"Cam Kirmser" <ckirmser@xxxkillspamxxxcharter.net> wrote:
:|The Founding Fathers intended this nation to be a religiously NEUTRAL
:|country, not religiously NEUTER.
:|
:|Since a single comment in a letter of Jefferson's has fueled the entire
:|"separation of church and state" faux pas, why does the following not carry
:|any weight?
:|
First of all, Jefferson's letter, while given credit by many as the source
of church state separation in this country, it wasn't.
Church and state were separated in the unamended constitution in 1787.
The religious clauses of the what we call the BORs only reinforced that
separation, it didn't create the separation.
You can find acknowledgement of that separation in historical writings
prior to Jefferson ever writing his letter to the Danbury Baptists.
Study Guide: Separation of Church and State - Indepth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm
:|=======================
:|"Almighty God, Who has given us this good land for our heritage; We humbly
:|beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of Thy
:|favor and glad to do Thy will. Bless our land with honorable ministry, sound
:|learning, and pure manners. Save us from violence, discord, and confusion,
:|from pride and arrogance, and from every evil way. Defend our liberties,
:|and fashion into one united people the multitude brought hither out of many
:|kindreds and tongues. Endow with Thy spirit of wisdom those to whom in Thy
:|Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and
:|peace at home, and that through obedience to Thy law, we may show forth Thy
:|praise among the nations of the earth. In time of prosperity fill our hearts
:|with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee
:|to fail; all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen."
:|=======================
Secondly, the above is bogus.
If you are claiming Jefferson wrote it, he didn't
Some other problematical quotes:
(1). National Prayer
President Thomas Jefferson, March 4, 1805, offered A National Prayer
for Peace:
"Almighty God, Who has given us this good land for our heritage; We
humbly beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of
Thy favor and glad to do Thy will. Bless our land with honorable ministry,
sound learning, and pure manners. Save us from violence, discord, and
confusion, from pride and arrogance, and from every evil way. Defend our
liberties, and fashion into one united people the multitude brought hither
out of many kindreds and tongues. Endow with Thy spirit of wisdom those to
whom in Thy Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be
justice and peace at home, and that through obedience to Thy law, we may
show forth Thy praise among the nations of the earth. In time of prosperity
fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not
our trust in Thee to fail; all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our
Lord, Amen"
The problem with the above is that it isn't true. March 4, 1805 was the
date of Jefferson's Second Inaugural Address and there is no such prayer
included in it. This "prayer" shows up on a number of religious web sites
on line, and is either attributed to Thomas Jefferson, with no other
information or as above "Thomas Jefferson, March 4, 1805". Nowhere is there
a complete valid cite given. You can find his Second Inaugural Address at
Thomas Jefferson, Second Inaugural Address, Monday, March 4, 1805
SOURCE:
Study Guide: Problematical Religious Right Quotes And Arguments
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7d.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:|
:|or, this;
:|
:|=======================
:|"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God."
:|=======================
Yea it was a "motto" he liked in 1776 that he "borrowed."
:|or, this, the inscription on his Memorial;
:|
:|=======================
:|"The God Who gave us life gave us liberty -- can the liberties of a nation
:|be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the
:|gift of God?"
:|=======================
:|
(2). "The God who gave us life gave us liberty
"The God who gave us life gave us liberty... Can the liberties of a
nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a
conviction... That these liberties are the gift of God? The bible is the
cornerstone for American liberty." -Thomas Jefferson
There Are Actually Two Versions of This. The mere fact that there are
two versions of it is a good indication it has problems.
Version #1
"The God who gave us life gave us liberty... Can the liberties of a
nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a
conviction... That these liberties are the gift of God? The bible is the
cornerstone for American liberty." -Thomas Jefferson
Version #2
"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have
removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that
these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated
but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God
is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." Thomas Jefferson
Beginning with the first version:
First problem is that this quote is not cited, i.e., its origin isn't
stated--probably for the reason that it doesn't appear in Thomas
Jefferson's works as quoted. If you break it into pieces, you can find some
of the pieces in Jefferson's works.
[1]"The God who gave us life gave us liberty. . . [2]Can the
liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only
firm basis, a conviction. . . That these liberties are the gift of God?
[3]The bible is the cornerstone for American liberty." -Thomas Jefferson
Part [1]
We can find the first phrase in Jefferson's 1774 publication to the
English king, A Summary View of the Rights of British America. Notice that
by extracting only part of Jefferson's entire phrase, the manufacturer of
this invalid quote, gives it a different slant than Jefferson's original.
Also notice that the rest of the problematic quotation isn't found in the
document.
