bb0db8DvG2g%404ax.com&rnum=19
http://makeashorterlink.com/?E5A1339F8
*******************************************************************
THE MAJOR INFLUENCES ON AMERICA WERE IN THE ODER GIVEN:
From: ()
Subject: Re: Deism
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.us-revolution, alt.history.colonial, alt.deism,
alt.religion.deism, alt.history
Date: 2000/01/16
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2683056965d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=b8948sg1ftt4tf6lii2pf86tvlf3u94na4%404ax.com
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N272429F8
(1) HERITAGE OF CLASSICAL ANTIQUITYeritage of classical antiquity
Knowledge of classical authors was universal among colonists with any
degree of education.
The above appears on page 23
(2) IDEAS AND ATTITUDES ASSOCIATED WITH THE WRITINGS OF
ENLIGHTENMENT RATIONALISM
The above appears on page 26
including the leading secular thinkers of the European Enlightenment.
The above appears on page 27
(3) TRADITION OF LAW, ESPECIALLY ENGLISH COMMON LAW
The above appears on page 30-31 and is paraphrased
(4) POLITICAL AND SOCIAL THEORIES OF NEW ENGLIAND
PURITANISM AND IN GENERAL THE ENTIRE SPECTRUM OF
AMERICAN PROTESTANISM
The above can be found on page 32
and finally:
(5) A fifth area actually helped shape the above and bring it together into
a active force, because many of the above four groups of writings, writers
and thought/philosophies were actually in conflict with each other. That
fifth area was the radical social and political thought of the English
Civil war and the Commonwealth Period. People like Milton, Harrington,
Neville, Sidney.
This discussion can be found beginning on page 33
SOURCE: The Ideological Orgins of the American Revolution, Enlarged
Edition, Bernard Bailyn. The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press,
(1992) pp. 22-37
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeff Sinclair (jeffreysinclair@my-deja.com)
Subject: Gardiner Distorts Bailyn and Smears Allison (Part 1 of 2)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.us-revolution, alt.history.colonial, alt.deism,
alt.religion.deism
Date: 2000/01/16
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Bailyn,+enlightenment,+classical,+secular&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=85rlj1%24sfe%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&rnum=1
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B2F1129F8
From: Jeff Sinclair <jeffreysinclair@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups:
soc.history.war.us-revolution,alt.history.colonial,alt.deism,alt.religion.deism
Subject: Gardiner Distorts Bailyn and Smears Allison (Part 2 of 2)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 05:39:49 GMT
<<Part 2 of 2>>
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2683056965d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=jm268s4vqgolin28ifsmao6toctke2tem6%404ax.com
http://makeashorterlink.com/?X362259F8
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeff Sinclair (jeffreysinclair@my-deja.com)
Subject: Re: The Founders Were Deists? (PART II)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.us-revolution, alt.history.colonial,
sci.skeptic, alt.deism
Date: 2000/01/08
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Bailyn,+enlightenment,+classical,+secular&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=856q2q%244d0%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&rnum=4
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z112219F8
*******************************************************
Study Guide: The Roots of American Democracy
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd8.htm
Roots of American Law
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/histlaw.htm
o The Complete Ten Commandments, a Study Guide
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/10commsg.htm
* Madison's Arguments Against Special Religious Sanction of American
Government
http://candst.tripod.com/madlib.htm
* Treaty of Tripoli, 1796: Little-Known U.S. Document Signed by
President Adams Proclaims America's Government Is Secular
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tripoli1.htm
* A Baptist minister and follow warrior with Jefferson, Madison and
others in the struggle for religious freedom gave this advice about
electing public officials: "...guard against those men who make a great
noise about religion..."
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/leland5.htm
Study Guide: Separation of Church and State - Indepth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm
.
|
