| Topic: |
Sociology > Education |
| User: |
"Romanise" |
| Date: |
02 Mar 2006 12:13:06 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Need for a common schooling system |
http://southasia.oneworld.net/article/view/128467/1/1893
Indian society has advanced in corrupt practices in education that one
wonders what Dr.Nilay Ranjan's article advocates.
I quotes bits from the article
"There should be a national system of public education so that the
overwhelming majority of people do not feel the need for special or
private schools.
The structure of education arrangement should be in the nature of
Common School System (CSS) framework based on the Neighborhood School
concept as enunciated by the Kothari Commission. Private schools should
be brought under the CSS framework.
Provisions of the bill should preclude possibilities of privatization
and commercialization of education."
and ask that if private schools are in no way burden to government
money collected through taxes why anyone would want to put them under
the control of one or another kind of bureaucrat?
Indian education can begin to clean up only if british made law that
forces an engineer, doctor want-to-be student to sit at
entrance,qualifying examination only if a headmaster of a government
recognised school allows him to.
Neighbourhood Schools can only spring up on scrapping the british law
that british themselves have scrapped in their country.
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| User: "Herman Rubin" |
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| Title: Re: Need for a common schooling system |
03 Mar 2006 08:08:01 PM |
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In article <1141279986.518276.138640@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Romanise <joshidm@gmail.com> wrote:
http://southasia.oneworld.net/article/view/128467/1/1893
Indian society has advanced in corrupt practices in education that one
wonders what Dr.Nilay Ranjan's article advocates.
I quotes bits from the article
"There should be a national system of public education so that the
overwhelming majority of people do not feel the need for special or
private schools.
This is reasonable only if that system is based on maximizing
learning for the individual. If not, at least a majority will
be getting a poor education no matter how they feel. They may
well think that the weak schooling they are getting is good,
but that does not make it so.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
.
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| User: "Romanise" |
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| Title: Re: Need for a common schooling system |
04 Mar 2006 12:44:59 AM |
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Romanise <joshidm@gmail.com> wrote:
http://southasia.oneworld.net/article/view/128467/1/1893
Indian society has advanced in corrupt practices in education that one
wonders what Dr.Nilay Ranjan's article advocates.
I quotes bits from the article
"There should be a national system of public education so that the
overwhelming majority of people do not feel the need for special or
private schools.
Herman Rubin wrote:
This is reasonable only if that system is based on maximizing
learning for the individual.
Does such a system work anywhere?
Even with considerable resources spent on school education and it being
made compulsory in UK and USA upto the age of 16 public funded
education is found wanting for the needs (and taste?) of many parents
and private schooling with heavy fees as well as singly or jointly run
homeschooling is allowed.
Private schools are there in India but no option for home schooling and
it is home schooling that will only begin to remove corruption in
schooling upto level of XII as reported on one of the pieces on
southasia.oneworld.net
Please read
http://southasia.oneworld.net/article/view/114625/1/87
If not, at least a majority will
be getting a poor education no matter how they feel. They may
well think that the weak schooling they are getting is good,
but that does not make it so.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Need for a common schooling system |
04 Mar 2006 12:15:54 PM |
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"Romanise" <joshidm@gmail.com> wrote:
Private schools are there in India but no option for home schooling
Does India compel school attendance until adulthood?
"Homeschooling" is education without school attendance. Thus if the
child is not compelled to be in school, homeschooling is an option.
My understanding from a quick web search is that India has compulsory
primary education to age 14 on paper, but in practice unenforced.
Thus any parent can homeschool by ignoring the law, and at the
secondary level can homeschool without legal constraint.
Homeschooling is what you have WITHOUT a common schooling system.
Homeschoolers don't WANT a common schooling system.
lojbab
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Need for a common schooling system |
04 Mar 2006 12:36:29 PM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
"Romanise" <joshidm@gmail.com> wrote:
Private schools are there in India but no option for home schooling
Does India compel school attendance until adulthood?
Education is a state subject. That is, it's up to each state government
to decide whether education is compulsory for children in the state.
"Homeschooling" is education without school attendance. Thus if the
child is not compelled to be in school, homeschooling is an option.
My understanding from a quick web search is that India has compulsory
primary education to age 14 on paper, but in practice unenforced.
Thus any parent can homeschool by ignoring the law, and at the
secondary level can homeschool without legal constraint.
Homeschooling is what you have WITHOUT a common schooling system.
Homeschoolers don't WANT a common schooling system.
I knew a homeschooler who wanted a common schooling system of the kind
he studied in when he was young but he wouldn't dare to send his
children to the kinds of schools available in the neighborhood he could
afford to live in (in the greater San Jose, CA area).
lojbab
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| User: "Romanise" |
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| Title: Re: Need for a common schooling system |
04 Mar 2006 01:13:05 PM |
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"Romanise" <joshidm@gmail.com> wrote:
Private schools are there in India but no option for home schooling
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Does India compel school attendance until adulthood?
ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com wrote:
Education is a state subject. That is, it's up to each state government
to decide whether education is compulsory for children in the state.
It was just before independence I with one or two other boys were sent
out by the teacher to go to homes of boys who would be absent more than
normal. That was in first or second grade. Once four of us carried a
boy to school because his father could not make him come to school and
before catching him we had to find him in shorgum patch on his
frather's little farm as they lived on the farm with house built in it.
Dont know if it made education compulsory upto any level.
Though education is state subject I do not know any state allowing a
student to appear at Higher Secondary Science Stream examination
without student being certified by Headmaster as being enrolled
throught in a Government recognised school.
I believe no state imposes any fine or imprisionment for any parent not
sending his child to school at any age. There are no state officials
going around whose child goes to school and whose do not.
Migrant workers children as a rule have no literacy imparting
facilities whatsoever be they in big cities like in Mumbai. Older
children will care for younger siblings while mother and father go to
work. Most of these families live on road next compound walls of this
or that establishment some of them being schools, colleges,
universities, hospitals.
"Homeschooling" is education without school attendance. Thus if the
child is not compelled to be in school, homeschooling is an option.
My understanding from a quick web search is that India has compulsory
primary education to age 14 on paper, but in practice unenforced.
Thus any parent can homeschool by ignoring the law, and at the
secondary level can homeschool without legal constraint.
Parents will begin to homeschool, mostly as a cooperative venture,
their children if Government allows so homeschooled children to sit at
engineering and medical entrance examinations.
Corruption in school education comes into full force at XI and XII
level. At that level many children will get out of schools where
Science and Mathematics teachers resort to crooked practices and join
tuition classes, if allowed by the law.
Homeschooling is what you have WITHOUT a common schooling system.
Homeschoolers don't WANT a common schooling system.
I knew a homeschooler who wanted a common schooling system of the kind
he studied in when he was young but he wouldn't dare to send his
children to the kinds of schools available in the neighborhood he could
afford to live in (in the greater San Jose, CA area).
Have read about an Indian mother from Southern India homeschooling all
her children in USA and the children did top at early age in some of
the national level tests including spelling competitions. It may not be
ruled out that some parents homeschool their children in USA because
they are afraid of physical safety of their children and do not have
sufficient funds to send children in private schools.
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| User: "Romanise" |
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| Title: Re: Need for a common schooling system |
05 Mar 2006 06:40:05 AM |
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Corruption in school education comes into full force at XI and XII
level. At that level many children will get out of schools where
Science and Mathematics teachers resort to crooked practices and join
tuition classes, if allowed by the law.
sf wrote:
I have read about the corruption in Indian education... how does that
affect the high stakes examination process of being admitted to higher
learning such as University or Technical School? Does bribery apply
there too?
Bribery is more likey to happen in State Board Examinations than at
Central Board Examinations. For Engineering and Medical courses first
one appears at Higher Secondary Board examination at Science Stream
having been allowed to sit at this examination by the Headmaster of a
Government Recognised School.
Very wealthy people (some of them could be Eye, Ear, Bones doctors in
private practice) can manage to get hold of question papers for Science
or Mathematics subjects as grades(marks) obtained in them count towards
admissions (English, Hindi, or any local language as well as practicals
tests for Physics and Chemistry one just needs to pass with 35% marks),
but bribing an examiner is easier.
Once one has passed(or in anticipation of passing) Higher Secondary
Certificate examination he can sit at IIT and few other entrance tests
conducted by Central Government agencies. Those who can manipulate
these examinations normally do not need education (like Rahul Gandhi
who was admitted by Harward but his fate there was similar to our SC/ST
students who get into IIT and such at much too much lower grades but
often commit suicide if not leave studies half way).
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| User: "Herman Rubin" |
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| Title: Re: Need for a common schooling system |
05 Mar 2006 03:25:25 PM |
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In article <1141454698.997321.151980@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
Romanise <joshidm@gmail.com> wrote:
Romanise <joshidm@gmail.com> wrote:
http://southasia.oneworld.net/article/view/128467/1/1893
Indian society has advanced in corrupt practices in education that one
wonders what Dr.Nilay Ranjan's article advocates.
I quotes bits from the article
"There should be a national system of public education so that the
overwhelming majority of people do not feel the need for special or
private schools.
Herman Rubin wrote:
This is reasonable only if that system is based on maximizing
learning for the individual.
Does such a system work anywhere?
It depends on how the system is run. Attempting to teach all
the same can only achieve atrocious results if the lowest level
is the one being taught.
Even with considerable resources spent on school education and it being
made compulsory in UK and USA upto the age of 16 public funded
education is found wanting for the needs (and taste?) of many parents
and private schooling with heavy fees as well as singly or jointly run
homeschooling is allowed.
The US educational system was fairly good before the
Depression, and the high schools before the end of WWII.
