(M. Clark) wrote:
:|Billy Goat <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote:
:|
:|> (M. Clark) wrote in message
:|> news:<1g55k33.ayaldo1t1sc4cN%>... > Billy Goat
:|> <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote: > > > (M. Clark)
:|> wrote in message
:|> >
:|> > > > Secularism actually threw the Bible and prayer out of the classroom.
:|> > >
:|> > > The last time I visited a Catholic school classroom, there were plenty
:|> > > of Bibles, and lots of praying. I think you're mistaken.
:|> > >
:|> > > --Billy
:|> >
:|> > "No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
:|> > practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of
:|> > any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary
:|> > School Act, 1817. ME 17:425
:|> >
:|> > M. Clark
:|>
:|> And yet, there is still plenty of religious instruction in religious
:|> classrooms. The Bible and prayer have *not* been kicked out of the
:|> religious classrooms. Just the secular classrooms.
:|
:|Jefferson obviously didn't mention anything about "religious
:|classrooms". The "religious classroom" is your invention.
:|>
:|> Even the above quote by Jefferson doesn't call for a ban of *all*
:|> religious teachings in *all* schools. Just the teachings which are
:|> "inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or denomination".
:|> In other words, your child will never be taught any religious beliefs
:|> that are inconsistent with yours. You should be glad.
:|
:|I'm sure that communites can negotiate on what religious instruction, if
:|any, is taught in community public schools.
:|
:|>
:|> Besides, teaching religion in a secular school would kind of defeat
:|> the purpose of having a secular school in the first place, don't you
:|> think?
:|
:|I think that Jefferson was reasonably talking about religious
:|instruction in public schools. Again, people don't understand that
:|Jefferson wasn't talking about church/state separation for the States.
:|His writings clearly show that he was only referring to the Federal
:|government.
Two writings that you keep posting over and over again. Two writings out of
the thousands of things he wrote and hundreds of letters, etc that he wrote
that referred to religion in some form or fashion.
That is how bankrupt your position is. You can only present an excerpt
from his second Inaugural address and a excerpt from a letter that was
completely about church and state, yet which you only select one excerpt
from.
Jefferson favored church state separation on state level and national
level. He was a strict separationist. However during the years 1787 to
Jefferson's death the church and state separation that had been embodied
in the U S Constitution:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Article. VI.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be
made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made,
under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the
Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in
the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of
the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers,
both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath
or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test
shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust
under the United States.
Article the third [Amendment I] [1]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
did not apply to the states--though the supremacy clause language "could"
have been used at some future time to perhaps apply that separation to the
states. For sure the anti-feds were sure worried about that possibility.
That is the only thing those two excerpts you keep parading in theses
newsgroups means.
JEFFERSON WAS ACKNOWLEDGING THE LAW AS IT EXISTED AT THAT TIME.
Nothing more, nothing less.
That is not the law presently and hasn't been the law for since 1940 for
the Free Exercise Clause and 1947 for the Establishment Clause.
As early as 1789 there was a intent to limit the states
========================================================
FOURTEENTH AMENDMENT
[Selective Incorporation]
========================================================
We could discuss this topic for years. People have been discussing this
topic for years. Thus, we have decided that the best course to take here is
to provide some limited information and a lot of reference material that
others can use. That way those seriously interested in this topic can do
their own research.
The reference material is pretty evenly divided between the pro and con
sides of this issue.
*****************************************
IRONICALLY THE FIRST FOURTEENTH AMENDMENT
On June 8, 1789 James Madison delivered his long awaited list of proposed
amendments to the House of Representatives. After several debates
scattered throughout the summer the following is a partial list of the
amendments that was passed by the House of Representative and sent on to
the Senate.
Note especially Article the Fourteenth. That article, passed by the
necessary number of votes called for selective incorporation against the
state some of the other Articles.
This particular article was defeated in the Senate after secret debate and
a secret vote. It must be remember at this particular point in time in
American History, the House of Representative represented "the people."
It's members were elected directly by the people. The Senate, on the
other hand, represented the states. It's members were selected by the state
legislatures.