. . .This, sire, is the advice of your great American council, on
the observance of which may perhaps depend your felicity and future fame,
and the preservation of that harmony which alone can continue both to Great
Britain and America the reciprocal advantages of their connection. It is
neither our wish, nor our interest, to separate from her. We are willing,
on our part, to sacrifice every thing which reason can ask to the
restoration of that tranquillity for which all must wish. On their part,
let them be ready to establish union and a generous plan. Let them name
their terms, but let them be just. Accept of every commercial preference it
is in our power to give for such things as we can raise for their use, or
they make for ours. But let them not think to exclude us from going to
other markets to dispose of those commodities which they cannot use, or to
supply those wants which they cannot supply. Still less let it be proposed
that our properties within our own territories shall be taxed or regulated
by any power on earth but our own. The God who gave us life gave us liberty
at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.
This, sire, is our last, our determined resolution; and that you will be
pleased to interpose with that efficacy which your earnest endeavours may
ensure to procure redress of these our great grievances, to quiet the minds
of your subjects in British America, against any apprehensions of future
encroachment, to establish fraternal love and harmony through the whole
empire, and that these may continue to the latest ages of time, is the
fervent prayer of all British America! . . .
Source of Document: University of Virginia Library Electronic Text
Center Jefferson, Thomas, 1743-1826. A Summary View of the Rights of
British America, p. 122, Electronic Text Center, University of Virginia
Library
Part [2]
[1]"The God who gave us life gave us liberty. . . [2]Can the liberties
of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a
conviction. . . That these liberties are the gift of God? [3]The bible is
the cornerstone for American liberty." -Thomas Jefferson
Part [2], the middle section, does come from a bona fide document
written by Jefferson: Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII,
"Manners". Jefferson was speaking of the evils of slavery, not the virtues
of religious morality. Here is the paragraph from which the quotation
(bolded) is taken:
Excerpt From: Notes on the State of Virginia by Thomas Jefferson
. . .The man must be a prodigy who can retain his manners and
morals undepraved by such circumstances. And with what execrations should
the statesman be loaded who, permitting one half the citizens thus to
trample on the rights of the other, transforms those into despots and these
into enemies, destroys the morals of the one part and the amor patriae of
the other. For if a slave can have a country in this world, it must be any
other in preference to that in which he is born to live and labor for
another: in which he must lock up the faculties of his nature, contribute
as far as depends on his individual endeavors to the evanishment of the
human race or entail his own miserable condition on the endless generations
proceeding from him. With the morals of the people, their industry is also
destroyed. For in a warm climate, no man will labor for himself who can
make another labor for him. This is so true that, of the proprietors of
slaves, a very small proportion are ever seen to labor. And can the
liberties of a nation be thought secure, when we have removed their only
firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties
are the gift of god? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?
Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his
justice can not sleep forever: that considering numbers, nature and natural
means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation
is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural
interference! . . .
Source of Information: American Studies at the University of
Virginia website Notes on The State of Virginia, Thomas Jefferson
Part [3]
"[1]The God who gave us life gave us liberty. . . [2]Can the
liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only
firm basis, a conviction. . . That these liberties are the gift of God? [3]
The bible is the cornerstone for American liberty." -Thomas Jefferson
This final phrase is totally imaginary! It does not appear in A Summary
View of the Rights of British America, nor in Notes on The State of
Virginia. A web search for the quotation shows it only as a part of this
invalid quotation. It does not appear anywhere on the University of
Virginia site on Jefferson's works. Moreover, the phrase is completely
inconsistent with Jefferson's views about the Bible.
Now for the second version
And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have
removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that
these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated
but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God
is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever. Thomas Jefferson
The above is a valid quotation as shown in the Notes on the State of
Virginia extract above. The problem with it is that it is often used to
make some sort of point with regards to Jefferson's religious
beliefs--usually to claim that Jefferson was a orthodox Christian. Quoters
fail to explain that the quotation comes from a section of Notes on The
State of Virginia in which Jefferson was discussing slavery in Virginia and
has nothing to do with Jefferson's religious beliefs..
Source of Document: University of Virginia Library Electronic Text
Center Notes on The State of Virginia, Thomas Jefferson
SOURCE:
Study Guide: Problematical Religious Right Quotes And Arguments
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7d.htm
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:|If Jefferson's "separation" comment was so defining of him, why is it not
:|inscribed in stone on his Memorial?
What is on his "memorial" was selected to be placed there by other men long
after Jefferson had died.
What he wished to be remembered for and wanted placed on his tombstone :
Declaraion of Independence
Virginia Statute for Religions Freedom
University of Virginia
.
|