Children were not all taught the same; while the ability
to individualize was very limited then, children were not
required to go at the same rate in elementary school, and
there were distinct tracks for different types of students
in high school. I know the UK system had different tracks
based on 6th form examinations, and the same was true for
most of Europe.
The variations in ability are immense.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
.
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| User: "Romanise" |
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| Title: Re: Need for a common schooling system |
06 Mar 2006 06:26:36 AM |
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Romanise <joshidm@gmail.com> wrote:
http://southasia.oneworld.net/article/view/128467/1/1893
Indian society has advanced in corrupt practices in education that one
wonders what Dr.Nilay Ranjan's article advocates.
I quotee bits from the article
"There should be a national system of public education so that the
overwhelming majority of people do not feel the need for special or
private schools.
Herman Rubin wrote:
This is reasonable only if that system is based on maximizing
learning for the individual.
Romanise <joshidm@gmail.com> wrote:
Does such a system work anywhere?
Herman Rubin wrote:
It depends on how the system is run. Attempting to teach all
the same can only achieve atrocious results if the lowest level
is the one being taught.
Even with considerable resources spent on school education and it being
made compulsory in UK and USA upto the age of 16 public funded
education is found wanting for the needs (and taste?) of many parents
and private schooling with heavy fees as well as singly or jointly run
homeschooling is allowed.
The US educational system was fairly good before the
Depression, and the high schools before the end of WWII.
Children were not all taught the same; while the ability
to individualize was very limited then, children were not
required to go at the same rate in elementary school, and
there were distinct tracks for different types of students
in high school. I know the UK system had different tracks
based on 6th form examinations, and the same was true for
most of Europe.
It was fourty years back. I was a roomer in house of a highly educated
couple who were trying to show themselves as kind of socialists and
were sending their only daughter in public funded neighbourhood school.
One day the mother a Physician doing advanced research burst into my
room declaring it is impossible to send Sylvia anymore to the wretched
school. They could always afford to send their daughter to most
expensive school in city. It was a large city in East.
American school troubles are largely because of parents or lack of
them.
Indian school problems too are because of parents not willing to fight
the system but they are largely because of a bad british time law.
The variations in ability are immense.
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| User: "Mike Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Need for a common schooling system |
11 Mar 2006 04:24:07 AM |
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"Romanise" <joshidm@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141647996.863171.132450@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Indian school problems too are because of parents not willing to fight
the system but they are largely because of a bad british time law.
If the law was passed in "British time" then the Indians have had over half
a century in which to alter it if they wanted to. Why haven't they?
Certainly Britain's _own_ school system had undergone all sorts of changes
since 1947.
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough, England
It is so stupid of modern civilisation to have given up believing in the
Devil, when he is its only explanation.
Ronald Knox.
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| User: "PratapTambay" |
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| Title: Re: Need for a common schooling system |
11 Mar 2006 05:54:00 AM |
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Because upper caste Indians throughout Indian history have sought to
monopolise learning and seek to preserve and leverage that as a
competitive advantage against others. Since they were able to educate
themselves without much problem, they did not enable the creation of
common schooling system which would liberate lower caste Indians from
their chains.
This hegemonistic tendency of upper caste Indians is now going global.
Mike Stone wrote:
"Romanise" <joshidm@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141647996.863171.132450@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Indian school problems too are because of parents not willing to fight
the system but they are largely because of a bad british time law.
If the law was passed in "British time" then the Indians have had over half
a century in which to alter it if they wanted to. Why haven't they?
Certainly Britain's _own_ school system had undergone all sorts of changes
since 1947.
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough, England
It is so stupid of modern civilisation to have given up believing in the
Devil, when he is its only explanation.
Ronald Knox.
.
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| User: "sf" |
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| Title: Re: Need for a common schooling system |
04 Mar 2006 10:13:47 AM |
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On 3 Mar 2006 22:44:59 -0800, Romanise wrote:
Romanise <joshidm@gmail.com> wrote:
http://southasia.oneworld.net/article/view/128467/1/1893
Indian society has advanced in corrupt practices in education that one
wonders what Dr.Nilay Ranjan's article advocates.
<snip>
Herman Rubin wrote:
This is reasonable only if that system is based on maximizing
learning for the individual.
Does such a system work anywhere?
Even with considerable resources spent on school education and it being
made compulsory in UK and USA upto the age of 16 public funded
education is found wanting for the needs (and taste?) of many parents
and private schooling with heavy fees as well as singly or jointly run
homeschooling is allowed.
Private schools are there in India but no option for home schooling and
it is home schooling that will only begin to remove corruption in
schooling upto level of XII as reported on one of the pieces on
southasia.oneworld.net
Please read
http://southasia.oneworld.net/article/view/114625/1/87
Yet when all is said and done, jobs will be outsourced to India or we
will bring in Indian Engineers because we don't have enough to fill
the places they occupy. Of course, our graduates demand a higher
salary than the Indian engineers are willing to accept, but that
elephant in the room is being completely ignored.
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