It is ironic that this particular Article was numbered fourteen and that it
called for selective incorporation of other amendments in the "BORs
package" against the states. It is interesting that it was passed by "the
people's" representatives, but defeated by the state's representatives. It
is very ironic that another Article also numbered fourteen was passed some
79 or so years later and that it would, in time be used to selectively
incorporate other Articles of the "BORs package" against the states.
****************************************************************
AUGUST 24, 1789--FIRST FEDERAL CONGRESS (Amendments, references to
religion)
House Resolution and Articles of Amendment,
August 24, 1789
CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATE In the HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Monday, 14th August, 1789,
RESOLVED, BY THE SENATE AND HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN CONGRESS ASSEMBLED, two thirds Of both Houses
deeming it necessary, That the following Articles be proposed to the
Legislatures of the several States, as Amendments to the Constitution of
the United States, all or any of which Articles, when ratified by three
fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes
as part of the said Constitution--Viz.
ARTICLES in addition to, and amendment of, the Constitution of the
United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the
Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the
original Constitution.
ARTICLE THE THIRD.
Congress shall make no law establishing religion or prohibiting the free
exercise thereof, nor shall the rights of Conscience be infringed.
ARTICLE THE FOURTH.
The Freedom of Speech, and of the Press, and the right of the People
peaceably to assemble, and consult for their common good, and to apply co
the Government for a redress of grievances, shall nor be infringed.
ARTICLE THE FIFTH.
A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the People, being the
best security of a free Scare, the right of the People to keep and bear
arms, shall not be infringed, but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing
arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person
ARTICLE THE FOURTEENTH.
No State shall infringe the right of trial by Jury in criminal cases, nor
the rights of conscience, nor the freedom of speech, or of the press.
Teste,
JOHN BECKLEY, CLERK
In Senate, August 25, 1789
Read and ordered to be printed for the
consideration of the Senate.
SOURCE OF INFORMATION:: Creating the Bill of Rights, The Documentary Record
from the First Federal Congress, Edited by Helen E. Veit, Kenneth R.
Bowling, Charlene Bangs Bickford, The John Hopkins University Press,
Baltimore and London, 1991, pp 37-41
====================================================
and as early as 1898 there was recogonition that the lauguage of the 14th
Amendment could limits the states in areas of religion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1898
THE GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF CONSTITUTIONAL LAW IN THE UNITED STATES
SECTION L-- Religious Liberty
The Constitution -- The Constitution as originally adopted declared
that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any
office or public trust under tile United States." By amendment it was
further provided that "Congress shall make no law respecting an
Establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," Both
these provisions, it; will be seen are limitations upon the powers of
Congress only. Neither' the original Constitution nor any of the early
amendments undertook to protect the religions. liberty of the people of
the States against the action of their respective state governments. ***The
fourteenth- amendment is perhaps; broad enough to give some securities if
they should be needful.***(emphasis added)
[SNIP]
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: THE GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF CONSTITUTIONAL LAW IN THE
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, By Thomas M. Cooley, LL.D., Third Edition
By Andrew C. McLaughlin, A.M., L.L B. [Professor of American History,
University of Michigan] Little, Brown, and Company 1898, pp 224-227)
================================================================
:|
:|>
:|> Or do you wish to eliminate secular schools?
:|
:|I wish for the States to understand and reclaim their constitutional
:|right to address religious issues, a right which even Thomas Jefferson,
:|Mr. "separation of church and state" himself, understood that they had.
LOL, see above!!!!!
:|Again, communities can decide how public schools can best address the
:|religious needs of their children.
Neither communities nor public schools determine, address, acknowledge
religious needs of their students in the public school system. it's not
their job, nor are they permitted to do so by law, nor would the vast
majority of parents want the community or public schools to do such a
thing.
:|> Do you wish to deny American citizens the right to choose their
:|> childrens' religious education?
:|
They have that right and will continue to have that right.
They can do that at home and or in the church of their choice.
Students who attend most public schools do so for approx 1440 hours a year.
There are approx 8760 hours in a year. By far the proper place and
potential to address the religious needs of a child is while away from
school with the parents and/or any religious representatives the parents
might choose.
Public schools are not qualified to perform that function.
:|Don't bother me with strawman rebuttals.
LOL, and of course anything that doesn't agree with your lies and trolling
is straw, right?
:|M. Clark, internet troll and nutcase.
.
|
